Brake kit question

[Todd]

I will be looking to put a set of brakes on my car before I start engine/power adder upgrades (beyong what is already done to her).....

I have searched a few threads and havent come across one thread that discusses all options. If I missed one in my search please link me to it.

I know of the three following kit makers for our cars.

TCE
BAER
KVR

I have looked at some of the advantages and disadvantages of both. One option that I know is a concern with the BAER is clearance and wheel weights. I would like the 14inch fronts and a back upgrade and dont want to worry about clearance. I will be running the stock rims in front and widened rears (which were just shipped out from Lidios shop 2 days ago!!!)

As I understand it from Dennis and others on this site the KVR's do not cause clearance issues at all.

I havent seen much about the TCE although I will admit not searching specifically for them. I will probably do that now.
*Edit..... Found this link on the first specific search. Amazing what the correct search does!!! http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15170&highlight=tce+brakes


Any input, advice, personal experiences would be welcomed...... And please dont limit it to just these makers. If you know of another kit maker throw them in also...

[Constable]

Don't know about brakes, but let me know what she runs with the widened rims. I imagine it'll be in the 13.30's with traction.

[Todd]

I hope..... Just gotta get the tires now!!!

[Fourth Horseman]

I'm far from an expert, but personally I like the TCE kit because of the fixed calipers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the other kits are all floating calipers.

My game plan for this spring or summer is a set of TCE brakes up front, and some new KVR rotors for the back.

[merc]

Here is a site that list the baer brake system for the marauder.
But it only comes with rear rotor only, that's my understanding

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/showphoto.php/photo/3478/sort/1/size/medium/cat/all/page/1


http://www.on-trackperformance.com/Baer%20ford%20mercury.htm

[David Morton]

I have installed the KVR set on my car, myself and it is a true bolt-on with no need to modify anything or make degrading concessions like special wheel weights or balancing trade offs.

I am an ASE Master Certified Technician and this kit is definitely the best engineered brake kit I've seen.

As for the "fixed" caliper, I don't know why anyone wants to have the pistons possibly doing all that wear and tear constantly moving on the cylinders and seals should the rotors have any runout for a street car. By my way of looking at it, fixed calipers is a reliability downgrade. Two (or four) extra seals to go bad and leak, as well as being very demanding as far as rotor runout is concerned. Very often, and especially on this type of system, rotors can warp for runout and not be detectable by just driving the car. But on a floating caliper, rotor runout doesn't matter and won't hurt a thing.

No, for me fixed calipers is not better on a street car. For a race car that is taken apart and checked after every race, yes. But I didn't even consider that kit for that very reason.

Sorry if anyone is offended, but I feel it only right to tell the truth as I see it because I have done many a brake job, been to many a brake school, and know what works best for worry free, low maintenance brakes.

That's why I couldn't say enough about how happy I am with the KVRs. Incredible stopping power, no compromises.

[merc]

By my way of looking at it, fixed calipers is a reliability downgrade. Two (or four) extra seals to go bad and leak, as well as being very demanding as far as rotor runout is concerned.


A fixed caliper is secured rigidly to the axle assembly and has at least two opposing pistons that force the pads against the disc. A sliding or floating caliper has pistons on only one side of the disc. Therefore, when the caliper acts, it must slide or float in order to bring the pad on the opposite side in contact with the disc. Nearly all original equipment calipers are of the floating type. In a system with fixed calipers, not only is the mounting much more rigid, but the stiffness of the caliper itself is greatly increased. This manifests itself in enhanced braking performance, pedal feel, and pad wear.

Also, fixed calipers do not suffer the drag (friction) from moving parts common in sliding calipers and are therefore more efficient. These calipers have a much quicker reaction time which translates to shorter stopping distances as measured from the driver's reaction point.

Wilwood rotors are precision machined to ensure the rotor surfaces are flat and parallel. Sometimes hubs, bearings or other components have runout that cause the rotor to runout. As a rule of thumb, allowable runout should be .005” - .008”. Adjust the runout by re-indexing the rotor or by placing shims between the rotor and hub, or hat. Runout should be rechecked regularly. You can assume the runout to be acceptable as long as you are not experiencing brake drag, pedal oscillation or excessive piston knock back.

May I suggest the Brake Handbook by Fred Puhn as well as Brake Systems: Oem & Racing Brake Technology by Mike Mavrigian. Both are excellent reads. There is also a terrific Grassroots Motorsports article on braking that every self-appointed brake fan should read... http://www.teamscr.com/grmbrakes.html


Enjoy your new brakes :beer:

[David Morton]

I'll be sure and let you guys know when my floating caliper set-up breaks because of it's greeeeat weakness. :rolleyes:

I don't dispute a word you say merc, in theory and practice there is no better disc brakes than fixed caliper, opposing-piston disc brakes. But in my experience (and I worked for a Chevrolet dealership and fixed many a Corvettes' brakes) they are overkill and very demanding of the best in parts as well as intensive on maintenance.

Plus, I'll give you five to one odds I can stop faster with my 14" KVRs' than anybody can with those 13.1" TCEs', (that's the biggest ones that can use our wheels) because swept area is the last word in panic braking.

I'll give you even money on the 14" Baers. You'll have to give me odds on the 14" TCEs' because you'll be sporting different wheels and tires.

5000 miles on my KVRs' so far (and I'm a hard braking fool too!) and they're still as awesome as the day I put them on. No creaks, groans or rattles.

And please don't try to shine me on with that worn-out "balance" junk I've read before. When you have the power up front where it counts, and can stop as fast as these 14" rotors enable you to stop this 4200 lb. car, the weight moves to the front wheels because a Marauder ain't no Indy car. Mine tries to stand on her nose, and the ABS computer is working overtime trying to keep the stock size rears from locking up. On our Marauder talking about "balance" is just apologizing for having less braking power up front where it matters most on a top heavy car like ours.

I been workin' on brakes for thirty years, in the real world of grease, torque wrenches and dial indicators. I'm sure the TCEs' are the best technology available.

And I'm just as sure I don't want them on my car and I wouldn't recommend them for anybody that wants the best performing brakes they can get with no compromises on wheels or balancing requirements.

You wanna get new wheels? Got the extra money to pay for them and the added cost of the TCEs and maintenance? By all means, you go get those 14" TCEs. And you'll be stopping even faster than me I bet.

PM me if you like to argue because I've said my peace and I won't be back to this thread.

[Todd TCE]

Was there a question in all of that?

I don't agree or disagree fully with some of what was said. There's a time and place for both fixed and floating calipers. I've covered the pros and cons of each before. I've also got about 150 Impala kits in service over the past seven years with very few problems related to wear and tear. Probably no more or less than any other builder.

Bias is an issue on brakes and I've covered it as has Stoptech. Proper choice of brake parts can net some valuable changes to a vehicles dynamics. Luckily the Marauder is one of them. I don't consider it a 'top heavy' car at all. From experience a car of this wheelbase and weight bias has a fair amount left on the table with regard to rear brake performance. Not all the work of the system should be placed on the front of the car. The opposite of that is the Focus for example- there's not much to help improve rear brakes on that one.

This recently posted on the 300C Forum illistrates my comments:
"with a change from the stock braking ratio of 75% front and 25% to a more balanced number (more rear brake than stock) the car seems to just squat and stop, a big reduction in front nose dive."

Swept area is a ballpark method of the brake torque equation and more you can get can't really be wrong. SA being the amount of surface area covered by the pad in one rotation. However...the pad size alone not conclusive of true performance gain. Without the exact numbers on the big floater I can't tell you what the ER (effective radius) is but I'll wager it's not really much larger. Thus even a slightly smaller rotor diameter may in fact net you the same rotor tq.

Some of that was discussed recently here on the Contour SVT forum:

"Originally posted by Todd TCE: Pad size is going to have little or no effect on your brakes. Placing the pad further out on the rotor is a good thing, not a bad one. Tall slendor pads are far more effective than short fat ones. It's called: Effective Radius."

Reply: You know, I read through this thread, not looking at the names, and I got here, and went "Holy Crap! someone that knows what's up, that's awesome!" And then I looked at the name and went dang it, I should have known it was just Todd."

The reply posted by 'RARA' one of the Ford factory engineers who designs brakes for a living. Some here might know him?

In the end it's all about what makes you happy. Bigger, smaller, fixed, floating, red, silver, black, holes, slots, whatever. If you like what you have that's all the matters.

[Fourth Horseman]

Gentlemen, thank you for the differing views on the brake kit options. I think I'm going to go with a fixed caliper design for several reasons, which have all been debated here already. Suffice it to say, I don't put a whole lot of miles on my car and I think that as a result the maintenance won't be a big issue. If it is, well, I can consider an alternate kit to replace it at a later date.