Trilogy Pulleys

[Tallboy]

I've got a few questions about Trilogy pulleys. What PSI pulley are you running? If you have a pulley other than the 9.5 PSI, did you run with the 9.5 PSI pulley first, or did you install the kit with a higher PSI pulley from the get-go? If you swapped pulleys after install, was there a big difference? I'm thinking it's gonna be kinda hard to leave MVIII without something extra for the MM...:burnout:

[MARAUDER S/C #5]

Get the K&N kit, it adds up to 20 rwhp and also raises the boost! ;)
Btw, I have the stock 9.5 pulley which is plenty for me because I want my motor to last.

[Bradley G]

I have the stock 9.5 pulley which is plenty for me because I want my motor to last (Quote)For as many times as your car sees the light of day that should be no problem!J/K

Bradley G

[MI2QWK4U]

I've got a few questions about Trilogy pulleys. What PSI pulley are you running? If you have a pulley other than the 9.5 PSI, did you run with the 9.5 PSI pulley first, or did you install the kit with a higher PSI pulley from the get-go? If you swapped pulleys after install, was there a big difference? I'm thinking it's gonna be kinda hard to leave MVIII without something extra for the MM...:burnout:


I went right from stock to buck wild, in fact I may have had the small pully included with the kit.

[BillyGman]

I don't believe that Trilogy will sell anyone their supercharger kit with anything else other than the standard 9.5 PSI pulley, since that's what they told me at the time that I purchased their kit for my car. However, for what it's worth, it's also my understanding that the smallest pulley available for these superchargers (which is the 2.8" one that yields 13+ PSI of boost) is the only one that requires a custom tuning change from Lidio. The Trilogy kit comes with the 3.4" pulley (which is what I've stayed with), and if you want more boost than 9.5/10.PSI, then you can purchase the 3.2", 3.0" (which I don't believe would require a tuning change), and ofcourse there's the 2.8" pulley that requires a dyno tune.

[Tallboy]

I don't believe that Trilogy will sell anyone their supercharger kit with anything else other than the standard 9.5 PSI pulley, since that's what they told me at the time that I purchased their kit for my car. However, for what it's worth, it's also my understanding that the smallest pulley available for these superchargers (which is the 2.8" one that yields 13+ PSI of boost) is the only one that requires a custom tuning change from Lidio. The Trilogy kit comes with the 3.4" pulley (which is what I've stayed with), and if you want more boost than 9.5/10.PSI, then you can purchase the 3.2", 3.0" (which I don't believe would require a tuning change), and ofcourse there's the 2.8" pulley that requires a dyno tune.Didn't Dave [TechHeavy] have Lidio install his blower with a smaller pulley already on it?

I'm asking because I don't remember if he added it later or not...:cool:

[BillyGman]

Didn't Dave [TechHeavy] have Lidio install his blower with a smaller pulley already on it?

I'm asking because I don't remember if he added it later or not...:cool:Yes, as have others too. But it's Lidio who's making that transaction with the customer when they choose a smaller pulley, and NOT Trilogy. I'm not implying that there's neccessarily anything wrong with Lidio's practice at all. In fact, I have absolutely nothing negative to say about Lidio whatsoever. Lidio is the man when it comes to tuning the supercharged 4.6L engine as far as I'm concerned. (be it Trilogy equipped or not).

But when you order the Trilogy kit, and have it sent to your residence Like I have, it will only come with the standard 3.4" 9.5 PSI pulley. Unless Jerry Barnes has recently changed his policy on that, that's the only way that you can get it directly from Trilogy. And it comes with that pulley already installed on the supercharger. When Lidio receives customers' Trilogy kits, he removes that 3.4" standard Trilogy pulley, and installs another size IF the customer in question has chosen a smaller pulley. It doesn't come from Trilogy with the smaller ones.

[Tallboy]

Yes, as have others too. But it's Lidio who's making that transaction with the customer when they choose a smaller pulley, and NOT Trilogy. I'm not implying that there's neccessarily anything wrong with Lidio's practice at all. In fact, I have absolutely nothing negative to say about Lidio whatsoever. Lidio is the man when it comes to tuning the supercharged 4.6L engine as far as I'm concerned. (be it Trilogy equipped or not).

But when you order the Trilogy kit, and have it sent to your residence Like I have, it will only come with the standard 3.4" 9.5 PSI pulley. Unless Jerry Barnes has recently changed his policy on that, that's the only way that you can get it directly from Trilogy. And it comes with that pulley already installed on the supercharger. When Lidio receives customers' Trilogy kits, he removes that 3.4" standard Trilogy pulley, and installs another size IF the customer in question has chosen a smaller pulley. It doesn't come from Trilogy with the smaller ones.
"I see." [Said the blind man as he pissed into the wind]

"It all comes back to me now..."

Thanks, Billy! I get it now, the blower comes from Trilogy with the 9.5 pulley on it, but you can buy a smaller one and install it yourself if you like.

[MikesMerc]

"I see." [Said the blind man as he pissed into the wind]

"It all comes back to me now..."

Thanks, Billy! I get it now, the blower comes from Trilogy with the 9.5 pulley on it, but you can buy a smaller one and install it yourself if you like.

Billy summed it up pretty well for you!

However, I will note that Lidio will indeed want to special tune your car for any other pulley besides the stock 3.4. If you insist, he sometimes lets the 3.2 go on without to much resistence. But the 3.0 and 2.8....you need the tune.

The main reason is fuel delivery. At the boost (and respective horsepower levels) with the 3.0 and 2.8, a close eye needs to be placed on the air/fuel ratio. Not all fuel pumps are created equal and Lidio does not take chances with the variables.

I've stayed with the 3.0 pulley making 12.5 psi and that's plenty for me. At this point, moving to the 2.8 pulley would require a new Focus fuel pump.

Roughly speaking:
3.4: 9.5 PSI
3.2: 11 PSI
3.0 12.5 PSI
2.8 13.5 PSI

Of course exhaust upgrades and intake path mods effect boost levels as well.

[DEFYANT]

How much are these smaller pulleys?

[MikesMerc]

They are not cheap. About $125 I think. They are custom milled and very nice peices. I just wish they were cheaper.

BTW, if anyone wants, I have do a 3.2 pulley that I'd be willing to part with for a fair (and inexpensive) price. Definitely cheaper than a new pulley:)

[BillyGman]

Sounds like good info Mike. Thanks. ;)

[Cobra25]

In my kit Lidio told me I could go with a 3.2 pully which gives a added 1 lb of boost to 10.5 and adds 20 RWHP & 20 RWTQ. Cost about $160. Or you can go for a K & N cold air kit for around $250 or so and got the same 1 lb boost, either one or the other with out changing the tune. . But it you want both you must get a custom tune.

[BillyGman]

This isn't going to be a popular post that I'm writing, but I'm making the following statements out of concern for my fellow Marauder owners, so please keep that in mind......

I cannot help but to thing that if ANY intake modification really makes a true and not imagined difference, then it will require a specific engine tune for that modification. If your intake, or cold air kit is actually makig more power to the rear wheels that can be felt when you step on the gas pedal, then it's doing so by increasing the air flow. But IF the airflow has been significantly increased, then how is it that the air/fuel ratio wouldn't then be different?

Because if that's really the case, then you actually added more air without adding more fuel to the mix. Right? And that is known as a lean condition. How do you guys who have the aftermarket intake sytems who swear that your cars are faster as a result, who have also NOT had the engine re-tuned,know that the only reason why the car is faster with the new air intake kit, isn't simply because the engine is now running leaner? Remember, that leaner will often cause an increase of power, but will often be accomapnied by an increased probability of pinging, and that's real bad for engine longevity.

Have any of you intake upgrade customers who have NOT had the engine re-tuned ever brought your cars to get dyno tested, and had an air/fuel ratio test done AFTER the ait intake mod was installed? If not, then you had better do that!!!! Again, I write this out of concern for you guys. I'm not trying to start an argument, or knock anyone's car. And BTW, this issue is particularly most important to the supercharged Marauder owners, but certainly not limited to them alone.

I've just been informed by a vendor of this board that a certain company who offers a certain air intake upgrade fopr our Marauder stringy suggests an engine re-tune immediately after their product has been installed. And yet a friend of mine on this board who has installed that same mod on his Marauder has not had that done, and was fully unaware of that recommendation. BTW, that same person has also been experiencing some intermitten minor symptoms with his Marauder that can indicate a lean condition.

[MikesMerc]

The thing to remember is that the computer can adjust the Air/Fuel ratio to a small degree on the fly. That's what the mass air meter does. It "measures" air flow into the motor so the computer knows how much fuel to deliver via injector cycle duty (injector pulse length) and uses the O2 sensors to measure the results. When changes to the air flow path are made, the computer can compensate. This is why mass air meter cars are MUCH easier to mod than the speed density cars (which use static fuel delivery tables that are derived by the engineers who "assume" how much air flow is occuring based on engine rpm). This is what made the old 5.0L mustangs so much fun to mod. Intakes, heads, and ehaust could all be modded and the computer just compensated.

The reason custom tunes for basic air path upgrades is recommended is just inorder to maximize, or fine tune, the tune:) A custom tune can usually do better. But a custom tune becomes much more important under forced induction conditions. With a supercharger the computer is still measuring mass air volumes and adjusting air/fuel ratios on its own, but the custom tune "overrides" the preset air/fuel ratio targets the computer is trying to achieve. Stock air/fuel ratios under forced induction would be dangerous. For those NA folks with bolt ons, the computer will essentially hande the job on its own as the OEM target air/fuel ratios are good to go in NA applications. That's not to say a custom tune wouldn't be better....a custom tune that addresses ALL the variables is almost always better.

[SergntMac]

Because if that's really the case, then you actually added more air without adding more fuel to the mix. Right? And that is known as a lean condition. How do you guys who have the aftermarket intake sytems who swear that your cars are faster as a result, who have also NOT had the engine re-tuned,know that the only reason why the car is faster with the new air intake kit, isn't simply because the engine is now running leaner? Remember, that leaner will often cause an increase of power, but will often be accomapnied by an increased probability of pinging, and that's real bad for engine longevity.
Billy is right and I could not have said it better. A lean condition will improve your seat-of-the-pants dyno, but it could be expensive down the road. S/C Marauders are at greater risk than N/A, but that would just make things happen sooner.

The better advice is to arrange for a dyno tune, if not to further fine tune your MM for added performance, then as insurance against fatal damage. Remember, everything tuning is subject to the weather of the day, and while you MM may be running it's best today, the hot days of summer wait ahead. AFR is critical, and the EEC must be adjusted to deliver the flexibilty changing weather demands.

I would not assume that the OEM programming, or, your previous custom tune, will be sufficient. Best get it checked out? Watch for dyno-days in your area, taking a peek at the numbers isn't as expensive as a retune...IMHO.

[Jerry Barnes]

Mike and Billy are correct in their comments. We ONLY ship kits with our stock pulley that produces 9.5 lbs of boost. Any other pulleys can be purcahsed from Alternative Auto through Lidio. As everyone has stated, if you decrease the size of the pulley to achieve more boost we advise getting your tune adjusted. One size smaller is probably not an issue, but more then that you need to talk to Lidio.

There are so many variations of configuration in the field, that it would be impossible to have custom tunes in a box when we ship the kits. And our data says that 9.5 lbs of boost is aggressive, but reasonable. And that's what we want to achieve.

If you are making modifications to any part of your powertrain, I would recommned consulting with someone like Ldio to insure that you are not sub-optimizing your mods, or hurting your engine or affecting your driveability. The powertrains of today are very complex and your PCM is a vital part of the overall operation of the system. Take care when making modifications.

Thanks

Jerry

[BillyGman]

Wow!!! I thought for sure that I was going to get blasted for my comments, even though I was really hoping that I wouldn't be. So I'm glad to see that atleast so far, everyone is cool with the points I've brought up, because I'm really not trying to come across as a know-it-all, but I'm just trying to be of some help. ;)


I guess that it's mostly all been said about this in this thread already. but the only thing that I will add is something that I've learned from a couple different engine tuners. And that is the following......

Where ever and whoever you bring your car to for a Dyno TEST, or a Dyno TUNE,(whether it's in a parking lot at some meet, or at someone's place of business) and you pay the extra $25 or so to have an air/fuel ratio test performed during the Dyno run, ask ahead of time how the engine tuner in question performs the air/fuel ratio test. More specifically, ask if he uses a tailpipe probe, or if he bores a hole and welds a bung in one of the exhaust pipes BEFORE the catalytic converters. Because the latter is the proper way to measure air/fuel ratios since it's more accurate than using a tailpipe probe.

Tailpipe probes were fine for those old emission tests, but the air/fuel ratios are best measured BEFORE the cats and NOT after them. So I always steer clear of anyone who measures AFR's and tunes engines using a tailpipe sensor to measure AFR's, because it's universally known amongst MOST engine tuners that using a tailpipe probe to tune engines for the proper AFR is a BAD practice. And please don't let anyone tell you otherwise!!! It's your $$ and your engine that is at stake!!!

[MARAUDER S/C #5]

:hmmm: Does this mean I need to drive out to Michigan for a re-tune since I just installed the K&N kit? :dunno:

[BillyGman]

:hmmm: Does this mean I need to drive out to Michigan for a re-tune since I just installed the K&N kit? :dunno: I honestly don't know the answer to that, but I'm not so sure that anyone does for certain. And that's precisely why I've stayed away from altering the intake flow since I've supercharged my Marauder. I think that before you conclude that a 10-12 hour drive to Michigan is neccessary, you should simply visit a local dyno place, just to have a Dyno TEST (not a TUNE) and get the $25 air/fuel ratio test done along with it, and then you can fax the AFR results to Lidio to make sure he approves. that's exactly what I would do if I were in your shoes at this point Rick.

But if it were my car, I would also make sure of two things:

#1. That before I scheduele or agree to any Dyno Test, that I find out from the place in question whether they use a tailpipe probe to measure the AFR or a sensor installed BEFORE the cats. if they tell me that they use a tailpipe sensor, then I'd call another place!!!! If Lidio has custom tuned you car already, then he has alreadt bored a hole and welded a bung on your exhaust pipe fpr this, and has installed a threaded plug that simply needs to be removed.

#2. I would NOT allow them to talk me into a Dyno TUNE while I was there since I wouldn't trust anyone with my Trilogy equipped engine except Lidio. (Just get the Dyno TEST, not a Dyno TUNE).

[TechHeavy]

:hmmm: Does this mean I need to drive out to Michigan for a re-tune since I just installed the K&N kit? :dunno:
Yes! To answer your question!

I'm sorry to have been absent from this thread for so long... (da** these UPS hours!).

#5... a couple of points...

I just had the K&N air filter installed, (by Lidio and crew) last weekend and it only gave me about 7 extra ponies.... (not 20 ponies as expected). However, (and the biggest surprise) it gave me another pound of boost across the board! From low RPM to high RPM it was a steady 1lb increase of boost.

So, yes, IMO, you need another dyno tune if Trilogy equipped after a K&N filter install...

Chuck, I never had a spin with the standard pulley as I had Lidio install the 3.0 from the "get-go". So I can't make a comparison there.
However, I wanted you to know that with the 3.0 pulley, (and with the K&N) I'm now making 13lbs of boost, (at low rpms) and 13.5 at the high end.

PM me if you have specific questions.... :D :) Let 'em rip!

[Jerry Barnes]

You don't need to drive to Michigan to get a good tune. All I am suggesting is that you find someone qualified in your area and when you are about to make some changes, consult with a knowledgeable person who can adjust the tune to fit your modifications. We obviously have Lidio in the Michigan, which is great for us, but there are other qualified people that can help out. Just make sure you consult with a qualified technician. That's all we are suggesting. I have seen too many people hurt their cars, when it could have been avoided.

Jerry

[SergntMac]

Wow!!! I thought for sure that I was going to get blasted for my comments, even though I was really hoping that I wouldn't be. So I'm glad to see that atleast so far, everyone is cool with the points I've brought up, because I'm really not trying to come across as a know-it-all, but I'm just trying to be of some help. ;)
Billy, you hit it spot on and right is right.

Tailpipe probes were fine for those old emission tests, but the air/fuel ratios are best measured BEFORE the cats and NOT after them. So I always steer clear of anyone who measures AFR's and tunes engines using a tailpipe sensor to measure AFR's, because it's universally known amongst MOST engine tuners that using a tailpipe probe to tune engines for the proper AFR is a BAD practice. And please don't let anyone tell you otherwise!!! It's your $$ and your engine that is at stake!!!
You're right again, Billy, but I'd like to ask you to ease up here?

I agree that a tail pipe probe is not as accurate in measuring AFR as a bung with a wide-band O2 sensor before the cats will be. However, a tail pipe probe is better than nothing at all. Yes, it's not the best, but it's not as "bad" as no AFR check at all.

I have visited a dozen "dyno days" in the Midwest over the last two years, from Detroit to Rock Island, Cleveland to Atlanta. I have seen many, many automobile repair shops with in house dynometers trying to break into high performance dollars by selling us dyno testing, dyno tuning (and thanks for respecting the difference), and promises to handle all our "bolt on" needs. Most have done well, a few have been disappointing. Buyer beware.

Anytime money changes hands, it good for one of the hands. However, it's too early in this "race shop" growth to declare the bung/wideband sensor as an expected standard we can shop for. These repair shops do so much other non-high performance dyno work that a tail pipe probe is still a useful tool to them, and I must agree because it's better than nothing at all.

Within the context of this thread, O2 bung samples are better than a tail pipe probe, but not better than no test at all. Let's also agree not everyone reading this gets a choice, so, get what you can?

My advice to everyone here, is to find a dyno shop conveinent to you, and run some base line dynos with either type of AFR testing. Store your MM data there and as you mod, travel, tune and so on, come back to your home dyno and log your changes with a pull. Side by side comparasion will tell you what's new, what's changed and what you need to do next. You'll be able to see, and calculate the differences between a tail pipe sample, and the O2 wide band sensor.

Oh, and BTW...If y'all are serious about all this and have selected your final choice on exhaust systems, go get a O2 bung installed on your MM now? It is the standard looming in the near future, it's not that expensive, or, difficult to get installed, and it will pay for itself very soon. As long as you have made your final choice in exhaust systems, just do it. Once you have this in place, you have choices. Even if not used for dyno testing, there are more than a few "full time" AFR meters on the market today, adding the bung is not a waste of time.

[MARAUDER S/C #5]

[QUOTE=Jerry Barnes]You don't need to drive to Michigan to get a good tune. [QUOTE]

I would only feel comfortable having Lidio and his crew work on my car. Besides, I need to put some miles on it and the Trilogy Open House is coming up. :hmmm:

[SergntMac]

I would only feel comfortable having Lidio and his crew work on my car. Besides, I need to put some miles on it and the Trilogy Open House is coming up.
Then drive on. If this is what works for you, follow your heart. Get out your maps, and watch the octane OTR.

[MARAUDER S/C #5]

I just had the K&N air filter installed, (by Lidio and crew) last weekend and it only gave me about 7 extra ponies.... (not 20 ponies as expected). However, (and the biggest surprise) it gave me another pound of boost across the board! From low RPM to high RPM it was a steady 1lb increase of boost.Adding one pound of boost only adds 7 more hp? :confused:

[Lidio]

Adding one pound of boost only adds 7 more hp? :confused:

For some reason it didn’t pick up like a couple of other ones did with the K&N kit on Trilogy equipped MM's. Some people will think different about this, but a pound of boost for the most part with a safe tune is typically worth about 15-18 HP at the flywheel. So at the rear wheels its obviously gona be a percentage lower then the gains you'd get at the flywheel.

Thanks

[Lidio]

The supplied tune in the Trilogy kit is set up to be safe and some what conservative all over the country with 91-93 octane. So far since its gone on sale we’ve had no complaints about detonation or spark knock with the supplied 9.5psi of boost and the supplied tune.

If Trilogy customers can get 93 octane I do say that its OK to install either the 3.2” Pulley or the K&N filter kit separately but not together. Because they both add about 1psi of boost, and theirs enough room in the WOT fuel calibration and spark to not worry about it with 93 Octane. That’s as far as I support with out getting a custom and proper tune.

Personally if it were up to me and I was only gona change one…. It would be the pulley over the K&N for a couple of reasons.
First off the 3.2 Pulley change is cheaper and as long as the original supplied blower belt isn’t to stretched out, it can be reused.
Second… the pulley adds more power and boost instantly and across the board, were as the K&N filter kit doesn’t really shine through until a little higher in the revs.
The K&N kit also makes that Eaton wine a lot louder under load. Some guys like this and some don’t.
I personally like the noise the Trilogy adds when the stock air box is reused and that’s all. No louder then that. But I to run a open style K&N filter on the end of my MAF because I can run but I cant hide from a quick 15-20 RWHP gain at my level of power and boost.

The only draw back to a pulley change is your messing with your blower’s warranty. Although I’ve never……….. ever,,,,,,,,, seen a Eaton fail other then one I’m aware of that sucked in something other then air.

Thanks

[BillyGman]

One of the reasons that it's my personal choice to not use any local engine tuner who happens to have the SCT software to burn chips and set up handheld tuners is because of what I've seen out there with other peoples' cars. Another thing too, is that after I completed the installation of the Trilogy supercharger on my Marauder, I then brought it to a local dyno place owned and run by a local engine tuner(who BTW also happens to have all the SCT tuning software himself) for a dyno TEST just to confirm the rear wheel HP that the car was puting down, and after the first dyno run, the guy told me that my car is running way too lean, and that I'm in danger of blowing up my engine, and he wanted to Dyno TUNE my car to 'correct" the AFR that he claimed was way off.


Fortunately I had payed the guy for a air/fuel ratio test, and he knew enough about engine tuning to use a welded bung to take the AFR readings from the exhaust pipe BEFORE the cats, and I had the printed read-out of the AFR readings from that. (BTW, I've been told by a number of professionals that taking the AFR AFTER the cats is just plain innaccurate, and that your engine should never be tuned using a tailpipe sensor, so MAC and I will just have to agree to disagree on that one). So I then called Lidio to see if this local engine tuner of mine was correct, and when I told Lidio what the AFR range throughout the RPM band was of my engine, he informed me that it is just fine, and that what that guy had told me only would apply to my car IF the supercharger was NOT intercooled.

So because this guy was clearly informed by myself that my supercharger set-up includes an intercooler, it became clear to me that he didn't know what he was talking about. He told me that the AFR should NOT ever go over 11.0:1 for any supercharged engine, and that 10.5:1 is better, and I know that this just isn't true. Furthermore, I've raced my car on and off the track more times than I can count since then, and I've driven it very hard in all types of whether, and on a daily basis for 13,000 miles since that dyno TEST and AFR test was done, and my engine is just fine. So that's why I wouldn't allow that local guy to dyno TUNE my car despite the fact that he insisted on doing that. I only allowed him to dyno TEST it, and as far as I'm concerned, since Lidio is the one who helped to design the perfect engine tune for the Trilogy supercharger set-up during the developmental stages, he is the ONLY engine tuner that I would take my supercharged Trilogy equipped Marauder to for a Dyno TUNE.

So I'm not meaning to cause any arguments here, but I'm simply sharing with this group what my personal experience has been with Lidio as well as with local engine tuners. Take it for what it's worth. :)

[MARAUDER S/C #5]

If Trilogy customers can get 93 octane I do say that its OK to install either the 3.2” Pulley or the K&N filter kit separately but not together. Because they both add about 1psi of boost, and theirs enough room in the WOT fuel calibration and spark to not worry about it with 93 Octane. That’s as far as I support with out getting a custom and proper tune.Thank you very much Lidio, since I'm not changing the pulley and have access to plenty of 93 octane I WILL NOT NEED A RE-TUNE. :P
Btw, I love the sound it makes now. Between the K&N sucking, the exhaust rumbling and the s/c whine it really turns heads now! :up:

[Tallboy]

Man, what a great thread this turned out to be! I got all the info I wanted and learned few things, too. Many thanks to all who answered, you guys are the best-and the reason this is the best car site on the web! :up:

[DEFYANT]

Just FYI

At Lidios advise, after the Kooks were installed, I sent him my chip with an updated list of mods that included the JLT. With the JLT alone, I was ok, but with the exhaust mod, an updated tune was in order.

Thanks for the input into this topic. I found this while researching my next mod;) .

[wsmylie]

Great old thread. Interesting reading. Thanks everybody.