Nasty Wiggle at Highway Speed

[HenryIV]

Hi everyone. My wife and I have been enjoying our 04 MM since last fall. Over the winter I put a set of Blizzak WS-50 snow tires on the rear only, and have not put the summer tires back on it yet. It's otherwise bone stock. Here is a link to the tire:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Blizzak+WS-50&partnum=355R8BZWS50&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

QR speed rated it looks like.

We took a highway trip last week, and drove over some rutted asphalt highway at 70 mph. The tire ruts in the slow lane would seem to catch the car and move it right or left a bit. I would then make a natural small correction the other way, as you would in any car. This combo of inputs would cause a nasty side to side wiggle that would take 5-7 sec to dampen. The sensation was very unplesant, and felt rather unsafe. Anyone else here had this kind of sway problem? Is it the snow tires on the rear only? Is it an inherent weakness of the car? The MM seems so tightly sprung I was really supprised it would sway like that. Thanks for the input. And yes, the snow tires are comming off as soon as I can get to the tire store...

H4

Edit:

I checked the inflation for the tires and it seems ok. Not perfect, but not the cause of trouble I think. front 29 and 28. Rear 33 and 34.

[CRUZTAKER]

Over the winter I put a set of Blizzak WS-50 snow tires on the rear only.......
What tires are on the front? I ask as those (ws50) tires only come as big as 17".

My OEM tires frequently 'grab' uneven pavement.

[Mike Poore]

[QUOTE=HenryIV]Hi everyone. My wife and I have been enjoying our 04 MM since last fall. Over the winter I put a set of Blizzak WS-50 snow tires on the rear only, ...QUOTE]

It's the Blizzak's for sure, but just for grins, check to see if the switch in the trunk that pumps up the shocks was not turned off when the tires were mounted, and then not turned back on. :thinker:

[MERCMAN]

isn't there an idiot light that comes on in the event of not switching it back on???

[jgc61sr2002]

IMO you should use the same size winter tires on all four corners.

[HenryIV]

Thanks for the input so far. I did not know about the air ride off switch in the trunk. I just checked it, and it was on. I confirmed it is working by loading the oem tires into the car and turning on the electric power. Nice compressor sound=working air ride.
The WS-50 did come in an 18 last year, and that is what I have, on OEM rims. Front tires and rims are stock. I hope the tire change does the trick.

[HenryIV]

IMO you should use the same size winter tires on all four corners.

The Tirerack page even has a big warning about "MUST BE USED IN SETS OF 4" which I chose to ignore. I thought it was more of a traction differential issue, not a stability at speed issue. Maybe I was wrong. If the tire swap works, looks like I need too buy a set of blizzaks for the front next winter.

[blackf0rk]

The Tirerack page even has a big warning about "MUST BE USED IN SETS OF 4" which I chose to ignore
Having a rear set of tires that are different from the front set will give you no problems (unless under extreme conditions [snow, rain etc]). If your fronts are normal street tires, they're going to freely go where ever they want while the rears hold on - this will give you an unpleasent ride; this is of course in snowy or really slick rain conditions.

Really, this is just a selling point for the manufacturer and TireRack; to seel 4 instead of 2. Also, it's to curb the idiots buying 1 tire and putting it on with his three other tires that don't match - not eveyone has common sense ;)

Cars act really strange in the snow, especially RWD cars; and manufacturers of them have not perfected their product (cars) for all conditions. My guess is that the torque of the car was spinning the tires loose (just enough, but not enough to be unrecognizable) and therefore the tire sliding enough to give you that wiggle.

All you can do is replicate the problem without snow - and if you can't, then it's just a normal operation when driving in snow.

[HenryIV]

Thanks for the input blackf0rk, but Just to be clear, this happened on dry road. It was not tire slip, the car was rocking back and forth on its springs.

[cyclone03]

Thanks for the input blackf0rk, but Just to be clear, this happened on dry road. It was not tire slip, the car was rocking back and forth on its springs.

You mentioned tire ruts,if your not familure with driving a car with wide tires you may find the tires catching and trying to follow the ruts unnerving.

Have the tires changed then try to hit the same stretch of highway,my guess is it will do the same thing again.

[Bluerauder]

My OEM tires frequently 'grab' uneven pavement.
Yes, I have experienced that as well. Usually where the ashalt has been rutted by heavy trucks in hot weather. :rolleyes:

[David Morton]

That's funny. I've never had this problem.

I know! You need to move to Florida. :D

And no, the car doesn't have an idiot light for driving in the snow. :rolleyes:

[Mike Poore]

And no, the car doesn't have an idiot light for driving in the snow. :rolleyes:
David, I think mercman was talking about a warning light to remind us if we fail to turn the "shock pump" switch back on. They make a big fuss about turning it off when putting the car on a lift. I didn't know about the light, though, um, is there one?:)

[merc406]

Hi everyone. My wife and I have been enjoying our 04 MM since last fall. Over the winter I put a set of Blizzak WS-50 snow tires on the rear only, and have not put the summer tires back on it yet. It's otherwise bone stock. Here is a link to the tire:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Blizzak+WS-50&partnum=355R8BZWS50&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

QR speed rated it looks like.

We took a highway trip last week, and drove over some rutted asphalt highway at 70 mph. The tire ruts in the slow lane would seem to catch the car and move it right or left a bit. I would then make a natural small correction the other way, as you would in any car. This combo of inputs would cause a nasty side to side wiggle that would take 5-7 sec to dampen. The sensation was very unplesant, and felt rather unsafe. Anyone else here had this kind of sway problem? Is it the snow tires on the rear only? Is it an inherent weakness of the car? The MM seems so tightly sprung I was really supprised it would sway like that. Thanks for the input. And yes, the snow tires are comming off as soon as I can get to the tire store...

H4

Edit:

I checked the inflation for the tires and it seems ok. Not perfect, but not the cause of trouble I think. front 29 and 28. Rear 33 and 34.





I wouldn't worry about it, goin over the Mackinac bridge has the same effect.

[SergntMac]

The Marauder has customary gas shocks at all four corners. The front shocks are augmented with coil springs in a typical "coil over shock" arrangement which have been called "struts" too. The rear shocks are augmented by air adjustable springs, but they look more like "air bags" than anything else. My only point, is that something may have come loose at one of the corners, the "wiggle" you describe isn't normal. On to the checklist?

When the on-board air pump is turned off via the switch on the driver's side trunk area, you should see a warning light on the dash, above and to the left of the speedometer. It's yellow text, not a gauge or square light with an internationally recognized symbol.

"28-29" PSI in the front tires seems low, IMHO. Bump them up to 36 PSI each, and expect roughness from enhanced feedback. Lower PSI a pound at a time to reach your comfort level, but not below 32 PSI. This is quite a "nose heavy" car, and anything less that 32 PSI isn't going to deliver good results in tire wear, or, handling. Adhesion is the first victim of low PSI.

OEM/stock tire width provides a contact patch approximately 8 inches wide. That's much wider than most ruts beaten into an old road, and it will be problematic. This is natural, and it will require more corrective attention from the driver, however, it should not result in any "5-7 second wiggle" of the tail end (presuming I read your post correctly to say it's the tail end wiggling).

Balance your PSI front to rear. What ever you set in the front, duplicate in the rear. Once all four tires are properly inflated, measure your ground to wheel lip distance at the center of the wheel, while parked on any flat surface. Measure it again 1/2 hour later, and again 1/2 hour after that.

This will tell you if a shock/spring/air bag is broken, which will also explain a "loose" side to side sway. At first, you may find differences as much as .50" between the four corners, but if you find anymore than that, or, find changes from 1st, 2nd and 3rd measurements, have the car inspected for a broken shock, or, disfunctional air bag.

My point here is to rule out the many causes, and whittle this down to what's probable. If you can check this stuff out, you may save a trip to the dealership, or, at the least, be more informed about symptoms when you do visit. Nonetheless, what you describe to us isn't normal, please get it checked out?

Oh, and report back to us too? Please? I would love to hear more about why a Marauder wiggles it's tail end, when not intentionally flirting in traffic.

[427435]

Take the Blizzacks off and put the OEM's back on. Problem will go away. I ran Blizzacks on both the front and rear (on 16" wheels) this winter and the car was a little "squirrelly" on dry roads. Had the same thing with a front wheel drive car that I used Blizzacks on previously. If you read some of the comments/feedback on Blizzacks (and some other winter tires) on Tire Rack, you'll find the same kind of comments.

The tread on the Blizzacks is deeper and the rubber is softer---both make for the "squirrelly" feeling.

Only putting the Blizzacks on the back probably made it worse too.

[HenryIV]

. If you read some of the comments/feedback on Blizzacks (and some other winter tires) on Tire Rack, you'll find the same kind of comments.

The tread on the Blizzacks is deeper and the rubber is softer---both make for the "squirrelly" feeling.

Only putting the Blizzacks on the back probably made it worse too.
I found this quote on tire rack feedback: "Only downside is the wiggliness on dry pavement at high speeds but hey it is a winter tire. Definitly get some of these if you see a lot of snow"

Looks like we may have the answer.

[SergntMac]

I found this quote on tire rack feedback...Looks like we may have the answer.
Cool. Glad we could help.

[David Morton]

David, I think mercman was talking about a warning light to remind us if we fail to turn the "shock pump" switch back on. They make a big fuss about turning it off when putting the car on a lift. I didn't know about the light, though, um, is there one?:)Yes, there is a warning lamp for the air ride system being off.

I was teasing about the idiot light for driving in the snow. I don't really think you Yankees are idiots. :D

[Mike Poore]

Yes, there is a warning lamp for the air ride system being off.

I was teasing about the idiot light for driving in the snow. I don't really think you Yankees are idiots. :D
How about that, another warning light we never see. Would that they could have used a cruise control ON, light, instead.

As far as us being idiots, I'll plead guilty, I mean, who else but a bunch of dopes would take our MM's out of storage ...just in time for a foot of snow.;)

[Matt Johnson]

I've experienced this high speed 'wiggle' on dry, grooved freeway pavement at high speeds (70+) with oem tires at 34-35 psi. very unnerving and uncomfortable to deal with. never experienced it on any other car.

[Heavy351]

I have 4 same size artic alpins on steel rims and noted that they were quite "squirmy" on particular pavement patterns... I just got used to it. Put on the new KDW-2 on the front and stock oems on the rear 2 weeks ago and realized just how loose the snows really were. The car is SOOOO much more stable now..

It seems that maybe the wheelbase, HP, and weight of this car make it sensitive to tire choices in a very everyday noticable way. My Taurus drives the same no matter what you put on it.

[martyo]

In the words fo Larry the Cable Guy: "Wiggle Worm, wiggle worm!!"

[Shaft333]

How about that, another warning light we never see. Would that they could have used a cruise control ON, light, instead.
I thought I was going insane that I had just bought a car with the cruise control light burnt out.

It does seem silly that it's not existant... story for another thread... maybe.

[HenryIV]

I've experienced this high speed 'wiggle' on dry, grooved freeway pavement at high speeds (70+) with oem tires at 34-35 psi. very unnerving and uncomfortable to deal with. never experienced it on any other car.
This is just the news I did not want to hear from another MM owner. I will update again after the tire swap. The good/bad thing is the bad stretch of highway with the grooves is over an hour away from home, so It will likly not get tested there until I go to visit my in-laws again.

H4

[ckadiddle]

I too have noticed the tendency of the MM to steer itself according to the grooves, etc in the road. Have never felt it to this extent before, but have never owned a real performance car before. I attributed it to the wide tires, steering, and suspension differences. I formerly drove Crown Vics, was used to the floaty, cruise-ship feel steering. No snow here , thank heavens. It would kill me to put it away for the winter or rip my heart out to put snow tires on it.

[wchain]

IMO you should use the same size winter tires on all four corners.


Cant do that on an 04 unless you're turning off TC every time you start it.

[TechHeavy]

This is just the news I did not want to hear from another MM owner. I will update again after the tire swap. The good/bad thing is the bad stretch of highway with the grooves is over an hour away from home, so It will likly not get tested there until I go to visit my in-laws again.

H4Henry, as Clyclone said: You mentioned tire ruts,if your not familure with driving a car with wide tires you may find the tires catching and trying to follow the ruts unnerving.

Have the tires changed then try to hit the same stretch of highway,my guess is it will do the same thing again.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
__________________

I suspect this is just a badly rutted stretch of road, and would do the same thing with any tire. Heck, the same thing sometimes happens in certain areas in the semi-tractor I occasionally drive at work.... (but always the same spot... see). I suspect what influences the "rut-grab" is the wheel/axle spacing of the tires, not the tire itself. If your tires are lined up in the rut, they're going to grab occasionally.
Hope that helps. :)

[HenryIV]

I finally got the OEM rears re-mounted yesterday. I did a few tests to the car pre and post mount. I tried grabing the rear tire at 12 o'clock with my thumb on the sidewall and my fingers w***** over the first set of tread lugs and shook the car side to side be the tire. Rear snow tires shook back and forth much easyer then front OEMs. After remount the stock tire was stiffer and it was harder to shake the rear end in this manner. Once off the car I inspected the Blizzaks and found them to be very gummy soft rubber (as you would expect for full on snow tire.) The side walls were much softer / squishier then the OEM. I still don't have road tests to report, but the much harder stock rears hopefully will firm up the rear sway.

H4

[wchain]

I finally got the OEM rears re-mounted yesterday. I did a few tests to the car pre and post mount. I tried grabing the rear tire at 12 o'clock with my thumb on the sidewall and my fingers w***** over the first set of tread lugs and shook the car side to side be the tire. Rear snow tires shook back and forth much easyer then front OEMs. After remount the stock tire was stiffer and it was harder to shake the rear end in this manner. Once off the car I inspected the Blizzaks and found them to be very gummy soft rubber (as you would expect for full on snow tire.) The side walls were much softer / squishier then the OEM. I still don't have road tests to report, but the much harder stock rears hopefully will firm up the rear sway.

H4


I would assume that a softer gummier compound would be like that because of the temperature delta (colder weather makes the compound stiffer, so using a softer compound allowsyou more pliability at extreme temps)

Glad to hear the ride has improved some!
Wes

[devo59]

there called ridge runners,
i just got my alignment on my mm. new tires also. but its so bad here with those damn trucks with all of those wheels.

[Aren Jay]

I've had the tire grab and wiggle with BFG's. You have to slow down for it.

Wide tires and small gooves in the road and you slip between them.

[Bluerauder]

there called ridge runners,
i just got my alignment on my mm. new tires also. but its so bad here with those damn trucks with all of those wheels.
This was a 2+ year old thread ... Henry doesn't live here any more. :rolleyes: