head light question

[scareme]

I have the silver stars in my car and have noticed a white residue on the out side of the lens. i was wondering if this is a result of the bulbs or if it is just a manufacturing problem. the white residue (fog-like) will not wash off almost like it is burned plastic. i will be taking down for replacement under warantee and will put the oem back in when i do. the main question is has anyone else come across something like this and if so is it the silver stars that are doing it. :help:

[Silver_04]

Check this out LINKY (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11926)

I've had Silverstars in for almost year and have had no problems.

[Smokie]

I had the same problem and both headlight assemblies (under warranty) were replaced, problem has not returned.
It is not your bulbs.

[67435animal]

I have the silver stars in my car and have noticed a white residue on the out side of the lens. i was wondering if this is a result of the bulbs or if it is just a manufacturing problem. the white residue (fog-like) will not wash off almost like it is burned plastic. i will be taking down for replacement under warantee and will put the oem back in when i do. the main question is has anyone else come across something like this and if so is it the silver stars that are doing it. :help:

It's not the bulbs. There is a clear coating on the lense. If you want, buy some Meguiar's plastic cleaner and see whether that cleans them up.

Bob

[scareme]

Sorry for the delay. Thanks for the help next question, should i put oem bulbs in before bringing to the dealer or leve the SS in?

[Smokie]

Sorry for the delay. Thanks for the help next question, should i put oem bulbs in before bringing to the dealer or leve the SS in?
Put in originals, don't give the dealer an excuse to deny coverage.

[scareme]

Put in originals, don't give the dealer an excuse to deny coverage.

Good deal, thats what I was thinking! :2thumbs:

[Silver_04]

Put in originals, don't give the dealer an excuse to deny coverage.

That plus if you don't swap your Silverstars out you may never see them again when they change the lamp assemblies.

[SergntMac]

This is another example of "modular" repair, most common when repairs are covered by warranty. Don't take it personal, or, hold it against the servicing dealer. They are in the middle on this, K?

The replacement headlight pod comes with an authorized bulb in place, so, the wrench doesn't have to fiddle with that. Because he doesn't have to fiddle with that, you get a new headlight pod, and lose your SilverStars...Why?

There are two reasons why. One is that modular repair reduces the labor invested (and billed for) by the servicing dealer. Two is that it gives Ford a chance to inspect the bulbs used by the owner, where a discovery of unauthorized bulbs leads to a rejection of the servicing dealer's warranty claim. This rejected claim will come back to you as a customer, "the owner," several months later because the servicing dealer isn't going to eat the claim themselves. Been here...Did this...Trust me.

If you deliver your MM to a dealer with Silverstars (or any unauthorized headlight bulb) in place, you will come to pay for your new headlight pods...Guaranteed. IMHO...Pull your custom (Silverstars, what ever) bulbs before you deliver your MM to the servicing dealer. If it ain't an OEM authorized bulb in place when the pod gets back to Ford, you will pay for the repair...Someday.

[Donny Carlson]

...a discovery of unauthorized bulbs leads to a rejection of the servicing dealer's warranty claim. This rejected claim will come back to you as a customer, "the owner," several months later because the servicing dealer isn't going to eat the claim themselves. Been here...Did this...Trust me.

If you deliver your MM to a dealer with Silverstars (or any unauthorized headlight bulb) in place, you will come to pay for your new headlight pods...Guaranteed. IMHO...Pull your custom (Silverstars, what ever) bulbs before you deliver your MM to the servicing dealer. If it ain't an OEM authorized bulb in place when the pod gets back to Ford, you will pay for the repair...Someday.
And how on Earth are they gonna collect? Send a bill?

When my headlamp assembly was replaced, it had a silverstar in it. When the new assembly came in, my tech REMOVED the silvestar and replaced it with the bulb that came in the assembly. If the tech is going to remove the assembly anyway, swapping out the bulbs is not an unreasonable request, and considering the dealer is the one who would get heat about the silverstars before the owner, I speculate the tech -- or service manger -- wouldn't have a problem with the swap.

Even if they didn't, and the silverstars made it back to Ford, how could the bulb be related to clearcoat failure or misapplication at the factory?

IMO, I don't think Silverstars is an issue.

1) Steve Babcock, who encouraged me to have the lamp assembly replaced under warrantee after examining it at MVII said nothing about it, and I had told him I had replaced OEM bulbs with silverstars.

2) The service writer at Team had to send photos of the assemble with the lights on and off from different angles. I told him about the silverstars. He said it had no bearing on the claim.

3) The tech swapped them at my request no prob.

[SergntMac]

And how on Earth are they gonna collect? Send a bill? When my headlamp assembly was replaced, it had a silverstar in it. When the new assembly came in, my tech REMOVED the silvestar and replaced it with the bulb that came in the assembly. If the tech is going to remove the assembly anyway, swapping out the bulbs is not an unreasonable request, and considering the dealer is the one who would get heat about the silverstars before the owner, I speculate the tech -- or service manger -- wouldn't have a problem with the swap. Even if they didn't, and the silverstars made it back to Ford, how could the bulb be related to clearcoat failure or misapplication at the factory? IMO, I don't think Silverstars is an issue. 1) Steve Babcock, who encouraged me to have the lamp assembly replaced under warrantee after examining it at MVII said nothing about it, and I had told him I had replaced OEM bulbs with silverstars. 2) The service writer at Team had to send photos of the assemble with the lights on and off from different angles. I told him about the silverstars. He said it had no bearing on the claim. 3) The tech swapped them at my request no prob.
Well, here's another example of someone adding their own pastel to a post. A lot of this stuff, is stuff I never said, let's clear that up?

Donny...1) Yes, a dealer will bill you. As I recall it, the pods alone are somewhere around 88 bucks each, (my cost, I get a discount) not including install labor. No dealer I know of will eat a repair bill of 200 bucks or more, and when that claim is rejected by Ford several months later, the dealer will turn to the customer. Should you not pay, don't go back to that dealership, a mechanic's lein is very effective and once the car is back in house, they don't have to release it until they get paid past monies owed. Skip tracers? Debt collectors? Ummm...I suppose some dealers may go that far, and if you want to fight the principle of it all with the warranty machine, it will be on your dime, not theirs. You will pay...Sooner or later.

2) I never said Silverstars (or any aftermarket bulb) are responsible for this issue. Indeed, any visual inspection would reveal that. However, faced with replacing thousands of headlight pods nationwide, some Ford bean counter somewhere figured out that if the headlight pod has been modified in any way, they can escape paying the frieght for this subcontractor defect that will come to cost them untold money down the road.

Moreover, these pods were custom made for the MM, let's see now...11,000 some MMs sold, with two pods per, at 88 bucks each, not including shipping, handling, and install labor....Ouch! I'm sure some Ford employee somewhere got an "employee of the month" something for addressing this issue with cost saving ideas. Yes, Ford could charge that back to the subcontractor, but it's faster, easier and cost effective to charge it back to the dealer, and on to the customer, who "modded" the product from it's original design, and let you take it to court. The Magnuson-Moss notwithstanding, the onus is on the owner to fight back.

3) Donny...Your experience with your dealer, and any extra effort they may put forth on your behalf does not set policy for any other Ford-L/M dealers out there. Indeed, the fact that you did get special treatment leaves you to speculate from that point forward. I'm not speculating about what could, or should happen in a perfect world. I'm sharing fact.

Yes, the Silverstars have no bearing on the issue, but, leave one in place and see what follows? I just hope another member here doesn't clip your advice from here and throw it in the face of an uncooperative dealership claiming "you're supposed to change my bulbs" or, seek replacement costs for the aftermarket bulb when one slips away from him.

My experience had been quite the opposite and my advice posted ^ there is specifically simple to just avoid all this by removing any aftermarket bulb that may be in place. A) You may lose an expensive bulb, (perhaps not just one) and B) the residual evidence may come to haunt you.

When I had my pods replaced, the directions of the TSB were clear, to R&R the assembly and return that. I find it odd that numerous pics had to be submitted to Ford for examination BEFORE they approved the repair, and even more odd that Ford supplied the digital camera to take the pics. The goofier this gets, the more apparent it becomes that Ford is serious in saving money here. The techs and S/M at my dealer were shaking their heads "WTF is their problem?" Money...IMHO.

Just my .02C, sorry I had to spell everything out...Again.

[cyclone03]

HUM....

I had a pod replaced and it came without a bulb...

How do I know?
Got a ticket the very night I had the pod replaced under warrenty!
And guess what?
A big hole the bulb should have been in,and no it didn't fall out the plug was pushed through the hole!

Got lots of free stuff for that one.
12 point inspection my!@@.

[SergntMac]

Wow...Bummer.

Wrench have a short attention span?

[cyclone03]

Wow...Bummer.

Wrench have a short attention span?

You know I never realized how many people wearing ties work at a dealership...

[Cobra25]

I have the silver stars now for about 9 months and no problems at all.

[Silver_04]

clip... I find it odd that numerous pics had to be submitted to Ford for examination BEFORE they approved the repair, and even more odd that Ford supplied the digital camera to take the pics. The goofier this gets, the more apparent it becomes that Ford is serious in saving money here..clip

This may have been done so Ford can go to the headlamp supplier and make them pay up or ask them what they think happened. Yet, that all depends on the supplier/customer contract written. I've worked on products where the customer, i.e. Big Name Auto Mfgr., would eat warranty repair costs and then there are the other products where my company, i.e. Little Beat Down Supplier, had to eat the costs.

From my perspective I like the idea of the photos because it gives the supplier a chance to see the part because many times the actual parts never get back to the place of origin. However, in the places I worked we would sometimes get the photos, descriptive e-mails and/or the actual parts back from a field failure. Many times service writer and customer info is included as it just gets forwarded from the Big Name Auto Mfgr. Then the real fun begins. It's amazing how much stuff does actually make it back up the chain.

But you have brought up an interesting point. I wonder if Big Name Auto Mfgr's try to deny a claim and then make a supplier pay up as well. Now you have the car owner and the supplier paying Big Name Auto Mfgr. Double dipping...that would be dirty.

[jgc61sr2002]

This may have been done so Ford can go to the headlamp supplier and make them pay up or ask them what they think happened. Yet, that all depends on the supplier/customer contract written. I've worked on products where the customer, i.e. Big Name Auto Mfgr., would eat warranty repair costs and then there are the other products where my company, i.e. Little Beat Down Supplier, had to eat the costs.

From my perspective I like the idea of the photos because it gives the supplier a chance to see the part because many times the actual parts never get back to the place of origin. However, in the places I worked we would sometimes get the photos, descriptive e-mails and/or the actual parts back from a field failure. Many times service writer and customer info is included as it just gets forwarded from the Big Name Auto Mfgr. Then the real fun begins. It's amazing how much stuff does actually make it back up the chain.

But you have brought up an interesting point. I wonder if Big Name Auto Mfgr's try to deny a claim and then make a supplier pay up as well. Now you have the car owner and the supplier paying Big Name Auto Mfgr. Double dipping...that would be dirty.



I agree that the vendor that supplied FMC with the headlights has to eat the cost of replacing the them. IMO FMC may have to spring for the labor.

[Donny Carlson]

Well, here's another example of someone adding their own pastel to a post. A lot of this stuff, is stuff I never said, let's clear that up?
Here is what you said:


If you deliver your MM to a dealer with Silverstars (or any unauthorized headlight bulb) in place, you will come to pay for your new headlight pods...Guaranteed. IMHO...Pull your custom (Silverstars, what ever) bulbs before you deliver your MM to the servicing dealer. If it ain't an OEM authorized bulb in place when the pod gets back to Ford, you will pay for the repair...Someday.
That's what I understood...you were giving your opinion that if an MM is presented to a dealer with silverstars, you WILL wind up paying for the repair, eventually, when Ford rejects the claim.

Let's be clear on the topic - which is replacement of headlamp assemblies due to clear coat failure (i.e. the plastic turning white) and not condensed moisture in the lamps. The condensation problem TSB and related claims could be (COULD BE) hampered by installing silverstars, if only because the seal had been broken on the OEM lamp assemblies, and Ford could point to this as a factor in the moisture accumulating. But the clear coat problem would happen no matter what bulbs were installed, even if you never used the headlamps, because it's a function of exposure of the plastic over time. In this case - clear coat failure - I cannot imagine Ford would reject a claim because of aftermarket bulbs.

And I also very seriously doubt a dealer would chase after a customer to get paid for the lamp assembly. The owner presented his or her car to the dealer for warrantee service, it's the dealer's responsibility from that point on. If the dealer says "no way, Jose, you have aftermarket bulbs in there," then the owner has to decide to remove them and replace them with OEMS. But if a dealer accepts the car for warrantee service, submits the claim to Ford (which approves the claim) and then the claim is later rejected by Ford, I think the dealer takes that in the shorts, not the car owner. This is backed up by a post Ray made in another thread in which he said that dealers had to be careful about warrantee claims because they would have to eat any claim that Ford later rejected.

Also, with all this transmitting of digital photos to Ford, they never once ask the service writer to check the assembly for aftermarket bulbs?

Look, here's my take on it. You have a relationship with your dealer and service department such that you can ask them to swap out bulbs, then fine. If your dealer is such a hardass that changing out a bulb is a problem, then you should NOT mod your car until such time as it's out of warrantee, or be prepared to remove the mods and replace OEM parts, or (my choice) find a more reasonable place to have your car serviced.

[SergntMac]

Donny...Take a breath, get a good night's sleep, and I'll reply to your comments here early tomorrow...Until then, inhale...Please?

[SergntMac]

Okay...Slept on it.

Here is what you said:
I know what I posted Donny, and it's stated clearly ^ there. I find it sad you continue to misquote my original post and add your own meaning to my words.

Let's be clear on the topic - which is replacement of headlamp assemblies due to clear coat failure...(truncated)
Yes, let's be clear on the topic, and that's not it.

The cause of headlamp failure was never questioned in my post, and I still do not question it. Could be bad clearcoat, could be moisture, could be anything else, it doesn't matter, nor change my advice. My post made no mention of cause, other than to recognize that some here may be headed down the replacement path.

I suggested restoring OEM bulbs prior to visiting any dealer for warranty service, and highlighted why. This is the same advice we read when other mods are involved. Get the aftermarket stuff out, it may cause problems, and headlight bulbs are no different from a chip, or underdrive pullies. Again, it's apparent to me you have not read my post, or, choose to create points I have not presented, and only you know why you do this.

I cannot imagine Ford would reject a claim because of aftermarket bulbs. And I also very seriously doubt a dealer would chase after a customer to get paid for the lamp assembly...(truncated)
Donny...You have a very narrow view of the triangle between a customer, a servicing dealer, and Ford warranty money. Wasn't it enough that Ray (The Dealer) also mentioned rejected claims on headlight pods? His comment about "goldfish" is quite telling. Other than the money involved, I have no idea why Ford is rejecting claims and watching approvals closely. General rule of thumb is "if you mod it, it's your's," thus my post.

Your visit to a service department that accomodated you does not set policy for service departments nationwide. Things are much different in the real world, and my advice stands. Remove aftermarket bulbs before visiting a dealer, it will save you money and grief. Why is this bad advice, Donny?

I have an excellent relationship with my dealer, I'm a returning customer for many years now, including the purchase of five automobiles, and endless service at my expense. Still, they will not afford to absorb a rejected claim of $200 plus dollars as a matter of goodwill towards me, and I do not expect them to absorb it. My situation was resolved in the end, but once the claim was rejected, it came back to me as a bill, and I think it reasonable to expect this could happen to others if they do not take precautions.

You suggest the servicing dealer should "take it in the shorts" and I do not agree. Many of us here visit dealerships where we did not purchase our MMs, why should those dealerships pay for something they have nothing to do with? Neither the defective pod, the sale of your MM, or even the sale of the aftermarket bulb, involved the service department of that dealership. Why should they bear any expense when a customer modifies his automobile?

Whether the servicing dealer will change aftermarket bulbs, or, not, was not considered in my original post. However, I did strongly suggest not make assumptions here. If the servicing dealer doesn't know aftermarket bulbs are present, they will not change them simply because the replacement pods come with fresh OEM bulbs installed, in a "modular" repair kit with a special part number identified in the TSB.

This seems to be Ford's practice on TSB repairs. No matter what parts are involved, the repair kit has one part number, as was the case with my rear axles and bearings. That TSB called for one repair kit under one part number, with all the necessary parts included in that one kit. And this is how it happened to me, my pods were replaced under the TSB and an expensive set of bulbs installed by Kenny Brown (PIAA?) left with the old pods. I didn't think about it prior to the replacement, nor did I notice afterward, my bad. But, neither did the wrench, who later commented that he merely followed the TSB and swapped pods. Months later, a rejection, and a bill. Oops...

Things may be different in Chamelot, Donny, but to project your experience as "normal" to our membership here is highly misleading. It's just not that way in the real world, and all I posted was caution about that. Find fault with my advice and I'll respond, but please stop inventing opposing views.

[Donny Carlson]

I know what I posted Donny, and it's stated clearly ^ there. I find it sad you continue to misquote my original post and add your own meaning to my words.Misquoted? The first reply used the "quote" feature, the second I cut and pasted. There is no misquote.


I suggested restoring OEM bulbs prior to visiting any dealer for warranty service, and highlighted why. This is the same advice we read when other mods are involved. Get the aftermarket stuff out, it may cause problems, and headlight bulbs are no different from a chip, or underdrive pullies. Again, it's apparent to me you have not read my post, or, choose to create points I have not presented, and only you know why you do this. I have no nefarious motive. I am expressing my opinion that in this >specific< warrantee claim, the obvious and easy thing to do is to have bulbs swapped at the time the assemblies are being changed out. Seems like a lot of effort (change out silverstars for OEMS, tech changes assemblies, then change OEM bulbs out for silverstars) when swapping the bulbs when the assemblies are out is so simple and easy. Again, if this is a problem with a particular dealer, then I guess you'll have to swap them out in advance, then replace the OEM's later.


Donny...You have a very narrow view of the triangle between a customer, a servicing dealer, and Ford warranty money. Wasn't it enough that Ray (The Dealer) also mentioned rejected claims on headlight pods? His comment about "goldfish" is quite telling. Other than the money involved, I have no idea why Ford is rejecting claims and watching approvals closely. General rule of thumb is "if you mod it, it's your's," thus my post.]See, this is why I was responding to clear coat failure and not moisture in the assemblies. The context of Ray's post dealt with warrantee claims for moisture in the headlamps, but his point about a dealer having to eat a claim that is later rejected by Ford was the part I was referring to. Ray did not say "you better be careful, because if Ford rejects the claim, you, the owner, will be liable for the costs including labor." He said >the dealer< would eat the cost.



Your visit to a service department that accomodated you does not set policy for service departments nationwide. Things are much different in the real world, and my advice stands. Remove aftermarket bulbs before visiting a dealer, it will save you money and grief. Why is this bad advice, Donny?]I reject your assertion that warrantee claims at Team Ford are not "real world." They had to take pictures and transmit them to Ford, and waited for a warrantee claim approval before preceeding.

That said, there is nothing wrong with changing bulbs, and you advice is not, per se, bad. If somebody wants to do it, fine. It's their time, their car. Have fun.


My situation was resolved in the end, but once the claim was rejected, it came back to me as a bill, and I think it reasonable to expect this could happen to others if they do not take precautions.See now, it would have been a lot easier for a dense southern boy like me had you said this happened to you, and be forwarned. I went back and looked, and, silly me, I guess "been there, done that" flew right by me. So, you had a claim rejected and your dealer presented you with a bill, that you paid. Interesting.

Pity you didn' think to have the bulbs swapped.


You suggest the servicing dealer should "take it in the shorts" and I do not agree. Many of us here visit dealerships where we did not purchase our MMs, why should those dealerships pay for something they have nothing to do with? Neither the defective pod, the sale of your MM, or even the sale of the aftermarket bulb, involved the service department of that dealership. Why should they bear any expense when a customer modifies his automobile?]Team Ford and their techs make money from the labor on warrantee claims. I see this on their invoices when I see what Ford was billed for the work. I expect them, as professionals in the business for many years, to know how to handle a warrantee claim and get it successfully honored by Ford. Me, the customer, does not know this stuff, though I do my part by informing them what is or is not modified on the car. It's their call.... and their problem if they can't get the warrantee claim paid by Ford. I have an invoice that says "customer pay - $0.00" They have to eat the claim, well, that's the cost of doing business. Otherwise it's time for a trip to small claims court and we can tell the judge the story.


Things may be different in Chamelot, Donny, but to project your experience as "normal" to our membership here is highly misleading. It's just not that way in the real world, and all I posted was caution about that. Find fault with my advice and I'll respond, but please stop inventing opposing views.>sigh<

[SergntMac]

See now, it would have been a lot easier for a dense southern boy like me had you said this happened to you, and be forwarned. I went back and looked, and, silly me, I guess "been there, done that" flew right by me. So, you had a claim rejected and your dealer presented you with a bill, that you paid. Interesting. Pity you didn' think to have the bulbs swapped.
I do not consider you "a dense southern boy," Donny, quite the contrary. If I hinted at that in any way, I apologize, name-calling was not my intent.

Lots of good things come from argument, disagreement, and responsible exchange of opposing views between adults. Sadly, it's much too easy these days to turn any exchange into into hateful name-calling, mockery, and disrespect. I deal with this flotsam daily in my job, and it disturbs me that people resort to it. No one gains anything once this distraction is introduced into the discussion, opportunity for discovery and learning are lost for good.

For the record here, Donny, I do appreciate, and respect your acknowledgement of the facts as I stated them, thank you.

Yes, it's a pity I got caught up in this headlight pod mess, but it was a while back too, when the issue was new to us, and to L/M service departments. My intent here was to redirect other owner/members away from that, and I cannot explain right now how we came to work things out in my favor, but anyone of reasonable sanity should be able to make a good guess.

Well folks, how did we do? Did we make our points and share our thoughts without the customary bloodshed, name-calling, mockery and Moderator intervention? Or, did we bore y'all to death with the politeness of it all?

20 posts and 348 reads, was it bloody and vicious enough for y'all? Or, do we need to "bam! kick it up a notch?"

1 to 10 votes only, eh?

[Donny Carlson]

Well folks, how did we do? Did we make our points and share our thoughts without the customary bloodshed, name-calling, mockery and Moderator intervention? Or, did we bore y'all to death with the politeness of it all?

20 posts and 348 reads, was it bloody and vicious enough for y'all? Or, do we need to "bam! kick it up a notch?"

1 to 10 votes only, eh?
I think we did pretty good. Spirited, yes. I learned a couple things I didn't know before. It's pretty much run it's course unless somebody else has something to bring to the table.

[Silver_04]

Thread recap...

:help:
then
:blah: :blah: :blah:
and
:duel:
next
:argue:
on to
:hug2:
finally
:party:

Not too bad really. These smileys are worth their weight in gold.