Torque Converter?

[Svashtar]

Guys, I have read Dennis's post on the PI Stall and Lidio's about tranny upgrades in general, and a whole bunch of stuff in between before asking this relatively dumb question:

As I understand it the sole reason to multiply torque with the PI oversized converter is to transfer more power to the tranny and hence rear wheels from the engine quicker.

So I take it at higher speeds it doesn't do anything different from what the standard TC does, that it only really shines from 0-30 or 40 MPH or so?

My concern is that by adding a larger TC to the front of the tranny WITHOUT also beefing up the internals of the tranny, is that I am asking to break something in the tranny or rear end. Is this assumption true?

I noticed that Lidio who has the Trilogy kit did not upgrade his TC. Is this because he is afraid the extra power would fry something?

I have added power, and beefed up the front end and suspension. The next mods that make sense to me are the DR engine cooling mod, and upgrading the transmission internals and adding a secondary cooler. A tranny temp gauge would also be nice. I figure this will make the tranny as bulletproof as possible. But I can't decide for a hiway car (although I do like to take off fast sometimes shall we say!) whether this is something I should get or not.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Also, I don't think that my car is generating the kind of power some of your basic N/A cars are. Even with the 4:10 gears w/ girdle, SCT programming, stat, plugs, UD pullies, MMX shaft, control arms, sway bar, etc., etc., I have never been able to even spin the tires on dry pavement. Oh, it accelerates like hell and slams me back in my seat, but no chirp, and definitely not a secondary chirp on the upshift that some of you have described. I don't know, maybe my tires are warmed up and just grab instead of spinning...

Thanks as always for any info!

Norm

[sailsmen]

With the PI Stallion you will definitely have a traction problem in most conditions. :)

Few as a % of the total of trans have failed, but there have probably been 20+ failures on this board. Some due to poor quality in assembly or the snap ring popping off the OD Band.

Our E150 that the wife drives is on it's 3rd 4r70W in 56K miles.

[wchain]

With the PI Stallion you will definitely have a traction problem in most conditions. :)

Few as a % of the total of trans have failed, but there have probably been 20+ failures on this board. Some due to poor quality in assembly or the snap ring popping off the OD Band.

Our E150 that the wife drives is on it's 3rd 4r70W in 56K miles.


And then again, I see E-150 cargo vans that run overloaded every day with 200K and 300K on them with 4R70Ws that have had nothing more than Fluid/FIlter changes....guess its just the luck the draw....

[HwyCruiser]

It wasn't until the PI TC that I could break the rear loose with fresh BFGs. Now, especially due to the cooler weather, I can make as much of a fool of myself as I care to.

The PI is smaller and lighter than the OEM and they claim up to an "extra" 50 hp due to higher torque multiplication while it runs through its stall speed. That's all fuzzy math because its something you won't generally see on the dyno because all the action is in the lower RPMs.

What you can do is definately feel it. This one mod alone dropped my 0-60 times in 80+ Deg F weather from mid-low 6 sec to high-mid 5 sec range according to my G-Timer. Believe me, my MM is no where near some of the factory freaks I saw on the dyno at Indy, so I'm in the same boat as far as having to work for it.

A word of caution, some of us discovered that the torque converter lockup tables needed adjustment for a "pause" at WOT in 2nd gear around 4-5k rpm and some lugging around the shifts due to tuning for the stock converter, which the fix took care of both for me.

As far drivability, I've found is that while driving around town at speeds between 30-40 mph, the RPMs will drop by 800-1000 fairly quickly by lifting off the pedal. Its just kind of strange.

The TC lockup is also noticable depending on throttle position. Sometimes it feels like a transmission shift, sometimes its not noticable at all. Once the TC is locked, which mine does at 40 mph, there's little drop in RPM when I lift off the pedal.

As far as the 1-2 chirp, the PI TC allows acceleration through the shift instead of shocking the driveline, so I'm pulling away instead of just making noise. Swapping to the PI isn't a magic pill, as with any mod there is give and take that you'll have to carefully measure.

Some good reading on this subject:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1887

[cyclone03]

I've had my PI converter installed for one year (to the day BTW).
Without a dought this was the biggest change and greatest boost in performance I have seen.

First I DO NOT HAVE 4.10:1's.

My mods are
Reflashed Computer
Underdrive pulleys
Kooks full system
and the PI Stallion.

Performance?
14.20's at Indy last year.

IMHO the computer must be tuned after the converter install,mine is set to LOCK the converter at 45mph ,light throttle in 3rd and 4th (OD) gear.To tell the truth it's cool as hell because the trans acts like a stick in 3rd and 4th.
Even burbles when you lift the throttle.

Around town the rpm is about 1000rpm higher than the stock converter,in normal stop and go type driving it's kind of a pain because the rpm swings a lot from idle to 3000 and back in stop and go.I think some of that is due to the gear,I got my converter from DR and I THINK he orders all of his set for 4.10's with 3.55 the converter see's more load so it slips more.


You are correct that the converter does it's best work from zero wheel speed to whatever the speed is above the converters stall speed (RPM) say 3500 or so RPM.Above that the performance increase is less,BUT my car still feels very good all the way to the shift.The reason is the PI is about 10-15lbs lighter than the stock converter so the engine feels very "zippie".


You mod plan sound good to me,due the engine cooling mod,trans upgrade and converter at the same time.Then give DR a call to get the torque converter lock up and shift point right and you'll be set.

[BillyGman]

I concur, before I installed the supercharger on my Marauder, i was on a constant quest to make the car faster, and other than the supercharger, the Precision Industries "Stallion" torque converter with a 3,000 RPM stall speed provided me with the biggest reduction in quartermile ET's out of all the other mods that I did to the car. My ET reduction with the Stallion converter was .70 seconds, which BTW was only surpassed by the 1.6 second reduction that I obtained with the Trilogy Supercharger.


So the Stallion converter proved to be a great choice for me, and even surpassed the garantee from Precision Industries that their customers who install the "Stallion" on their cars will obtain a minimum ET reduction of .50 seconds in the quartermile ET. You can purchase the Stallion from a vendor, or directly from Precision Industries like I did. And if you want to learn more about their product, then just go here to their website and clickon the "Stallion" icon www.converter.com (http://www.converter.com)

[Svashtar]

Thanks Billy and everyone for all the great info. I'm no mechanic, but it seems to me that the trick to doing this right is to beef up the tranny internals at the same time the TC is added. I'm sure some folks have had zero problems, but it seems that the TC is making the std. tranny work overtime and _could_ possibly lead to problems down the road. As long as I'm making everything as bulletproof as possible, this seems like a great bang for the buck.


Thanks again,

Norm

[BillyGman]

seems that the TC is making the std. tranny work overtime and _could_ possibly lead to problems down the road. As long as I'm making everything as bulletproof as possible, this seems like a great bang for the buck.


Thanks again,

NormI didn't do anything to my transmission when I installed the Stallion torque converter, and it's been fine. So what you're saying isn't neccessarily true. Maybe if you chose to have the stall speed set extremely high (such as 4,000 RPM's or higher) then I'd say, yes, that would place a greater strain on the transmission, but that would mostly be due to fatigue from the extra heat caused by such a high stall speed. I don't believe that you have to worry about that with a 3,000 RPM stall speed. You should bounce all your questions off of someone at precision Industries over the telephone too, since they're not looking to sell you any transmission parts, nor aftermarlet transmissions, so it might be very likely that you can get an unbiased opinion from them about the stock transmission issue.

[sailsmen]

In theory the higher stall speed will run hotter, how much I don't know. There are others on this board with Tranny Temp and OBD Live Readouts that can comment.

[dirtyd0g]

If you are running a singleplate PI converter you need to modify your pcm to be unlocked at WOT. Here is whyhttp://members.tccoa.com/dirtyd0g/Converter/PI%20Lockup%20piston.jpg

That is the lockup piston out of it. Notice it has a very wide yet small diameter clutch lining. That will force a shudder on apply and slippage at WOT. That converter had very few miles on it. The owner quickly realized he had a problem and installed a different type of converter.
Alan

[BillyGman]

NOT according to what I've been told, because it's my understanding that the factory stock torque converters are NOT programmed by the computers to lock out at Wide Open Throttle anyway.

[dirtyd0g]

Call PI and ask Jack then.

[Smokie]

But I can't decide for a highway car (although I do like to take off fast sometimes shall we say!) whether this is something I should get or not.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Also, I don't think that my car is generating the kind of power some of your basic N/A cars are. Even with the 4:10 gears w/ girdle, SCT programming, stat, plugs, UD pullies, MMX shaft, control arms, sway bar, etc., etc., I have never been able to even spin the tires on dry pavement. Oh, it accelerates like hell and slams me back in my seat, but no chirp, and definitely not a secondary chirp on the upshift that some of you have described. I don't know, maybe my tires are warmed up and just grab instead of spinning...

Thanks as always for any info!

NormI have stock gears and converter and have driven and observed cars with the higher stall converters and when you start the car and put it in gear it sounds like a car with a manual tranny and the clutch slipping, you hear the engine rev up before the car moves, not something that I like. I do not question for a moment that the converter will make your car faster in 1/4 mile, just don't like the revving sound before the car moves.

You comment that your car does not burn rubber on dry pavement; looking at yours mods it seems to me that it should. Have you ever had your car dyno'ed to see what you are putting to the rear tires ?

[Svashtar]

I have stock gears and converter and have driven and observed cars with the higher stall converters and when you start the car and put it in gear it sounds like a car with a manual tranny and the clutch slipping, you hear the engine rev up before the car moves, not something that I like. I do not question for a moment that the converter will make your car faster in 1/4 mile, just don't like the revving sound before the car moves.

You comment that your car does not burn rubber on dry pavement; looking at yours mods it seems to me that it should. Have you ever had your car dyno'ed to see what you are putting to the rear tires ?
No, I have no idea what it's putting out. The only times I have gone WOT I have already put several miles on the car and the only thing I can think of is that the tires are warmed up. I have a list of local Dyno places (supplied by you I think!), but don't want to just get it Dynoed, I would like to have it tuned at the same time. Dennis suggests JBA Racing in San Diego, and I know they're great, but I'm just not into a 14 hour round trip. I'm hoping to find someone in the SF Bay Area that can both dyno and tune the car.

I know some folks are getting Dyno printouts and then sending them to Dennis for analysis who in turn sends them a new program, but that is a lot of work for him and all involved and I would prefer to get it set and then only bother Dennis if I add a new elec. water pump for example.

Thanks,

Norm

[BillyGman]

Call PI and ask Jack then.I have spoken with Jack three times on the phone since I purchased the Stallion converter directly from them. They sell two different Stallion models. One is a multi-plate or multi-disc one (is that the one that you were talking about?) which is about $1,100 and the standard single plate one which is about $800. They told me that there isn't any advantage in spending the extra $300 for the multi-plate one UNLESS you're going to be running your car primarily on the track rather than on the street, and you want the torque converter to be locked all the time at "WOT".

Most Marauder owners (including myself) who have purchased the Stallion torque converter have chosen the single plate standard model. Having the converter locked out at WOT is NOT what you want for a street driven car at all, and Jack himself explained that to me.

