Items to go with DR Chip

[Silver03MM]

Okay, heres the deal I'm planning on ordering a Dennis Chip but the car is mostly stock, except for a KN filter, is there anything else I have to order to go along with the basic chip?

[MM03MOK]

Yes. Give Dennis a call - he'll set you up right!

904.276.5003
Office Hours:
Mon. to Fri. 8a.m. - 5p.m.
Sat. 8a.m. - 12p.m.

[CRUZTAKER]

Oil of Olay.....for the smile wrinkles of course!:D

[Smokie]

Okay, heres the deal I'm planning on ordering a Dennis Chip but the car is mostly stock, except for a KN filter, is there anything else I have to order to go along with the basic chip?180* Thermostat
Motorcraft AWSFA12C plugs.

My results with 2 the items you mentioned and the 2 I suggest: 14.49 @ 97.51, temp 61* 60% hum. 60' altitude.

Modest cost, very satisfying results.

[RF Overlord]

^^^what Smokie said^^^

You won't get the full benefit of the chip if you don't also change the thermostat and plugs...

[bigslim]

^^^what Smokie said^^^

You won't get the full benefit of the chip if you don't also change the thermostat and plugs...
I don't want to start a "mine is better than yours" thread, but I have a SuperTuner Chip from Lidio and I didn't change the plugs or thermostat and it is just fine. My car turned very good dyno numbers and runs very well with just a chip and 410. I have found that the stock plugs and thermostat work just fine. If you want to spend the extra money on these items that is up to you.

[sailsmen]

The benefit of a tuner is you can return the stcok program and it does not leave any telltale signs.

[Smokie]

I don't want to start a "mine is better than yours" thread, but I have a SuperTuner Chip from Lidio and I didn't change the plugs or thermostat and it is just fine. My car turned very good dyno numbers and runs very well with just a chip and 410. I have found that the stock plugs and thermostat work just fine. If you want to spend the extra money on these items that is up to you.Darryl, I don't really know how much of a difference if any the plugs and stat make, but the parts I suggested cost less than $40 combined. In Michigan cooler plugs may be redundant, in Florida a cooler engine and plugs can mean the difference between detonation and not. I don't believe they make the car faster, I believe they increase the safety margin. I don't have gears and I have run faster at the track on just a Reinhart flash than many cars with gears and chip; but I believe the gears do improve the launch and would never question the fact....they do cost a little more than 40 bucks....Happy Thanksgiving my friend, to you and your family. Javier.:beer:

[MarauderMark]

Either one you pick.Your gonna love it.My stage I kit was chip(not going there) plugs , stat , sway bar , 4:10's total was $850.00.it was GREAT!!but not enough so i skipped over stage II and went to stage III . Either way keep us posted..:2thumbs:

[Dennis Reinhart]

Okay, heres the deal I'm planning on ordering a Dennis Chip but the car is mostly stock, except for a KN filter, is there anything else I have to order to go along with the basic chip?


Good plugs a 180 stat and 410 gears is the best solution

[CRUZTAKER]

I don't want to start a "mine is better than yours" thread, but I have a SuperTuner Chip from Lidio and I didn't change the plugs or thermostat and it is just fine.
Understood....but when the tune gets radical, and timing and such is adjusted to accomodate higher octane fuels, the cooler plugs and stat are recommended.

The stat is about $14, and the set of above mentioned Motorcraft plugs are less than $30 for the set.

If this is the direction you are going as far as tunes and such, do them, and do not second guess the decision.:D

Get 'er done Dennis!

[MikesMerc]

I don't want to start a "mine is better than yours" thread, but I have a SuperTuner Chip from Lidio and I didn't change the plugs or thermostat and it is just fine. My car turned very good dyno numbers and runs very well with just a chip and 410. I have found that the stock plugs and thermostat work just fine. If you want to spend the extra money on these items that is up to you.

I hear you Darryl. I've yet to see any verified performance gains from these swaps. Stats and plugs were considered "gimmicks" in the 5.0 mustang days. Not much has changed since.

That said, if it makes everyone sleep better at night, for $40, why not. There is no doubt that a colder plug can stave off detonation. A colder spark plug actually dissipates heat from the firing tip faster than a hotter plug. This helps lower the temperature in the cylinder and reduces the amount of preignition in some cases.

Bottom line is that if the engine tune is "pushed" a little aggressive with the timing, a colder plug can help.

As far as the stat...well I'm not sure what the point is. The motor in the marauder when it has reached full operating temp is well above the stat temp and is already full open. A cooler stat will only open sooner as the engine warms up....but once it is open, its open.

The stat change was big a few years ago for those guys at the drags who wanted the stat open sooner to keep things cooler in the staging lanes. But, in normal street driving at normal operating temps, it did nothing.

[sailsmen]

You guys up North have no idea the kind of heat we have. Less than 10 days ago 85* and 85% humidity!

This is the kind of conditions a cooler stat and cooler plugs are needed in.

In the 1970's BMW sent cars to the US with out enough A/C. They didn't beleive the Dealers complaints in the Deep South, afterall they tested in Death Valley. Well when they came here in August 98* and 98% they became believers! :coolman:

[MikesMerc]

EDIT - Not worth the trouble....

[sailsmen]

A member has a data recorder and reported the 180* stat does work, a thermostat opens and closes.

I viewed coolant temp readouts while my car was on the Dyno showing cooling temps always below 200*.

IT's the ambient temp that affects the transfer of heat from the cooling system. The heat is transferred from the radiator to the air.

My car Dyno almost identical peak Hp and TQ on the same dyno 16K miles latter and 75+ runs at the track later with the Denso plugs & 180* Stat, something is obviously working.

I realize a motor can develop more power as it lossens up. I have 36K on the car.

[bigslim]

You guys up North have no idea the kind of heat we have. Less than 10 days ago 85* and 85% humidity!

This is the kind of conditions a cooler stat and cooler plugs are needed in.

In the 1970's BMW sent cars to the US with out enough A/C. They didn't beleive the Dealers complaints in the Deep South, afterall they tested in Death Valley. Well when they came here in August 98* and 98% they became believers! :coolman:
Believe me, we get our fair share of hot weather here in the summer. Being around the lakes we get very humid weather. I feel that what ever anyone wants to spend on their car is their investment, not mine. I hope that when people read these forums they get the most information they can get and use it to their advantage.

[Dennis Reinhart]

It a proven fact that platinum plugs retain heat, the whole spark table is changed with our tuning, This is exactly why these plugs are not used in SC applications, and in a good custom tune, the files we use have been revised over and over on the dyno, and we have the timing dialed in.

What a lot of you do not understand is yes you can run just a tune with out plugs or a stat but your car will not make the full power it can in all weather conditions, if your in a hotter climate or you get less than a good tank of gas the car can spark knock or detonate or if the car is hot it can do the same so at WOT so the EEC will see this and it has a table for Knock retard and it will pull a full four degrees of timing so again its what ever you want.

When you call me I tell you what we have shown over the years that will make the best power gains that we know of, I like Denso Iridium plugs and like the Motorcraft copper plugs its you the customers call as to whether you want to buy them.

The stock Marauder thermostat opens later than the 180 stat, so the water temp in the radiator is of course going to be warmer, stock water operating temp is close to 205 degrees a good stat costs 13.00 because the stat opens sooner it does lower operating temp all these small things work together to optimize the car, if you don't want it that's OK its your choice.

Just like the misconception over 4:10 gears. Drive your car at 65 MPH with 3:55's the cars tach will show 2100 RPM drive it the same speed with 4:10's it spins 2400 RPM with good tuning and plugs and stat there is very little of any loss of MPG but the car is completely transformed its in a totally different power band, its like night and day if not, take it all off send it back I will give you a refund.


Bottom line is we have a lot of members that have carefully chosen there mods and have raised the cars RWHP and dropped there ET,' and we now have N/A Marauders running as fast as some SC cars to me that's amazing. :banana: :beer: :)

[MikesMerc]

LOL....I give up. Enjoy your cool running motor:)

[Silver03MM]

So Denso plugs or Motorcraft Plugs are the best and any kind of 180 degree stat

[Dennis Reinhart]

Its you choice some like Denso some do not but a good set of plugs and a 180 stat is a good idea, with the tuning call me any time I will help any way I can

[SergntMac]

I use the Denso IT-22 plugs and 180 stat, with the DR head cooling kit in place. I monitor my engine temps with a CarChipEX. I've done a lot of OTR driving last summer, long highway runs from tank full to tank dry, 75-90 MPH. I got 24 MPG, and my engine temps were a very stable 178-183 drgrees. No brag, just fact.

[MikesMerc]

I sure hope its not bragging cause its not that impressive:)

Long highway runs should always produce nice cool temps! ;)

[Dennis Reinhart]

I sure hope its not bragging cause its not that impressive:)

Long highway runs should always produce nice cool temps! ;)


Some of us routenly go to the track every little bit helps, and a car with a 180 stat will run cooler on the highway than one with a 195 stat if all other items in the cars cooling system are working properly Mike, now you have posted your opinion I respect that, so have a good Turkey day.

[fastblackmerc]

I'd do the colder plugs, colder thermostat, JLT's intake kit, underdrive pulleys & 4.10 gears to go along with the chip or programmer. I'm doing the same to my '04. In fact you'll need the reprogram after doing the 4.10's to correct the speedo. Contact JLT for the intake kit, your local FLAPS for the stat & plugs, I'd recommend the Steeda pulleys and I got my SCT9100 from Dennis.

:banana:

[MikesMerc]

Some of us routenly go to the track every little bit helps, and a car with a 180 stat will run cooler on the highway than one with a 195 stat if all other items in the cars cooling system are working properly Mike, now you have posted your opinion I respect that, so have a good Turkey day.

I know I can be a pain in the ass with my opinions at times, so thank you for the kind response :beer:

I was under the impression that the stock stat is a 188* spec. That's what Ford says anyway. So perhaps you can help me learn something. If the stock operating water temp is indeed around 205* as you say, than wouldn't both the colder 180* stat and the stock 188* stat be wide open? What is the cooling difference when both stats are wide open when seeing 205* water? This is where I simply cannot get how a cooler stat would help operating temps...especially in warmer climates when the water is even hotter.

I am not being cute here....I think that I must just be missing something that needs to be explained. If this is not the right place, just say so and we can discuss via PM. I really do wish to understand how it works.

As far as at the track...well I totally agree with you. I had stated such in a post that I deleted for fear it was causing ill feelings on the thread. Many guys, including me in my S Trim blown 5.0 stang, use a cooler stat to keep the car cooler at the track. But the purpose was to keep it cooler before it had a chance to reach higher operating temps during warm up cycle times... such as being in the staging lanes.

So the track purpose I get. I just don't understand how a cooler stat can improve cooling during normal operation when both stats would be wide open with 205* water.

Thanks:)

[sailsmen]

When my car was on the Dyno on a warm day, 75*+ the coolant temp ranged from 168*-198*, with only a few minutes between pulls.

[Dennis Reinhart]

The easiest way for me to explain this is this, a lot of later model cars have a 195 T Stat, so that means the stat will not open up till very close to that, this is the water temp in the block not the radiator, now once it does open up and the hot water leaves the block and starts flowing, the radiator will come up to operating temp, this normally is less than the block do to the cooling capacity of the radiator, the cars block will run around 205 degrees, in town traffic of course if you are on the highway at 65 MPH the air entering the radiator will cool the water down more if the water in the block cools down below the limits of the T. Stat it will partially close to bring the block back to the OEM operating temp.

Now if you add a cooler stat the stat will open sooner meaning the block is going to be at a lower operating temp, this is what we look for when were at the track were not running at a constant speed were on short bursts so we want cooler block temps especially since we are running added timing, the EEC actually has a spark table for coolant temp, so its all the small things you can do to optimize the car, I am not nearly as smart as JW he can more clearly explain this than I can but this is close to what he has told me, another example is take out the T Stat and it will make the car run cooler, this is not true under heavy load the water will go through the radiator to fast to dissipate heat and the car will over heat,

[CRUZTAKER]

I hope you get the answers you need Mike....cause I know where YOU are coming from. I have discussed this with you folks, including Lidio, and I totally understand your point of view.

But I also understand Dennis' as well. This isn't one of those useless take your money mods. It works, and it works for me. I cannot explain it to you how Dennis does, but I know it's working for me.

Lidio saw me put the cooler Motorcrafts in my car the day he tweaked my tune. He never gave me any impression otherwise whether I should or not. Perhaps you S/C'd cars don't need them. It sure won't be the first time a particular mod helped N/A cars, and did squat for S/C'd cars.

All I know is, I am pretty sensible, and I'll argue the value of $100 densos vs $30 motorcrafts all day long...but when a particular mod works for me, I push it to others as well. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH VENDOR VS VENDOR, and I hope this isn't where we're going.

The plugs and stat work for me, and damnit it's too bad I have nearly hit my N/A ceiling, cause I was coming for you next year....:P

Nothin' but love Mike, and all the Motorcity crew!

[stevengerard]

I'll be curious to try this out, I know on my big-block a lower temp t-stat does wonders, yet didn't do enough for me. Some folks recommended running no t-stat at all but as Dennis noted when on the expressway the water flowed so fast it didn't spend enough time in the radiator to dissipate the heat. So I put in a restrictor where the t-stat went. The coolant is always flowing but never too fast - this doesn't work for all cars but has worked for mine. I'm sure it’s the same with the MM, also thermostats aren't just opened or closed they open and close partially to control flow thus controlling temp.

[MikesMerc]

The easiest way for me to explain this is this, a lot of later model cars have a 195 T Stat, so that means the stat will not open up till very close to that, this is the water temp in the block not the radiator, now once it does open up and the hot water leaves the block and starts flowing, the radiator will come up to operating temp, this normally is less than the block do to the cooling capacity of the radiator, the cars block will run around 205 degrees, in town traffic of course if you are on the highway at 65 MPH the air entering the radiator will cool the water down more if the water in the block cools down below the limits of the T. Stat it will partially close to bring the block back to the OEM operating temp.
[/b]

Thank you for attempting to explain things Dennis. It is appreciated.

So everyone understands, I am not just arguing here, I'm trying to understand the basic physics.

It seems we all agree at this point that the only way a 195 stat will begin to close during normal operation is when the water temps it sees begin nearing and/or dropping below 195*. (BTW, isn't the MM stat a 188* unit?).

If that is so, then it also stands to reason that the water leaving the block must be close to or below 195* in order to get a 195* stat to begin to close.

Now, here's the kicker: On hot days, and when running the motor hard, or in stop and go traffic, the water leaving the block rarely would fall below 195*...that's a fact. It is in these exact situations where a lower stat would have ZERO benefit because the 195 stat would not close anyways. Its that simple.

Sailsman, being on a dyno with a huge dyno fan blowing on the radiator is NOT what your car actually sees in day to day stop and go driving nor at the track. It might be more simliar to highway cruising. Also uncertain is where you measured the coolant temp. That number will vary significantly depending on where in the cooling loop you measure.

And here is the basic rule folks: You CANNOT cool your engine below the point your cooling system will take you regardless of the T stat. Most hot rodders with temp issues tackle the problem in a two fold way. First, an upgrade to the cooling system is made...such as an aluminum radiator, or perhaps a nice 3 core heavy duty unit. This upgrade gives the cooling system the ability to produce lower coolant temps as more heat can be removed for the cooling loop. Now that that has been acheived, a lower stat is dropped in to regulate the temp and not let the motor get to cold (as it leads to engine wear and other bad stuff).

So, the bottom line is that unless the cooling system in a stock marauder can get the coolant temps lower than 195 on a consistent basis, the 195 stat will rarely close and cause higher block temps. In colder climates this is a definite possibility. But, the hotter the ambient temps, the less likely the water exiting the block will be cool enough to close the stock stat.

Barry, this has NOTHING to do with vendors here. This is just me trying to understand something that is contrary to what I have learned over 20 years or hotrodding cars. I guess I'm not sure how you measured that the lower stat was doing you any good at all. as far as the plugs, if you read my previous posts you'll see I agree with a simple $30 plug change to a colder plug to prevent detonation on the more aggressive tunes. No argument there:)

At this point I guess I'll not really ever get my answer here. I do appreciate Dennis attempting to explain it to me though :beer: I know I am not alone in wanting to understand how the cooler stat will help when the real limitation in cooling lies within the entire cooling loop.

[SergntMac]

I'm still working on your point, Mike, which is why I posted what I have about my experience.

I'm tapping into temperature as it is reported to the EEC, which makes sense to me because that's the 411 the EEC is making it's decisions with. Though it's not the circumstances you point to, I see a remarkable stability in overall engine temps with the 180 stat. I believe cruising the highway on a summer's day (85 degrees) with the air on and the RPM at or above 3000 for two hours or more and not running hotter than I am is quite interesting. Moreover, I've been using the Carchip for over two years, and I've never seen my engine temp exceed 193 degrees, and it only got that hot after my speed hit the triple digits for an extended period too.

This difference here could be a matter of where the temp is taken, I don't know. But, I believe the colder stat is beneficial to the ignition process and allowing for a cleaner burn on the cheap gas available in the Chicagoland area in the summer months. I have data from stop and go traffic as well as dead stop idle. I just don't have it with me to add here.

Y'all...Whether it's 12 a dollar part or a 1200 dollar part, I support learning as much about it (or, any mod for that matter) just for the learning. Sometimes, I'm the teacher, more often I'm the student. But, let's not disrupt the class and throw the learning out the window. I'm sorry if a discussion about stats bores any of you, but it's not boring me.

[MikesMerc]

Mac,

Thanks for that post :up: I'm glad there is interest in the subject on your side. I like to understand the details of all the possible mods out there not only for my own decision making, but just because it is the hobby I love and I'm always trying to learn more.

I do not doubt that you are seeing some very good temps. Did you run some comparisons before the 180 stat?

If I can come to understand how the stat regulates engine temp during normal driving conditions in hot weather, and it indeeds proves to work, I'll be the next guy to put one in my car. I fully understand the benefits of keeping the motor cooler and closer to the 180* mark...espcially with a forced induction motor.

So, if you do continue to work on the point I'm making and find an answer, I'd certainly appreciate it!

Again, thank you for the supportive post. Its great that tough questions can be asked without getting into a flame war. :beer:

[the_pack_rat]

I'll be curious to try this out, I know on my big-block a lower temp t-stat does wonders, yet didn't do enough for me. Some folks recommended running no t-stat at all but as Dennis noted when on the expressway the water flowed so fast it didn't spend enough time in the radiator to dissipate the heat. So I put in a restrictor where the t-stat went. The coolant is always flowing but never too fast - this doesn't work for all cars but has worked for mine. I'm sure it’s the same with the MM, also thermostats aren't just opened or closed they open and close partially to control flow thus controlling temp.

=================

The Olds 455 can be kind of finicky when it comes to operating temps. So can the Olds 403. While ALL engines need things to be in good working order ... these engines will run hotter way sooner than other Olds engines.

I've started using FlowKooler aluminun water pumps on all my Oldsmobiles. That combined w/a good quality 180 t-stat usually helps. I've got to get a set of gauges in the Toro to see how warm that 455 is now running - but I can feel a difference. The lack of a normal grill on the older Toros makes them even more sensitive to heat than the Cutlai/442 - 88/98 etc etc.

In my experience, power on an Olds motor starts to drop when the temp gage starts to pass the 200 degree mark. Of course' the bigger you go - smogger era vs non-smogger era motor etc etc - I think makes a difference as well. A good small block 403 - the big block 400-425-455 isn't affected as badly seat of the pants wise. Easier to feel in a 350 - downright freaking SCARY in a 307. I had an 85 Toro that a kid on a bike could have out accelerated when the engines temps would hit 220 degrees on a real hot & humid summers day w/the air conditioner on. I don't even want to think about what a lowly 260 Olds would feel like under the same condtions day :help: :depress: :P .

The rebuilt 79 403 that's in my Cutlass used to run rather toasty. Not sure how much it was bored out when it was rebuilt by the previous owner ... but I think it was .030 over. These engines are notorious for running warm once you start screwing w/the bore ..... .030 is about as far as you want to go. I was able to keep the temps better in check w/the FlowKooler pump - 180 stat & an F-Body aluminum radiator ..... did that just before I left NJ. Not that I've put alot of miles on it in the past few yrs ... but I don't think that temp gauge has even hit 220 degrees in the FL heat w/the air cond on.

Eric

[stevengerard]

Did I just hijck this thread? hope not. One main reason for eliminating the t-stat in the 442 was because twice in one summer it stuck closed. Talk about pinging, good thing the block is cast iron with a high nickle content. So now I don't have to worry.

[sailsmen]

The temp on the dyno is the same temp the ECU sees, the read out is from the car's computer. This is what affects the timing map and fuel map the ECU uses.

Mike your questions are not being a pain.