Reinhart Exhaust Installed

[Ross]

After having DR's exhaust sitting at the mechanic's shop for over a month, I finally found time to get over and get it installed last weekend. Me and a pro mechanic, nice lift and power tools. So far, so good.
The kit looks nice and contains all the little parts that you will need.
The manifolds are polished and look real pretty for people who are into bling bling.
Now for the part that we all knew already--there ain't much room to work in the MM engine compartment. Just getting to some of the mounting nuts on the manifold requires extreme patience and flexibility. If you have large hands (which I don't) you will make up some new words trying to get to everything under there. That's not DR's fault, it's just the way everything is stuffed in the engine compartment. Only got one severe burn on my wrist from a hot cat, so I guess my "injury quotient" isn't too bad!
Took about 4 hours for the two of us to get everything in, lined up right, etc. Fortunately, he only charged me for 2 hours labor. Guess he felt bad about the burn.
Results:
Looks nice.
Sounds a LITTLE more mellow, maybe a BIT louder, but not much. Of course, since I didn't change the mufflers or tips, I wasn't really expecting much of any change in the sound. The little change I got is nice.
Power? First, the disclaimer: I DO NOT have before and after 1/4 mile times or dyno runs, so I have no hard numbers to judge by. Everything that follows is purely IMHO and is subject to my uncalibrated butt-o-meter, which I do not claim is accurate.
I can't say that I feel any difference. I'm frankly surprised at that, because the results that some people were posting before showed between 20 and 30 extra RWHP. That is about 10% gain, which I would expect to be noticeable from the seat of the pants. Especially since I felt a noticeable difference after I installed DR's pulleys, which I suspect only added about 10-12 RWHP, and only cost about $200.00 parts and labor. If I can feel 10-12 in my butt-o-meter, seems like I should be able to feel 20-30, right?
Before you ask, yes, we triple checked all connections, saw that everything lined up properly, was tightened down properly, etc. No codes or anything indicating anything improper.
Overall, I have some reservations about this mod. Over a grand in parts and labor, and no appreciable difference in performance. I know, if I dynoed it before and after, I may have seen some gains on paper. But I was really hoping to see some gains in what I feel in my everyday driving, since that is where the gains really matter to me.
No flame intended here to DR, who has been one of the best innovators and supporters of this site. Just trying to honestly report what I am experiencing.

[2003 MIB]

I'm sorry to hear that you aren't feeling the horses, Ross. I need some education- You changed the manifolds, kept the stock mufflers and tips- what else was swapped?? X-pipe? Did you delete two of the cats? I've not seen a DR exhaust kit and I don't know what comes with it. My first assumption is that your Marauder is "constipated"-Too much data about the increase is out there- there's something missing in the mix...

[duhtroll]

No offense, but I think you need some numbers to back your claim of no increase in performance.

Until then, any results, and even "reservations" should be held in check as they are currently unfounded.

Did you choke off the end by going back from 2.5" to the stock 2"? That could easily hamper performance.

I have pre-exhaust dynos of my MM, and I have the DR exhaust sitting in my garage also waiting to be installed. It should be installed in the next few days, as soon as John tells me it's OK.

I am going straight thru 2.5" with some 18" Magnaflows. I am planning on seeing a minimum of 25 RWHP when finished, and I will dyno it to be sure.

Butt-o-meters aren't accurate unless you have instant feedback. It's tough for your ass to remember what happened 10 minutes ago, much less 4 hours. :D

Thanks,
-A

[duhtroll]

Dan, the DR exhaust cuts the cats from 4 stock to 2 hi-flow, and has custom x-pipe and ceramic coated cobra manifolds. It gets best results when the tail isn't bottlenecked back down to 2".

-A

[TAF]

Ross,

Did you make new 2 1/2" extensions from the end of the X-pipe to get back to your stock mufflers? Or did you cut the 2" behind the stock H-pipe and re-use those?

Doing the latter will choke down your expected gains that you could be receiving.

EDIT: I see my buddy Andrew is much faster on the keyboards....

[woaface]

Hehehehehehe. Sounds like a sweet deal though:up: :up: :up:

[2003 MIB]

No offense, but I think you need some numbers to back your claim of no increase in performance. Until then, any results, and even "reservations" should be held in check as they are currently unfounded.

-A

Wait a second, Drew!!- I thought ol' Ross did a pretty good job of explaining his personal experience based on the butt-o-meter. The reservations are founded by someone we know to be a honest man who telling us what he felt or didn't feel. The rest of you post is A-1 spot-on about what might be the restriction and the lack of SOTP feeling. That's whay Ross really posted- to find out what we think might be wrong. Without explaining his problem- we can't help him. Alright, I'll take off my Daddy hat now...

[Ross]

I used the parts that came with the kit. There are two "adapters" or some kind of fittings in the kit, one for each pipe. You attach the fittings behind the new X pipe to the pipes which go into the mufflers. Therefore, I didn't "downsize" anything, I used everything that was in the kit.
Again, I admit that I have no hard performance numbers, and like I was careful to say, a dyno might show a difference. I'm just surprised that I'm not feeling something more.

[2003 MIB]

There ya go, Ross!!- Back to muffler shop to let the ponies run!!

[TAF]

I used the parts that came with the kit. There are two "adapters" or some kind of fittings in the kit, one for each pipe. You attach the fittings behind the new X pipe to the pipes which go into the mufflers. Therefore, I didn't "downsize" anything, I used everything that was in the kit.

That must be new, cause everyone's that I've seen have had to get an exhaust shop to fit from the x back to the mufflers. This is because the X-pipe is actually too short (for a Mustang) and we have a longer "throw" to get back to our mufflers... :confused:

[Ross]

That's right, Todd. There is not enough pipe to reach from the X pipe to the mufflers. You have to cut some of the old pipe to fit inside the fitting and reach back to the mufflers. The old pipe is the perfect size to fit in the fittings supplied, so even if you went to a muffler shop, and didn't cut the old pipe yourself, the muffler shop would have to use the same diameter pipe. Unless, of course, they threw away the supplied fittings and used new ones of their own. Even if they did that, larger pipe wouldn't fit inside the muffler intakes.

[TAF]

That's right, Todd. There is not enough pipe to reach from the X pipe to the mufflers. You have to cut some of the old pipe to fit inside the fitting and reach back to the mufflers. The old pipe is the perfect size to fit in the fittings supplied, so even if you went to a muffler shop, and didn't cut the old pipe yourself, the muffler shop would have to use the same diameter pipe. Unless, of course, they threw away the supplied fittings and used new ones of their own. Even if they did that, larger pipe wouldn't fit inside the muffler intakes.
See...I think the problem is STILL the "choke-down" you have to do to fit the 2" opening on the OEM mufflers...get you some 18" Magnaflows (polished/stainless steel, of course) with the 2 1/2" openings front and 2 1/4" outlet for your OEM tailpipes. You'll LOVE the sound, and I think you'll be happier with the SOTP feel.

[Ross]

Yep, I know that by going to a more open muffler and maybe even tips I could get even better breathing. I was just hoping for a little more perceived oomph with the kit as it is.

[2003 MIB]

I would concur with Todd. I run the 18" Magnaflows and love them. I'm not looking to start a fight but it would appear that with the exception of the manifolds vs. headers- the Kooks kit and Reihart kit are comprised of the same basic components. My setup is 2.25 throughout and there was a major SOTP kick. It's the neckdown that's choking you....

[TAF]

Yep, I know that by going to a more open muffler and maybe even tips I could get even better breathing. I was just hoping for a little more perceived oomph with the kit as it is.
No need to do the tips Ross...they have NOTHING to do with "performance gains"...they just change the sound (too much "rattle" for my taste, though) so I run the OEM tips.

But, do look into the Magnaflows Ross...you'll be very happy with those added...and then you're done.

[stevengerard]

Also consider that much of that gain may be at a higher range. Don't know enough about the physics of this but do know that I do mods to feel it. I just changed my mufflers on the 442 - only the mufflers - to flowmasters and I have a much better sounding car but no increase in SOTP from a stop. What I did notice was a good gain from 20 mph on, so I was happy. As was explained to me, since I kept the smaller pipes it won't help as much down low as it will mid range. Maybe that's what you are feeling.

[2003 MIB]

Yep, I know that by going to a more open muffler and maybe even tips I could get even better breathing. I was just hoping for a little more perceived oomph with the kit as it is.

You're more than welcome to come north and drive/listen to the 18" Magnaflows- Open invitation.
If you hit us on a Saturday cruise night- There Marauders with 14" Maganaflows and Flowmaster 40 series too... I don't know if they'll let you drive but they'll let ya listen.

[Ross]

Maybe I need to look into the Magnaflows. I know a lot of people have them and love them. I like a nice sound from the car, I'm just a little concerned about getting more noise on the highway than I want. But if the neck down is really the heart of this thing, maybe I need to bite the bullet and just add them. I can always keep the old ones and put them back if I don't like the sound of the Magnaflows. Todd, call me and let me hear the sound of your car over the phone! :lol:

[2003 MIB]

Also consider that much of that gain may be at a higher range. Don't know enough about the physics of this but do know that I do mods to feel it. I just changed my mufflers on the 442 - only the mufflers - to flowmasters and I have a much better sounding car but no increase in SOTP from a stop. What I did notice was a good gain from 20 mph on, so I was happy. As was explained to me, since I kept the smaller pipes it won't help as much down low as it will mid range. Maybe that's what you are feeling.

I THINK that's backwards for the MM based some things I read on this. 2.25 was recommended for a N/A car because I certain amount of back pressure makes the DOHC lose less torque...Of course, torque isn't really much of a problem with your Olds, is it? :beer:

[Ross]

Also consider that much of that gain may be at a higher range. Don't know enough about the physics of this but do know that I do mods to feel it. I just changed my mufflers on the 442 - only the mufflers - to flowmasters and I have a much better sounding car but no increase in SOTP from a stop. What I did notice was a good gain from 20 mph on, so I was happy. As was explained to me, since I kept the smaller pipes it won't help as much down low as it will mid range. Maybe that's what you are feeling.

Good point, Steven. I seem to remember that the results that some people posted said that most of their gains were up high. I wasn't really expecting tire smoking starts, although all of us are looking for that elusive low end increase in HP and TQ.

[Ross]

OK, I'm actually calling a muffler shop now about Magnaflows. Question:

How far "upstream" do you have to go with the larger pipes? If you go to DR's fittings, they fit the OEM size pipes (2"?). If the Magnaflows are 2 1/2", won't there still be a restriction ahead of the new mufflers?

[TAF]

Todd, call me and let me hear the sound of your car over the phone! :lol:
You laugh...and maybe have seen the Porsche commercial with the guy in his driveway doing it....but Tom (marauderman) and I had Marty on the cell phone doing this in a parking lot over a year and a half ago...with Tom's car (which has my much preferred shorty header set-up)

I think some of the folks from Porsche N.A. (headquartered in Atlanta) saw us and stole the idea for the commercial....

[TAF]

Tell them you want mandrel bent 2 1/2 from the X-pipe back to the Magnaflows. I forget the part number on the correct mufflers...they are here somewhere in a thread.

[martyo]

I think some of the folks from Porsche N.A. (headquartered in Atlanta) saw us and stole the idea for the commercial....

Yep, I am still getting royalty checks for this....

[Marauderman]

You laugh...and maybe have seen the Porsche commercial with the guy in his driveway doing it....but Tom (marauderman) and I had Marty on the cell phone doing this in a parking lot over a year and a half ago...with Tom's car (which has my much preferred shorty header set-up)

I think some of the folks from Porsche N.A. (headquartered in Atlanta) saw us and stole the idea for the commercial....
Oh yeah--that was cool wasn''t it---and since then I've replaced my OEM mufflers with the 18" Magnaflows and ---there is no doubt when asked--
" Can you here me now" is mentioned---cause now --You really should hear me now!!!--I just love it--the car now has the sound to go with the bite--Ouch!! :beer:

[woaface]

I think some of the folks from Porsche N.A. (headquartered in Atlanta) saw us and stole the idea for the commercial....
"Uh huh...sweet right? No, it does NOT have a HEMI"

I do like that commercial, just another one that the the Marauder didn't get.

[Zack]

Lose the stock mufflers.
You only gain 20-30 at the wheels on a supercharged car as compared to it having stock exhaust.
I gained about 17hp with the exhaust when my car was N/A

[CRUZTAKER]

Lose the stock mufflers.
You only gain 20-30 at the wheels on a supercharged car as compared to it having stock exhaust.
I gained about 17hp with the exhaust when my car was N/A
Yup, lose the mufflers, AND the Cats.....I am not quite understanding why you chose to do manifolds only in the first place? It's like gluing 4 same size straws to one straw, and expecting to get more milkshake!!! :lol:

I remember you doing your homework here, I thought you had KOOKed up something something good. Actually I am really surprised Dennis wasn't able to talk you into the entire kit.

[Ross]

Yup, lose the mufflers, AND the Cats.....I am not quite understanding why you chose to do manifolds only in the first place? It's like gluing 4 same size straws to one straw, and expecting to get more milkshake!!! :lol:

I remember you doing your homework here, I thought you had KOOKed up something something good. Actually I am really surprised Dennis wasn't able to talk you into the entire kit.


NOOOOOOO, Barry! I did buy the entire Reinhart kit! Manifolds, pipes, new cats. The only thing I didn't change was the mufflers and tips. I really wanted the Kook's setup, but the added price (both parts and more hours of labor) just didn't fit into the budget. Plus, I remember seeing some posts which showed that DR's system compared very favorably with Kook's on the dyno. But since DR will sell the kit with or without the new mufflers, I never got the impression that the new mufflers were necessary to get the added performance. I guess that was my bone headed misunderstanding. Looks like I'll just add the new Magnaflows next month. The mod budget is pretty much depleted for right now.

[CRUZTAKER]

Ohhhh, OK!

Yeah, dump the OEM mufflers and get some 18" magnaflows. The 18" ones are not that loud, I think you will like. The rest of the exhaust is fine, and no need to be concerned with the Megs tips, they only change the pitch in sound.

Good luck man! :up:

[studio460]

Ross:

I'm still not clear on this thread here . . . the factory pipe is 2.25" from the H-pipe to the mufflers. You bought the DR Cobra manifold kit. Do you have the OLD 2.25" stock pipe from the X-pipe to the mufflers, or do you have NEW 2.5" pipe from the X-pipe to the mufflers? I didn't think freer-flowing mufflers alone would do much--why is everyone suggesting mufflers? From looking at the dyno sheets (of all suppliers) the headers really don't kick in until higher in the RPMs, at which point, may be harder to "feel." I'm still debating myself over Kooks, SVOs, Cobras . . . 'Course, then again, I AM planning to get supercharged soon, so to me, it'll be worth it to have the free-flowing exhaust to complement the freer-flowing forced induction.

[TAF]

Shooter, check your PMs.

[Ross]

Shooter, I didn't measure the pipes, so I don't know what diameter they are. I used everything in the kit from the manifolds back to the X pipes. After the X pipes, the kit contains 2 fittings (one for each pipe). You attach the fittings behind the X pipe, then there is a gap from the fittings back to the mufflers. You have to cut the stock pipe to get a proper length of pipe to fill that space from the fittings back to the muffler. That's why I was confused about people asking about using a bigger pipe behind the X pipe. If you use the fittings in the kit, you can't use a bigger pipe. You have to use what fits, and that means OEM size. I guess when I get my Magnaflows, I will have the shop take off the fittings, and attach larger pipe behind the X pipes.

[CRUZTAKER]

I see your dilemma now....I thought all these kits were the same.

With the KOOKS kit, you get everything replaced, header, cats, x-pipe, and the whole thing is 2.5". If you buy the 18" magnaflows to complete the kit, they kit/bolt directly to the x-pipe, there is no need to add pieces to make it work. It's like a big tinker toy that is completely bolt together with no special tools. It's an exhaust installers dream.

The only welds are where the magnaflows connect to the rest of the exiting OEM 2.25" pipe, and at that point in the straw, size no longer matters.

We did however perform 2 extra welds on mine, and that was to add hangers to the (tops) of the magnaflows.

[PhkinQk]

Since I had my DR exhaust installed last week, other than needing the Magnaflows, I've noticed an intermittent vibration. It's gets worse at higher speeds 80-120. Anyone experience anything like this? Could it be a dampener issue? I had it leak tested, checked out....

Makes sense, I'm sold on the Magnaflows.....If anyone has the part number for the Magnaflows, their site seems to not talk about 2 1/2 down to 2 1/4 single in out...........

[merc]

Since I had my DR exhaust installed last week, other than needing the Magnaflows, I've noticed an intermittent vibration. It's gets worse at higher speeds 80-120. Anyone experience anything like this? Could it be a dampener issue? I had it leak tested, checked out....

Makes sense, I'm sold on the Magnaflows.....If anyone has the part number for the Magnaflows, their site seems to not talk about 2 1/2 down to 2 1/4 single in out...........

If you are having a leak on the manifolds it could be because the exhaust porting is different on the Cobra Manifold (Large D Shape) in comparison to the smaller stock manifold gasket you recycled. I was going to ask Dennis about this issue myself. This week I was comparing both manifolds and discovered that the O3- cobra manifold uses this gasket number 2C5Z-9448-AA, which is different from the 01- cobra gasket # F80Z-9448-AD. The most out standing difference is the shape of the gasket. The 01- cobra is very similar to the Marauder and uses the oval shape with slightly smaller circumference. On the other hand the 03-cobra manifold using the Marauder stock gasket reduces the size of the exhaust port because the gasket ports are physically smaller. By design both gaskets use an offset bolt pattern and a raised inter ring to match the respective manifold size. The question becomes should you replace your gasket when installing the Cobra manifolds or is this non-issue? Currently my car leaks from both sides of the exhaust and I am removing the manifolds and replacing the gaskets with 03-Cobra gaskets to silence the leaks hopefully. :bandit:

Discard the above information I relayed incorrect facts :censor: about the manifold size and intake diameter.

[HwyCruiser]

See this thread for dyno'ed results on DR's Cobra exhaust, UDPs and tune...

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10643

The proof's in the pudding!

I'm still going after the Magnaflows though...

- JD

[duhtroll]

And it should be noted that as far as installation goes, DR's is much easier. John has Kook's, and while there many be a few horsies more in the results, from what we can see after "test fitting" things tonight, my DR install will be MUCH quicker and easier.

And the reason you don't get all the pipe with it? So it can fit in your trunk!

I put everything and the Magnaflows in my trunk (and the trunk closed) and hauled it over to John's lift. Were it in one piece I couldn't have done that.

(Actually I think it's because DR makes the one piece with cats, x-pipe and leaves the rest to the installer since he doesn't know which diameter pipe they would want, stock 2.25" for use with stock mufflers, or 2.5" to go with Magnaflows or some other brand.)

Either way, I am really looking forward to my big new "don't F*** with me" sound.

Thanks,
-A

[studio460]

You have to cut the stock pipe to get a proper length of pipe to fill that space from the fittings back to the muffler. That's why I was confused about people asking about using a bigger pipe behind the X pipe. If you use the fittings in the kit, you can't use a bigger pipe. You have to use what fits, and that means OEM size. I guess when I get my Magnaflows, I will have the shop take off the fittings, and attach larger pipe behind the X pipes.
AHA! I gotcha now, Ross. You still have the stock 2.25" pipe from the X-pipe to the mufflers. And, yes, that's what many here have done--they installed the DR Cobra kit, then took it to a muffler shop and had 2.5" pipe layed in from the X-pipe back to 2.5" inlet/outlet mufflers (pick your favorite brand/sound) out to delete tips.

[PhkinQk]

If my manafolds are leaking I can't tell and the dealer ship says they are not. But as I told them the vibration is under higher speeds. Somtimes it's very disconserting, it's not a leak sound (though it could be a leak) it's a hard vibration........but with an exhaust leak won't you hear a lot of backfires and pops?


If you are having a leak on the manifolds

[CRUZTAKER]

PhkinQK:
Just for grins, crawl under the rear of the car and check the clearance where the exhaust tail pipe crosses over the sway bar. Is there any indication that either pipe has touched the swaybar at one point in time or another?

I am unfamiliar with the DR system, but perhaps once you have checked that rear cross over are I mention, you may want to inspect the entire system front to back (including hangers) to see if there is any possibility of pieces touching/rubbing against components in or on the car underbody.

[Marauderjack]

Don't discard the OEM vibration damper weights.....they will remove harmonics from above idle through all of the vibration harmonic points!!! :up:

I had a CV that I put duals on and had only the one damper from the single exhaust.....Rattled like a can full of rocks!!! :confused: Found another damper in the junk yard and all was well!! :bounce:

This is one reason I am not in favor of after market mufflers on the MM....The dampers are welded in place...I think?? On the front end of the OEM mufflers?? :o

Marauderjack :up:

[CRUZTAKER]

This is one reason I am not in favor of after market mufflers on the MM....The dampers are welded in place...I think?? On the front end of the OEM mufflers?? :o

Marauderjack :up:
That's why the good folks at C&M fabricated two new attachments on my magnaflows.

[PhkinQk]

Thanks for the thoughts Barry.....but the DR system didn't replace anything from the end of the old H pipe back....the vibrations are all up front, near where all is connected..............Ugg, lol.




PhkinQK:
Just for grins, crawl under the rear of the car and check the clearance where the exhaust tail pipe crosses over the sway bar. Is there any indication that either pipe has touched the swaybar at one point in time or another?

I am unfamiliar with the DR system, but perhaps once you have checked that rear cross over are I mention, you may want to inspect the entire system front to back (including hangers) to see if there is any possibility of pieces touching/rubbing against components in or on the car underbody.

[Haggis]

Don't discard the OEM vibration damper weights.....they will remove harmonics from above idle through all of the vibration harmonic points!!! :up:

I had a CV that I put duals on and had only the one damper from the single exhaust.....Rattled like a can full of rocks!!! :confused: Found another damper in the junk yard and all was well!! :bounce:

This is one reason I am not in favor of after market mufflers on the MM....The dampers are welded in place...I think?? On the front end of the OEM mufflers?? :o

Marauderjack :up:


I have the 18" Magnaflows (#14356) attached to Dennis' exhaust with a 2.5" pipe from X-pipe to mufflers. No problems and no vibrations.