Marauder vs firebird

[Black Merc]

I was reading about this race and was wondering if marauder owner was a member of this board? :banana2: http://www.ls2.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56338

[duhtroll]

Sounds like Zack from the RWHP total, (that # sticks in my head) but I am only guessing. Zack, that you?

Didn't think he had Kook's tho'.

-A

[MI2QWK4U]

I thought Zack had Dennis's exhaust setup, could be wrong though.

[duhtroll]

The RWHP # and "best time quoted" match Zack's time slip entry, so that's why he sprung to mind. I don't want to get in trouble, so I'll just say it's a shot in the dark.

-A

[Zack]

Yes, that is my buddy who posted that.
Im gonna have to call him tomorrow and question his 'wording' of how he killed the Marauder. We raced to 80mph and I was at his back bumper the whole time.
His LS1 has fully ported heads, bigger valves, an aggressive cam, Hooker long tubes and SLP Exhaust.
His car put down 405rwhp and 385 torque through an automatic. Numbers like that should net an F-Body high 11's with traction.
And yes, I have Kook's Headers. Funny reading the post though, seemed like everyone was more impressed that there are Marauders that fast running around, heh?

[duhtroll]

The thought that ran through my head at the time was "man, I wish he had gotten some traction so he could smoke that cocky so-and-so. THEN we'll see how the discussion goes!"

:D

-A

[BillyGman]

Well since we're talking about a STREET RACE here, and I'm not at all certain as to what's allowed for us to discuss about STREET racing, and what isn't, I'll try to be as non-descriptive as possible. It seems that listing the MPH at which you're actually traveling on the street during such races is NOT well received here by certain members even though street races can still be posted and accepted in this forum.

But I have just raced a guy at work who has a 98 LS-1 engine equipped Camaro SS, which has ported LS-1 Air Flow Research cyclinder heads, a ported intake manifold, and a bigger than stock camshaft, along w/Kooks headers, and Flowmaster mufflers. His car has a stock 6 speed manual shift transmission. He showed me his Dyno chart. He's making 415 HP to the wheels, and his best ET at the track has been 12.4 seconds. I think it was Steve (aka TTA) that was telling me that the Firebirds of the past 6 years also have the LS-1 engine just like the Camaro SS does. I was surprised to hear that since I previously didn't think that was the case, but Steve outta know.

Since I haven't taken my car to the track yet AFTER installing the Trilogy Supercharger kit, I'm not sure where in the 12's my car will be. I only know that it will be in the 12's. I have the Nitto P305 drag radials too. This guy who owns this modified LS-1 equipped Camaro that I've just described works where I do, and he just found out that I have a Marauder, and that it's Supercharged. And he said that he wouldn't even waste his gasoline against a Marauder weather it was S/Ced or not, because he knows he would smoke all of them.

So I told him to prove it. We raced three times during lunch time (3:30 am is lunch time), and I beat him all three times. Him and his friends all went back to work shocked and amazed after the lunch break. He shook my hand, and told me that he's amazed at how fast my car is, and that I'd beat every stock Corvette on the road since his car does.

This post is NOT to neccessarily challenge Zack in anyway, but merely to state that LS-1 Camaros aren't anything to worry about against a S/Ced Marauder, so I don't think that the Firebirds should be either. Especially if they're stock. Maybe these two stories are different because of the traction issues. Both my car and the Camaro that I raced hooked up good, and I had him beat from off the line, and gained on him through the entire race during all three runs. 2 out of three of them, I beat him by two car lengths, and the last one I beat him by one full car length.

The coincidental thing is that just like that Camaro that Zack raced, this one had one passenger in it as well, and was similarly modified according to Zack's desciption. The one difference is that the one I raced has a 6 speed standard shift transmission, which if anything should make it faster than a four speed automatic. This guy has been racing for many years too. Both of us are running Nitto radials, but he has the P295's vs. my P305's. So mine are actually Drag radials and his aren't.

The funny thing was how two of this guy's friends were talking junk about Marauders, and who also included my Marauder in all of that trash talk, and not only did this camaro SS owner say that his car would jump right by my car, but his friend said that his N/A 71 402 equipped Chevelle would also beat my Marauder, or any Marauder. And after these three races that proved my MM would beat that modified Camaro consistently despite the heavier weight, his friends, including that Chevelle owner changed their tune completely, and had nothing but good things to say about my car.

[the fat bastid]

hey man, don't you know the ls1 engine was touched by the hand of god himself?

[BillyGman]

hey man, don't you know the ls1 engine was touched by the hand of god himself?Hey, I have nothing but good things to say about the LS-1 engine although I've never owned a car that had one. It makes really good power, and the cylinder heads are a superior design among small block V8 engines. That's why I believe it's quite a feat for such a heavy car like the Marauder is to be out accelerating a car such as the Camaro that has the LS-1 engine under the hood. Especially since the Camaro also has a 6 speed standard transmission. These cars are no slouches even though I don't care for their body stlye. The Marauder looks waaay better.

[TripleTransAm]

This post is NOT to neccessarily challenge Zack in anyway, but merely to state that LS-1 Camaros aren't anything to worry about against a S/Ced Marauder, so I don't think that the Firebirds should be either. Especially if they're stock. Maybe these two stories are different because of the traction issues.
...

The one difference is that the one I raced has a 6 speed standard shift transmission, which if anything should make it faster than a four speed automatic.


The thing to keep in mind is that once you get into that kind of modified territory, it's really tough to generalize. Speaking about Marauders, from what we've seen here, an S/C Marauder can put down a 1/4 mile anywhere between low low low 13 seconds and high high 11 seconds, depending on state of tune, traction, track and perhaps to a lesser extent driver skill. So the same can be said about the LS1 F-cars. One guy in our local club with a modified 2002 Camaro Z28 (not SS) regularly pulls only high 12s with more rwhp than what your friend puts out, but he's overcome what the rest of the car is capable of: he's in slicks territory now, and his stock clutch is hurting under the pressure and he's gotta start looking out for a busted rear anytime soon. So, as I've always said all along, a race is a race and no matter what kind of power you've got, it's all about getting it to the ground and getting to the finish line first, that's what constitutes a win, no ifs or buts. However, there's nothing saying the same power in another similar car but set up differently won't perform better. I personally witnessed a stock 1998 Camaro Z28 (again, not SS) pull a 12.9 (automatic, no air filter, descreened MAF, dropped the stock exhaust at the cats) on stock original tires. So I've learned to never say never.

BTW, with the LS1s, it's no longer true that the 6-speeds outperform the autos. In reality, it's now the opposite... the LS1 benefits from a slightly higher stall converter versus the previous LT1's setup, in an attempt to address the LS1's slight sub-1200 RPM torque loss versus the older LT1 in regular street driving. Also, because of the way the LS1 transitions from sub-LT1 torque at those low RPMs to totally blowing away the LT1 above 1500-2000 RPM, it's REALLY tough to properly launch a stock 6-speed LS1. Slightly too low RPM and it's bog city, slightly too high RPM and it's a total smoke show off the line. I have great footage of my car (shot from behind the car at the starting line) blowing the tires off the line on a screwed-up launch, followed by painting the track black halfway through 1st, then more black stripes on the 1-2 shift and halfway to 3rd, then another set of lines on the 2-3 upshift. Nice for posterity and showing off, not good for ETs. :up:

BTW, I haven't checked the other thread but I didn't get the impression that anyone was dissing the Marauder on the other F-site. If anything I got the impression most were giving the Marauder props for putting down some serious competition for the F-car. Not at all anything like those guys you work with.... I really can't stand it when folks talk out of their a$$es when it comes to other cars. Like, how could these guys have possibly known for sure whether your S/C'ed Marauder would be easy meat for their cars or not? Fun trash talk is fun, but why do these folks have to waste everyone's time mouthing off on something they have no real idea about?

[BillyGman]

Some very good points Steve. I hear ya. Thanks for your input buddy. I was hoping that you would weigh-in on this one.

[jstevens]

I would say they sounded pretty impressed Zack. Now quit with the great stories cuz it just makes me want to run out a do a brake torque.

[SHERIFF]

Well since we're talking about a STREET RACE here, and I'm not at all certain as to what's allowed for us to discuss about STREET racing, and what isn't, I'll try to be as non-descriptive as possible. It seems that listing the MPH at which you're actually traveling on the street during such races is NOT well received here by certain members even though street races can still be posted and accepted in this forum.



Who said it was a street race? I think they said, and I quote.... "We were on an old forest preserve road" Maybe it isn't open to the public.

And, by the way, isn't that the same forum who lost 2 or 3 members in a serious street race crash last year?

[MI2QWK4U]

Ok, what did I miss about "street racing"? I see you guys talking about whats allowed? anyone care to fill me in?

[CRUZTAKER]

Good thread gone bad....

[teamrope]

Funny reading the post though, seemed like everyone was more impressed that there are Marauders that fast running around, heh?
That's the feeling I got. You're doing good when you can still get that kind of respect lookin at tail lights. :up:

Your friend did a good job making sure everyone understood the HP/WT ratio advantage he had. Nice respectful crowd overall.

[UAW 588]

Yes, that is my buddy who posted that.
Im gonna have to call him tomorrow and question his 'wording' of how he killed the Marauder. We raced to 80mph and I was at his back bumper the whole time.
His LS1 has fully ported heads, bigger valves, an aggressive cam, Hooker long tubes and SLP Exhaust.
His car put down 405rwhp and 385 torque through an automatic. Numbers like that should net an F-Body high 11's with traction.
And yes, I have Kook's Headers. Funny reading the post though, seemed like everyone was more impressed that there are Marauders that fast running around, heh?

Hey Zack, I noticed you buddy is from the Heights. What part, cause I have never seen him around town before?

[the fat bastid]

And, by the way, isn't that the same forum who lost 2 or 3 members in a serious street race crash last year?

not likely, it's only been open since last febuary

[BillyGman]

[QUOTE=SHERIFF]Who said it was a street race? I think they said, and I quote.... "We were on an old forest preserve road" Maybe it isn't open to the public.

if it isn't a race on a track, then what is it? A street race. Right? Let's not get into splitting hairs here, okay? Gimmie a break.

[RCSignals]

I dunno Billy, maybe it was a road race?

Maybe it wasn't a race at all?

[BillyGman]

well then Zack can answer that for you. Perhaps you and Sheriff can write to him if you're so concerned about it. Hairsplitting bores me. Sorry.

[RCSignals]

Humour Billy, humour

[BillyGman]

oh, I'm sorry RC. I just got home from a 12 hour shift w/out much sleep in the past 24 hours either, and maybe I was getting a bit cranky. Sorry man.

[RCSignals]

No problem. It's late. Later where you are.

[Constrictor]

Yes, that is my buddy who posted that.Im gonna have to call him tomorrow and question his 'wording' of how he killed the Marauder. We raced to 80mph and I was at his back bumper the whole time.His LS1 has fully ported heads, bigger valves, an aggressive cam, Hooker long tubes and SLP Exhaust.

His car put down 405rwhp and 385 torque through an automatic. Numbers like that should net an F-Body high 11's with traction.
And yes, I have Kook's Headers. Funny reading the post though, seemed like everyone was more impressed that there are Marauders that fast running around, heh?
Hey guys! Zack just called me to let me know about this thread. Funny how the internet works! :D Anyway, our race was 100% friendly, and both Zack and I have mutual respect for each others cars. As a matter of fact, Zack came by on the last day of my heads/cam swap to help me overcome a few problems I was having. It was nice to have a second pair of hands when you're getting disgruntled! I even have a pic of Zack's hand on my website! :D

As for my mods, I have a 228/224 112LSA custom ground cam, hand ported original heads with 2.02/1.57 valves, stock rockers, and REV1116 dual valve springs. I have Hooker LT headers through a custom Y with Carsound cats and an SLP Loudmouth and a Z06 intake manifold. I have a 3000 stall Midwest convertor in my trans, but other than that, the trans is stock. My rear end is stock, and so is the bottom end of my motor. My car has over 70k miles on the ticker.


This post is NOT to neccessarily challenge Zack in anyway, but merely to state that LS-1 Camaros aren't anything to worry about against a S/Ced Marauder, so I don't think that the Firebirds should be either. Especially if they're stock. Maybe these two stories are different because of the traction issues. Both my car and the Camaro that I raced hooked up good, and I had him beat from off the line, and gained on him through the entire race during all three runs. 2 out of three of them, I beat him by two car lengths, and the last one I beat him by one full car length.
True. A stock LS1 should be no match for a S/Cd Maruader, however one thing you should remember is that GM changed a number of things on the LS1s since their introduction in 1997 (98 in the Camaro and Firebird), so the range of stock power is anywhere from 275 RWHP for an early example to 310 for an 01-02 car. As for times, Ive seen bone stock LS1s run as fast as high 12s to as slow as high 13s, so there is a wide margin of performance for a "stock LS1".


hey man, don't you know the ls1 engine was touched by the hand of god himself?
Says who? Our motors eat oil, have noisy valvetrains, and early examples have been known to have oil pumps go out easily.


The thing to keep in mind is that once you get into that kind of modified territory, it's really tough to generalize. Speaking about Marauders, from what we've seen here, an S/C Marauder can put down a 1/4 mile anywhere between low low low 13 seconds and high high 11 seconds, depending on state of tune, traction, track and perhaps to a lesser extent driver skill. So the same can be said about the LS1 F-cars. One guy in our local club with a modified 2002 Camaro Z28 (not SS) regularly pulls only high 12s with more rwhp than what your friend puts out, but he's overcome what the rest of the car is capable of: he's in slicks territory now, and his stock clutch is hurting under the pressure and he's gotta start looking out for a busted rear anytime soon. So, as I've always said all along, a race is a race and no matter what kind of power you've got, it's all about getting it to the ground and getting to the finish line first, that's what constitutes a win, no ifs or buts. However, there's nothing saying the same power in another similar car but set up differently won't perform better. I personally witnessed a stock 1998 Camaro Z28 (again, not SS) pull a 12.9 (automatic, no air filter, descreened MAF, dropped the stock exhaust at the cats) on stock original tires. So I've learned to never say never.

BTW, with the LS1s, it's no longer true that the 6-speeds outperform the autos. In reality, it's now the opposite... the LS1 benefits from a slightly higher stall converter versus the previous LT1's setup, in an attempt to address the LS1's slight sub-1200 RPM torque loss versus the older LT1 in regular street driving. Also, because of the way the LS1 transitions from sub-LT1 torque at those low RPMs to totally blowing away the LT1 above 1500-2000 RPM, it's REALLY tough to properly launch a stock 6-speed LS1. Slightly too low RPM and it's bog city, slightly too high RPM and it's a total smoke show off the line. I have great footage of my car (shot from behind the car at the starting line) blowing the tires off the line on a screwed-up launch, followed by painting the track black halfway through 1st, then more black stripes on the 1-2 shift and halfway to 3rd, then another set of lines on the 2-3 upshift. Nice for posterity and showing off, not good for ETs. :up:

BTW, I haven't checked the other thread but I didn't get the impression that anyone was dissing the Marauder on the other F-site. If anything I got the impression most were giving the Marauder props for putting down some serious competition for the F-car. Not at all anything like those guys you work with.... I really can't stand it when folks talk out of their a$$es when it comes to other cars. Like, how could these guys have possibly known for sure whether your S/C'ed Marauder would be easy meat for their cars or not? Fun trash talk is fun, but why do these folks have to waste everyone's time mouthing off on something they have no real idea about?
I agree with everything said here. A race is a race. When it comes down to it, whoever reaches the end first is the winner, regardless if you spun, or if your engine blew up.

As for the transmission statement, you are correct. It's always been assumed that with any car that has a manual and automatic available, the manual will always be faster. This may still be true for stock applications, but throw a higher stall convertor in there wiht a modded car and the advantage all but disappears, throw into the mix that with an A4 driver error isnt nearly as big of an issue as it is with M6s and you'll start to see some really fast A4 guys out there.

You are correct. There was not one disrespectful comment in the original thread towards Zacks cars or Marauders in general. Our board is pretty civil and we do not put up with flaming. I actually think that in recent years the Ford vs Chevy mentality has died a bit since we all seem to stick together against a more pressing rival, the imports! :D


Hey Zack, I noticed you buddy is from the Heights. What part, cause I have never seen him around town before?
I am from the very north end of the city, by Serena Hills school. Ive had my car since early 1999, so I've been around a lot, however its only been modded like it is now for the past year or so. I have seen other Marauders around other than Zacks, but since most of them look the same, its kinda hard to tell if I've been seeing the same one over and over again! :)

We both hang out at Miami Subs in Highland, IN on some weekends, and I also went with Zack to a Marauder dynoday up in Chicago Ridge once last year and I met some really cool guys there. Perhaps one day we'll get to hang out together and talk about cars in general.

That's the feeling I got. You're doing good when you can still get that kind of respect lookin at tail lights. :up:

Your friend did a good job making sure everyone understood the HP/WT ratio advantage he had. Nice respectful crowd overall.
Yes, like I said, the race was out of fun, and I didnt want anyone to get the impression that I was making excuses or flaming his car in anyway!

It looks like you guys have a nice and friendly board here. Our board welcomes enthusiasts regardless of what you drive and its nice to see there are others like us! :D

[TripleTransAm]

Nice to hear from the other side of the 'match up'. I was impressed by the tone of the thread on ls2.com... I think there are a few local guys (Montreal f-crowd) on that board. I don't usually participate on F-body related boards because over the years they've gotten swamped with post whores, followed by Zaino-related flame fests, and incessant oil wars. ;) First it was ls1.com, then ls1tech.com, then ls6.com then ls2.com... hopefully this iteration lasts long, it sounds like a reasonable bunch of fellows you got there.

Forget the aftermarket torque converters, even the stock TC on A4 LS1s can give them the edge over the M6 brothers. This was definitely not the case for the LT1s. No big deal, I still like rowing the gears on my semi-muffled LS1. :up:

This board here pretty much welcomes any car enthusiast. Personally, I welcome anyone with an open mind in general... there's always someone faster out there, so it's no point getting into p*ssing matches over something as trivial as a car.

[RCSignals]

Steve, what's a Zaino flame test?

[Zack]

Welcome to Marauderland Mike!
Possibly one of the longest posts this board has ever seen, but entertaining nonetheless!
See ya this weekend?
Later,
Zack

[TripleTransAm]

Steve, what's a Zaino flame test?

You take a car enthusiast, place him and a computer in front of a freshly polished black automobile, and have him begin to abuse the car over the internet until the polish breaks down.

That would be flame fest, exactly as I wrote it (it's Friday, so I'll forgive ya), but flame test does sound much more interesting than the flame fests I've witnessed on that subject. :down: :help: