Engine sputtering?

[Ken]

Decided to take my MM out for the day, since the two feet of snow that dropped last week had melted and the roads were now dry. About a minute after I pulled out of driveway, the engine started sputtering, or missing, and had a lack of power. So I hurried up and turned around to get it home before it died, but as soon as I turned around, it ran fine. Continued on my 20 mile trip to the in-laws, no problem. The MM sat about seven hours, started up to go home, about a minute later, noticed the same sputtering for maybe 15 seconds or so. Then fine. Temperature was about 35-38 degrees both times. Car not normally driven during Winter, but can't get enough of the KOOK's.

My guess is a vacuum or sensor acting up, Any other ideas? Only Mods are Reinhart Stage 1, done almost two years ago, and KOOK's installed end of October. MM just turned 10,000 miles.

Or is it just protesting because I made it sit outside for four nights earlier this week, while I insulated and installed drywall on the ceiling of its new garage?

Ken

[BillyGman]

Hmmm, that's a tough one Ken. I guess it could be a number of things. I'd say that you should start with the inexpensive things, and work up from there. So with that in mind, I'd consider the follwing in this order:


#1. Possibly water/moisture in gas lines or tank. (run the tank right down to "E" until you're practically running on fumes, and then throw a bottle of dry gas in there, and fill it up with some good high octane gasoline, drive it for a good ten more miles, and see if that solves it).

#2. You didn't say how many miles are on the car, nor how many have been put on it since the last sparkplug change, so I'd have to say to check and/or replace the sparkplugs next.

#3. If you have a chip plugged into the computer box, make sure that it's taped in there firmly, and not hanging halfway out of there. If it looks fine (and your Marauder is NOT supercharged) remove the chip, and try running the car, and then taking it for a drive w/out the chip in there to see if that solves the problem. It might not shift right, but if it runs fine, then perhaps it's the chip. In that case, place the chip back in there, and then take it out for another drive when it's cooled down completely(since that's when you said that this occurs). If it acts up again, then you've found the problem (the chip).

#4. replace the fuel filter. (it might be clogged).

#5. Check to see what the air filter looks like, and if it looks dirty, replace it.

#6. If the first 5 things didn't change anything, then consider taking it to your dealer. And before you go there, either remove the chip (if you have one) or inform them when you get there, that you have one, and you don't want the computer re-flashed, or adjusted.

[FordNut]

Decided to take my MM out for the day, since the two feet of snow that dropped last week had melted and the roads were now dry. About a minute after I pulled out of driveway, the engine started sputtering, or missing, and had a lack of power. So I hurried up and turned around to get it home before it died, but as soon as I turned around, it ran fine. Continued on my 20 mile trip to the in-laws, no problem. The MM sat about seven hours, started up to go home, about a minute later, noticed the same sputtering for maybe 15 seconds or so. Then fine. Temperature was about 35-38 degrees both times. Car not normally driven during Winter, but can't get enough of the KOOK's.

My guess is a vacuum or sensor acting up, Any other ideas? Only Mods are Reinhart Stage 1, done almost two years ago, and KOOK's installed end of October. MM just turned 10,000 miles.

Or is it just protesting because I made it sit outside for four nights earlier this week, while I insulated and installed drywall on the ceiling of its new garage?

Ken
Did you have DR change your program after the Kook's upgrade? That's one possibility, another is that it doesn't like the winter gas formula you have in the Great White North.

[CRUZTAKER]

No need for a tune after KOOKS Ken, and damnit why didn't you call me?!!!!

I too uncovered the beast and went Marauding for the first time in 8 weeks today. Nice day ehh? Anyway, I have noticed that the more mods I do to my car, particularly the intake, air, and exhaust, I must let the car warm up a bit on chilly days. Hell, even on warm days!!! Mine does the same thing if I try to start and immediately run.

I have gotten into the habit of letting the car warm for a few minutes AFTER the idle has kicked down, and take that time to inspect everything and make sure of no unsightly smudges and stuff....and basically google at what a beautifull thing sitting in front of me...

Sorry I do not have a scientific engineering kind of answer for you, but when the weather is as such it was today, there is moisture stored up in every crevice of this car, and it needs to be burned off, if the car has sat along time.

ANYWAY...HOW WAS YOUR JAUNT?

Mine was thrilling. Got on 77 north and waited till I got to the 480 overpass and threw the wood to her! 130 by the time I crossed the bridge. Slowed down through Newburgh Hts. and cruised lightly to E. 9TH. Went down to the flats....completely abandoned!!!! No people, no cars, nothing. I ran from the old Fagans to the St. Clair hill like 3 times in a row at WOT. The sound echoing off the closed whse's was just music to my ears. Went St. Clair though downtown all the way to E. 55TH hoping to find some food...rice....but no one was willing. Hopped on the interbelt and shot home. What a run....I sure hate winter. Got home and the car was as clean as it was when left.

Dude, next time, call me...:P :cool:

[2003DOHC]

Nice day in green bay also for a drive. I have had my MM out 2 times in the last 7 weeks. Now we are getting freezing rain may be the last drive until spring! :(

[FordNut]

No need for a tune after KOOKS....
When I added the Kooks headers and no other changes, it affected my AFR. Made the car run rich and killed my fuel mileage (down to about 16-17 mpg). After a dyno tune the fuel mileage came back to about 19-20 mpg and it gained several horsepower.

[Smokie]

Both the exhaust and the PHP air box changed my A/F ratio to rich, about 11:1. I had the car tuned/corrected in both instances.

I don't mean the car didnt run, but it was not running at peak efficiency, maybe this has an effect on cold starts. Don't laugh now...we had a cold morning in Fl about a week ago "36*" and my wife turned on the car pulled out right away and made a left turn at the corner stop sign and bolted like a bat out of hell....no stalling or miss of any kind....I just watched as she drove away and thought....dammnnnn !!!!!:D

[CRUZTAKER]

I can't rule that out Fordnut and Smokie....Lidio has had his hands on my car since I did both, but I still have those issues, AND the poor(er) gas milage. I need to get back out to him in regards to those two issue.

[SergntMac]

Just a reminder that the EEC has a memory feature that stores data from previous use, and it refers to this data as you drive. Putting the MM up for a few weeks while the weather changes, and that data is stale. Barry is right, let the car warm up, and add a WOTs while your out and about.

You could pull the battery cable and erase the memory, but this leaves you in basically the same boat. No data is about the same as stale data, and the solution would be the same, a few WOTs and on-ramp romps to overwrite/rewrite the stored data.

I overheard once that data bank stores as much as the last 300 hours of engine use, but I never verified that.

[Bradley G]

If this is true, it's gonna take a while for me to rewrite my wife's history.:o

Bradley G


Just a reminder that the EEC has a memory feature that stores data from previous use, and it refers to this data as you drive. Putting the MM up for a few weeks while the weather changes, and that data is stale. Barry is right, let the car warm up, and add a WOTs while your out and about.

You could pull the battery cable and erase the memory, but this leaves you in basically the same boat. No data is about the same as stale data, and the solution would be the same, a few WOTs and on-ramp romps to overwrite/rewrite the stored data.

I overheard once that data bank stores as much as the last 300 hours of engine use, but I never verified that.

[BillyGman]

If this is true, it's gonna take a while for me to rewrite my wife's history.:o

Bradley G
LOL!!!!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[cyclone03]

Well mine does the same thing.
Do you have a 2003 with BMDO computer code?There is an updated stock program that address' cold start and running.Had mine dome but after the Kooks install I think that all went out the window.

My guess is the headers move the O2 sensors,so they take longer to start working properly.Short of a complete retune of the cold start programming I think you just have to warm er' up for about a minute before you blast off on cold days.
Not the answer I wanted either but every thing else works great.

[BillyGman]

Well mine does the same thing.
Do you have a 2003 with BMDO computer code?There is an updated stock program that address' cold start and running.Had mine dome but after the Kooks install I think that all went out the window.

My guess is the headers move the O2 sensors,so they take longer to start working properly.. Hmmmm, that must have been a problem that was specificto your car, because I also have the BMDO code Marauder, and mine is ofcourse an 03, and when I installed the Kooks headers as you have, I never had to change anything else, and the car continued to run fine, and w/out this problem that's been described here. Just sharing the info.....

[SergntMac]

Hmmmm, that must have been a problem that was specificto your car, because I also have the BMDO code Marauder, and mine is ofcourse an 03, and when I installed the Kooks headers as you have, I never had to change anything else, and the car continued to run fine, and w/out this problem that's been described here. Just sharing the info.....
Was this before or after your S/C upgrade? Did Lidio's S/C chip tune this out?

[BillyGman]

Was this before or after your S/C upgrade? Did Lidio's S/C chip tune this out?Good question MAC, I'm sorry for not specifying that....the answer is, this was well BEFORE the supercharger installation. I installed the Kooks headers and exhaust in early December of 2003, and the chip that I already had before the installation was fine afterwards, and did NOT have to be touched at all. And the car continued to run fine. I even called the engine tuner who burned the chip and asked him if it needed to be re-burned, and he said "no". Keep in mind that I drive the car daily, and it's used as my daily driver all year round (even in the snow), and I even took the car racing after the header installation the following week on December 13th to race against the Impala SS boys in 38 degree temperature, and everything was fine.

And the car was like that ( N/A ) until the following April (2004) which was when I installed the Trilogy Supercharger which ofcourse comes with a special chip for that application.

[CRUZTAKER]

My BMD0 had the dealer software upgrade back in the day, but subsequent retunes have pretty much over-rided the cold start software upgrade.

[BillyGman]

My BMD0 had the dealer software upgrade back in the day, but subsequent retunes have pretty much over-rided the cold start software upgrade.
barry, but I would think that the perfromance re-tunes that you have had would also take care of, and eliminate any cold running issues. Can it be because of the icing down techniques of the engine that you use at the track that cause these issues? or do you have similar problems on the street as well? This is a sincere question on my part. I mean no sarcasm (lest anyone take this the wrong way :rolleyes: ).

[MERCMAN]

For what its worth, I have the same problem on occasion. I put mine down to the fact that sometimes I will just start her up and back it out of the garage and then shut it off. When i start it up again later for a drive, it acts like it is being choked. I think I have figured out what causes mine to do this. If I don't let it run enough to burn the initial shot of petrol out of the cylinders, it won't run right unless I WOT for a few secs to burn off the aforementioned fuel. I now let it run for a minute or two if I just have to move it and not take it for a drive. Just my .02.

[GordonB]

Ken,
Here is a suggestion that may help since your car has 10K miles -- have you recently or ever cleaned the throttle body? This may sound silly, but a stop MM has a dual bore TB and at least once each year we should chock one of the openings and then thoroughly clean the other bore and butterfly with carb/TB cleaner and then do the other side the same way. You will be amazed how much carbon will build up on the butterfly and around the smooth bore opening. This should solve your rough/sluggish idle problems. If it does NOT solve them, then tyr a large bottle of Chevron Techron fluel injector cleaner.
Hope these suggestions help you. I cleaned throttle bodies Christmas day when I was installing my new Brass Thumb screws for the coil covers. I did both cars.
BTW, the dealer is my VERY LAST resort!!!

GordonB

[CRUZTAKER]

.... Can it be because of the icing down techniques of the engine that you use at the track that cause these issues?
Nope...the car has done it ever since I fussed with the CAI in conjunction with exhaust work.

For example, I started the car yesterday for the first time in 8 weeks or so. Being plugged in to a trickle charger only over that time, she fired up with just a turn of the key from outside the car. A lovely gentle roar and subsequent rumble with the high idle warm up period. No blue smoke, nothing out of the ordinary.

I pull it out of the barn within minutes of this to avoid CO build up in the barn air and just that few feet in drive she missed a tad and hesitated. Normal for me....I am used to it. In 4 minutes, the car is good to go for normal driving. In one mile of normal driving she is up to temp and ready for a womp without any hesistation what so ever.

Always has....always does....:dunno:

[BillyGman]

Hmmmm,......... okay, thanks for the explanation Barry.

[Ken]

I've got the FDH2 processor, My problem doesn't seem to be as bad as Cruztaker's. Took it to church yesterday, no problem, but the temperature was almost 50 degrees. Will keep an eye on it, and try to remember to warm it up when cold. Glad to know that I'm not the only one.

Thanks again,

Ken

[merc406]

Decided to take my MM out for the day, since the two feet of snow that dropped last week had melted and the roads were now dry. About a minute after I pulled out of driveway, the engine started sputtering, or missing, and had a lack of power. So I hurried up and turned around to get it home before it died,

Or is it just protesting because I made it sit outside for four nights earlier this week, while I insulated and installed drywall on the ceiling of its new garage?

Ken



It's a Marauder, they are protesters by nature and rabble rousers... :coolman: :burnout:

[valkyrie]

Both the exhaust and the PHP air box changed my A/F ratio to rich, about 11:1. I had the car tuned/corrected in both instances.

I don't mean the car didnt run, but it was not running at peak efficiency, maybe this has an effect on cold starts. Don't laugh now...we had a cold morning in Fl about a week ago "36*" and my wife turned on the car pulled out right away and made a left turn at the corner stop sign and bolted like a bat out of hell....no stalling or miss of any kind....I just watched as she drove away and thought....dammnnnn !!!!!:D

I think I am running Rich as well after the KookS install. Talking about poor mileage I am hitting around 15MPG.

I have installed the Stallion as well recently so I need to find someone around here for a Dyno and Tune.

[Bradley G]

That would explain a lot!;)

I warm up the car for my wife in the AM ,But I rarely let it run very long(less than a minute),even in the coldest of temps (single digits),I have never ever heard the engine misfire or run rough.Mine has even more power cold than warm.I don't run WOT cold so please save the firepower.:flamer: Should I clean the throttle body A 16500 on the clock or just inspect and perform if it appears to be carboned/varnished up.
Bradley G

It's a Marauder, they are protesters by nature and rabble rousers... :coolman: :burnout:

[cyclone03]

Nope...the car has done it ever since I fussed with the CAI in conjunction with exhaust work.

For example, I started the car yesterday for the first time in 8 weeks or so. Being plugged in to a trickle charger only over that time, she fired up with just a turn of the key from outside the car. A lovely gentle roar and subsequent rumble with the high idle warm up period. No blue smoke, nothing out of the ordinary.

I pull it out of the barn within minutes of this to avoid CO build up in the barn air and just that few feet in drive she missed a tad and hesitated. Normal for me....I am used to it. In 4 minutes, the car is good to go for normal driving. In one mile of normal driving she is up to temp and ready for a womp without any hesistation what so ever.

Always has....always does....:dunno:

That is exactley what mine does too.
Runs like a Carburated car with no choke for about 3-4 mins everyday.

[cyclone03]

I think I am running Rich as well after the KookS install. Talking about poor mileage I am hitting around 15MPG.

I have installed the Stallion as well recently so I need to find someone around here for a Dyno and Tune.

Same results I had after my Kooks install,part of the loss of mileage may come from ENJOYING the new sound too much though,if you know what I meen.
I THINK some of the loss is from the loss of lowend torque too though.Notice you use a little more throttle while driving around?

The converter will liven things up a lot but your around town mileage will be down about 1-3 mpg from you no mod privious norm.
How do I know? I've tracked every tank of fuel from day 1,my milage dropped from the 17-18 range around town to the 15-16's.Highway speeds I'm in the 24-25 range.

[RF Overlord]

even in the coldest of temps (single digits),I have never ever heard the engine misfire or run rough. Should I clean the throttle body A 16500 on the clock or just inspect and perform if it appears to be carboned/varnished up.

If your car is running that well, especially on bitter cold mornings, then leave it alone. Mine has 33,000 on it and runs like yours, and I have never touched the TB or the MAF.

In the good ol' days of carburetors and central TB injection, I could see things getting dirty, but our MAFs and TBs have nothing but air going through them, so if the air filtration system is working correctly, there should just about never be any reason to HAVE to clean the TB...unless the motor has a million miles on it...if it's getting dirty, then there's something else wrong...

[CRUZTAKER]

The converter will liven things up a lot but your around town mileage will be down about 1-3 mpg from you no mod privious norm......
I'll agree with you there. Around town milage decreases a bunch with the T/C install. I can still get 20-21 on the long haul running heavy.

I love the T/C, and wouldn't remove it for ANY reason!

[valkyrie]

I'll agree with you there. Around town milage decreases a bunch with the T/C install. I can still get 20-21 on the long haul running heavy.

I love the T/C, and wouldn't remove it for ANY reason!


In my opinion the T/C is the best mod I have made so far. My headers is a very close second.

[BillyGman]

In my opinion the T/C is the best mod I have made so far. My headers is a very close second.
Yep, that's what I said when my car was N/A. That's the order I would put those mods in as far as the ET reductions they provided me at the time. Ofcourse with the headers, you can't forget that great sound they provide though.

[BillyGman]

If your car is running that well, especially on bitter cold mornings, then leave it alone. Mine has 33,000 on it and runs like yours, and I have never touched the TB or the MAF.

...
That's a very interesting point you've made there, because it just so happens that I've never had any problems with my car in the cold either, and I've never changed the Throttle body or the MAF either. Can this be coincidental? :confused:

[GordonB]

To all,
Regardless of what mods you have done, I'll bet I can improve your cold performance if you have NOT cleaned your TB or your fuel injectors AND you have more than 10K miles on yur vehicle.
FWIW. You may dispute my thoughts, but you cannot dispute the dirt/carbon build-up that I get from cleaning out of your TB and injectors.

Thanks,
GordonB

[BillyGman]

Gordon, that's definately thought provoking, and this is just speculative on my part, but I have 22K on my Marauder's clock, and I haven't done the two things you've mentioned, and she runs great. hey, maybe it has something to do with how I open the thottle up so frequently, I dunno........ BTW, do those fuel injector cleaners really work? And are they all the same, or are some better than others?

[Bradley G]

I did add one can of gumout injector cleaner @ 10k and filled the tank.I ran it down pretty MT before I refueled.I have not sprayed the Butterfly yet but I am going to pull off the Induction tube and take a lookie see!

Bradley G

[RF Overlord]

BTW, do those fuel injector cleaners really work? And are they all the same, or are some better than others?

IMHO, the only one that's worth anything is Techron...

With my T-bird SC, I used to put in a can 2 or 3 times a year...never touched the MAF or TB in that either, and it ran fine for 8 years and 152,000 miles...

[SergntMac]

Regardless of what mods you have done, I'll bet I can improve your cold performance if you have NOT cleaned your TB or your fuel injectors AND you have more than 10K miles on yur vehicle. FWIW. You may dispute my thoughts, but you cannot dispute the dirt/carbon build-up that I get from cleaning out of your TB and injectors. Thanks, GordonB
Yep. GordonB's right.

While we debate how clean our air induction path must be, because we have spent so much time on air filters, cold air induction kits, fine tunes and so on, what we have failed to see, is the carbon and oil deposit criminal kicking down our back door...Our PCV system. Lookie here...

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/showphoto.php/photo/6813/password/d746d272dfed711f349d5453ed3b71 f7/sort/1/cat/500/page/1

Y'all see that purple looking thingy with Earl's name on it? That the PCV system connection to the upper intake. That hose pumps 3-4 PSI worth of oily crankcase air back into the intake, and it splashes across the top if the lower intake directly across from the backside of the throttle body. When the pressure builds, it's kind of "spittin" at the backside of the TB, the side we can't see.

What y'all are peeking at from the driver's side looks pretty clean, yes. But, once you open the TB and peek inside the intake, or pull the upper intake manifold, you'll discover that the backside of the TB is coated in black oily soot. That's because PCV fumes spill out across the manifold, mix with the clean air charge, and pass down into the combustion chamber to get burned off with the fresh air charge in the combustion process.

I won't say that this contaminates the fuel injectors, they have their own contaminates to deal with from the fuel system alone. But, this oily PCV air is mixed with clean air, and the result is a fouled air path.

I've pulled my upper intake a half dozen times now, and I've seen another dozen pulled as well. Each and every one has been fouled, from medium brown to "Navy low quarter black." The air that pumps through the PCV system and recirculates into the induction path, is engine oil heavy air. Air mixed with aspirated engine oil.

I cannot say this is the cause of "cold start stumble," I still believe that downtime between engine starts, and changes in weather, has more to do with this issue than we give credit to. However, GordonB is correct to say that the internal surfaces of the upper and lower intake are contaminated in a manner we cannot determine without pulling the upper intake. It may be worth a seasonal inspection, and cleaning.

My intake internals get gummed up with this crap, but only to a medium brown color. I like to think that my frequent oil changes are partially responsible, but I am guessing. It's also my habit to add 1 pint of Isopropyl Alcohol to every other gastank fill-up when the seasons around me change to lower than freezing temps as the norm...Something my father taught me and I cannot shake it, oh well.

BTW, how many of y'all goose the engine before shutting the car off, just like daddy taught you?

Well, knock it off, eh? It's EFI, K? Stop goosing the engine before shut off, and stop tapping the accelerator pedal with your right toe before you start up. You're doubling the fuel charge, and the engine will run very rich at the next fire up. This momentary rich condition will confuse the O2 exhaust sensors befiore it burns off, and it may take a few minutes of "how cold is today, and how much gas am I burning" EEC confusion to clean everything out, and start over.

Check the details of mercman's post ^ there again? I think he's giving us another clue...IMHO.

[GordonB]

Thanks Sarge.

FYI -- I specifically called out Chevron Techron FI cleaner because it is the REAL DEAL. It works, even if you have to buy 2 bottles to get the right gas mix per instructions to clean your Fuel Injectors. It's not cheap either at about $6 - $8 per bottle.

Cleaning your TB:
Without a lot of techno mumbo jumble, suffice it to say that all ThrottleBodies draw their IDLE air around the CLOSED/mostly closed butterfly(s). When carbon and soot build up on the bores and on the edges of the butterflies, voila, we do not have ENOUGH AIR!!! Hence, we get STUMBLE, Duh!!! Hence, we as car aficianados (sp?) and AR (anal retentive) types that I/we are, need to CLEAN all of our Openings and butterflies at least every year, depending on HOW much you drive!!! Continue cleaning your bores and butterflies until you get NO MORE dirt!!!! Squeaky clean is GOOOOOOD!!!!

Now, I'm done my SOAPBOX speech!!!!!! Go enjoy cleaning!!!! and enjoy a good drive! :beer: :banana2: :cool:

GordonB

[CRUZTAKER]

Y'all see that purple looking thingy with Earl's name on it?
Yeah....and do YOU see my comment below?:rolleyes:

[cmalo]

My MM has been a cold blooded critter since I bought it (used @ 20K miles). The dealer says there is nothing wrong. It's actually better in very cold (~20F) Michigan weather -worse in warmer weather.

Will stumble a lot in 40 - 50 degree weather after a cold start and drive. Stumble goes away after a few minutes, but before it's fully warm.

c