Traction control

[Smokie]

There has been some question about traction control been available: Here is the sticker on available dealer stock at a local dealer.

Disclaimer: This window sticker is only representative of the information contained on an actual window sticker, and may or may not match the actual window sticker on the vehicle itself. Please see your retailer for further information.

Vehicle Description VIN 2MEHM75V83X 664006
GRAND MARQUIS 2003 MARAUDER 4-DR
4.6L SEFI DOHC V8 ENGINE
ELECTRONIC AUTO O/D TRANS Exterior
BLACK CLEARCOAT
Interior
DARK CHARCOAL NUDO LEATHER BUCKET SEATS



Standard Equipment INCLUDED AT NO EXTRA CHARGE

SAFETY/SECURITY
. PERSONAL SAFETY SYSTEM
. EMERGENCY TRUNK RELEASE
. SECURILOCK ANTI THEFT SYS
. AUTOLAMP SYS/BATTERY SAVER
FUNCTIONAL
. ANTI-LOCK BRAKES
. POWER ADJUSTABLE PEDALS
. REMOTE KEYLESS ENTRY
. POWER 4-WHEEL DISC BRAKES
. DUAL PISTON FRONT CALIPERS
. SPEED SENSITIVE VARIABLE
ASSIST POWER STEERING
. PERFORMANCE HANDLING PKG
. W-RATED BSW TIRES
. ELEC AUTO TEMP CONTROL
. 18" POLISHED FORGED WHEELS
. FRONT/REAR STABILIZER BAR
. REAR PRECISIONTRAC SUSPENS
. TRACTION CONTROL,ALL SPEED
EXTERIOR
. DUAL POWER HEATED MIRRORS
. CORNERING LAMPS
INTERIOR
. SPEED CONTROL
. ANALOG SATIN ALUM GAUGES
. UNIQUE FLOOR MATS
. NUDO LEATHER SEATING
. AUDIOPHILE AM/FM CASS/CD
. LEATHER WRAPPED STR. WHEEL
. POWER WINDOWS AND LOCKS
. DUAL CUPHOLDERS
. 8-WAY PWR DRIVER/PASS SEAT
. DUAL ILLUMINATED VISORS
. AUTO DIM MIRROR
THE MERCURY COMMITMENT
. 3-YR/36,000 MILE WARRANTY
. 24-HR ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE
. 100000 MILE TUNE-UP INTRVL
. FRT/SIDE DRVR/PASS AIRBAGS

Price Information MSRP
STANDARD VEHICLE PRICE $33,770

Key Standard Equipment
MARAUDER - 300B
18" POLISHED FORGED ALUM WH
AUDIOPHILE SOUND SYSTEM
FLOOR SHIFT W/CONSOLE/STORA
DUAL EXHAUST SYSTEM
PERFORMANCE HANDLING SUSPEN
POWER ADJUSTABLE PEDALS

Optional Equipment
BLACK CLEARCOAT
DARK CHARCOAL NUDO LEATHER
.4.6L SEFI DOHC V8 ENGINE
.ELECTRONIC AUTO O/D TRANS
.P235/50R18 P245/55R18 AS BSW
JOB #2 ORDER
FRONT LICENSE PLATE BRACKET
CALIFORNIA EMISSIONS SYSTEM
6-DISC CD CHANGER/TRK MOUNTED 350
NON-CAL ORD FOR CAL REGISTRATN
__________
TOTAL VEHICLE & OPTIONS 34,120
DESTINATION & DELIVERY 725

TOTAL MSRP $34,845

Disclaimer: Option pricing will be blank for any item that is priced as 0 or "No Charge".





Estimated Annual Fuel Cost:$1,302 CITY MPG
17
HIGHWAY MPG
23 Vehicle Engine Information
2003 MERCURY MARAUDER, 4.6 LITER ENGINE, (F.F.S.) 8 CYLINDERS, FUEL INJECTION, CATALYST, ELECTRONIC 4-SPEED AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION.
Actual mileage will vary with options, driving conditions, driving habits and vehicle's condition. Results reported to EPA indicate that the majority of vehicles with these estimates will achieve between 14 and 20 mpg in the city and between 19 and _ mpg on the highway.
For Comparison Shopping all vehicles classified as LARGE have been issued mileage ratings from 10 to 21 mpg city and 14 to 32 mpg highway.




Ford Extended Service Plan is the ONLY service contract backed by Ford and honored by over 5,100 Ford and Lincoln-Mercury retailers. Ask your retailer for prices and additional details or see our website at www.Ford-ESP.com

[martyo]

I am about to purcahse a new '03 MM. I did not see the Traction Control on the Sticker and the dealer didn't have any real answer oin this issue. Any thoughts from you guys would be appreciated. Also, any thoughts on my impending purchase would also be appreciated.

[Directedby]

I think Mercury needs to move the early 2003 models first with no TC.

[beemer]

My sticker makes no mention of Traction Control, if the car was so equipped, there should be a switch to the left of the steering wheel next to the switch for the power pedals. If no switch, no traction control.

MercuryVehicles.com website, Marauder section says:


Standard four-channel ABS helps maintain steering control in severe braking situations, under a variety of road conditions. Sensors detect wheel lockup and automatically "pump" the brakes several times per second. To improve braking performance under more normal conditions, Marauder's ABS incorporates Electronic Brake Force Distribution (EBD) to limit rear-wheel slippage, reducing the need for ABS activation. EBD operates without "pumping" the brakes, using minimal brake valve activity - as a result, you may never notice it working. But it is.

That's as close as they come to any mention of traction control. I'd be willing to bet the sticker that say Traction control is a typo.

Best,

Paul:D

[Mark McQuaide]

W rates tires? Mine are ZR rated. Did they "decontent" the tires?

[martyo]

Bottom line for me is, "is anyone so unhappy that they bought an MM?"

While I am definitely buying this for the fun of it, I would hate to be disspointed!:help:

[beemer]

While I am definitely buying this for the fun of it, I would hate to be disspointed

Stanley, if you have driven and liked the Marauder, I do not think you will be disappointed. What else is out there like it? Nothing...............
Buy and enjoy, fact is no matter what you have, someone else will have something faster, or better equipped. Keep your eyes on this side of the fence and enjoy your possible purchase.

Best,

Paul:D

[martyo]

Paul:

I didn't mean to suggest that I would be dissapointed because someone else has a better toy. I am a firm believer that its not just the toy, but how you play with it!

I just wasn't sure if someone out there had such huge problems with an MM that I should stay away.

I have a 2000 Durango R/T (5.9 and tricked up). It's a lot of fun, but my girlfriend (fiance) says can't see over the steering wheel and she keeps slipping off of the phonebooks I put on the seat for her, so it is time for a change.

No doubt I will finish negotiating with the dealer on Monday and spend my next day off enjoying my new car!

By the way, the screen name is for one of my dogs (Stanley). My name is Marty.

Thanks again for the help and input.

[RF Overlord]

^^^what Beemer said^^^

I love mine, and the potential it has...there's no fun in buying a car that's absolutely perfectly complete in every way...any nitwit with the cash can buy one of those...I, like most of the members of this forum, like to make my cars better, and more distinctive, with my own hands.

The MM gives me a damn good start...

[jgc61sr2002]

As Logan stated in a previous thread all MM"s manufactured after Oct.9,2002 have traction control. The early MM"s are designated on the window sticker as Marauder 300A and the ones after Oct 9, 2003 are 300B. All 300B Marauders have T.C. as stated on the window sticker. John P.S Thanks Logan for this site,It's the best.

[martyo]

Thanks for the input. I did not know about the distinction between the "A" and "B" designation. This will come in handy when I am back on the telephone with the dealers tomorrow.

[Directedby]

Here is a picture of the 2003 MM WITH Traction Control. You will see the TC switch next to the pedal adjustment switch.

It was made in November.

I think the difficulty getting one with TC now is that they have too many MM's to move without it.

Mercury might not ship the newer ones with TC until the earlier ones move.

[martyo]

What to do then? Do I proceed with the purchase of an "A" designated model and just kick the mess out of the dealer on pricing???? Is the traction control worth the wait (which may convert into a price issue if I can really can get the dealer down on a no traction control model??

[Beadhead]

As far as seeing over the steering wheel. I'm somewhat vertically challenged at 5'7" and the height adjustable seat gives me great visibility, so I doubt if you'll find any problems in that area.

As far as traction control goes, ALL Canadain MM's come with standard with TC, for good reason. If you live in a snowbelt area, I'd definately wait to get a TC equipped MM, otherwise not.

[BISHOPSS95]

Traction Control?

I understood the reason for 4.10's and a chip was to lose the control?

Bwahahahahahahaha

:flamer:

[SergntMac]

My .02 cents?

Height challenged? I'm not tall enough for this car myself, and I really appreciate the adjustable pedals. Between that, and the highly adjustable seat and steering column, I can dial in just the right seating for what I'm doing at the time. No dead pedal yet, but that's only a matter of priorities. Nonetheless, I can get my Indy car seat of the pants feeling at the push of a few bottons.

As for the Traction Control, under some cir***stances, it can work against the benefits of a Limited Slip differential and become a problem. Don't let that keep you from the overall experience of ownership, this is one fine car, a remarkable drive. For me, the T/C was as important as tinted windows, something I can live without.

I'd like to hear more about the W rated tires, sup wid dat?

StanleyK, my advice is to negotiate a low as you can on the oldest car in stock, and don't forget to check other dealers within reasonable driving distance for comparasion too. You can buy one any where and get service close to home. So, buy one, mod it with the basic Reinhart package, and enjoy the time of your life.

Road trip to the Poconos for the honeymoon?

Okay, a nickle's worth...cha-ching.

[cyled]

My .02 rational why I did not care I don't have TC.

I have had mine since Dec 20th in Indiana. We have had a fair amount of snow. I have some weight in the back and with the bigger tires on the back, I am having no problems getting around. I have been driving for 20 years and started with a 67 Impala SS Convertable. All my cars except for my 97 CV did have TC (I had one front wheel drive car for 8 months and got read of it for a Mustang). The CV was only good from 15 to 30 mph anyway. That is why the advertise all speed traction control, did not use to be that way.

If you leave it stock, the setup with the high Torque converter keeps the tires from spinning, unless you power break or really really try hard. If you start with the add ons, you will go through back brakes anytime you start off hard and the tires start slipping which kicks in TC, so you will probably keep it off anyway.

So, my point to a long story, weight in the trunk, starting off in 2 second gear and driving with good judgement you can get around very well. Other then winter driving, why do you need traction control in these cars? As much driving as I do, I see more front wheel drive cars in the ditches than I do anything.

[Mark McQuaide]

This car goes just fine in snow without TC. I know, I've had it in several inches of the stuff here in SE PA and it pulled up hills without spinning. The M&S tires help alot.

[SaxGuy]

Here’s my .02! I'm a firm believer in traction control when it comes to driving in slippery conditions with rear wheel drive. My 1990 POS Buick handles well without the TC, but I’ve owned a 96 Camaro that handled poorly due to no TC. When I bought my 99 TransAm it came with TC, and it was an absolute pleasure to drive it in rainy weather and even snow. I know TC isn’t for everybody, but it is a great feature and when the time comes for me to purchase my MM (which should be soon) I'm going to get it with TC. If this means I wait till the summer to get it, so be it. The bottom line is if you want it wait for it. Since MM's aren’t moving in the sales department, I'm sure you will get one pretty cheap even with TC.

[FordNut]

Another consideration is that the cars with t/c are later production and will have a space-saver type spare instead of the full-size spare that comes with the early ones.

[MassMarauder]

stanley
Unless you're holding out for other options like heated seats or different interior/exterior colors I wouldn't get hung up on TC...especially with the deals that are out there now.
I don't run mine in the snow so I didn't care about the TC. My advise is to buy a winter beater and keep the MM under cover for the winter.

[SaxGuy]

Thats another good point, but the dealer I went to said that he could give me a full sized spare even though it comes with a space saver tire as an incentive to buy.

[TAF]

Mark,

See chart below for speed ratings per your question of "W" rated tires...

Speed Rating - Miles/Hour - Kilometers/Hour - Typical Use
N=87 MPH, 140km/h, Spare Tires
P=93 MPH, 150km/h
Q=99 MPH, 160km/h, Winter, LT Tires Cars
R=106 MPH, 170km/h, LT Tires
S=112 MPH, 180km/h
T=118 MPH, 190km/h
U=124 MPH, 200km/h
H=130 MPH, 210km/h, Sport Sedans
V=149 MPH, 240km/h, Sports
Z=149 MPH, 240km/h and over, Sports Cars
W=168 MPH, 270km/h, Exotic Sport Cars
Y=186 MPH, 300km/h, Exotic Sport Cars

Hope this helps.

[Smokie]

Not really sure why, if there is a shortage of vehicles with t/c they would send some to Florida. I don't need it or want it, but they should be shipped to states where they would benefit the owners. Go figure.

[SaxGuy]

Florida is too beautiful for Traction control!

[FordNut]

But Florida is a great place for a sunroof and that option became available at the same time traction control became standard.

[SaxGuy]

A moonroof is nice anywhere! Thats one option I'm debating on. Still dont know if it will be manual or automatic.

[martyo]

I really appreciate everyone's input. No doubt I will be playing this through my head until tomorrow when I can work the dealer over for some more price concessions.

As to the TC, it appears that there are two camps (what a surprise!). I think I'll trade the TC against the price concessions that I am going to try to get.

Interestingly, when I was at the dealer yesterday, he was giving me the "you better hurry up, this is the last one" jive. Now I have found at least four within 45 minutes!! And they say lawyers are bad!?!

I was commenting about the moonroof issue to my girlfriend and said that it would look great on this car. Has anyone got any experience with adding an aftermarket roof?

By the way, the MM I looked at came with the W rated tires and a full size spare. I take this as a plus.

[SaxGuy]

In the members picture section there are some photos of after market moon-roofs that look quite nice.

[metroplex]

I have Trac Control on my 00 Vic. It also has a Detroit TrueTrac (Torsen differential). The TC can only benefit the TrueTrac because of how the torsen differential works.

If I get stuck on a LOT of mud or ice where one tire totally loses traction, I'd normally have to apply the brakes so the differential could apply 2-3 times the torque of the spinning tire to the gripping tire. Of course when its lost all traction, 3 times 0 = 0. but if you apply the brakes, you'd get torque and it can shift that to the gripping wheel. HOWEVER since we do not have 4WD or AWD, we get the nasty weight shifting that occurs with braking on slippery surfaces as well as the fact the front brakes engage.

Here's where TC can theoretically benefit us at under 35 mph. It can apply the brakes to whichever tire that is slipping bad and off we go.

Of course with a Trac-Lok, it uses clutches to lockup the wheels. you can eventually burn out the clutches if you let the TC fight against the LSD.

So for your cases, I would recommend disabling it. Just short the two wires that lead to the TC switch and ignore the light. That's the official method of disabiling the TC on 98-up CVPIs that actually have TC.
:)

But for the Torsen differentials, it can theoretically be totally beneficial in cases of need.

I drove with the TC engaged on ice and snow. It only engaged once or twice - I had crappy Eagle LS tires w/ the Torsen and the car was driving quite fine on the slippery surface. I didn't see why it had to actuate but it did, and I didn't feel it affecting my speed much. I guess the computer saw one wheel was slipping TOO much and applied the ABS for that wheel. This is good for a Torsen becuase there's more torque on that wheel which gets shifted to the gripping wheel ;)

I almost slipped on the same ice myself on foot, but the car rode fine. :)

BTW if you lift the rear of my Vic in the air and rotate the wheels with the shifter in Neutral to test the differential, the Torsen will act like an open differential. I believe on the TRaction-Lok units bind the wheels together so they all rotate in the same vehicle direction (i.e. rotate left rear in the forward direction, right rear rotates in the same forward direction). WIth the Torsen/TrueTrac, it works like an open differential.

From what I've seen, and from what I've heard from other Panther owners that installed TrueTracs, these differentials SHOULD have been OE limited slip units and NOT the TRaction-Lok.

Of course the Traction-Lok and Eaton are more durable for high torque and high shock drag racing (clutches burn out instead of helical gear damage), but for auto-xing and street driving, the Torsen is king. :)

[RCSignals]

Charlie, as you know, the only CV/GMs to come from the Factory with the trac-loc are the Marauder with it standard, and the Police Interceptor with it as an option.
It isn't even an option on the others.

Whether trac-loc or truetrac is superior is simply a matter of opinion

[Colin]

It's a matter of opinion, but also required uses. For drag racing you'll want a locker, for street strip a clutch or cone type is king while auto-x'ing Torsen is the ****. It's all in what you do.

Colin

[RCSignals]

Which is why the Marauder and PI get a trac-loc

[Mark McQuaide]

Todd - thanks for the info on the tire ratings. I can't keep track of that stuff.

[metroplex]

For high torque drag racing, go with a locker or clutch type LSD such as the Traction-Lok, Powr-Lok, Trak-Loc, or Eaton. Auburn sucks. :) Non-rebuildable clutch LSDs suck.

For auto-x or street, any of the above SANS the locker will run great along with a Torsen differential. However the Torsen is king becuase there are no clutches to rebuild, it just uses helical planetary worm gears with two pinion gears. The only drawback is you don't get 100% lockup. I haven't run into any problems on ice or light snow with crappy Eagle LS tires.

But yes its a matter of opinion. But the Torsen differential is the best bang for the buck LSD for auto-xing and the street. $283 is only about $50 more than a new Ford Traction-Lok.

The 2003 Marauder and the CVPIs only got Traction-Lok (option for the CVPI). If I had to get a new differential (and I did) I would have gone for the TrueTrac just because it was only slightly more expensive and doesnt require rebuilding. With a Traction-Lok, the more burnouts you do the faster you will need to rebuild it. People rebuild it from 12,000 miles to 80,000 miles all depending on their driving style.

Mustangs run anything from Eatons, Auburns, Detroit Lockers, Trac-Lok (although most of them swap to the Locker after their 3rd Traction-Lok), TrueTracs, to Torsen T-2Rs, etc...

The point being, the All-Speed Electronic Traction Control applies ABS only at speeds under 35 mph. Above that, it will affect engine management to reduce torque/horsepower and spark to limit the amount of torque going to the rear wheels.

So for low-traction conditions like driving on mud or something, the trac ctrl will theoretically augment the Torsen differential by applying only the rear brakes in a worst case scenario. Like I said, driving on snow and ice, I only got the Trac Ctrl to come on briefly once or twice.

I was pissed Ford never offered the Traction-Lok as an option for my Vic, but I'm glad they didn't cause I got something better for my application.

[metroplex]

How many splines do the Marauder axles have?

Torsen makes their T-2s and T-2Rs in 31 spline flavors only for the Ford 8.8"

The T-2R uses both clutches and planetary worm gears for adjustable torque bias performance (add or remove clutches) and better lockup.

The AM General Hummer (not the H2 crap) used to have a Torsen T-1 Differential. THe owner's manual states that if one wheel is in the air or loses total traction, simply apply the brakes to apply torque to that airborne wheel and it would apply 3-5 (different bias ratio) that torque to the gripping wheel.

With traction-lok i think you just go straight in the snow or slightly sideways when you stop (that's what I hear from 400+ hp T-birds and Mustangs) due to the nature of the Traction-Lok differential. But it does provide much better lockup, which is probably why it tends to go straight in the snow.

[Macon Marauder]

Personally, I recognize the benefits of traction control, but don't want it. And I'm glad my Marauder doesn't have it.

My wife's Windstar had it and it crapped out at less than 60,000 miles. It would have cost $2000 to fix. Traded that puppy in on a van without TC.

I know it's apples and oranges, but still - how much you reckon it would cost to fix TC on Marauder?

Not interested...

[Colin]

Originally posted by metroplex
How many splines do the Marauder axles have?

28. Exactly the same rear end as any mid '99-'00 PI w/posi.

Colin

[1badcar]

I picked up my MM on Dec. 19, 2002. I have traction control and a full sized spare. The on/off switch is located in the trunk near the cd disc changer.

[WolfeBros]

1badcar......the switch you describe is for turning off the rear air suspension. Traction control switch will be on the dashboard right next to the switch that moves the pedals back and forth.

[metroplex]

I know it's apples and oranges, but still - how much you reckon it would cost to fix TC on Marauder?
"Fix" the traction control? It's part of the ABS system and is tied to the PCM to manage torque.

The only way for you to break the TC is for the PCM to fry, the ABS module to malfunction, AND for the IC's related to the TC to fry... highly unlikely on a Panther.

I use the Trac Ctrl so that it applies the brake faster than i could modulate it. This is useful for unlocking my axles when trying to turn on snow and ice with my TrueTrac differential.

[David Morton]

Wow metro, you sure take your time before you respond. Two years since that last post and now you finally have a well researched comment. Good show! I like a patient, thorough man.

[metroplex]

I try my best! :bandit: