A New Challenger???

[derek77]

Here is the new Impala SS. It will feature a supercharged, 240-horsepower V-6 along with beefed-up suspensions, aluminium wheels and high-performance speed-rated tires.

http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/*query?04impala&Source=

[FordNut]

But it's still front wheel drive. The corporate guys just don't get it. There are lots of us that wouldn't buy a front drive car even if it had 1,000 hp.

[Madhouse]

True that.

My wife's GTP would be hella more fun to drive if it were RWD.

[martyo]

I like the MM better already. Bigger, blacker, more powerfu, RWDl!

What else needs to be said?

[prchrman]

I think us who think the MM is the answer to our need for a big, bad, comfortable, fast, beautiful, road hugging, road eating, head turning, envy generating, air conditioned, cruise controlling, sound blasting, styling and profiling car that is made for real men and women just do not understand the draw to those front wheel drive ricer want to be's made here in the states. If you go with a retro name do it right, rear wheel drive, V8, true duals, buckets and attitude. I think some of us are to old (that be me) to be able to conceive of a front wheeler being our hot rod. I had a SHO and it would run but I just could not feel good about myself even when busting a ricer. It's all about how a car makes you feel when behind the wheel. Fronties and ricers drive on, have fun, no fuzz from me.

[mdmarauder]

Second that! There is not a front wheel drive car around I would ever want.

[derek77]

Originally posted by Willie Anglin
the draw to those front wheel drive ricer want to be's made here in the states.... Fronties and ricers drive on, have fun, no fuzz from me.

Damn Man!! Did I understand that correctly? Chevy is a ricer because it is FWD!! Holy Crap!!

[MAD-3R]

FWD does not make a ricer just as RWD does not mean it isn't rice. Supra's and others are RWD from my understanding.

But no muscle car will EVER be FWD.

[SergntMac]

Bravo Willie! Could not have summed it up better. I have never owned a FWD, and I never will. Nice car, but not a challenger, not even a contender. Just the General's way of slicing off some of the high performance appearing market, with the wheels/monochrome paint scheme. Didn't they do this back in the '80s too, with their "eurosport" treatments?

However, the Impala SS does stand a chance at being the Impala PI, in the event that FMC pulls out of that market.

[derek77]

CHICAGO – Impala SS, the car that began Chevrolet’s legendary SS bloodline, will return to the Chevy lineup as a 2004 model. The announcement was made during the 2003 Chicago Auto Show.

The 2004 Chevy Impala SS will deliver more power and tighter handling with a 240-horsepower 3800 supercharged V-6, beefed-up four-wheel independent suspension and high-performance speed-rated tires with 17-inch diamond-cut cast aluminum wheels. The monochromatic black SS also will feature bright stainless steel dual exhaust tips, fog lamps, a six-gauge cluster including boost gauge, and "SS" badging.

"The 2004 Impala SS will be a thoroughly contemporary interpretation of the style and performance that built the SS heritage beginning with the ’61 Impala Super Sport," said Kurt Ritter, Chevrolet general manager. "True to this legacy, the 2004 Impala SS will be a great value compared to other cars with similar performance, and well within the reach of mainstream customers."

While boosting the performance equation, the new SS variant also will continue to offer features that set Impala apart from mid-size sedan competitors: a comprehensive safety package, solid body structure, room for five passengers, plenty of cargo space, a surprising number of amenities for the price, and a track record of outstanding quality, reliability and durability. Impala earned a 5 star/5 star safety rating, the highest U. S. government safety rating in front crash testing.

"The powertrain and chassis improvements make this car worthy of the SS badge," said Jim Campbell, Chevrolet marketing director. "The Impala SS will be a car you can live with every day without making a lot of compromises – a fun-to-drive sport sedan that builds on Chevrolet’s heritage of providing attainable performance for enthusiasts."

Chevrolet is working with the GM Performance Division to develop the Impala SS and other SS vehicles that feature strong acceleration, enhanced handling and uncompromised driveability. The first result of this collaboration is the 2003 Silverado SS extended cab short bed pickup, available in the first quarter of 2003. A new Monte Carlo SS, also featuring the supercharged version of the 3800, will debut as a 2004 model.

3800 Supercharged V-6

The Impala SS will feature the 3800 Series II supercharged V-6. This award-winning engine features a torque curve that is consistently high over a broad operating range, providing instant off-the-line acceleration and ample power for highway merging and passing. The 3.8-liter engine generates 240 hp at 5200 rpm, and an impressive 280 lb.-ft. of torque at 3600 rpm giving Impala SS excellent off-the-line performance.

The 3800 SC features a 90-cubic-inch supercharger. Performance has been enhanced over the years by refining software in the Powertrain Control Module. As a result, the engine delivers power in a smooth, linear fashion – with virtually no supercharger lag – by adding boost at predetermined points along the power curve.

Among improvements for 2004, the 3800 SC will be outfitted with a direct-mount air-conditioning compressor that reduces vibration for an improvement to the engine's already excellent noise, vibration and harshness (NVH) levels. In addition, powder-metal connecting rods replace cast-iron rods for increased durability and reduced weight.

In the Impala SS, the 3800 SC will be mated to the Hydra-Matic 4T65-E four-speed electronically controlled heavy-duty automatic transmission.

Chassis, suspension upgrades

The Impala provides a solid foundation for superb ride and handling. A unique extruded aluminum engine cradle saves weight and helps isolate engine noise and vibration, and the overall tautness of the Impala’s body structure allows chassis components to be finely tuned to enhance performance. Impala also features four-wheel independent suspension with MacPherson struts at all four corners, variable-rate power rack-and-pinion steering, electronic traction control, and large-diameter four-wheel disc power-assisted braking with ABS and race-inspired cooling ducts.

Chassis and suspension enhancements will provide the Impala SS with sportier ride and handling capabilities. Spring rates will be stiffened in both front and rear, and the rear ride height will be lowered by 10 mm. The combination will help reduce body roll in cornering and improves the driver’s "feel" of road conditions.

Impala SS also will get beefier suspension components such as 34 mm front and 19.5 mm rear stabilizer bars (compared to 30 mm/17 mm in Impala and Impala LS), along with refinements to the rear trailing link and rear strut mounts.

Goodyear P235/55R17 H-rated tires mounted on 17-inch diamond-cut cast aluminum wheels will provide Impala SS with excellent road-holding and cornering capabilities along with a smooth ride.

SS styling cues

Unique styling cues will help set the SS apart from its siblings and establish a link with other Chevy SS models. Impala SS will be available only in black with a monochromatic theme, including color-keyed bodyside moldings, "SS" badging, unique decklid spoiler and lowered front fascia with integrated fog lamps.

Other highlights include a Corvette-inspired body-color rear panel, a unique spoiler and dual bright stainless-steel exhaust tips. Inside, the Impala SS will feature a racing-inspired six-gauge cluster with boost gauge, graphite trim appliqués "SS" badging, and "SS" logos on door-trim and floor-mats.

Award-winning plant

The 2004 Impala SS will be built at the award-winning Oshawa No. I Car Assembly Plant in Ontario. GM recently added a third shift of production to allow Chevy dealers to keep up with demand for Impala, which has ranked in the "Top 10" in U.S. passenger-car sales for the past four years.

# # #

2004 Chevrolet Impala SS Preliminary Specifications

Body style / driveline: four-door, five-passenger sedan, front-engine, front-drive
Construction: two-sided galvanized steel (except roof)
Overall length (in / mm): 200 / 5080
Overall height (in / mm): 57.3 / 1456
Overall width (in / mm): 73 / 1854
Wheelbase (in / mm): 110.5 / 2807
Curb weight (lb / kg): 3563.5 / 1616.4
Engine: 3800 3.8L Supercharged Series II V-6
Displacement (cu in / cc): 231 / 3791
Bore & stroke (in / mm): 3.8 x 3.4 / 96.52 x 86.36
Block material: cast iron
Cylinder head material: cast iron
Valvetrain: OHV, two valves per cylinder
Horsepower (hp / kw): 240 / 179 @ 5200 rpm
Torque (lb-ft / Nm): 280 / 380 @ 3600 rpm
Transmission: Hydra-Matic 4T65-E, four-speed electronic heavy-duty automatic, FWD
Brakes: power-assisted four-wheel disc with ABS
Traction control: electronic traction control standard
Front suspension: independent, MacPherson struts, coil springs, hollow 34 mm stabilizer bar
Rear suspension: independent, MacPherson struts, dual rate coil springs, hollow 19.5 mm stabilizer bar
Steering type: power-assisted rack-and-pinion
Passenger volume (cu ft / liters): 104 / 2945
Cargo volume (cu ft / liters): 18.6 / 526.7
Wheel size and type: 17-inch diamond-cut aluminum
Tires: Goodyear P235/55R17 H-rated

[MAD-3R]

Going to scary the hell out of the Maxima and the Sentra set.

Bet the dreded Sable can still take it though. :lol:

[Flash]

Looks like a re-badged Buick

Park Avenue Ultra 3.8-liter 3800 Series II Supercharged V6

http://www.buick.com/parkavenue/specs/engine/

[GarageMahal]

Two cylinders short. Nuff said.

[BeaSStMaster]

You've got it right ... GM has lost touch with their own roots. For a while, there was hope that the Impala SS would return to it's roots as a rebadged Holden Commodore SS with the 5.7 Litre Gen III 8-banger. This 6-cylander, front-drive job doesn't deserve the badge and, frankly is a disappointment. I thought that Lutz's return would have an effect beyond glitzy concept show cars, but it appears not to be the case.

Rear-drive, 8-cylanders, 4-doors, and the power and presence to make a statement. The 90's Impalas and the MM have what it takes. What GM fails to understand is that "Not for everyone" isn't an insult!

:coolman:

[derek77]

I've got to go to bat for Lutz now. He has only been there for a little over two years now. It take years to build a production ready car. You have to give it more time to see his work. There is word that the 2006 Impala will get a V-8. This is also the same time that the Commodore gets a remodeling job.

And you have to admit, this is better than nothing. Look at it like a GTP.

[LincMercLover]

One, torque steer will probably be terrible.

Two, it's FWD, sucky burn outs :D

Three, it weights 700lbs less than us.

Four, it's under powered compared to us.

If GM's trying to match the MM, they aren't doing a very good job...

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by derek77
Here is the new Impala SS. It will feature a supercharged, 240-horsepower V-6 along with beefed-up suspensions, aluminium wheels and high-performance speed-rated tires.

http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/*query?04impala&Source=

Maybe GM thinks that's a challenger for the last Impala SS.

I saw an Impala "Sport" version the other day. Very pathethic. Looks pathetic, sounds pathetic (sounds like a stock Honda civic)

There is absolutely no comparison between that FWD Impala and any "Panther " made

[grzellmer]

Derek

I disagree - to those who have been awaiting the return of what the 94-96 SS was, this is worse than nothing. Thats because GM will spend the next 3 or 4 years focusing on a car the original SS enthusiast wouldn't be caught dead in.

Better to hope than to have no hope at all.

[RCSignals]

By Dave Guilford and K.C. Crain
Automotive News / February 10, 2003

The Chevrolet Impala and Monte Carlo will get V-8s when restyled versions come out for the 2006 model year, dealers were told at the make meeting.

The two mid-sized cars will offer optional supercharged engines for the 2004 model year, said Tommy Brasher, co-chair of the Chevrolet dealer council and owner of Brasher Motor Co. in Weimar, Texas.

In addition:

# Chevrolet wants to get an additional 250,000 unit sales annually with the new Malibu mid-sized car, SSR pickup roadster, Colorado pickup and Equinox small SUV.

# Chevy dealers at the divisional Mark of Excellence meeting in late spring will see the new Corvette and a Cavalier replacement on the Delta small-car platform, both due for the 2005 model year.

# Chevrolet will push to get all major city dealer groups into local marketing groups. Dealer groups have the option of joining the marketing groups, which work with Chevrolet on advertising.

# Chevrolet expects the redesigned Malibu and the new Malibu Maxx, a sport wagon variant, to draw younger customers to the brand. Also, one dealer said he was pleased that Chevrolet will offer a 4x2 crew cab version of the Colorado, which will replace the S10.

# Chevrolet wants to increase the percentage of dealers in its certified-used program, which stands at 60 percent.

Brasher said the company also is enforcing standards and has removed some dealerships from the certfied-used program.

[RCSignals]

More bad news for GM.....

The State of California has forced GM to extend the warranty on 3/4 Millions trucks and SUVs. It is expected it will cost GM $100 MILLION dollars. Ouch, imagine once the other states become involved.

California requires General Motors warranty extension

February 12, 2003

By DON THOMPSON
ASSOCIATED PRESS

SACRAMENTO -- California regulators said Tuesday they are requiring General Motors Corp. to extend its fuel injector warranty coverage on about 700,000 light- and medium-duty sport utility vehicles, trucks and vans dating from the 1996 model year.

The regulators said the warranty extensions will protect air quality by helping vehicle owners repair fuel injection systems that can spew more pollution if they are not working properly. The extensions on vehicles sold through the 2001 model year could cost the company $100 million, the California Air Resources Board estimated.

General Motors disputed that the cost will be anywhere near that high.

"More than 75 percent of the respective vehicle owners have not and may never experience a problem," the company said in a statement.

"For the remaining customers who have experienced problems, most have had the problem resolved after following a simple cleaning and maintenance procedure which has been in use since Feb. 2000, and covered under the original extended warranty policy."

GM will soon begin notifying vehicle owners that the original 10-year, 100,000 mile warranty is being extended to 10 years, 200,000 miles, with repairs at no cost.

The Air Resources Board described GM's Sequential Central Port Injector (SCPI) fuel system as "trouble-prone," and said malfunctions may prompt "Service Engine Soon" dashboard warning lights, misfires, rough idles, and starting problems. The problems stem from deposit ac***ulations that may cause poppet valves to stick and fail, the board said.

"Malfunctioning fuel injection systems can cause significant increases in air pollution," the board's executive officer, Catherine Witherspoon, said in announcing the decision.

The system was installed on GM sport utility vehicles, pickup trucks and vans with 4.3L, 5.0L, and 5.7 liter engines.

GM agreed to extend the warranty in December, but asked that a public announcement be delayed until it corrected a production problem on a new fuel injection system called Multiport Flexible Injection.

The company will clean the fuel injection system the first time there is a problem and replace it with the new system if it fails a second time. It also will reimburse owners who paid for repairs.

The air board put GM's cleaning cost at $115 per vehicle and replacement cost at $350.

The board said GM agreed to extend the original three-year, 50,000 mile warranty four years ago when problems with the fuel injectors were first brought to its attention. At that time, the company agreed to provide cleaning, but not replacement, for 10 years or 100,000 miles.

[RCSignals]

GM recalling 1.5 million vehicles to fix steering problem

By HARRY STOFFER | Automotive News

WASHINGTON -- General Motors is recalling about 1.5 million cars and minivans to repair a problem that makes steering difficult.

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autow eek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=06681205

[RCSignals]

one of the new Impalas with a V8 will still be FWD, and likely have even worse torque steer

[prchrman]

Just go to show that you waste breath and ink on us rwd guys. How bout that punch in the corner and the back come around a little, boy howdy!

[RCSignals]

Here are pictures of the new Mercury Montego. A FWD challenger for GM

http://home.att.net/~biker16/montego_01a.jpg

http://home.att.net/~biker16/Montego02a.jpg

[Macon Marauder]

Looks like a Marauder mated with a Sable! Not bad, though - except for the dash - yuck!

[prchrman]

Looks like it just rolled off the autobahn, Bravarian Mercury Works

[vaderv]

I think GM is going after the "performance" market that is scared of real performance. Lets face it ladies and gents the car we drive scares the hell out of a lot of people. The look, size, sound and rear wheel drive will intimidate most consumers. Hence our title of the 2%rrrrrss. I personaly feel for the SS purist but maybe just maybe it will get some market share back from the imports. That is a good thing.

[merc406]

A Challenger? Nope aa Ricer in my book.

Love the new merc, maybe they will even build it.

[SergntMac]

Bulls**t!

Next?

[TAF]

Sarge,

Oh, so few words..yet volumes said!

[Marauderman]

Well-can't a guy get a word in here--Gosh!! Takes forever to read thru all this-----

Simply said--Sarge and Todd--- Agree with them!!!

Nothing more that spin-offs from what our MM has created ....and it's still stired up..( replaces another word)

[LincMercLover]

LOL, be careful marauderman... Remember, we are kind of a "spin-off" of the late 90's Impala SS's. But then again, what car ISN'T a spin off on another car?

[Billatpro]

A "YUGO"

[derek77]

Originally posted by RCSignals
More bad news for GM.....

The State of California has forced GM to extend the warranty on 3/4 Millions trucks and SUVs. It is expected it will cost GM $100 MILLION dollars. Ouch, imagine once the other states become involved.

California requires General Motors warranty extension




GM recalling 1.5 million vehicles to fix steering problem

By HARRY STOFFER | Automotive News

WASHINGTON -- General Motors is recalling about 1.5 million cars and minivans to repair a problem that makes steering difficult.


What the hell does this have to do with the subject?!?!? We could go on for days talking about the problems car problems and recalls. That's just dumb.

[beemer]

During my commute I often pass by a woman driving a new Monte Carlo with SS badging. A quick pull in behind revealed the wonderful GM ploy of fake dual exhaust. LOL one into two. This phenomenon can also be found on the Cadillacs as well, and the y-pipe is even more visible.
Style over substance.

Paul:D

[Geo]

The new Impala SS is a joke in my book. Just like no 94-96 Impala SS owner would have ever considered a a 2K Impala, the SS Impala is no exception.

I personally think that The General is playing us like a bunch of needy new-car-buyer idiots. They will probably make an RWD Impala SS and a Monte Carlo SS one day but not before people spend they're hard earned monthly payments for 3 years and then HAVE to trade it in for the real thing; an excellent way to make money.

[grzellmer]

Geo

People aren't going to put money down on the interim version. They'll buy something else. I know whereof I speak. I have $3K on my GM card that I could have put toward a new car. $3K in rebates and $3K on the card. I could have bought pretty much any car in the Generals stable for at least $6K under invoice.

And I bought an MM...

GZ

[jgc61sr2002]

Real cars have a frame and rear wheel drive like the MM. Have had many front wheel drive cars and I am of the opinion the are only good for commuting to work or what ever. JOHN

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by merc406
Love the new merc, maybe they will even build it.

They will build that Montego. It's the Mercury answer to the up coming Ford 500. But, they are both FWD

[RCSignals]

GM is offering $3500 rebates on the Impala and $4000 rebates on the Buick.
When Ford started offering rebates on the MM, people (not necessarily here) jumped up with a load of criticisms of how it was obviously because the Marauder was a flop. Where are the criers now on Impala and Buick?

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by derek77
What the hell does this have to do with the subject?!?!? We could go on for days talking about the problems car problems and recalls. That's just dumb.

It is in response to



a track record of outstanding quality, reliability and durability

They are fact, not dumb.

You don't have to go on for days about Ford recalls, they get printed on the front page of every newspaper, no matter how insignificant

[RCSignals]

even more bad news for GM


On top of the $100 Million dose of public humiliation the State of California dished out to GM this week, last weeks massive recall for steering problems, today's stock downgrade to Sell, the tumbling of truck sales, the dismal failure of the Avalanche and Aztec, we now have this rant on GM...

by Peter M. DeLorenzo

GM's "Culture Of Invincibility."

Detroit. After three-and-one-half years of Ranting in these pages, it is still refreshingly unsurprising to see that the more things change at GM - the more they remain the same. For all of their newly found bluster and reinvigorated swagger, for all the optimism and signs of life directly attributable to bringing "Maximum Bob" Lutz on board, for all of the glowing reviews of CEO Rick "The Rick" Wagoner that seem to be appearing almost daily, I'm afraid it's the same-old, same-old for GM.

Why?

They announced last week at the NADA convention in San Francisco that they will be adding Buick and Saturn minivans for the 2005 model year.

Excuse me, but - huh?

GM VP John Middlebrook stated that GM will be going after the high-end of the minivan market with these new entries and that they will feature "innovative" designs. He even referred to them as "mid-vans" to assure the media that these vehicles would be different and better somehow. Middlebrook reminded everyone that the minivan market is still at one million units, with GM getting around 20 percent of it and wanting more.

That's all well and good, John, but doesn't it seem just a tad ironic that with the market moving to crossover wagons and more versatile passenger sedans, GM is unleashing an assault on a market that's actually shrinking - and will continue to do so?

And to make matters worse, these minivans will not be a new, breakthrough take on the genre - they will only have cosmetics to differentiate them from the other GM offerings by Pontiac and Chevrolet (which will be reskinned).

This in a minivan market dominated by the Chrysler Group on the domestic side and by Honda on the import side of the equation - a market GM is struggling to compete in as it stands right now?

In the immortal words of Vince Lombardi, "What the hell is goin' on out there?"

As I've said from the beginning of this publication, it seems that every time GM takes three positive steps forward, somehow they always take five steps back at the same time.

For every great advanced pre-production concept unveiled at the NAIAS, they always manage to add the little detail of "available in about a year" - or even two, or more, while their competition surrounds them on the show floor with competitive models available for sale right now.

For every new gee-whiz Pontiac concept unleashed, there always seems to be a downer to go along with it - like the aforementioned availability issue or the fact that the new GTO looks like a generic-looking coupe with Cadillac Catera styling overtones - stuffed with a Corvette engine.

For every "Stop whining" speech from "The Rick," there are always nagging little details and questions that get in the way - like the Fiat investment embarrassment, the handling of Daewoo, or the fact that the Asians are eating their lunch in market share, and that the very core of GM's profitability - the light truck market - is about to come under intensive assault by Toyota and Nissan (not to mention Ford's F-150 juggernaut).

I think that this three steps forward, five back M.O. of GM goes back to one thing: Its "culture of invincibility."

You have to remember, after all, that this is a company that, once upon a time, actually had to "put on the brakes" with its sales efforts to avoid going over a 50 percent market share in the U.S. market - in fear of the occasional talk in Congress to "break up General Motors." At that time, GM was so utterly dominant that it dictated design direction, engineering, marketing, advertising and pricing for the entire market. Whatever they did, their competition had to match or else be in danger of falling even farther behind.

But that was 35 years ago - and counting. That's when the import onslaught on the American market was in its infancy, and absolutely no one could envision a time when GM would be struggling at around 28 percent of the market, like they are now.

The idea that GM could carefully guide the American car buyer through its infamous "ladder" system created by Alfred P. Sloan - where you'd start out with a Chevy, and then progress through various stages of life with Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick and finally ending up with Cadillac for your sunset years - was brilliant at the time, but it became obsolete easily 25 years ago. The imports made sure of that. Consumers had new choices and new options, and GM, with its poorly executed product lineup and atrocious quality scores, watched its market share dwindle.

But this is not news, by any means, because GM's decline has been chronicled by countless books and publications for the better part of two decades now.

It's just amazing to me that after all that's happened to this corporation, the missteps and blunders, its near-death financial crisis in the early '90s, standing by and allowing the imports to take over the passenger car market, the bungling of Saturn, the Brand Management disaster, seeing its market share continue to hang by a thread in spite of the largest incentives offered in automotive history, etc, etc. etc., - after all of that, they still cling to the delusion that they'll regain their rightful place as the dominant player in the U.S. market and stem their market share erosion, in spite of everything pointing to the contrary.

And because of that attitude they steadfastly refuse to deal with their basic, fundamental problem which I have hammered on repeatedly and relentlessly since starting this publication - and that is that they have too many models, offered by too many divisions, sold by too many dealers, for a company controlling 28 percent of the market.

And they have done nothing about it.

Now in fairness to the denizens of "The Tubes" - they have found it virtually impossible to cut the number of their dealers. Every dealer I've talked to acknowledges the fact that there are way too many GM dealers out there and that they're fighting each other instead of the competition, but to a dealer, they always want the "other" guy to go down - not them.

But nonetheless, the fact that the traditional GM divisional/dealer structure still exists in spite of everything that's happened - and in the face of ruthless competition from all sides - is beyond baffling.

I wrote a column two years ago that imagined a future GM stripped down to its bare essence, offering one standout product in each segment they competed in, apportioned from what would be left of their divisional nameplates. A small car, a midsize, car, a full size truck, a luxury car, etc. The idea was that with 28 percent of the market and below, GM couldn't possibly afford to market the number of nameplates that they have now, and that by consolidating their efforts and concentrating on creating best-in-class entries in whatever segment they wanted to compete in, GM could successfully navigate a return back to a healthy, profitable enterprise not sickly dependent on incentives.

Which gets back to today's subject of GM offering two new minivans for Buick and Saturn in 2005, to go along with their Pontiac and Chevy entries. GM doesn't need four minivans to blanket their bloated dealer structure - they need just one good one that competes on equal footing with whatever the best-in-class vehicle is.

And if you extend that train of thought out, GM could easily apply that product strategy to every segment they choose to compete in.

I firmly believe that GM will not be able to gain market share in the future, rather they will struggle to maintain it, no matter how good their product lineup becomes, or how big their incentives get - because they will continue to cannibalize sales from their own divisions due to their outdated operating structure.

It is a company that's operating in a time warp, a company that desperately wants to believe that it's just a matter of time before things turn the corner, yet they adamantly refuse to deal with the ultimate issue that will determine their ability to compete in the future. Creating more nameplates and spreading them out around an antiquated dealer/divisional structure will never be the answer, but GM obviously believes differently.

After all, they don't operate in a product-focused "culture" of high-performance.

And they don't exist in a product-focused "culture" of luxury-performance and/or prestige.

They don't even thrive in a product-focused "culture" of quality.

Instead, they operate in a non-product-oriented "culture of invincibility" - a strange Twilight Zone of what once was, and will likely never be again.

Thanks for listening, see you next Wednesday.

[Bigdogjim]

Oh well I am even more happy I got the MM. Could yoou see the Big Dog in a FWD whatever? Happy to be in the 2% class.
RCSignals: Thank you for the info.

Big Dog :rock:

[derek77]

Originally posted by RCSignals

They are fact, not dumb.

You don't have to go on for days about Ford recalls, they get printed on the front page of every newspaper, no matter how insignificant

It IS dumb because what you are posting has nothing to do with the new Impala. Aren't we talking about the Impala SS and what we think about it. And I never said anything about Ford's recalls. I was talking about cars in general. You're making this a "Chevy sucks, Mercury Rules" post.


Originally posted by RCSignals
GM is offering $3500 rebates on the Impala and $4000 rebates on the Buick.
When Ford started offering rebates on the MM, people (not necessarily here) jumped up with a load of criticisms of how it was obviously because the Marauder was a flop. Where are the criers now on Impala and Buick

That's easy. The Impala and I guess the Buick LeSabre were already selling well even before the incentives and rebates were offered, which makes it a great deal. The MM on the other hand was not selling well when they were offered. So now that makes it a hell of a deal when you go to the dealer for a MM because they want to get them off their lot.

[SSMOKEM]

Even though I personally do not like the new "Wimpala", it's a sad state of affairs when the new model sells twice as much in one year as all 3 years of the 94/96 Impala SS put together.

It goes to show ya, also as evidenced by Marauder sales, that most people don't like the large intimidating cars that we love. Both Ford and GM are doing what large companies do best, catering to the lowest common denominator and making money at it.

Also, last I heard, GM is making tons of money from it's financing division, and I'm sure Ford is also. Cars just happen to be one of their product lines.

You need to be much smaller to successfully produce niche cars, GM & Ford are just too big.

Outside of the Marauder, the only other decent large car is the Mercedes S600, but at a $120,000 price tag. We don't really have much choice anymore. My next car will be a 1968 Impala with a 502 rat motor. Screw the new models, none make my blood boil anymore.

[prchrman]

D77, man you just had to know this thread would generate some debate.
Religion, politics and car brand loyalties get people going and this opened up one of the big 3. State your case and stand for what you believe, I can respect that but you had to see flack coming even if appearing irrelevant to you. We all be good folk and the debates always supplies us with more needed info. I think it is great to have some good hearted ribbing, we all know about ford AOD's and chevy rear ends, so nobody is completely clean. God bless America!

[mdmarauder]

Not to start a flame war or anything. But as a Marauder owner I don't have any interest at all in a FWD Gm car. Now, if you want to talk about the 1994-1996 Impala SS that's more relevant.

[tetsu]

Originally posted by FordNut
But it's still front wheel drive. The corporate guys just don't get it. There are lots of us that wouldn't buy a front drive car even if it had 1,000 hp.

I for one would gladly buy a 1000hp FWD car, if it was similarly priced
and otherwise configured to my MM.

I'd prefer RWD, but if I could choose 300hp/RWD 1000hp/FWD I'd take the ponies and Go Go GO!!

Johnny

[LincMercLover]

1000HP FWD? Umm... that would take A LOT of strengthening to the front transfer case and even then, you slam the gas, you might as well not even bother to steer...

[tetsu]

Oh yeah. From the title of the original post I thought he was gonna
announce a new Hemi powered Dodge....got all excited fer nuttin!

Johnny

[tetsu]

Originally posted by tetsu
I for one would gladly buy a 1000hp FWD car, if it was similarly priced
and otherwise configured to my MM.

I'd prefer RWD, but if I could choose 300hp/RWD 1000hp/FWD I'd take the ponies and Go Go GO!!

Johnny

Who needs to steer? I'm only gonna go in a straight line for about 1/3rd mile anyhoo.

Johnny

[LightningVic]

Hey I realize I am getting on the bandwagon a little late here, but what is the deal with the Sable comments? is this sarcasm? As far as I know, Sables cant even beat my LX sport. Also, these cars are always overrated. I raced a 4 door pontiac GTP from a roll the other day, With a passenger as a witness, and I even started from behind. I pulled even with him by 80 and I was about a length ahead of him at 110. These cars have 240 hp, but isnt there more driveline loss through the FWD?
I dont know what it is about my car, maybe I got a lemon or something, but it is faster than it should be i guess. I have raced 2 marauders now, 1 beat me by a little bit, and the second just couldnt shake me. Perhaps I broke it in really nicely? Anyway, this fwd musclecar stuff is crap. A few years back motor trend did a comparo of the muscle cars. Ramair Transam, Lightning, camaro SS, dakota RT, and GTP. They all liked the GTP, but they all agreed that it was not a muscle car because of its FWD.
Oh in a minor note about my story, I found out 2 days after I raced the GTP that it was actually my neighbor that lives behind me. He had purchased the car earlier in the week with 20k miles on it, and he couldnt believe I beat him either. He asked me if I had the 4 valve or something, then he told me how pissed he was that he didnt get a vic if it was that fast.
Blah, Long live the Ford Full size rear drive full frame bucket seated true dual exhaust cars. (hehe neat way to include myself in the marauder bunch huh?)

[Macon Marauder]

The Sable comments are an inside joke. A while back, a troll dropped in and dissed the Marauder. He even said his wife's Sable was faster.

He was quickly dealt with.

[MAD-3R]

It's a running gag.

A while back, a member(now banned) posted this

""Maybe you guys didn't hear what I said......1994 IMPALA SS BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF ME!!!! And I mean bad! Ford had something to shoot for & blew it guys! My wifes Sable gave my MM a great run! We raced to 80mph & she got me by 1/2 car!!!""

So, now we got Sable jokes,
:lol:

Beware the Sable

[LightningVic]

ah. wow he must really not know how to drive. OH wait I know what happened, he must have confused the accelerator pedal with the break pedal. Or perhaps he feels that part throttle is better than full throttle. Thanks for clarifying though, I was getting scared, because I know I can at least basically keep up with you guys, and the thought of a sable beating me would have probably made me urinate on my driver seat and then set the car on fire.

[mdmarauder]

Crown Vic, keep up with a Marauder?

[Marauderman]

LML-
Quote-
" We are kind of a "spin-off" of the late 90's Impalas'. But then again, what car ISN'T a spin-off on another car? "

Guess we'll just have to settle to Agree to Disagree on this issue-

I believe the MM to be the original muscle car , era '64-'65-'67. I believe the " spin -offs" developed from the original MM --ala 427's, 409's Ford and Chevys shorty thereafter ( between 6mos to 18 months of production of the original MM)---however , after the MM was put aside till her recent re-birthing, the only so called Muscla car is being described as the '94-'96 Impala....well that is to be expected, since most do not remember the era I mention earlier, much less lived in it...hence , anything AFTER the Impala would naturally be considered a spin off of it, no matter how long from it's production date....well, 7 years is a bit long to be considered a "spin-off" to me...which I believe to be within 6 to 18 mos of production and similar in offerings....so where are we...

You feel the MM was maybe a spin-off from .... I say the MM was and is the Standard from which others follow , back then and then again now...
Until the MM conquered Pikes Peak in the '60s, the only muscle cars were those late '40 models that were street modified .....anyway...
I'll stick to my .02c worth ......

[martyo]

Johnny: If you've got 1,000 hp, you don't have to steer. Everyone just gets out of your way! Is that your Cobra for sale at KB's site?

[grzellmer]

Pardon me marauderman, but weren't the 409 chevys available in 62/63? Kind of important if your determining who was first.

[Marauderman]

grzellmer-

Your correct --- my dates (years) should have been earlier----but alot of my reasoning comes from the racing era time back then---there was a big RACE between the BIG THREE then as to who has the most HP --late 50's Mercury was involved with the the unknown( the MM) later introduced...the problem of spying on each other was tremendous...it was most difficult to keep your competitor from finding out ...there were alot of similiar cars with alot of extra HP , -not trying to establish who was 1st...just to say that - I feel the MM created the urgency to develop what we all know today as the Muscle car...

[RF Overlord]

"If Mad Max was for real - he'd drive a MARAUDER!"

Well, grz, since the original Interceptor from "Mad Max" was a 1973 Ford Falcon XB GT Coupe, you're not far off!
:rasta:

BTW, the original still exists...it's in a car museum in England

Cars of the Stars (http://www.carsofthestars.com/)

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by grzellmer
Pardon me marauderman, but weren't the 409 chevys available in 62/63? Kind of important if your determining who was first. Just to set the record straight...not taking sides here...

Thus, the Chevy SS (Super Sport) badge was born, making its production debut on the 1961 Impala Super Sport. The Impala SS ushered in a new era of Chevy performance. The 360-horsepower 409 was one of five engine choices, and the car featured extra enhancements like power brakes and steering, sintered metallic brake linings, heavy duty shocks and springs, a 7000-rpm tachometer and special SS trim and badging. Chevy sold 450 SS versions that model year, and the race was on.

[SergntMac]

Once again. "A New Challenger???" Bulls**t!

At best, the new Impala SS is an understudy who can't get her makeup straight and will blow most of the lines handed to her on stage. There is no new challenger at the present time, and I do not forsee one in the near future. The new SS is no more a comparaison vehicle to our MMs, than it could be compared to it's own daddy. It's best chance for profit is the PI market, and even then, only if FMC surrenders to ignorant public opinion.

The new GTO? Ummm...Maybe. But, build a real car first, put some on the street and we'll see what shakes out. I think it's telling that the General would undercut potential sales of the GTO to the muscle car market with a re-badged and dubbed FWD sport tape trim sedan. The General would do so only if production dates for the GTO are stalled in thought. So, until then, there is no competition for the MM, period. It is America's true muscle car of this era, and without any competition or comparasion in it's class. The MM is the lead Big Dog, and for the followers, the view never changes.

While I have a lot or respect and loyalty for the historic Impala SS, that was a watershed event of ten years ago. What do I see comming in the next ten years, not very much. And, should something really new pop up, like maybe that Hemi-wagon, the MM is already established on the street and in the hands of the 2 Percenters. Most of the bugs worked out, only a factory S/C and gear option would be needed to carry on as King of the American Production Muscle Car Road in future years.

Like I said...Bulls**t, and 50 posts later, it's still Bulls**t.

IMHO...

[TAF]

Sarge,

I wish you'd quit putting out all these "coded" responses and come right out and tell us how you REALLY feel so we can stop guessing where you are on certain subjects....tell us how you REALLY feel...will ya?

Stop "dancing around"....and "get in the mix"

:lol:

[UncleLar]

Only 2 engines make the kind of sounds I love,the American V-Twin,and the American V8.
The only REAL Muscle cars have a rompin' stompin' American V8 and rear wheel drive!

[LincMercLover]

Kilt wedgie... :D

:lol:

[SSMOKEM]

only a factory S/C and gear option would be needed to carry on as King of the American Production Muscle Car Road in future years
Hey Sarge,

You hit the nail on the head. I always have a beef with people that own 100% stock cars and go on long winded rants about how their particular model is superior.

A car that has not been altered by it's owner is just that, a car, just basic transportation. Nothing special about it, and nothing to impress me in any way.

Now once you start puting your own interpretation of what the car should be, adding the things that the factory missed, you are getting getting to the point where your car gets a personality. I believe that's when you have the right to start bragging.

Let me give you an example. My buddy Jack has a 2002 C5 Vette that is bone stock, and a 92 Mustang LX that runs 11.0s at the track. For him, the Vette is nice transportation, but the Mustang has his soul in it. He doesn't care too much about the Vette, but he sure pampers that Mustang.

When my Impala SS was bone stock, it was fun transportation, but nothing to write home about. I sure wouldn't argue about it's greatness. But now, that I've spent many hours under the hood, it's become something quite special, and pretty much untouchable by 99.9% of the cars out there.

I hope some of you MM guys will knuckle down and create that special car. I, for one, will root for you :)

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by SSMOKEM
Hey Sarge,

When my Impala SS was bone stock, it was fun transportation, but nothing to write home about. I sure wouldn't argue about it's greatness. But now, that I've spent many hours under the hood, it's become something quite special, and pretty much untouchable by 99.9% of the cars out there. I hope some of you MM guys will knuckle down and create that special car. I, for one, will root for you :)


Sshhh! Working on that as we speak...Come on Spring!

[Billatpro]

Mac, Fess up boy, whats you doin to that little girl?

[jgc61sr2002]

SSOMKEM - Thanks you're a gentleman. John:)

[RCSignals]

GM North America plans new rwd family

By Rick Kranz
Automotive News / February 17, 2003

CHICAGO - GM North America will develop a family of rear-drive cars with Holden Motor Ltd. in Australia, says Mark Hogan, GM group vice president for advanced vehicle development.

Some of the cars will be assembled in the United States and marketed by Chevrolet and Pontiac and will debut around 2007.

"Holden will be responsible for engineering (the architecture), and we are providing the management team with respect to the North American applications," Hogan says. "I have a group of guys at Holden as we speak working on the next generation for North America."

In the meantime, Pontiac will sell the V-8-powered 2004 Pontiac GTO coupe, which is built in Australia and based on the current-generation rwd Holden Monaro. The GTO goes on sale in November.

Powerful, rear-drive cars are making a comeback in the United States. Dodge, for example, will sell the Magnum, equipped with a 5.7-liter V-8, starting in spring 2004.

In January, a GM spokesman said Chevrolet would add a rwd car later in the decade but declined to be specific. It currently sells the rwd Corvette.

GM is developing most of its vehicle architectures for global applications. For example, GM's new mid-sized Epsilon architecture is shared by the 2003 Saab 9-3, Opel Vectra, 2004 Chevrolet Malibu and Malibu Maxx, and the 2005 Pontiac Grand Am.

In GM parlance, an architecture includes common components, build sequence, range of dimensions and connecting points between subsystems.

Hogan says the new rwd architecture developed with Holden will be able to produce various models, as the current architecture does.

Ford studies more rwd vehicles

By Amy Wilson
Automotive News / February 17, 2003

DETROIT - Ford Motor Co. is looking at using the platform of the redesigned Ford Mustang to produce other rear-drive vehicles.

Ford signaled its intentions when it put the Ford 427 concept, shown at the Detroit auto show, on the revamped Mustang platform.

"It's early yet," said Jim Padilla, Ford North America group vice president, at the Chicago Auto Show last week, "but the feedback on the 427 has been by and large very positive.

"Certainly it plays very well upscale, which is very encouraging to us. As a top-of-the-line Mercury or maybe in the Lincoln showroom it has possibilities.

"It could wear a top-of-the-line Ford badge. We really have to think about how to stretch the Ford range."

Padilla confirmed that the Mustang's Fox platform, which dates to 1978, would be scrapped for the 2005 Mustang, due in showrooms in fall 2004.

Ford will use a less expensive version of the rear-drive DEW platform used for the Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-Type and Ford Thunderbird.

"We're going to put a modern chassis on this vehicle," Padilla said Monday, Feb. 10, at an event announcing the Mustang's new production location at AutoAlliance International, a Ford-Mazda joint venture plant in Flat Rock, Mich.

Padilla declined to describe the changes made to the platform for the Mustang but said changes were necessary because DEW is a "very expensive" platform.

A vehicle platform is a common set of components from which a variety of vehicles can be built. Components include the floorpan, drivetrain and suspension configuration, as well as common locating points for body assembly.

With the Mustang's move to AutoAlliance, the Flat Rock plant is expected to ramp up to production of 300,000 by 2005 or 2006. That could include as many as 170,000 Mustangs, with the remainder fulfilled with variations of the Mazda6. AutoAlliance will add about 1,400 jobs and a second shift of workers.

Production of the Mazda6 sedan began at AutoAlliance in October, and the plant should build 90,000 to 100,000 in 2003 for sale in North America, said Phil Spender, AutoAlliance CEO.

Mary Olson, plant chairwoman for UAW Local 3000, says the plant has plans to start building hatchback and wagon versions of the Mazda6 in February 2004.

Staff Reporter Richard Truett contributed to this report

[grzellmer]

Classic GM

Market wants an RWD sedan now so they'll deliver one in 2007.

Geez, makes me wonder why I've bought so many GM vehicles over the years.

[Bigdogjim]

Sarge: "The MM is the lead Big Dog, and for the followers, the view never changes." I got that on a t-shirt too. Way to go! Big Dog gives a "wag of the tail" to you!

Big Dog :beer: :beer: :rock:

[RCSignals]

Not looking good for Impalas in Police service

Testimonial from another site (http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=176645&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

[jgc61sr2002]

RC - The NYPD tried front wheel drive K cars in the 1980's and the only lasted a couple of weeks on routine patrol. These cars had 100 modifications over the stock K car. They just couldn't handle the roads and they had very little ground clearence. The NYPD uses Impala's on routine patrol and the CV for Highway Patrol. The Impala is a little better than the K car. It all comes down to $. There is nothing like a rear wheel drive car with a real frame. John :)

[VaderSS]

The new Impala "SS" is not competition for the Marauder, nor will it undercut sales on the upcoming GTO.

People who are truly interested in RWD V8 powered vehicles are not going to think to themselves, "Hmm, should I get an otherwise vanilla supercharged FWD sedan?" No. The Impala "SS" will be competition for the Nissan Maxima and that vehicle's ilk. That's not to say that with a couple of mods (S/C pulleys will put it in the 13's) it won't blow our reasonably stock vehicles off the road, and outhandle us to boot, but it will lack the "flavor" that V8 and RWD supply.

The only way a Marauder or GTO buyer could be diverted to something else, is because they can't afford what they really want. Personally, no new car combines all I want in a car, at a price I can afford. An $18k Marauder convertible would be about right, but they will probably never build it, and if they do, it will take a few years to make it down to my price range(as a used car.)

I'm just happy that I was able to purchase my baby, and that I'm paying the note down faster than it's depreciateing, even while financing the entire amount and tax, with a high rate to boot.