Baer "warped rotors"??

[TAF]

I've seen some info lately about Baer having a problem with "warped rotors". Or a "warping problem" with Baer rotors and just wanted to set the record straight.

I spoke with Rick at Baer today. Since they have been casting their rotors for the last few years...there has NOT been a problem of "warped rotors" with Baer. What most people feel with high performance brakes and self-diagnose as "warped rotors" are buildup of film from the pads...which can easily be cleaned with seating the pads again by making 3-4 60 MPH stops, according to Rick.

If you want an education about brakes, feel free to give Rick a call at 602.233.1411 ext. 24 and he'll be glad to help you.

I just hate to see missinformation out there on what I feel, and experts that I've spoken with feel, is the finest braking system for your Marauder.

And BTW, according to Rick...Baer is the ONLY brake company that he knows of that provides a unconditional LIFETIME WARRANTY against rotor warpage.

[Marauderman]

.Thanks again Todd for good updates for our brakes......and also today , I learned from Mac that replacement pads are the same as those from Corvettes...so easy to obtain.....man this boiard of 411 is so great.....and thanks for the heads up on how to fix/test via the braking sequences.........Tom....ps... so far...no problems with mine........

[BruteForce]

I've seen some info lately about Baer having a problem with "warped rotors". Or a "warping problem" with Baer rotors and just wanted to set the record straight.

I spoke with Rick at Baer today. Since they have been casting their rotors for the last few years...there has NOT been a problem of "warped rotors" with Baer. What most people feel with high performance brakes and self-diagnose as "warped rotors" are buildup of film from the pads...which can easily be cleaned with seating the pads again by making 3-4 60 MPH stops, according to Rick.

If you want an education about brakes, feel free to give Rick a call at 602.233.1411 ext. 24 and he'll be glad to help you.

I just hate to see missinformation out there on what I feel, and experts that I've spoken with feel, is the finest braking system for your Marauder.

And BTW, according to Rick...Baer is the ONLY brake company that he knows of that provides a unconditional LIFETIME WARRANTY against rotor warpage.

All that and some of the highest bling quotient going. :up:

[SergntMac]

I learned from Mac that replacement pads are the same as those from Corvettes...so easy to obtain.
May I help make it eaiser? Get your crayons out.

If you are driving on the BaerClaw kit for the Marauder, replacement pads are available from AC Delco under P/N 125-30-681. If you wish to upgrade, or, try another compound, you can use this number for cross reference, or, begin your research with 1997 and up, C5 Corvette. Lot's of options open for y'all here.

On this note, the rear OEM brake pads seem likewise generic. From The FMC parts catalogue, you'll get a choice of numbers, all of which will fit correctly on the MM.

3W1Z-2200-AA
4W1Z-2200-AA
4W7Z-2200-AA

Despite the differences in prefix, 2200-AA defines brake pads, rear/limo/extended service. Once again, if you want to shop options for the OEM rear pads, you can start with these numbers in cross referencing.

I agree whole heartedly with the sentiment of the opening post. It occurs to me that in our haste to help fellow owners resolve their questions, we can unintentionally create an impression that a particular part, or aftermarket vendor, is at fault. Once that train of thought leaves the station, others are quick to point out "but that doesn't happen to mine!" This is human nature, yes, and we should be quicker to realize that it's happening.

I've been driving on the Baer Brakes for two years, and all I have done is replace the pads, and only because I wanted to. I've had no problems whatsoever, and my Marauder S has been driven (and driven hard) by over 50 fellow MM owners now. It gets a real beating and it takes it, which is a testament to the quality and durability of the MM, Kenny Brown, and Baer, as well as the others involved in building a Marauder S. Ask yourself this...Would Kenny Brown have selected Baer to participate in his building of the Marauder S if Baer indeed had "a history" of problems? I think not.

Brake rotor warpage can occur on any car, and for a many reasons. #1 cause IMHO, is over-torquing the lug nuts. If you have anyone working on your MM, be watchful here, over-torquing can be very damaging to any rotor, even the OEM stuff.

Moreover, overall, rotor warp has been rare among us here, and just because it happened to one owner twice in a short period of time, is not a sign of product weakness. Indeed. Comparaing this specific complaint to our collective rotor failure rate suggests that something else may be happening with that particular car. I'd like to hear more assesment and less blame, until it's been earned. As it's been stated, there is a lifetime warranty for Baer customers, and this is an important feature to consider when choosing any vendor or service.

Just my .02c...

[Zack]

There is so much buildup on my rotors and pads that numerous panic stops did not resolve the problem.
I have to resort to a sander to cure the problem.
Not what I wanted after dropping 1500 bucks.

[gonzo50]

There is so much buildup on my rotors and pads that numerous panic stops did not resolve the problem.
I have to resort to a sander to cure the problem.
Not what I wanted after dropping 1500 bucks.
Is this something thats inevitable and bound to happen with this kit, regardless of the "seasoning of the rotors" or the "bedding of the pads" ? :confused:

Are these brakes just overkill for this application, and not getting the tremendous workout that it warrants ? :burnout: Maybe a 13" kit will be suffice.

[SergntMac]

Is this something thats inevitable and bound to happen with this kit, regardless of the "seasoning of the rotors" or the "bedding of the pads" ? Are these brakes just overkill for this application, and not getting the tremendous workout that it warrants ? Maybe a 13" kit will be suffice.
You ask a decent question, Gonzo, and I do not believe it is inevitable, what ever the something is. There are many, many, problem free Baer kits on the pavement right now, and they have been there for years.

If the something does point back to Baer, I would begin asking about pad compound of the pads included in their kit. Baer doesn't build their own pads, they get them from suppliers and they may have a problem they are not aware of, yet. BTW, there is a lot of variety in compounds too, each having their individual benefits and drawbacks. This could be Zack's problem, with it's side effect to the rotor. But, I'm using pads from Baer from a year ago, and I'm not having any such problems. I have some light squeaking from the RF after 10K of use, and I am addressing that with customary repairs.

Let's remember that this is a 4400 pound automobile that many of us are rebuilding to not only go faster, but to get faster quicker. As you achieve this, your ability to decellerate should increase in likewise scale. Perhaps a 13" kit is more appropriate for a N/A MM with mild modifications, let's say one running 14.0 and slower. However, a few MMs here are into the mid 11s, and a 13" brake system, IMHO, would be as strained as the OEM. If you're still designing your own MM, why buy brakes twice? Sure, you could use a 13" rotor just fine with very aggressive pads, but the wear factor is high and the life span short, and I am sure someone would complain about that too.

I believe brakes are one of those things you cannot have too much of. Like protective helmets, some are more expensive than others based on their features and level of protection. It's your brain, so, spend what you feel appropriate?

[Marauderman]

.......I believe brakes are one of those things you cannot have too much of. Like protective helmets, some are more expensive than others based on their features and level of protection. It's your brain, so, spend what you feel appropriate?
...I just love the way you put situations in pure perspective................... .......Tom

[TAF]

Is this something thats inevitable and bound to happen with this kit, regardless of the "seasoning of the rotors" or the "bedding of the pads" ? :confused:

Are these brakes just overkill for this application, and not getting the tremendous workout that it warrants ? :burnout: Maybe a 13" kit will be suffice.
Carlos,

I really suggest you give Rick a call, he can answer any questions or concerns you might have.

Baer Brakes
602.233.1411
Rick is at ext. 24

[HwyCruiser]

I've had the 13" Wilwood 6-pistion kit on the MM for a few months now. Let me say first that I love them because they are the last thing on my mind. They've proven themselves time after time to my satisfaction.

Physics ceases to care about how quickly you got to the speed your going the moment the brake pedal is applied. You can feel free to start calculating the results of an elastic collision though. After 10 years I'm a bit fuzzy on the subject but I can dig out the book. Sorry, nevermind. The issue at hand is pad compound. Very little dust here.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39 00

Back on topic... Right after Wilwood installation there was terrible shudder at highway speeds and pad knock like you wouldn't believe, even after performing the recommended bed-in procedures more than a few times. I wound up having the rotors turned on the spindles to smooth the rotors and haven't had any shudder since. The pad knock was taken care of with a little fitment of the pad tangs and a squirt of "Disc Brake Quite." It took a little time to shake down the install, but since I changed what Ford sold me it's entirely my fault... and I'd do it again.

The shudder was diagnosed over the phone as build-up after the fact. There's no way to really tell (possibly shipment distress or someone getting happy with an impact wrench), but I've put on several thousand miles since the turning with no recurring shudder. Perhaps its just a matter of time. I hope not.

Fragile stickers and impact wrenches aside, consider the possibility that living with performance brakes will have both positives and negatives. Mainly, if you don't exercise them to their potential now and again the negative (pad build-up) will eventually show. If you get a chance to heat 'em up once in a while you'll enjoy a peek at the performance gained and keep the rotors clean. Seems reasonable.

I hear Autocross is a pretty good workout.

There's 2 more cents.

- JD

[FordNut]

I have never had any problems with my OEM brakes. Maybe I should just leave them alone.... Nah, everything can be improved upon.

OK so we have had an occasional issue with the Baer and the Wilwood (TCE?) systems, has anybody had any issues with KVR brakes? If so, what was it?

[FiveO]

I've got the older KVR brakes on my MM. The previous owner bought them from Dennis back in late February.

My only complaint is minor squeaking on stopping. Other than that...they work great.

I will probably be upgrading in the spring to a larger front kit, not because I'm unhappy...just because with the new Trilogy going on in early Sept....and the Metco control arms and watts link...me thinks that next spring/summer is going to be busy moving the MM around :D

[HwyCruiser]

I have never had any problems with my OEM brakes. Maybe I should just leave them alone.... Nah, everything can be improved upon.

OK so we have had an occasional issue with the Baer and the Wilwood (TCE?) systems, has anybody had any issues with KVR brakes? If so, what was it?

Fordnut,

Yes, the Wilwoods are from TCE.

I had similar problems with a '90 Mitsu Eclipse (back when I was young and stupid) with shudder of the stock brakes. I had the rotors turned while still on the car and the issue was solved, so not knowing any better I assumed the Wilwoods were probably warped. The dealer mic'ed the Wilwood's on the MM and confirmed that they were out of true a little so I had them go ahead and turn them while they had it. I'm sure Todd@TCE would have replaced them but the issue was fixed. I put it behind me and went on down the road.

If I over-emphasized the problems after install, I didn't mean to. The point I didn't make very well is that a brake shudder could be rotors out of true or pad build-up. The stock rotors can be knocked out of true also, but with performance brakes there's another possibility to look at. Todd@TCE enlighted me that there are different pad compounds that can be used depending on what your after performance-wise, although I've been happy with the pads that came with the kit.

Its a continuing education with modifications, and the more information available the better. Anyone want to talk about torque converters?

- JD

[John F. Russo]

May I help make it eaiser? Get your crayons out.

If you are driving on the BaerClaw kit for the Marauder, replacement pads are available from AC Delco under P/N 125-30-681. If you wish to upgrade, or, try another compound, you can use this number for cross reference, or, begin your research with 1997 and up, C5 Corvette. Lot's of options open for y'all here.

On this note, the rear OEM brake pads seem likewise generic. From The FMC parts catalogue, you'll get a choice of numbers, all of which will fit correctly on the MM.

3W1Z-2200-AA
4W1Z-2200-AA
4W7Z-2200-AA

Despite the differences in prefix, 2200-AA defines brake pads, rear/limo/extended service. Once again, if you want to shop options for the OEM rear pads, you can start with these numbers in cross referencing.

I agree whole heartedly with the sentiment of the opening post. It occurs to me that in our haste to help fellow owners resolve their questions, we can unintentionally create an impression that a particular part, or aftermarket vendor, is at fault. Once that train of thought leaves the station, others are quick to point out "but that doesn't happen to mine!" This is human nature, yes, and we should be quicker to realize that it's happening.

I've been driving on the Baer Brakes for two years, and all I have done is replace the pads, and only because I wanted to. I've had no problems whatsoever, and my Marauder S has been driven (and driven hard) by over 50 fellow MM owners now. It gets a real beating and it takes it, which is a testament to the quality and durability of the MM, Kenny Brown, and Baer, as well as the others involved in building a Marauder S. Ask yourself this...Would Kenny Brown have selected Baer to participate in his building of the Marauder S if Baer indeed had "a history" of problems? I think not.

Brake rotor warpage can occur on any car, and for a many reasons. #1 cause IMHO, is over-torquing the lug nuts. If you have anyone working on your MM, be watchful here, over-torquing can be very damaging to any rotor, even the OEM stuff.

Moreover, overall, rotor warp has been rare among us here, and just because it happened to one owner twice in a short period of time, is not a sign of product weakness. Indeed. Comparaing this specific complaint to our collective rotor failure rate suggests that something else may be happening with that particular car. I'd like to hear more assesment and less blame, until it's been earned. As it's been stated, there is a lifetime warranty for Baer customers, and this is an important feature to consider when choosing any vendor or service.

Just my .02c...



Thank you very much for the information

[sailsmen]

OEM size front KVR rotors/pads since 3-5-04 and no probs.

[Fourth Horseman]

How do you go about telling what kind of brake pad compound you're getting? I mean, do they have a numbering system or something to define what type you're getting? Also, for those of us that don't auto cross or anything, but would like upgraded braking for the daily commuter grind and occasional spiritted driving, what type of compound should we look for?

[HwyCruiser]

How do you go about telling what kind of brake pad compound you're getting? I mean, do they have a numbering system or something to define what type you're getting? Also, for those of us that don't auto cross or anything, but would like upgraded braking for the daily commuter grind and occasional spiritted driving, what type of compound should we look for?

Some info on the Wilwood pads here...

http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/Pads.mgi2

TCE's Wilwood "Street Sport" kit comes with Q pads but can be upgraded for the cost difference of other pads. Not having tried any of the others, I like them just fine.

Not for nothing, but I took a rental Intrepid up Pike's Peak a few years back. The darn thing wouldn't stay in 1st on the way back down, so I had to use the brakes almost all the way. A Park Ranger checks rotor temp with an infrared sensor at the bottom of the mountain and will make you pull over for 30 minutes if they are more than something like 350 Deg F... the Intrepid shot a 475 and were faded like mush by the time I pulled up to his hut. Not cool.

- JD

[G-Man]

I've seen some info lately about Baer having a problem with "warped rotors". Or a "warping problem" with Baer rotors and just wanted to set the record straight.

I spoke with Rick at Baer today. Since they have been casting their rotors for the last few years...there has NOT been a problem of "warped rotors" with Baer. What most people feel with high performance brakes and self-diagnose as "warped rotors" are buildup of film from the pads...which can easily be cleaned with seating the pads again by making 3-4 60 MPH stops, according to Rick.

If you want an education about brakes, feel free to give Rick a call at 602.233.1411 ext. 24 and he'll be glad to help you.

I just hate to see missinformation out there on what I feel, and experts that I've spoken with feel, is the finest braking system for your Marauder.

And BTW, according to Rick...Baer is the ONLY brake company that he knows of that provides a unconditional LIFETIME WARRANTY against rotor warpage.

Todd,

Does anyone know what the buildup of film is caused by? I have had this issue, warped Baer rotors/ pad buildup. I'm my case it was severe, and was only corrected by trueing the rotors. My front rotors (both of them) were, in fact, warped when they were placed on the lathe by my machanic. The problem has not reoccurred to date. In reguard to the unconditional warranty. When my mechanic notified Baer, their responce was that I don't drive my car hard enough. I find it quite interesting that warpage can be cured from further abuse. I think that I should call Rick and get his impressions.

G-man

[TAF]

Call Rick, tell him you are a friend of Todd Fisher in Atlanta...and you'll be well taken care of. :up:

[G-Man]

Call Rick, tell him you are a friend of Todd Fisher in Atlanta...and you'll be well taken care of. :up:

Will do :up: . Thank you Sir.

G-man.

[Zack]

I have recently figured out on my own the major cause of these brake problems from Baer. I know this because I was victim to it, for 5 long months.
The way I see it, Baer has sold 3 different styles of rotors. The very first brake kits came with superb rotors in my mind, no problems.
The early Kenny Brown cars got these and have had nothing negative to report. When I say early, I mean the first couple.
Next came the rotors I had on my car. You can easily identify them because they have 5 holes drilled in a row instead of 4. There is also what I like to call 'webbing' in between the rotor faces. On these particular rotors, there are 32 webs. These rotors were nothing but problems for me.
Well, after 5 long months of pathetic, shaky braking, I received a new set.
The new rotors have 4 holes drilled in a row instead of 5, and 48, yes 48 'webs'.
That is 16 more than the previous rotors. Do ya think thats gonna cut down on warpage, yeah I thought so. So I got the run around, but in the end Im very pleased. Check your rotors, huh?

[martyo]

Call Rick, tell him you are a friend of Todd Fisher in Atlanta...and you'll be well taken care of. :up:

That just won't work for Zack.

:rofl:

[Todd TCE]

A couple of comments on brake pads from my seat.

The Wilwood kits for the MM come with Wilwood's Polymatrix Q compound pad. This pad is made by Raybestos under the Quietstop name. Thus; Q pad.

While I cannot prove it, and WW denies it, I'm competely convinced that there was a change to this pad about a year ago. For the longest time I had zero comments on this pad with regard to any issue of pad transfer or build up. However....(and strangely after a few weeks 'out of stock' situation) later orders of this pad have been a bit hit and miss with regard to transfer build up.

I made my point very well known to WW about this and they assure me (us) that this is not the case....They did however acknowledge that they felt a number of their customers have not gotten the Q pad hot enough during bed in process. This I'll assume on some of thier kits like the Vette or Mustang etc. etc. Hmmm.

With this information at hand I have personally put on four kits of late (ok, last four months) here in Phoenix (MINI, GTO,SS, Magnum) with the Q pad and have made a point of trying to destroy these pads! Hasn't happened. But what I have made a point of doing is as they also suggest; run them in very hard. In fact one Lightning owner forgot and left them on for an Autocross event, and liked them! They get stickier as the temp goes up and he noted his second lap they bit harder. There's guy with some good feedback.

Too many folks just don't bed pads hard enough. Period. Stop babying them. Stop treating them like fine china. Stop trying to save them!

Why? How? What? The bottom line is that pads need to go through a bedding process and this includes both a curing process for the pad binding agents as well as a heat cycle for the rotor. All TCE rotors now go through a secondary heat treat or stress relief process to help this as well. The pads need the same attention. You'll note that many pad suppliers offer "Dyno Bedded Pads"- this is simply a pad run in on the brake dyno for this same reason.

Take the car out when new and do the 45-10-45-10-45-10 runs over and over for about 10+ minutes. Don't park it. Run it now again from 60-5-60-5 a few times. Now run it from about 80-0 a couuple of good hard times. Don't call me until you have smoke billowing from the front rotors....Seriously. I run in kits on a side road for cross traffic concerns, (don't tell Mac its a 30 zone) and do the 80-0 stop in front of a few buildings where folks just stare when the car stops with a cloud of blue smoke off the front wheels. The rotors need to go from zinc, to silver, to golden, to blue to near chrome in appearance in time. This is normal. Blue rotors are being seasoned not hurt.

Ok, so why all this? This has PROVEN to cure the pad, season the rotor and burn off the zinc plating where the pad runs. Ah, Zinc. The greatest bling-bling added to brakes in the past five years. It adds what I call "box appeal", meaning it looks great when you take it out of the box. From there it does little. Yes it stays on only the part of the rotor where the pad has not scuffed it off. But....during the scuffing much of the zinc is building up as a boudary layer between the pad and the rotor! Not good. On one set of WW rotors of late it took longer than usual to burn throgh this plating. And it showed when I got done too. Four sessions of bedding before I was completely happy with the pedal feel. And guess what; no more zinc!

Anyhow, I hope this has offered some insight as to why pad bedding is so important. Just remember; heat is your friend when it comes to big brakes.