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Thread: Who ownes the tune?

  1. #1
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    Who ownes the tune?

    I've been reading the the different threads about "custom tunes" and "dyno tunes" and I have a simple question:

    Who ownes the tune?

    Before you make a quick reply, think about it. On one hand you can buy a "canned" tune from someone and pay $300 and plug a chip in or download it to your car with a Predator or XCal2. But do you own what you installed in your car?

    On the other hand, you pay $300+ for a dyno session. Does the man who ran the dyno and dialed your car in or the person who paid for it to be done? When you're done with the dyno session and you have it stored in your Predator or XCal2, can you make every change in the world and put it on your Pro Racer or are you stuck with whatever the dyno operator put on your car?

    What do you think and why?

  2. #2
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    Your background as a software author is showing.
    2003 300A Black Mercury Marauder 4334 of 7839
    Trilogy #150 installed by Carfixer & Tallboy 4/21/2007
    (brute's garage)


  3. #3
    Mad4Macs Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by BruteForce
    Your background as a software author is showing.
    At least he doesn't sell underwear

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad4Macs
    At least he doesn't sell underwear
    Or have an avatar of Mr Bean in his! nuts!
    2003A Mercury Marauder. Sold it, miss it.

    USMC 06-10-96 to 06-21-06. AH-1W and UH-1N!!!! OORAH!!

  5. #5
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    Very good question, John, a real (and very legal) brain twister. Bravo!

    IMHO, it's "Intellictual Property".

    Like you imagine a really cool 7-UP commercial, and send that to 7-Up advertising executives, but they reply "sorry, it's been thought of", and next week, you're watching your imagination on TV...Right? Happens every day.

    But, now you're on a dyno, with XXXX "Master tuner John Doe" behind the wheel of your MM. He completes a pull, you see X RWHP, and X RWTQ, before he applies his tuning skill. He suggests X changes and you agree. He programs those changes, and completes another pull. You both agree it's sweet, and the final program is burned to your chip, or, your HHP.

    Once it's burned into your history and you pay the tuner his "rate", it's your tune. You own it...IMHO.

    Ummm...Just starting to think on this. Y'all among us who are lawyers, check in, please?
    Last edited by SergntMac; 09-20-2005 at 09:06 PM.

  6. #6
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    I consider the tune "a work for higher" legaly meaning I paid for the service of getting the "tune" and therefore I own it and can modify it at will.
    Steven

    2004 Marauder Black, loaded
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    Lidio tune
    2004 Suburban Dark Charcoal
    1970 W-30 442 convertible twilight Blue

  7. #7
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    Bored John?

    © HwyCruiser™, 2005
    Last edited by HwyCruiser; 09-20-2005 at 09:33 PM.
    Currently Marauderless but looking

  8. #8
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    Not bored... (nice JD!)

    I'm just getting ready to make the appointment for my dyno session and yes, as a software engineer, I wanted to see what everyone thought before I also weigh in.

    Enough talk about bad weather. Let's really get into the how's and why's of "custom tuning" and whether or not is should be "open source" or "strictly for $$".

    John

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooManyFords
    Not bored... (nice JD!)

    I'm just getting ready to make the appointment for my dyno session and yes, as a software engineer, I wanted to see what everyone thought before I also weigh in.

    Enough talk about bad weather. Let's really get into the how's and why's of "custom tuning" and whether or not is should be "open source" or "strictly for $$".

    John
    My $0.02.... you paid for it .... it's yours to do with it as you see fit.....
    “When you can’t make them see the light, make them feel the heat.”
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    is to kill them, keep on killing them, until you kill the last one, then you kill his pet goat."

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  10. #10
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    The model that seems to have favor in software is value based pricing. IOW, How much money you pay to the "tuner" will determine what you can do with the it. Pay $ and get to flash it and use it. Pay $$$ and you can modify it too. Pay $$$$$ and you can redistribute your changes. I hate value based pricing!

    Unfortunately it seems that copyright owners of things like music and movies would love to move away from ever letting you "own" the work itself at all. In their model they would love to only "rent" you the work while having protection after protection to prevent copying of their work. There has to be a reasonable middle ground where I can own what I want for a reasonable price.

    That said and back to the specific topic of tuning. I think an "open source" tune is a great thing! I don't blame the vendors for charging what they do for a tune. But I want to muck with it after the fact. Having a choice of a known "great" tune and an "okay" one as open source that I could muck with let's the consumer make the choice of what is worth more to them. A large majority just want a plug-n-play solution but there are those of us that are willing to tinker. Odds are I would use both (A concept the music and movie industries can't fathom) meaning I'd be happy to pay for what works.

    Even further afield of tuning: I think automotive companies should make all the software running in their cars "tuner" friendly. Many "tunes" are simply the modification of tables and parameters because the application is a data driven app. How about exposing those parameters to the end user rather than just the local Ford dealers or a "tuner". Some of this has been done (How long do you want your headlights on after key off, should the doors automatically lock/unlock, etc... but a formal way of exposing those parameters and allowing end-users to modify would be a positive move IMO.

  11. #11
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    We own nothing.

    We get to use things.
    Who leaves with more than than they started with?
    Thanks to the tuners, for thier efforts!
    2004 Trilogy #93P 12.2@113 Built and stalled

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Johnson
    Pay $ and get to flash it and use it. Pay $$$ and you can modify it too. Pay $$$$$ and you can redistribute your changes. I hate value based pricing!
    This is not unlike software rights. You pay for single use on one computer; a company pays a corporate licensing fee for multiple computers. The third "option" of modifying the program for redistribution is not an option.

    The tune you "buy" is for your single use. You are paying for the right to use the tune and the expertise of the tuner. Depending on which handheld you have, you can manipulate some parameters - but still for your personal use. When you buy the "Advantage Dealer Custom Tuning Software," you're then able to manipulate everything and by virtue of the purchase, you've paid your licensing fee to SCT and can tune other cars, imparting your expertise and charging accordingly.

  13. #13
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    Once you "own" the tune you should be able to do with it what you please, but at that point any sort of implied warranty is pretty much gone...

    By "do with it what you please" I'm referring to your own personal private use. Personal private use generally dictates you are free to do what you want with something so long as you are not profiting.

    Taking one of the tunes from Lidio or Dennis, changing a few parameters to fit your personal taste, and then trying to re-sell your changed tune would be a violation of their rights as the creators of the original tune. Unless they agree to it, you're basically selling a modified copy of their tune they built from scratch.

    Now, changing a few parameters on your personal car, and even sharing what you did as information to others, shouldn't be a problem. Others who own the tune can be free to make those same changes, but you are not making a profit or reselling their tune with your name on it.

    The only thing I can see that would be a problem is if the tuner didn't want their code reverse engineered or changed or considered their tune proprietary - in that even you may have agreed to not changing the tune at all or examining the code when you purchased the tune.

    And in that case, one must wonder if a tuner COULD call it proprietary. Isn't a tune simply a modification of the existing code from FORD?

    So I think once you have bought the tune you're free to modify it, albeit at your own risk.

    It's lucky for the tuners that car modding hasn't exploded with high tech as far as it could have. Sure things are becoming more technical, but it could be even more.

    Imagine someone writing simple interface software between a laptop and your ODB-II, you rewire a connector to fit on a USB or serial port, and all of a sudden you have access to your computer just like an SCT would give.

    Someone then purchases a tune, and starts sharing the tune file over the Internet. People download the tune for free, use their hacked laptops to install it. Voila', free tune.

    Tunes are just code and the interface to the car's computer is simply electrical pulses - it's surprising this has not yet been compromised...luckily most skilled software hackers that crack software security protection rarely emerge from their basements enough to start tuning their cars. (BTW before the software guys start bashing me keep in mind I'm a systems engineer myself, lol.)
    Trilogy #112 (self installed)

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  14. #14
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    According to the "Basics of tuning" SCT certificaction Book, the 9100 hand held can be returned to stock four times, then has to be sent in for recalibration.
    Someone with the same setup(mods), could sample the said tune, and use "as is", or purchace an existing (used) tuner and have it retuned to thier preferences.
    Besides the licensing costs, SCT has a certificaction requirement as well.
    A Dyno, the training and expense to become an SCT franchise (or other) is all you need!
    Quote Originally Posted by MM03MOK
    This is not unlike software rights. You pay for single use on one computer; a company pays a corporate licensing fee for multiple computers. The third "option" of modifying the program for redistribution is not an option.

    The tune you "buy" is for your single use. You are paying for the right to use the tune and the expertise of the tuner. Depending on which handheld you have, you can manipulate some parameters - but still for your personal use. When you buy the "Advantage Dealer Custom Tuning Software," you're then able to manipulate everything and by virtue of the purchase, you've paid your licensing fee to SCT and can tune other cars, imparting your expertise and charging accordingly.
    2004 Trilogy #93P 12.2@113 Built and stalled

  15. #15
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    I know better.

    I paid Lidio for his experiance and expertise. If I need changes or updates, I know I have the support to do it. I will limit the intrusion into the cars computer to the data logger. (Which BTW, Lidio has helped me with already)

    my.02

    11.98 @ 115 mph
    "Comfort, Class and Hair on Fire Performance."

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