Pinion seal leaking again--help!

[RAUDER]

A local ford dealer fixed it the first time about three months ago. I then had a speed shop install my 4.10 gears a few weeks after. Now its still leaking. I took my car back to the dealer this morning and they want to disassemble the rear end to try to fix the leak.

Should I give them the go ahead and hope they do not notice the 4.10's, or should I take it back to the speed shop?

Thanks
Sam

[CRUZTAKER]

There is HUGE 4:10 engraving on them...but judging from the incapacities of many dealers...it may go right over their heads.:shot:

The seal is no big deal, if your wallet affords it, pay a speed shop.

[RAUDER]

Thanks Barry

Anyone else have this problem?

[BillyGman]

nope. Not me. But I installed the gears myself. I always clean the I.D. of the housing off thorughly w/solvent such as M.E.K. or Acetone to remove the gear oil residue, and then use an edequate amount of the Black Permatex gasket sealant on the O.D. of the pinion oil seal before I smack it in. But that's pretty much all common sense. However some mechanics might be lacking that.


One other thing that comes to mind is that have you noticed any vibration at high speeds since you've had the 4.10 gears installed? If so, then the driveshaft might be in question. The vibration can likely mess up the pinion oil seal over time. Ofcourse that probably wouldn't apply if you've already installed the Dynotech driveshaft.

[RAUDER]

No vibration problems, just some gear oil on garage floor.

[BillyGman]

What about the choice of gear oil? Do you have synthetic in there? I've heard people mention that synthetic lubricants for the rear end or transmission sometimes can cause leaks due them having different viscosity characteristics. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but that is the only other thing I can think of to explain the possible cause of your problem other than a cracked or bent cover, or rear end housing. Are you sure the leak is coming right from the front of the housing where the seal is, and not simply from the cover and trailing towards the front and dripping off that area?

[RoyLPita]

IMHO, have the speed shop handle the pinion seal. They were the ones who installed the gears and seal last. Plus, there is no reason why they should have to remove the rear cover to replace the seal.

[duhtroll]

I love this site. I have some questions about this regarding warranty also.

The dealership that installed my 4.10s less than a year ago is seeing my MM tomorrow AM. (replacing a part under warranty and I am having plugs replaced)

I also have a pinion seal leak - not by any means a bad one. No drips yet, just lube on the outside.

I am fully expecting them to say "Well, you invalidated your warranty on this by having us modify it so it's your cost."

Am I out of line in asking them to back their work since it has been less than a year? The new gears use the same seal, correct? I should have a case that it would have failed anyway, and therefore it is warranty?

Also, should I end up paying for the repair (not a big deal but I will still avoid it if I can), how much parts and labor is involved for when/if they try to screw me on the cost?

Thanks again guys!

-A

[RoyLPita]

My Ford dealership guarantees their work for 1 year or 12000 miles, whichever comes first. Very rarely do we issue "No Guarantees".

Just my .02 and then some.

[MarauderMark]

Thanks Barry

Anyone else have this problem?



Yeppers! Found it out thursady last week when getting the magnaflows installed.made an appointment at the dealers(where the car was purchased) and took the car there early(730am)then called@ 10:30am to see what was up and they said the cars out back and we can't get to it today and to leave it Yeah right they can kiss my a$$.i said why did you tell me to be here early if your not going to do my car?the guy says who told you that?i said you!!1 thing lead to another and i wound up telling them this is the last time you *********s will never see this car again and i will report this service dept to ford.and they didnt even care .so i left 2 black lines and smoke in there lot and as i was turning out of the lot w/2 blk lines and smoke i gave them the Hawaiian greeting...sorry to go on and on but this thread got me started on why this happened..oh by the way can these morons be reported???they really need to be ..OHHHH heh , 1 day i was there b4 the s/cer and a guy was hollering at them about burning rubber in his truck (w/duallies)in there lot and i thought then what you worried for they fixxed it maybe they were testing it.. :shot: :flamer:

[carfixer]

Andrew, about $150 should cover the repair. A tech that doesn't know how to do it correctly may over torque the pinion nut and ruin your pinion bearings.

Mark, a letter to the dealer priciple usually has the most affect. If it is addressed to him personally, he may read it and it will flow downhill from there. Every letter that is address to the owner at our dealer gets a response. The black stripes you left on his service area may have burned the bridge to him though.
A letter to Ford will probably not do much and a call to customer service will just refer to another dealer.
IMO, since you will never go there again, just let it go. The way to get them back it to tell everyone you can how bad they are.

[RAUDER]

Well,

I told the dealer to go ahead with the disassembly. The speed shop did use royal purple, but I haven't heard of synthetic fluid causing leaks????
Hopefully, they will overlook the gears and fix it right this time.

thanks
sam

[David Morton]

Well,

I told the dealer to go ahead with the disassembly. The speed shop did use royal purple, but I haven't heard of synthetic fluid causing leaks????
Hopefully, they will overlook the gears and fix it right this time.

thanks
samI hope you're OK with the fact that you are trying to get the dealership to handle the speed shops' comeback as if it was theirs. They may be out to prove the comeback isn't theirs. They wouldn't be getting paid to disassemble the rear end for a seal leak anyways, so look out! Don't be suprised if you get the call, "Your car parts are in a basket and YOU are paying cause warranty doesn't cover speed shop work." :nono: :banned:

You should've taken it back to the speed shop. It's their comeback, not the dealerships. :cry:

[BillyGman]

I wonder if there's anyone else here who has used synthetic gear oil in the differential housing who has also discovered leaks. This would be valuable feedback for us all if you did, so please speak up. Again, in accordance of what I have heard, the synthetics will actually find leaks. However, this might be innaccurate info that I've received about that. I'm not really sure since I have never used the synthetic gear lubes. I've always stayed w/the standard gear oils that the manufactures call out for.

[duhtroll]

Carfixer -

Is it normal to use the same seal for a gear swap? I am trying to figure out if the seal I have is OEM or "new" as of last July when they did the gears.

Thanks,
-A

[BillyGman]

Carfixer -

Is it normal to use the same seal for a gear swap? I am trying to figure out if the seal I have is OEM or "new" as of last July when they did the gears.

Thanks,
-A
Until Carfixer gets back, I can tell you for certain that NOBODY in their right mind would ever re-use the old pinion seal after performing a gear change. The seal will be deformed after prying it out, and to re-use it again would mean a sure leak. A new seal only costs a few dollars, so there wouldn't be any reason why a mechanic anywhere would try to use the old one over again, and I know Carfixer will agree w/me on that.

[duhtroll]

Billy -

That's what I thought, and it certainly makes sense. Thing is I don't remember a new seal going in. If the seal is original then I don't think this is my repair cost - it should have been replaced during the swap. I will check on this part.

Thanks,
-A

[BillyGman]

Hmmmm, I'm not sure that I'm following you on this. What do you mean that you "don't remember" a new seal being installed? Were you there watching the entire process? And besides that, you won't be able to tell wether or not the seal is the original simply by crawling under there and looking at the rear end now that it's all together. So I'm not sure what you mean.

[TripleTransAm]

I noticed this was the second time the work was done on your car. Sometimes there is a slight deformity in the casing where the pinion seal sits, and no amount of replacing will cure it 100% over more than a year's time or so.

As Billy said, sometimes just a small quantity of sealer (red loctite or similar) before installation (followed by proper curing time) of a new seal will result in a much better job.

[duhtroll]

I was there for part of it, and I missed part of it. That's what I mean. Just because I didn't see it does not mean he didn't do it. I will ask.

-A


Hmmmm, I'm not sure that I'm following you on this. What do you mean that you "don't remember" a new seal being installed? Were you there watching the entire process? And besides that, you won't be able to tell wether or not the seal is the original simply by crawling under there and looking at the rear end now that it's all together. So I'm not sure what you mean.

[BillyGman]

A housing deformity you say? That's a good point Steve. I wouldn't use Loktite though. Especially not the red stuff since that's a threadlocker. If you're bent on using Loktite, then I'd have to say the green stuff since that's a bearing mount sealer instead of a thread locker like the red stuff is. But I'd much prefer a gasket sealer for this job (I'd prefer the black permatex, but there are several RTV sealants that can be used).

[BillyGman]

I was there for part of it, and I missed part of it. That's what I mean. Just because I didn't see it does not mean he didn't do it. I will ask.

-AI'm sure that he did unless he's one of the worst shade tree mechanics I've ever seen. He will probably roll his eyes when you ask him such a question. trust me on this. Nobody in their right mind would perform a job as big as a gear change w/out replacing the old seal w/a new one. You have to remove the old seal to get the old pinion gear out of the housing anyway. So you're already in there.

If anything, I think it's very possible that many mechanics do NOT use any type of gasket sealer on the pinion oil seal during installation, and if there's any inconsistencies in the housing I.D. like Steve pointed out, then eventually the seal will leak unless sealer was used.

This is just one of the many small reasons why I do most of, if not all the work on my car. Because when it comes to things like this, there's no way for you to tell if the entire job is getting done correctly unless you do it yourself. There is a dry film sealer on the O.D. of the pinion oil seal just as there is on an oil seal for the tailshaft of a transmission. So I'm sure that some mechanics simply rely on that dry film sealer which is already on the metal part of the oil seal. But I don't believe for one minute that this dry film lube stuff will seal as good as gasket sealer does(especially in the case of a possible inconsistency or even a small nick in the housing bore) which is why I always have used the gasket sealer. When you work on your own car, one of the things that's uppermost in your mind is not wanting to have to take something apart a second time because of something you did halfway. Particularly on a big job such as a gear change.

When someone else works on your car who works on cars every day, the thought of having to work on your car a second time because of corners that have been cut during the process the first time around might not be the uppermost thing in his mind since he works on cars every day anyway.

[RAUDER]

And it continues...

I'm taking yall's advice. Taking it back to the speed shop. I do not believe the gear set came with a new seal, so I don't think they put a new one in. I'll buy a new one just in case.

Thanks

[BillyGman]

No gear sets I've ever used came w/an oil seal. Some gear installation kits might, but just because the gear set itself didn't come w/one does NOT mean that who ever did the work didn't use a new seal.

[RAUDER]

I'll be sure to ask them.

thanks

[03SILVERSTREAK]

I love this site. I have some questions about this regarding warranty also.
The dealership that installed my 4.10s less than a year ago is seeing my MM tomorrow AM. (replacing a part under warranty and I am having plugs replaced)
I also have a pinion seal leak - not by any means a bad one. No drips yet, just lube on the outside.
I am fully expecting them to say "Well, you invalidated your warranty on this by having us modify it so it's your cost."
Am I out of line in asking them to back their work since it has been less than a year? The new gears use the same seal, correct? I should have a case that it would have failed anyway, and therefore it is warranty?
Also, should I end up paying for the repair (not a big deal but I will still avoid it if I can), how much parts and labor is involved for when/if they try to screw me on the cost?
Thanks again guys!-AHope this helps-I also had the dealership install my 4.10 gears and MMC Driveshaft and was told that this action will not void my warranty . the only thing they placed in the work order was a note stating " INSTALLED ITEM ARE FOR OFF ROAD USE AS PER MANUFACTURE " but the workmanship and all the added parts are Ford products and are covered...:cool:

[BillyGman]

If I were you guys that are having the leaks w/the synthetic gear oils, I'd go back to the standard gear oil if I were you. I can't help but to think that has something to do w/the problem.

[duhtroll]

Incidentally, the work is done and he put a new seal in with no questions asked and no charge.

Thanks,
-A

[ahess77]

I just drove 250 miles to Chicago and 250 miles back last weekend. Moved my car to let the Trick-or-Treaters get to the door and found a PUDDLE of gear oil on the driveway. Raised it to check the level couldn't feel any oil in the differential with my finger (have the girdle installed with filler plug). So I poured in a quart and STILL couldn't feel the oil level. There's oil flung everywhere around the front of the differential, it appears to be quickly leaking from around the pinion seal.

I hope there's no damage to the gears or clutches. I ran 2800 to 3000 RPM most of the way back Sunday morning. I had the 4:10 gears installed last July and have about 6000 miles on it since with no noticable drips or leaks. I put in Red Line 75W90 synthetic with friction modifier when the gears were installed.

Since I haven't seen an overwhelming responce to people having leaks who use synthetic oil I'll assume that's not the problem. Let me know if there's proof otherwise.

[BillyGman]

Since I haven't seen an overwhelming responce to people having leaks who use synthetic oil I'll assume that's not the problem. Let me know if there's proof otherwise.
Well, I can't claim that there's "proof", but since you're one of two people who have participated in this thread who both have had leaks, and who both also used the synthetic gear lubes, then I think that's reason enough to suspect the synthetics for being a possible cause. Just food for thought.

[RF Overlord]

then I think that's reason enough to suspect the synthetics for being a possible cause.

As the resident "Oil-lord", let me say that synthetic lubes DO NOT cause leaks, either in the engine or the differential. In an extremely sludged-up engine, synthetic oil will clean sludge and varnish, which may have previously masked a leak at a hardened seal, which may then leak somewhat until the esters in the oil soften the seal and swell it slightly, eliminating the leak again. For my money, since both of the cars in question had new gears installed, either the tech didn't install a new pinion seal, or it was physically damaged somehow.

[BillyGman]

The fact that synthetic oil was used might be purely coincidental, however I don't think there's any way for us to know for sure. So I guess that each individual has to decide based on their own experience w/synthetics. As far as the oil seal, I think it's more liely that gasket sealer wasn't used on it, and IMO it should be used. Like I've previously stated, there are probably many mechanics who rely on the dry-film sealer that the oil seal comes with, but I don't think that will work as well as smearing some gasket sealer on it also.

[RF Overlord]

As far as the oil seal, I think it's more likely that gasket sealer wasn't used on it, and IMO it should be used.

That's another possibility...

[FordNut]

I use synthetics and have no leaks.

[BADMERC]

I have about 3000 miles on my 4.10s with Royal Purple. I did the install myself, and also put in a new seal. I did not use any sealant and have not had any problems. However I put on a Trick Flow rear cover with Ultra Black and I am starting to see a small amount of leakage. I just cannot see it being the synthetic gear oil.

[BillyGman]

However I put on a Trick Flow rear cover with Ultra Black and I am starting to see a small amount of leakage. I just cannot see it being the synthetic gear oil.I think that the covers are a whole different issue, and also one that can be puzzling. I say that because there are several others that I've heard of who have had eaks from those heavy duty covers, while at the same time there are still others who say that they haven't had any leakage problems w/them at all. I don't have one of those because I was concerned about the reports of leaks, but I wonder if the best thing to do in order to prevent leaks is to use the black Permatex sealant (or an equivalent product) on the threads of the center studs.

And as far as the use of gasket sealant on the pinion oil seals goes, I just think that it's very little extra effort to do that, which might very well make the difference in some instances. Therefore I see no reason why someone wouldn't use it on the seal. Especially in light of the fact that it would be a lot more trouble to have to go in there a second time to replace the seal again in the case of a leak, than it would be to simply use the gasket sealer in the first place. It's simply insurance against leaks in that area.

[jspradii]

Proper torquing, and re-torquing is all that should be required, assuming your gasket is seated properly. A small leak should not signify any gear trouble UNLESS you are having traction problems or some other indication that the diff is not meshing. In mine, when I had the rear gears put in and the billett case put on, the torque was the only issue. By the way: After I race the car, in every instance, I re-torque the rear. Only once have I had to add a pound or more to the case; but that can be significant whan you are delivering a lot of torque to the rear (in my case it varied, between 450 ft/lbs to 641 ft/lbs..good idea to check). Doesn't take but a few minutes, and can save you a lot of grief.:banana2:

[BillyGman]

I understand and agree w/the need for proper torqing of the cover bolts, but it's difficult for me to believe that all the leaks I've heard of people having have anything to do w/that. I say that because I've never heard of anyone replacing the cover w/out the proper torque being applied to the bolts. I've also never heard of having to re-apply the toque to the cover bolts on a rear end on a street vehicle. That isn't required on the S/Ced Cobra, so why should that be needed on our Marauders? The only thing that can be a problem w/the rear-end covers regarding the torque applied to the cover bolts, is the fact that the small studs in the center of the cover that apply pressure to the differential bearing caps only require 5 ft/lbs of torque. And I'm wondering if many mechanics end up over torqing them, which might very well lead to leakage problems.

[jspradii]

Over-torquing can cause the gasket seals to split,; this is not as common a problem as undertorquing on install. Any one who races their car, regardless of what make, model or rear end they have in it ( an 8.8"; 9"; a Dana or a Currie) would be foolish not to re-torque after each race episode, any crew chief worth his salt will tell you that). This is particularly true when you are running in excess of 500 ft/lbs of torque. The studs come slightly loose on each application, and it's best to make sure they are tight, in order to avoid leaving your diff and assorted parts on the launch pad. For the most part, mildly modified vehicles like most of our Marauders don't require that level of scrutiny. But, if you get on your car hard, and often (like I know you do, Billy), it just makes sense to take the ole' torque wrench out every couple thousand miles to check, along with with the fluid levels. An ounce of prevention..........

[BillyGman]

. For the most part, mildly modified vehicles like most of our Marauders don't require that level of scrutiny. But, if you get on your car hard, and often (like I know you do, Billy), it just makes sense to take the ole' torque wrench out every couple thousand miles to check, along with with the fluid levels. An ounce of prevention..........
Hmmm, very thought provoking. I agree that it definately can't hurt to do that, and like you've indicated, it isn't difficult to do, nor would it take much time to do that. So I'll give it a try for a few months to see if any of the cover bolts have moved. If I find that they have loosened up at all, that will be pretty scary since that would be an indication of the housing flexing quite a bit!!!! :eek:

[Mongoose]

Back in March, DR, while installing my 4.10's, found my axles and bearings were shot and replaced them. About 5 months later I noticed the pinion seal had begun leaking slightly. I had a local dealer replace the pinion seal. A month later a pinion bearing began singing. (I couldn't determine whether this was caused by shrapnel from the axle/bearing failure, improper re-torquing of the pinion nut when the seal was replaced or an extra heavy right foot :confused: ). Last week I had the dealer replace the pinion bearings , crush sleeve, pinion seal, carrier bearings, clutch plates, axle bearings, and axle seals. Factory gear oil along with a bottle of additive that came with the clutch set went back in. The next day after the rebuild, I noticed the pinion seal was leaking. The dealer is going to check it out today. One other potential problem that hasn't been mentioned is the possibility of the differential housing vent being plugged. It is possible to force oil out thru a pinion seal due to a pressure build-up caused by a plugged vent (confirmed in the Helms manual).

[BillyGman]

a "differential housing vent" you say? I must admit, that's something that I'm not familair with. I'll have to look that one up in my Ford shop manual (the one from helms).

[jspradii]

Bill, I don't know, but I've been racing cars since 1966, and the gait has always been....check yer' butt! (If you know what I mean)

[jspradii]

Billy, every thing you DO on that car flexes it. If you want to make sure it doesn't fail you when you want it to perform, you have to check those things. Again, any race car crew chief worth his salt will tell you that.

[BillyGman]

I'll definately check it out Jim. Easy enough to do. Thanks. ;)

[Mongoose]

a "differential housing vent" you say? I must admit, that's something that I'm not familair with. I'll have to look that one up in my Ford shop manual (the one from helms).

From the Sept. '02 edition of the Helm's Workshop Manual:

"When a seal leak occurs, install a new seal and check the vent and the vent hose to make sure they are clean and free of foreign material." page 205-00-7

From the symptom chart on page 205-00-12:
Condition:Lubricant leaking from the pinion seal or axle shaft oil seals
Possible Sources:Vent
Action:CLEAN the axle housing vent

Vent is referenced as #22 and hose as #41 on the 8.8" Rear Drive Axle and Differential schematic (A0044590) 2003 Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis/Marauder, 7/2002 on page 205-02-2. On page 205-02-3, the vent is given a part number of "4022" and the formed vent hose as "4A049".

I'm not saying this is the answer, just another possible solution.

[ahess77]

OK, Questions to those of you with a rear axle girdle installed; did you fill to the plug on the girdle or on the axle housing? I had a TA Performance Girdle installed and it's oil fill plug is much higher than the plug on the axle housing. Apparently the shop that installed the gear filled it to the plug on the girdle. My leakage may be due to excess oil in the differential. Anybody have thoughs on that?

[SergntMac]

OK, Questions to those of you with a rear axle girdle installed; did you fill to the plug on the girdle or on the axle housing? I had a TA Performance Girdle installed and it's oil fill plug is much higher than the plug on the axle housing. Apparently the shop that installed the gear filled it to the plug on the girdle. My leakage may be due to excess oil in the differential. Anybody have thoughs on that?
I've got the FRP version girdle, but I don't expect them to be much different. My installer filled to the axle housing, and his reasoning was to do otherwise would overfill the case and force the excess out of the vent.

[03SILVERSTREAK]

OK, Questions to those of you with a rear axle girdle installed; did you fill to the plug on the girdle or on the axle housing? I had a TA Performance Girdle installed and it's oil fill plug is much higher than the plug on the axle housing. Apparently the shop that installed the gear filled it to the plug on the girdle. My leakage may be due to excess oil in the differential. Anybody have thoughs on that?
When the dealership did my rear end they filled it through the plug attached to the rear end case and not the cover.

[BillyGman]

I've got the FRP version girdle, but I don't expect them to be much different. My installer filled to the axle housing, and his reasoning was to do otherwise would overfill the case and force the excess out of the vent.

AAAAAAHHH, I think that now we might be on to something here. This is very revealing. :hmmm:

[BillyGman]

From the Sept. '02 edition of the Helm's Workshop Manual:

"When a seal leak occurs, install a new seal and check the vent and the vent hose to make sure they are clean and free of foreign material." page 205-00-7

From the symptom chart on page 205-00-12:
Condition:Lubricant leaking from the pinion seal or axle shaft oil seals
Possible Sources:Vent
Action:CLEAN the axle housing vent

Vent is referenced as #22 and hose as #41 on the 8.8" Rear Drive Axle and Differential schematic (A0044590) 2003 Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis/Marauder, 7/2002 on page 205-02-2. On page 205-02-3, the vent is given a part number of "4022" and the formed vent hose as "4A049".

I'm not saying this is the answer, just another possible solution.
Thanks Mongoose. I did two ring & pinion gear changes myself. The first was done w/a lift, and the second w/jackstands while on my back, and through all of that I never even noticed that vent tube. :depress: