Once again - ABS Cutoff

[flescher]

Does anyone know how I can put a switch into the ABS system to disconnect when I chose to do so?

[WantOneSoBad]

Why would you want to do that, how does that help anything?

[flescher]

I'm sure that I'll get the same flack as I had before when asking this question, but at that risk I'll answer your question. The purpose of ABS is to permit the average driver to panic stop without locking brakes while permitting the car to turn at the same time. The price one pays for ABS is that a car can always be stopped in a shorter distance without ABS (not true for advanced types of ABS that act on individual wheels independently like used in Formula 1 and other racing applications). For example, if you have 2 wheels on dirt and 2 on pavement, the ABS decreases braking to the side on dirt preventing one from locking those brakes (locked wheels on dirt are actually much more effective in braking than turning wheels) while still having maximum braking traction on the pavement side. Also, if you have never tried ABS on an icy road you have never experienced the excitment of not being able to stop a car with the brakes still working. On the other hand if people drive along listening to the stereo, talking on the phone and not paying attention, ABS is much better than maximum control. I'd like the choice of paying attention to my driving and having maximum braking available and still give other drivers the safety of inattention.
H

Why would you want to do that, how does that help anything?

[WantOneSoBad]

I see now, thank you.

[MENINBLK]

Does anyone know how I can put a switch into the ABS system to disconnect when I chose to do so?

I can't see disabling the ABS, but I can see disabling the Traction Control...

[looking97233]

um... the ABS on cars made today inc. panthers is a 4 wheel system as you describe in your post. each wheel has its own wheel speed sensor and seperate fluid line from the ABS pump. The system controls each wheel independent from the rest.

[flescher]

You are right that traction control does exactly the opposite of what one wants from a limited slip, but without a limited slip it at least does something for low traction ice kind of situations. Traction control slows down the spinning wheel with a brake application rather than transfering power to the slower wheel so it actually robs acceleration rather than maximizing it. My Marauder came with a limited slip so that isn't the issue. Sorry you don't agree with my analysis of ABS, but you might talk to some knowledgable people to satisfy yourself about my analysis. Years of sporty car racing experience are behind me on this.
H

[flescher]

Are you telling me that this is the system on the Marauder? That one can have deminished braking only on one wheel at a time? sure hasn't been my experience on poor surfaces with the Marauder.
H

um... the ABS on cars made today inc. panthers is a 4 wheel system as you describe in your post. each wheel has its own wheel speed sensor and seperate fluid line from the ABS pump. The system controls each wheel independent from the rest.

[MENINBLK]

You are right that traction control does exactly the opposite of what one wants from a limited slip, but without a limited slip it at least does something for low traction ice kind of situations. Traction control slows down the spinning wheel with a brake application rather than transfering power to the slower wheel so it actually robs acceleration rather than maximizing it. My Marauder came with a limited slip so that isn't the issue. Sorry you don't agree with my analysis of ABS, but you might talk to some knowledgable people to satisfy yourself about my analysis. Years of sporty car racing experience are behind me on this.
H

This is the way we would 'like' the traction control to work on the Marauder but it doesn't.
Instead it quickly chooses to pull the timing and fuel before applying brakes.
Not good in most situations. And as for racing, I can agree with you on that.

If you are looking for a braking application for racing, you may want to contact either Dennis Reinhart or Kenny Brown to see what they've done for the Marauder's brake systems.

But as far as disabling the ABS on the stock braking system, I don't think it can be done.
Our ABS also incorporates an Electronic Brake Force Distribution instead of the proportioning valve
that older hydraulic brakes have.

[DEFYANT]

This would be a major mistake! The ABS stops you from locking up the wheels so you dont skid. You must keep firm pressure on the pedal for the system to work properly. Disable the ABS and you will increase the distance it takes to stop the car. You also cannot steer when the front wheels are skidding.

Consider that I have been driving Panther platform vehicles since 97 and have the experiance to make this statement. I can say ABS has saved my but one a few ocations.

[MENINBLK]

Are you telling me that this is the system on the Marauder? That one can have deminished braking only on one wheel at a time? sure hasn't been my experience on poor surfaces with the Marauder.
H

You are misinterpreting the system.
The ABS system is a 4-channel (4 wheel) system.
The brakes are all applied simultaneously, but the pressure on each channel
can be automatically adjusted independantly, and individually.

[flescher]

I know that I can disable the ABS by pulling the plug on the module as I've done that before on other Fords. The brakes work fine and ABS is disabled albeit with a light on the dash. What I'm looking for is a way to disable it with a switch that will also enable it. Seems to me that a person knowlegable about the electronic system in a Marauder would know which single line could be the answer.
H

This is the way we would 'like' the traction control to work on the Marauder but it doesn't.
Instead it quickly chooses to pull the timing and fuel before applying brakes.
Not good in most situations. And as for racing, I can agree with you on that.

If you are looking for a braking application for racing, you may want to contact either Dennis Reinhart or Kenny Brown to see what they've done for the Marauder's brake systems.

But as far as disabling the ABS on the stock braking system, I don't think it can be done.
Our ABS also incorporates an Electronic Brake Force Distribution instead of the proportioning valve
that older hydraulic brakes have.

[flescher]

I don't know what a panther platform is. Can you educate me please.
I can tell you for sure that most ABS systems actually extend braking distances for reasons stated before. I don't need ABS to enable me to steer. When braking hard I either can chose to stop straight without steering or modulate pressures to stop slower and steer.
H

This would be a major mistake! The ABS stops you from locking up the wheels so you dont skid. You must keep firm pressure on the pedal for the system to work properly. Disable the ABS and you will increase the distance it takes to stop the car. You also cannot steer when the front wheels are skidding.

Consider that I have been driving Panther platform vehicles since 97 and have the experiance to make this statement. I can say ABS has saved my but one a few ocations.

[MENINBLK]

I know that I can disable the ABS by pulling the plug on the module as I've done that before on other Fords. The brakes work fine and ABS is disabled albeit with a light on the dash. What I'm looking for is a way to disable it with a switch that will also enable it. Seems to me that a person knowlegable about the electronic system in a Marauder would know which single line could be the answer.
H

Unfortunately, the correct way to disable your ABS is not by removing power and fuses from the ABS circuit.
If you were to damage the ABS module by doing so, you could end up paying $$$$$ to get it fixed.
It should be done through the ABS Computer, and I do not know if the computer will allow
a 'toggle' switch added to it, to disable ABS function while still supplying normal braking.
As I said in a previous post, Dennis and Kenny would be your best resources for that answer.

[MENINBLK]

I don't know what a panther platform is. Can you educate me please. H

The Panther platform is the chassis on which the Ford Crown Victoria, Mercury Grand Marquis, Lincoln Town Car, and the Marauder are all built on.

You joined this site 2 years ago and never read Panther in any posts ???

[KilledKenny]

There is no way to disable the ABS system with out having either Brake, ABS or Traction control warning indicators on dash lighting up. Even if you unplug the ABS module the Red Brake warning indicator will still come on due to the communication network between the different modules in the vehicle. I too dislike how the Fords ABS system works in the winter. Its true that ABS helps maintain steering control under panic stops but the ABS system does not help you stop in a shorter distance in snow or ice conditions. A few times coming to an intersection I would almost slide right threw when 1 tire would start to slide and the other 3 tires are on dry pavement. :)

[CRUZTAKER]

You are misinterpreting the system.
The ABS system is a 4-channel (4 wheel) system.
The brakes are all applied simultaneously, but the pressure on each channel
can be automatically adjusted independantly, and individually.
Correct....

This is how I was able to incorporate a Hurst Line Lock system on my brake system. It taps into just one of the two outputs from the master cylinder and before the distribution box. It only locks the front brakes via an electric solenoid.

As far as the ABS fuse, there are several folks on the Ford Lightning board that DO pull their fuse at the track. I have no comment as to whether this would harm anything because I truley don't know.

[flescher]

I would be willing to have those lights come on as long as I can disable the ABS and have a switch to select the ABS or ABS Kill mode. Any idea where I can put a switch to do so.
H
There is no way to disable the ABS system with out having either Brake, ABS or Traction control warning indicators on dash lighting up. Even if you unplug the ABS module the Red Brake warning indicator will still come on due to the communication network between the different modules in the vehicle. I too dislike how the Fords ABS system works in the winter. Its true that ABS helps maintain steering control under panic stops but the ABS system does not help you stop in a shorter distance in snow or ice conditions. A few times coming to an intersection I would almost slide right threw when 1 tire would start to slide and the other 3 tires are on dry pavement. :)

[flescher]

Sounds like I can put a switch across the fuse inputs to fdo this. Any idea which fuse it is?
H

Correct....

This is how I was able to incorporate a Hurst Line Lock system on my brake system. It taps into just one of the two outputs from the master cylinder and before the distribution box. It only locks the front brakes via an electric solenoid.

As far as the ABS fuse, there are several folks on the Ford Lightning board that DO pull their fuse at the track. I have no comment as to whether this would harm anything because I truley don't know.

[RoyLPita]

There's 2 in the fuse box under the hood. they are fuses 106 (40 amp) and 118 (20 amp). However, due to the amperage of the fuses (20-50amps), I have heard that it is best to hook up an inline relay with the switch.

[KilledKenny]

Did you want to have the switch inside or under the hood? If you wanted to have it under the hood it would probably be easier to just unplug the ABS module connector. The connector is located on the ABS/HCU assembly. On the connector you will see a gray release just slide it to the right and the connector is disconnected. Push the connector down and slide it to the left and its reconnected. If you wanted to hook up a switch inside the vehicle you will need 2 female connector ends, an in-line fuse holder, wiring and switch. Remove fuse f1.118 and add it to there. That fuse is used for module power and solenoid control which has a draw of about 6-10 amps only under full ABS activation and or low speed traction control activation. The other fuse (f1.106) is used for the ABS pump motor. The only reason I would be hesitant to do the following is due to the red brake being on all the time. In the event that something went wrong with the main braking system and you had disabled the ABS you would not know that there was a problem except for maybe brake pedal feel.

[Stocker]

Insurance companies figure payments by safety systems on the car. ABS is a price reduction item. In case of an accident, if they find the ABS tampered, it could affect if they will accept your claim or not. I can't even think of any good reason to disable the ABS. Now with the traction control switch, by the push of a button, it will disable it untill you turn it back on, or turn off the key.

[jgc61sr2002]

The ABS braking system is excellent. I would never attempt to alter a saftey feature. The results could be very dangerous.

[Captain Steve]

The ABS braking system is excellent. I would never attempt to alter a saftey feature. The results could be very dangerous.
The same thing coud be said for supercharging your car.. the engine is excellent, I would never attempt to alter a factory power setting. It could be too fast!


The poor guy just wanted an opinion on how to do something, not a sermon on why he shouldn't try. From his post he knows exactly what he wants, and just wants adivise on how to acomplish it.

[flescher]

Amen. Thanks for being smart.
H

The same thing coud be said for supercharging your car.. the engine is excellent, I would never attempt to alter a factory power setting. It could be too fast!


The poor guy just wanted an opinion on how to do something, not a sermon on why he shouldn't try. From his post he knows exactly what he wants, and just wants adivise on how to acomplish it.

[jgc61sr2002]

The same thing coud be said for supercharging your car.. the engine is excellent, I would never attempt to alter a factory power setting. It could be too fast!


The poor guy just wanted an opinion on how to do something, not a sermon on why he shouldn't try. From his post he knows exactly what he wants, and just wants adivise on how to acomplish it.


It wasn't ment to be a sermon. I was just MO and I was thinking of his safety.

[jstevens]

I better make sure I don't s/c. Might go too fast.

sorry, didn't have any thing intelligent to add. Carry on

[Captain Steve]

jgc61sr2002, my apologies if it seemed like I was aiming what I said earlier at just you, there were several posts that bothered me, yours was just quoteable.

[Warpath]

...However, due to the amperage of the fuses (20-50amps), I have heard that it is best to hook up an inline relay with the switch.

It wouldn't be necessary to use a relay because of amperage. Just choose a wire gauge and switches that can handle the amps. However, I would recommend using a relay. Using a switch alone would add a great deal of wire which may have weird effects on the system. I don't know how sensitive these systems are to modifications. You would essentially put the relay in series with the fuses and minimize the intrusion. Adding just a switch would add a great deal more.

Now, for my personal oppinion, I wouldn't do it either. I've seen videos were ABS equipped vehicles stopped shorter on ice than vehicles w/o ABS (side-to-side comparison). My advice is if ABS kicks in, push harder on the pedal to slow down quicker. It works for me.

[flescher]

I appreciate the info AND the concern (from you and others). I did back to back testing in an Audi years ago with 2 wheels on slippery surface (wet metal) on the other 2 on dry pavement. The test was intended by Audi to prove to prospective buyers that ABS is much better than without. I stopped the car faster (and straight) w/o the ABS, at which point the person running ther test came up to me and asked what kind of cars I raced. She said that wnenever she saw people do better without ABS they invariably raced some kind of road racing cars. I have other experiences with ABS that tell me that having the option because of weather and road surfaces is important. Talk to any professional automotive engineer and they will tell you that the great advantage to ABS is that it allows the driver to retain steering control during heavy braking, but that it does not produce shorter stopping distances than well controlled, well modulated braking w/o ABS.
My actual concern is with the Ford brake system: whether there is a direct enough feel through the whole boosted system to enable me to adequately modulate braking. I think that I will probably have to replace the rubber hoses in front and to the rear axle with stainless steel braided #3 line to eliminate hose growth under braking.
BUT!!! I won't be able to discern any of this unless I can disconnect the ABS and do the testing myself. I do know with normal ABS systems that disconnecting ABS allows one to stop much better on dirt roads, and that locking the brakes with spotty ice (not under all 4 wheels) is a whole lot better than that "pushing a sharp knife through soft butter" feeling that you get with ABS under these conditions. I need to try back to back stops in the dry and in the wet to see.
So - I believe that, for a trained driver and normal street car ABS systems, one can stop faster without ABS, but whether or not that is true for the Ford boosted braking system is yet to be determined after I can switch the bloody thing off.
ThANKS again,
H


It wouldn't be necessary to use a relay because of amperage. Just choose a wire gauge and switches that can handle the amps. However, I would recommend using a relay. Using a switch alone would add a great deal of wire which may have weird effects on the system. I don't know how sensitive these systems are to modifications. You would essentially put the relay in series with the fuses and minimize the intrusion. Adding just a switch would add a great deal more.

Now, for my personal oppinion, I wouldn't do it either. I've seen videos were ABS equipped vehicles stopped shorter on ice than vehicles w/o ABS (side-to-side comparison). My advice is if ABS kicks in, push harder on the pedal to slow down quicker. It works for me.

[mtnh]

If I wanted to do this to my car, I would tap into any of the 2 front wheel speed sensors and place a switch in that line. I would stay away from the rear speed sensors because I think that they are used to derive the vehicle speed for shifting, engine management, cruise control (just what a race car driver loves to use, I bet :P ) and speedometer.

Taking a front wheel speed sensor and breaking the continuity of that sensor should set the ABS warning lamp and disable ABS. You can follow the line inboard from the hubs and decide where to tap in with your switch line. I would watch where the break in the factory cable was made with regard to proximity of harsh conditions and use solder and waterproof splicing methods, up to and including the use of silicone RTV sealant.

I have also had my LS slide way into an intersection on slippery snow surfaces, and it scares the heck out of me when that has happened.

Mike