He said that you will not find any factory set-ups that are locked out at WOT. what I'm saying is that I think you've got it backwards. The only way that you would need to lock it at WOT is if you choose the $1,100 multi-plate model, and are choosing to run the car at the track VERY often. Otherwise, the way that your computer is set at the factory can need some minor adjustments according to your taste, but it does NOT lock your stock converter at WOT to begin with, and would have to be adjusted or programmed to do so IF you're going to choose the multi-plate model.

But while making a choice as to which model to go with, people should keep in mind that it's Jack from Precision Industries who will tell you that there will be no advantage on a street driven car in buying their more expensive model. And I've also been told that the more expensive multi-plate model makes a lot of noise because of the additional plates. I have the cheaper single plate model, and when I put it in the car (which was BEFORE supercharging it) it alone reduced my quartermile ET's by .70 seconds, and Precision Industries garantees your reduction to be atleast .50 seconds.

[BillyGman]

I have stock gears and converter and have driven and observed cars with the higher stall converters and when you start the car and put it in gear it sounds like a car with a manual tranny and the clutch slipping, you hear the engine rev up before the car moves, not something that I like. I do not question for a moment that the converter will make your car faster in 1/4 mile, just don't like the revving sound before the car moves. HMM, I dunno, I've never noticed that my car does that. :confused:

You comment that your car does not burn rubber on dry pavement; looking at yours mods it seems to me that it should. Have you ever had your car dyno'ed to see what you are putting to the rear tires ? before my Marauder was supercharged, it would NOT spin the tires from a dead punch either even when I had the 4.10 gears. It was only after I got the Stallion Torque converter that it began doing that.

[Smokie]

I agree with you that a qualified local tuner would be best, maybe there is a difference in the tuning you have due to the lower octane fuel in California, it may affect the timing advance tables....:dunno: also some 1/4 mile or even 1/8 mile times can be used to estimate your power level.

[BillyGman]

. Oh, it accelerates like hell and slams me back in my seat, but no chirp, and definitely not a secondary chirp on the upshift that some of you have described. I don't know, maybe my tires are warmed up and just grab instead of spinning...

Thanks as always for any info!

Norm Norm, look at my reply in my last post. but in addition to that.......here's what most Marauder guys have to do to chirp second gear pretty good....... shift it manually in first gear before you start off, and hammer it. Keep the pedal to the floor, and watch the tach....when it gets to 4,000 or so, shift it quckly into second gear so that the transmision will hit second BEFORE the RPM's go past the 5,000 mark. When it finally hits second, you'll get a nice chirp unless your tires are pretty worn and they don't produce a squeal anymore.

[Smokie]

before my Marauder was supercharged, it would NOT spin the tires from a dead punch either even when I had the 4.10 gears. It was only after I got the Stallion Torque converter that it began doing that.My car did not burn rubber pure OEM, after Dennis flashed my PCM, and only that changed, it burned rubber easily. We had a thread a while back were we discussed the large amount of variation in rubber burning in our cars...I can't account for so much difference...but it is there.

About the revs and the converter, maybe there was something wrong with the cars I saw and drove...but you could hear the engine rev up and movement was just a split second later... Im talking fractions of a second, but it was there.

[BillyGman]

About the revs and the converter, maybe there was something wrong with the cars I saw and drove...but you could hear the engine rev up and movement was just a split second later... Im talking fractions of a second, but it was there.
Was that also at full throttle blasts?

[Smokie]

Was that also at full throttle blasts?Not at full throttle, the response at full throttle felt sharp. I wasn't trying to make this a big thing, I did notice what I described at lower rpm's. I don't think it would bother anybody that is looking for best performance possible.

I have approached my mods with these 2 objectives, least amount of change from OEM to get into the 13's for lowest cost. As you can see I am not that hard to please.:)

[BillyGman]

Not at full throttle, the response at full throttle felt sharp. I wasn't trying to make this a big thing, I did notice what I described at lower rpm's. I don't think it would bother anybody that is looking for best performance possible.

I have approached my mods with these 2 objectives, least amount of change from OEM to get into the 13's for lowest cost. As you can see I am not that hard to please.:)
Naw, I'm not trying to make this a big thang either........just trying to learn, and understand wher you were coming from on this....thanks for your reply. :up:

Maybe my car does the same thing at part throttle, and I just never noticed it. I dunno.......but now that I'm typing this.....what I have noticed is a delay in the power being put to the pavement only when the O/D is on and it isn't from a dead stop, but more like from a 20 MPH roll. I don't get that when I have the O/D switch to the "off" position though. (and I usually do shut it off if I'm going to accelerate). I'm not sure why that should make a difference at slower speeds when the O/D isn't going to be enggaged anyway. I don't know why it makes a difference, I only know that it does. but that's a different topic for a different thread I guess.

[Darrin]

I have an SCT pro racer package and I can tell you that my stock tune locked the converter at WOT about 2 seconds into 2nd gear. I knew it before I got the racer package, but with it I was able to actually pull the stock tune from the car and look at it.
The PI converter pictured above was mine. From experience, I would say that if you are planning to run the car on the track or experience a lot of WOT in 2nd gear then I wouldn't use the single plate. I just spoke with Jack about this again Friday night since I had been hearing so much conflicting info. He said they can tell from the clutch if the converter is being abused this way. The single plate is specifically for applications that do not lock the converter at WOT. If you smoke the clutch don't count on your warranty.
Most tuners, and particularly most SCT tuners using Jerry's transmission programming, have the converter locked at WOT to get the most out of the car.
But, the single plate is fine if you SPECIFY to your tuner that you do not want the converter clutch locking at WOT. I wouldn't want to risk the warranty on a $750 converter.
The triple plate converters can be noisy and a good single plate would be a better choice on the street. That is why I had Alan build me a converter. It was the best money I EVER spent on my car and the deal couldn't be beat.

[cyclone03]

I have an SCT pro racer package and I can tell you that my stock tune locked the converter at WOT about 2 seconds into 2nd gear. I knew it before I got the racer package, but with it I was able to actually pull the stock tune from the car and look at it.
The PI converter pictured above was mine. From experience, I would say that if you are planning to run the car on the track or experience a lot of WOT in 2nd gear then I wouldn't use the single plate. I just spoke with Jack about this again Friday night since I had been hearing so much conflicting info. He said they can tell from the clutch if the converter is being abused this way. The single plate is specifically for applications that do not lock the converter at WOT. If you smoke the clutch don't count on your warranty.
Most tuners, and particularly most SCT tuners using Jerry's transmission programming, have the converter locked at WOT to get the most out of the car.
But, the single plate is fine if you SPECIFY to your tuner that you do not want the converter clutch locking at WOT. I wouldn't want to risk the warranty on a $750 converter.
The triple plate converters can be noisy and a good single plate would be a better choice on the street. That is why I had Alan build me a converter. It was the best money I EVER spent on my car and the deal couldn't be beat.

Darrin,welcome.

Two questions...

What kind of car did you have the converter in?

How much HP does it make?

[cyclone03]

If you are running a singleplate PI converter you need to modify your pcm to be unlocked at WOT.
That is the lockup piston out of it. Notice it has a very wide yet small diameter clutch lining. That will force a shudder on apply and slippage at WOT. That converter had very few miles on it. The owner quickly realized he had a problem and installed a different type of converter.
Alan


What type of problem did he have?
How much power?
What car?

[sailsmen]

From PI's Webstite under Stallion;
"***Note the multi-disc converters are a MUST for applications that are locking-up the torque converter under WOT."

[Darrin]

Darrin,welcome.

Two questions...

What kind of car did you have the converter in?

How much HP does it make?Thanks for the welcome. I have been reading here for a long, long time and saw some discussions recently that made me want to finally join up. I hadn't joined because I don't have a Marauder, but I have a Mark, a couple of Thunderbirds, a cougar and my Mustang.
That converter was for my stock 98 GT that was making 187rwhp and 257ft-lbs torque. It had just been dyno'd at Automotive Specialists in Noblesville, IN just beforehand and that is when I found out that I had a problem. I knew when I added more power that I needed something different. I didn't have the SCT pro racer package or a tune in the car until after I got a different converter. So at the time the converter was cut open, it was a stock 98 stang on the stock tune.
The converter that dirtyd0g is talking about was mine. Those are the pics from when he cut it open to inspect itfor me.

[Darrin]

From PI's Webstite under Stallion;
"***Note the multi-disc converters are a MUST for applications that are locking-up the torque converter under WOT."Yeah, I keep quoting that on another board and they keep not listening. Somehow they know better than the manufacturer does :shake:
They don't get it that I am only trying to help. I wasted my money on an improper converter for my needs and I am only sharing my experience to maybe help keep someone else from going through the same thing.
When I saw the insides of that converter I just wanted to cry. Alan has the rest of the pics and I hope he shares them. Other than the stall, I definitely would have been better off with a stock converter. The only good thing I can say about it is that it has one awesome front cover.
My advice is that if you have to have a PI, I would only go with their triple and live with the rattle.

[cyclone03]

Thanks for the welcome. I have been reading here for a long, long time and saw some discussions recently that made me want to finally join up. I hadn't joined because I don't have a Marauder, but I have a Mark, a couple of Thunderbirds, a cougar and my Mustang.
That converter was for my stock 98 GT that was making 187rwhp and 257ft-lbs torque. It had just been dyno'd at Automotive Specialists in Noblesville, IN just beforehand and that is when I found out that I had a problem. I knew when I added more power that I needed something different. I didn't have the SCT pro racer package or a tune in the car until after I got a different converter. So at the time the converter was cut open, it was a stock 98 stang on the stock tune.
The converter that dirtyd0g is talking about was mine. Those are the pics from when he cut it open to inspect itfor me.

Thanks for the answer.
How did you know you had a problem with the converter before it was removed?

[Lidio]

I just want to throw in a couple of things I’ve gathered over the years with stock programming with Lock-up converters, what I do with it and their longevity.

First off, on the Marauder and most Ford’s with Electronic transmissions equipped with lock-up converters… They are programmed to lock the converter as soon as possible and keep it locked the rest of the drive time once the vehicle is moving. This is for nothing more then economy, and it does cut down on trans heat as well leading to better longevity too for the trans. But The stock stall-speeds on production converters don’t slip enough to really over heat a trans, ( if left un-locked for extended periods like I do) especially today’s Ford’s, they come with some very serious trans coolers that are not integrated into the engines cooling radiator making them much better.

For the most part they lock-up shortly after shifting into 2nd gear and then stay locked the rest of the time as the trans shifts up to 3rd and 4th. On some Ford vehicles this lock-up can be felt as it’s happening (locking) more with some models then others. They have gotten better with programming with how you feel the lock-up (or lack there of) in the last few years, and their starting to not lock it as early when up shifting on the newer Five and Six Speed automatic transmissions. But for sure on the 4R70W in the Marauder and several other Fords with that trans, it is programmed to lock in 2nd shortly after it shifts into 2nd, and stayed locked the rest of the time as long as the car is accelerating… even at WOT!! The only time it un-locks once your moving above 25mph or so in any gear above 1st is when you cost or lift a little so that the drive-line doesn’t clunk. And they also unlock on some Fords when your in OD gear cruising at lets say at 60mph and you just lightly tip into the throttle and begin to lug the motor, but not quite enough tip in to force a down shift. On most newer Ford though the last few years, their starting to not unlock any more even when coasting at speeds above 50ish because of better Dash-pot programming, which also helps prevent drive line clunks when lifting off the throttle.

As far as the durability of the stock, single lock-up clutch in a production Ford converter goes. I can only say What I’ve seen my self and customer cars, which is a ton of them. When I tune a Marauder both with a blower or N/A I do not let the converter lock at all until its in 4th gear and at speeds just above 60mph. This has proven to be a very successful tune for me and of course all the people who have experienced it them selves by using one of my tunes. It has not caused any problems at all or at least this locking philosophy of mine hasn’t been blamed for any premature trans failures. It works and it works very good. I do not let the converter lock at WOT on most of the tunes I do unless it’s a very powerfull or a certain type of combo. On all the Marauder tunes I do for the most part though, the converter never locks at WOT the whole time the pedal is at WOT. Except for when I dyno a MM and many other Fords. I do lock the converter for chassis dynoing for more accurate and real results. Also locking the stock single disc at WOT so far hasn’t been a problem on my MM and several other’s I’ve done.

On certain high HP combos I do although lock the converter at WOT in 3rd gear a few seconds after the 3rd gear shift occurs. Locking to early can bog you down. I’ve even tried locking in 2nd at WOT and shift right into 3rd while locked. This has proven to be hurtful to the 4R70W’s with really big power.

The only reason I haven’t changed the torque converter on my own MM and many others we work with is very simple. It doesn’t need it. When you make big block, massive, over kill, “has to be experienced” off idle torque with my over spun Trilogy blower, you just don’t need any more torque multiplication then what the stock converter already delivers. I’m not saying that a little looser wouldn’t hurt… and that looser converters in general are never necessary. Their just for the most part not needed in a Trilogy equipped car because of the amount of off-idle TQ they make. When the vehicle is mostly stock or has a centrifugal type blower, a looser converter is defiantly a good thing for better acceleration. But looser converters can feel weird in heavy cars and undoubtedly make more trans heat when not locked. I’m not a big fan of high stalls in trucks and other heavy cars. Especially if the car is under geared. Tall rear gears make loose converter look and feel better all around because of better mechanical advantage. “No disrespect” Billy, Just my opining of loose Torque converter’s… I’ve owned lots of cars with them and still do in my ’88 Mustang LX with a 392cu in stroked 352W with 19psi of Vortech.

My ’04 Mach -1 which has a Kenne Bell 2.2L Screw type blower set up for 19 psi of boost makes so much TQ off idle that this coming Spring/Summer I’m forced to take out the stock 3.55 gears in the rear as much as I wanted to be able to say that the bulk of the power train was stock, and change them out for 3.27’s or maybe even 3.08’s. And the stock 1800ish stall speed is proving to be to loose because of the crazy low end TQ the KB makes at my boost level off idle. So some time soon me and JW from SCT are going to figure out what production Ford converter to use from some other Ford vehicle that will be tighter then the stock Mach-1 unit. He has experience in this area because of his extensive work with Fords transmission R&D when he worked there.

[BillyGman]

Lidio, thanks very much for chiming in on this one. I was hoping that you would, because this whole converter unlocking and locking issue can get a bit confusing, at times, as well as alittle complicated to sort out. I didn't take offense at anything you've stated. Infact even though i have the Stallion converter myself, and with a 3,000 RPM stall speed along with the Trilogy blower, i alwys tell people who ask me about the Trilogy set-up, the same thing that you said, that if they're going to Trilogize their Marauder, then they don't neccessarily need a higher stall speed, nor the Stallion Torque converter.

I think that Stallion converter is a good product, and I obtained an impressive .70 second reduction in my quartermile ET at the track from that converter alone. But I installed that converter well before I even was seriously considering getting the Trilogy Supercharger. So I don't directly disagree with anything that you've stated here in this thread,and I appreciate your expertise and experience in this subject.

Darrin, I appreciate your comments as well, and I wasn't trying to go at it with you. I just think that you cannot apply one blanket statement to this issue such as to say that people shouldn't be purchasing the Stallion single plate converters for their Marauders. because as you can see by Lidio's comments, he hasn't noticed any problems with his Marauder customers who have the Stallion converers. your car, and your tuning issues were apparently a different application when it came to converter choices as far as lock-up goes.

[dirtyd0g]

My ’04 Mach -1 which has a Kenne Bell 2.2L Screw type blower set up for 19 psi of boost makes so much TQ off idle that this coming Spring/Summer I’m forced to take out the stock 3.55 gears in the rear as much as I wanted to be able to say that the bulk of the power train was stock, and change them out for 3.27’s or maybe even 3.08’s. And the stock 1800ish stall speed is proving to be to loose because of the crazy low end TQ the KB makes at my boost level off idle. So some time soon me and JW from SCT are going to figure out what production Ford converter to use from some other Ford vehicle that will be tighter then the stock Mach-1 unit. He has experience in this area because of his extensive work with Fords transmission R&D when he worked there. The stock stall speed on your marauder converter is closer to 2400rpm, not 1800. You will not find a lower or even different stall 11&1/4 torque converter built from ford for the 4r70w. You would have to go to a 12 inch converter which I do not recommend. If you are serious about going lower stall let me know I have a very good suggestion for you. Staying with a 11 inch converter. The stock marauder converters are built pretty well. The weak link on the 04 model is the clutch still. I would post a picture ,but I can't seem to get that picture working. The clutch has a grooved surface that makes the apply smoother. The biggest problem is that the clutch was bonded to a thin plate that is laser welded to the front cover. The fins inside all marauder converters are furnace brazed, The 03+ models have solid rivets( big improvement from the previous hollow ones) and a teflon sealing ring in place of the previous rubber O-ring. Have a look for yourself
http://members.tccoa.com/dirtyd0g/Converter/MTCHPTURBINE.jpg

The 03+ units also got a new design lockup piston and a torrington bearing on the impeller side of the stator.
Alan

[Darrin]

your car, and your tuning issues were apparently a different application when it came to converter choices as far as lock-up goes.Please keep in mind that my statements are to protect someone from spending $750-800 on a converter and smoking the clutch and then having no warranty coverage from PI because it was used in an application that is specifically addressed on their website as not what it was designed for.
PI says it here http://www.converter.com/stallion.htm. "***Note the multi-disc converters are a MUST for applications that are locking-up the torque converter under WOT." Now that is a blanket statement.
Yes, my car is different in that it is a Mustang, but there were no tuning issues as far as I know. The car had a stock Ford tune and worked perfectly well with the stock converter. Lidio said that the stock tune on your cars locks the converter at WOT as well. So, this is just a larger version of the same boat. I trust he knows what he is talking about if he is tuning these cars. I don't know what the stock program on your cars does, I am going by where Lidio said "But for sure on the 4R70W in the Marauder and several other Fords with that trans, it is programmed to lock in 2nd shortly after it shifts into 2nd, and stayed locked the rest of the time as long as the car is accelerating… even at WOT!!" Again, if he is tuning them I trust he should know.
I didn't build or design the converter, PI did. I do not benefit in any way by visiting these sites and taking the time to make lengthy posts to let people know what happened to mine and what PI said about it other than to be able to sleep at night. I actually get into a lot of hassle over it, but it is worth it to me to let those listening know.
I don't pretend to know more about this product, your car or mine than the manufacturer does. All I am relaying is that if you choose to use this product in a way that the manufacturer specifically states that you should not, then you should be prepared to eat the repair cost. If you overheat that paper clutch and it peels then the cost could be your transmission as well as the converter. Using a product in a way that the manufacturer says that it will fail makes no sense when the cost is that high.
I am not trying to go at you either. These are not my ideas. I am just telling you what PI says and how it applies to your cars based upon info that I didn't know until Lidio posted it. Look on the PI website. Call them. Tell them that your car locks the converter in 2nd gear. Don't listen to me, don't listen to anyone but the manufacturer unless that person says that they will replace the converter completely at their cost including anything damaged by it in the event of a failure caused by the lockup clutch.

I am not talking to the people who have a tune to prevent WOT lockup. I am warning those who are just reading that it is ok to use a PI single disc converter in their car and not understanding that they have to have a tune to prevent WOT lockup. I don't want anyone else to find this out the hard way. like I keep saying, I am not coming up with any of these ideas and this is not my opinion. If you read carefully, the only opinions that I shared were to say that if you are planning to run the car on the track or experience a lot of WOT in 2nd gear then I wouldn't use the single plate and later say that if you have to have a PI then to get the triple and live with the rattle. I also shared that after finding out that there was a problem with the PI single and WOT lockup that I chose to go another route and explained why. All of the rest of what I am saying is info that you can easily find from PI with a visit to their website or a call to them on the phone.
How would you feel if you were just some guy who didn't know any better and wants a converter. You go to a website for your car where you KNOW you can find out good info and you see that people there like the PI converters. You don't have time to read through all of the posts and the ones that you do see say that all is good. "Ok, so a PI converter it is... WOW, those are expensive... What is the difference between a single disc and a 3 plate??? It says hare that the single disc is good for 2400-6000 rpm and so is that other one... What does "locking up the converter under WOT" mean??? I don't think I even have a "WOT"... That must have been an option... Well, I don't have a race car, I am just looking for something better... I don't see any difference in the two except for that WOT thingy and the single disc costs a lot less.. Ah, they said it was fine so I will just go with that, I don't remember seeing where anyone said that I need some multi plate thing anyway..."
What this guy will remember is that you said it was ok. Like I said somewhere else, if the converter fails because of abuse then "Well they said it was ok..." doesn't really help much.
All I am saying is that if you use the single, know it's limitations and use it the way that the manufacturer intended for it to be used. That means that if you choose to use it then based upon what Lidio said, you will have to have a tune to remove Wide Open Throttle lockup function to meet that.

[BillyGman]

TYhanks again Darrin for your comments, and I do appreciate you looking out for all of us. For me, because I now have a tune from Lidio, then I guess I don't need to be concerned about this since he stated that he doesn't have the converter locked up during full throttle ("WOT"). But from what you're saying here, i was on borrowed time while I was running the single plate converter before I had Lidio's tune. Good info!!!!


What puzzles me, is that I'm a bit surprised that even though precision Industries was well aware of the fact they were selling me one of their SINGLE PLATE Stallion converters for my 2003 Marauder, they didn't mention anything to me about what you're saying that's included on their website now. :confused:

Infact, I specifically asked them about the multi-plate model converter, and they told me that unless I'm going to race the car alot, the single plate would be fine. So apparently, precision undustries doesn't even know that our factory stock Marauders have the torque converters locking at WOT, and that really surprises me that they're selling a product for an application that they're not educated about. So i think it's time for me to give them a call simply for knowledge about this matter, and for informational purposes.

[Darrin]

So apparently, precision undustries doesn't even know that our factory stock Marauders have the torque converters locking at WOT, and that really surprises me that they're selling a product for an application that they're not educated about. So i think it's time for me to give them a call simply for knowledge about this matter, and for informational purposes.
Good deal! :2thumbs:
Vickie usually answers the phone during the day. I would either talk to her or Jack. The number is on their website, but it is 901-466-0267

I strongly suggest that anyone interested in getting a PI converter call and talk to them. Again, according to Lidio the stock tune locks the converter at wide open throttle. Don't forget to let them know that.

If you want to protect your investment, please only listen to the manufacturer and not ANYONE else.

[Smokie]

I went to the Precision Industries web site and entered the Stallion section and tried to find the converter for our transmission, they do not list our transmission at all, what did I miss ?

[Darrin]

I went to the Precision Industries web site and entered the Stallion section and tried to find the converter for our transmission, they do not list our transmission at all, what did I miss ?
They say it is for an AODE. Same thing, just different.

[BillyGman]

They say it is for an AODE. Same thing, just different.
yes, from viewing their website in the past, and from taking to them on the phone, I was left with the impression that their webpage simply doesn't get into all of the specifics about each application, and that to find out about those things, you simply have to call them up to talk with them on the phone.

[BillyGman]

Okay, here's the deal....I just got off the phone with Jack from precision Industries......and now there could be a little mystery here about this issue, because I'm getting conflicting stories from Jack and from Lidio.....

Jack says that as far as he knows, the stock computer programming on an 03 and 04 Marauder does NOT lock-up the torque converter at WOT, and that if it did, they would only offer a multi-plate stallion converter for it, like he said that they only offer for the Lightning trucks. Now I was under the impression that the Ford Lightning trucks only come with manual trnsmissions, but that was simply an assumption of mine, and one that might be all wrong (anybody here know about that?). So we have two different stories here. :confused:

[Darrin]

Okay, here's the deal....I just got off the phone with Jack from precision Industries......and now there could be a little mystery here about this issue, because I'm getting conflicting stories from Jack and from Lidio.....

Jack says that as far as he knows, the stock computer programming on an 03 and 04 Marauder does NOT lock-up the torque converter at WOT, and that if it did, they would only offer a multi-plate stallion converter for it, like he said that they only offer for the Lightning trucks. Now I was under the impression that the Ford Lightning trucks only come with manual trnsmissions, but that was simply an assumption of mine, and one that might be all wrong (anybody here know about that?). So we have two different stories here. :confused:I don't know for sure myself, so I can only rely on what Lidio said. If he is tuning these cars, he should absolutely know what he is talking about. Any tuner would know what the car does on the stock tune.

[BillyGman]

I don't know for sure myself, so I can only rely on what Lidio said. If he is tuning these cars, he should absolutely know what he is talking about. Any tuner would know what the car does on the stock tune.That's the viewpoint that I'm leaning toward here, but if this is true, then it doesn't speak too highly of Precision Industries, does it? And I'm compelled to add here that Jack didn't sound positive about this either. He said this to me after I asked him if he's sure that the factory computer settings do NOT lock the torque converter at WOT.....> "Well I'm sure that the owner of our company wouldn't sell the single plate model for Marauders, unless he was certain that the the converters will NOT be locked at WOT with the factory computer settings"....... so even though he didn't sound too sure, that doesn't neccessarily mean that what he was telling me was wrong, however, I cannot say for certain if it's correct either. Especially in light of what Lidio has stated about the factory computer setting locking the converter at WOT. So i guess this is very much up in the air......who knows?? :confused: I'm just glad that I have Lidio's tune now, so I know for certain that the SINGLE PLATE Stallion converter on my car is NOT being Locked out at WOT.

[Darrin]

Well, I would much prefer my torque converter builder know torque converters and my tuner know tuning any day. I wouldn't fault PI too much for not knowing if that is the case.
I bet Jack is just hating me. I have people on several boards calling him. LOL

Those are great times for your car by the way.

[BillyGman]

Well, I would much prefer my torque converter builder know torque converters and my tuner know tuning any day. I wouldn't fault PI too much for not knowing if that is the case.
I bet Jack is just hating me. I have people on several boards calling him. LOL Darrin, if people are going to look at you as a trouble maker because you've brought up this issue, then that's their problem. Why shouldn't any one of us as customers of these aftermarket parts places be able to voice our concerns, and be able to share information with each other, even if that information is negative sometimes? Should we only share info when it's all good? If so, then what good do boards like this do for us as consumers who spend their $$$ ???

So I'm with you on this 100%, and I commend you for bringing this up. Especially when you've already dealt with Jack, as I too have over the phone more than once. So it isn't like we're being unfair to Precision Industries. We've questioned them about it, and have brought it to their attention, and so far, they haven't been able to provide positive answers. So should we hide this, or cover it up while keeping fellow car enthusiasts in the dark about it? Nope, not me. I won't, because now that I've spent $10,000 on my Marauder for aftermarket parts alone, I wouldn't want others to hide information from me either. And if we cannot even share info like this with one another, then online car boards are nothing more than a social club, and we don't need the internet for that.

Those are great times for your car by the way.Thanks for the compliment. I think they are too, and that's another positive thing about online car boards (this one in particular).......there are some really great aftermarket goodies to make peoples' Marauders a whole lot faster, if and when that's what they're looking for. 12 seconds flat in the quartermile with pump gasoline, and with a daily driven 4,200 LB car, that has perfect driveability in every day street traffic. How can you beat that? And that's all because of this board, and the members on it, who are more than willing to share positive as well as negative feed back on all the go-fast parts that are available for these cars. Who says capitolism is bad?

[cyclone03]

OK,
14000 miles on a PI singleplate,converter locks everyday and unlocks too.
Locks @ WOT too.
When is it going all to he!! ?

The numbers that I read on the PI single over dual was locking @WOT with more than 400HP. That info is no longer on the PI site but I'm sure thats were I read it,2 years ago.

Once again Darrin...
How did you know the converter clutch went bad?
How long had you run the converter?

[Lidio]

Even though I’ve never been face to face with Jack at “Precision Industries”, I consider him a friend because of how extensively devoted I am to him and his AOD-E/4R70W torque converters. He’s been very good to me in a couple of jams. Although I don’t use them much in the MM’s because of the Trilogy thing, I sell a ton of them in the Mustang scene…. Exclusively and only the Stallions. I got hooked on them back in 1996 and never looked back. My customers only get Stallions sold to them by me or they can bring some thing else in on their own and I will reluctantly install it.

Terry, the owner of PI has even visited my shop about four years ago or so. To me they are not a torque converter company… they’re the only Torque converter company period!! They don’t have competitors in my opining.

Now as far as the TQ locking thing at WOT on the MM’s. When you stab a MM from a dead dig, shortly after the 1-2 shift occurs, it locks the converter and keeps it locked the rest of the time your at WOT. The computer will slip or briefly unlock the TQ during the 2-3 shift as not to shock the power train to hard during the 2-3 shift.
From what I’ve seen, even the Stallions single disc TQ’s can handle this. The misunderstandings that some might be thinking is that in order to lock the converter while at WOT in lets say 3rd only while going down the drag strip like I do… people think you need a multiple lock-up disc. This is true for big power. But mostly stock MM’s with only small bolt-ons don’t need to worry about this. From what I’ve seen the stock single disc can take a pretty good pounding and the single disc in Stallions is from what I remember better then stock because it has more surface area. Plus looser, aftermarket converters do abuse the lock-up disc more because they stall or slip more thus making the lock-up clutch create more friction as the clutch applies and brings it all to a 1:1 lock-up.

This is why a lot of the guys who’ve installed Stallions in MM’s complain or notice a bog or a brief lugging just after the 1-2 shift at WOT, at about 3500-4000 rpms. This is the converter locking and it will stay locked the rest of the time its at WOT. Locking the converter at higher speeds in 3rd at WOT is about as harsh as it gets when theirs substantial power in front of it. Locking it at WOT in 2nd is not nearly as abusive to the lock-up clutch. This is why for the most part both stock and aftermarket lock-up clutches last a long time behind mild motors and even some pretty serious ones, at least from my experiences.


Thanks

[sailsmen]

Thanks for the 411!

[Dennis Reinhart]

Lidio, Jack and Terry both are great, I talk with them at least three times a month. Terry called me last week to see how I am doing, they care about there customers, and you are right its not only as a customer but also as a friend. They have great service if its not right they make it right, no questions asked, they have great product I am sold on it,

[BillyGman]

Wow, this stuff can get confusing........but I really like this thread, because atleast we've all been able to discuss this w/out anyone getting all bent outta shape............the point that "Cyclone" brought up is interesting......there have been alot of Marauder owners who put a lot of miles on their cars with the single plate Stallion converters without any major problems.I only put about 4,000 miles on the one in my car before the tune was changed by Lidio through the cip he burned for me that was a part of the Trilogy Supercharger package.


But the only thing that I can add here concerning the Stallion converter (single plate model) is that the Precision Industry company does NOT make inflated claims about performance increases w/these products.

[Darrin]

Once again Darrin...
How did you know the converter clutch went bad?
How long had you run the converter?This is the clutch out of my PI single plate converter with very low miles on it. I know there is nothing here for perspective as to clutch area, but you can see how the lining is burnt already. Also, the clutch is made of paper and the whole surface is not being utilized. The lockup piston is the early design from a stock AODE/4R70W that even Ford said was poor design and scrapped.

http://members.tccoa.com/dirtyd0g/Converter/PI%20Lockup%20piston.jpg

There there was the stator. See where they cut the edge of the fins to help get stall, but that hurts the efficiency.

http://members.tccoa.com/dirtyd0g/Converter/PI%20stator.jpg


And then there is the turbine. Notice where the holes are drilled? The are improperly located for efficiency, but do perform the function that they were intended to.

http://members.tccoa.com/dirtyd0g/Converter/PI%20turbine.jpg

As I said, when I saw the insides of this converter I wanted to cry.
Here is a pic of the old(on the right) and new(left) style lockup pistons. You can see the added material on the new one to help provide full and uniform application. The one on the left is a stock ford piston as is the one on the right. The one on the right is the one that PI uses in the single plate. The design that ford scrapped. Ford made the change to the new design in 1995 because they were having so many problems with the other.

http://members.tccoa.com/dirtyd0g/Jmiller/JM11%20(Medium).jpg

The pics speak for themself if you know what you are looking at and these are facts, not opinion. This is not an old design PI converter either. It is still less than a year old.

[Joe Walsh]

Was a conclusion ever reached in regards to the Lock-up/WOT issue and PI's single plate Stallion TC??
From Darrin's last post it looks like the PI single plate TC is utilizing Ford's old style technology....
I'm thoroughly confused... :dunno:

The reason why I'm reviving this old thread is because I'm considering a PI Stallion TC for my new 5.0 DOHC engine.

I had previously bought an ART CARR TC with @2800 rpm stall for my new engine but ran into a major problem:
The Art Carr TC requires it's own specific flexplate with a special ctr-ctr* bolt hole arrangement. I did not know this, nor was I told this when I bought the converter.
I had Modular Performance (my engine builder) supply an SFI rated flexplate with my engine and the flexplate was balanced with the engines rotating assembly.

When I try to mount the Art Carr TC to the SFI flexplate....NO GO!! :mad:
I call Art Carr and they say: "OH! You should have received a flexplate to match with your TC!! We'll send one out to you at No Charge."
Well that's just great!!! :fire: I received the flexplate today and it is not SFI rated and of course it was not balanced with my engine! :mad2:
So if anyone wants a brand new Art Carr TC and matching flexplate let me know, because it is for sale!

P.S. The flexplate is for a 8 Bolt crank because my new engine has a forged Cobra crank.

*Art Carr bolt holes are 11.5" ctr-ctr vs 10.5" ctr- ctr.

SHEEEESH! Now I know why I hate automatic transmissions!! Give me a simple T-5 or Toploader anyday! I can pull one of those out of a Mustang blindfolded!

[Fourth Horseman]

If I understood the thread correctly (and it's entirely likely that I did not) I think it wouldn't be a problem as long as you run a custom program that does not lock at WOT. Seems like it'd only be a problem for those running the Stallion TC with a stock factory PCM program.