supercharger wanna b

[Bradley G]

Has thier been a Dyno Graph showing all the S/c kits offered for the Marauder?

Not individually, but all on the same page, in different colors?
Also for real world performance;
Maybe at MVIII we could find some heads up comparisons, without any other mods.
Bradley G

[stevengerard]

I think this would be interesting to see as statistically you would definately see a trend, yet each car is different. Like mine for one has less torque then many, 385 peak, yet it is already about 300 lbs/tq before 3000 rpm and doesn't go below 350 while the hp is still increasing at 476. My point is that is a different torque curve then many centrifugals. And I bet there are variences with all of the cars no matter what blower.

[BillyGman]

yes, but in general, centrifugal set-ups all make more HP above 5,000 RPM's than roots superchargers do (assuming the same amount of boost in both) while the roots type make better power from 2,000-4,000 RPM's than the centrifugals do. That isn't to say that the centrifugals don't make power under 5,000 RPM's, and that also isn't to say that the roots type don't make power above 5,000 RPM's, but the strong points of each are definately in different places in the RPM scale.


Both will make your car faster, but in slightly different ways. That's just a fact of life. The only type of supercharger that supposedly has the best of both worlds as far as that goes is the twin-screw superchargers (although there isn't a twin-screw kit offered for Marauders and likely never will be given the small production numbers of these cars). But before anyone jumps all over my case, let me state that I'm very well aware that centrifugals do make power under 5,000 RPM's, so please don't anyone misunderstand what I've stated here. And by the same token, I know from my own personal experience with my car, that roots superchargers DO make power above 5,000 RPM's, because even with my 4.56 gears (which I had before I installed my supercharger) I DID notice a very obvious acceleration increase over 100 MPH.

[SergntMac]

Has thier been a Dyno Graph showing all the S/c kits offered for the Marauder? Not individually, but all on the same page, in different colors? Bradley G
Not that I've seen, and to my knowledge, the only possibility of creating such a chart, would be from Lidio's Dynojet records. He's tuned both Roots and centrifugals, maybe he could draft the chart you suggest from his database. Sadly, I doubt any of these cars are "bone stock with a blower" and I think that animal would be hard to hunt down in either camp.

However, what will this tell us, Bradley? Will these graphs show us a difference between Roots and centrifugal? Sure they would, absolutely. And this is not in dispute, never has been. Roots blowers make more torque below the 4V DOHC's 3500 RPM powerband than centrifugals, yes. We kown this as fact. Centrifugals make more power above the powerband than Roots, agreed again (I think).

I think the only question is, how much of a difference does this power difference make in the real world? By the time either reach 3500 RPM, you're very seriously fast already. I've said all along that there is a difference, but IMHO, just not enough to make one style of supercharging vastly superior over the other, in the dramatic manner often illustrated here. Both are fine examples of automotive technology, and will reproduce exacting high performance time after time. Pick your style based on how it fits your needs, and enjoy the ***** out of it.

If someone must find a difference, there is only one I can think of. I just recently rebuilt my MM engine with 9:1 compression, only to discover that my Vortech S-trim blower wasn't going to handle lower compression well. The engine sucked up everything it could blow out. Fortunately, I was able to send the blower back to Vortech for an upgrade to a T-trim, and the car is running better than ever today. My only comment here, is that I believe (and I could be wrong) that the Roots/Eaton blower employed by Trilogy, is maxed out size wise, and I don't know if there are options here. If a Trilogy owner wanted to lower compression for performance gains, he may run into problem in this area, and I don't know what could be done about it.

I'm not trying to start anything here, please correct me if I am wrong. But, I'm repeating 411 heard from Lidio, and this is the way I understand it.

[Shaft333]

Sarge... you seem cool. Want to adopt me as a new son?

[BillyGman]

I know that MAC isn't trying to start anything, and I am not either. I just want to point out that the only reason that anyone would want to LOWER their compression ratio for performance gains is if they were going with some really high boost pressures that wouldn't work and that would cause detonation ("pinging") problems with the factory stock compression ratio of the Marauder.


Compression ratio versus boost pressure level is a delicate balancing act with many factors involved which include but are not limited to, camshaft specs (particularly duration) cylinder head design, and especially air/fuel ratio, and even more so ignition timing advance. Otherwise, decreasing the compression ratio will actually cause a LOSS of power, and NOT a gain. The only reason to deliberately lower it is if you're planning on increasing the boost pressure very significantly. And in that case, the lowered compression ratio is a trade-off for the much higher boost levels that you're aiming at. But again, there are many factors that need to get plugged into that equation. So many that it's actually a science that really should be left to very experienced entine tuners IMO. I don't believe it's merely a matter of the choice of supercharger alone.

To give you an example to illustrate my point, just look at the 03/04 Cobras. They have the same basic Eaton M112 roots supercharger and they cme from the factory with considerably less of a comression ratio than our Marauder have, and they run fine with plenty of power. The only obvious difference between the superchargers on those cars and our Trilogy superchargers on our cars is the intake piece sweeping to the opposite side, and the snout length being different than ours. but it's the same basic M112 Eaton model which has the same 112 cubic inches(1.7L) of displacement. Just keep in mind that the Cobra engines might very well have different camshaft profiles, as well as differnt ignition timing requirements as our Trilogized Marauders do.

[Bradley G]

Thanks guys for all your info !

I always learn something when I read and ask.
I thank you Gentlemen for your generosity.
Here's to breaking into the elusive 12's :beer:
Bradley G

[SergntMac]

Billy is correct in his estimation of my rationale for change. I wanted lower compression in order to increase my boost, and also to deal with the sad quality of gasoline in the Chicago area.

The stock Marauder engine has 10.1:1 compression, created by a robust piston with a taller deck and a 3cc dish. The Cobra piston is identical, hyperteutonic aluminum, except for it's shaved "flat top" so clearly visible to the eye, you need not measure it to know it (I had pics of them side by side in my gallery, but they are not available to me right now).

This is a professional build, Randy Crowley from PER says it's good for 30# of boost, 700 RWHP, and like Billy said, it's not a project any shade tree wrench should take on. I watched every step of the build, and learned tricks from pros I never imagined. Now (if necessary), I can pump 87 octane with no worries, just have to be reasonable with the throttle.

This is perfect for OTR trips where I'm burning gas by the tankful, without much opportunity for really hard WOT blasts. BTW, I'm getting 21-22 MPG so far, but I haven't taken any OTR trips yet, where I can watch a full tank drain. I expect better MPG as summer (and more road trips) approach, the trip to Barry's back yard Marauder blow-out is next on my schedule.

Billy's right again to say that lower compression alone will result in a loss of performance, if I didn't have a blower I could upgrade, the car would remain the slug it was after this build, blowing out a maximum of 11 pounds of boost until the T-Trim was installed. Without changing my 3.12 pulley, or 42# injectors, just adding the Vortech T-Trim upgrade (and a great SCT tune), I'm at 15 pounds of boost. Moreover, there's a lot of headroom for more improvement, i.e. 50, or, 60# injectors, with appropriate pulley, and so on.

My stock MM engine was maxed out at 455 RWHP/399 RWTQ, with detonation snapping at my heels, and no success at breaking into 400+ RWTQ. I never expected to max out the S-Trim blower specs in this build, which left me hanging at 411 RWHP/385 RWTQ. However, I was able to recover from this loss of performance with an upgrade to T-trim specs.

No slam here, K? But it's a fact that the Eaton 112 is the largest positive displacement blower available from Eaton at the present time. Many Cobra owners are upgrading from the 112 to another blower (I forget if it's a Whipple, some kind of business deal on name) and picking up 80 to 100 RWHP from this swap (engineered in part by Lidio I'd like to add). However, Cobras have a modified production hood and clearance for the taller replacement blower is adequate. I don't think it would squeeze under a Marauder hood, and who really wants to disturb that sweeping view from behind the wheel? I know we dream of extravagant hood scoops, but really now, eh? If a hood scoop, or "power bulge" rally made the Marauder any better looking than it is right now stock, we would have "hood scoop wars" here too, right?

Looking at this topic from another equally important perspective, 500 RWHP is really a common-sense/real world limit for a "daily driver" that weighs 4400 pounds. What you move forward quickly, has to be stopped quickly, and in equal proportion to how quick you accomplish that. Any more power is just crazy to manage, IMHO, simply because it's equally that much more difficult to stop. If y'all havent noticed, road-worthy main streets, and highways you would want to drive hard on, are few and far between. We need places where we can open it up and enjoy the drive, and be able to wrangle it in.

I like Michigan roads, Indiana roads are cool too. Wisconsin Interstates are okay, but Chicago, Detroit, and Indianopolis streets suck. Bumpy, lumpy, can get a stretch on anywhere in the citys mentioned. I'm at 478 RWHP/434 RWTQ today, and this car is one run-a-way bus in city traffic, and the pavement it has to digest.

IMHO, supercharging the Marauder heals all disappointments, which style of supercharging seems moot. Roots, or, centrifugal, both will get you the power you seek. Once you have it, get a handle on it, manage it. Once you get supercharged, you'll know exactly what I mean. Anyone here who wants a lesson, give me a call?

[BlackHole]

Theres really 3 Positive displacement blowers out there for the 4.6L other than Eaton.

Whipple/Kenny Bell/and Manguson twin screw they'er currently making the 2.3L twin screw for the Ford GT

2 other choices are the Apten and Steigmier port and polish Eatons and KB blowers add about 40 HP and around 35 Ft Lbs just by doing that.

The only reason I'm leaning toward the Trilogy kit is because I own another Eaton equiped vehicle and know most of the tricks in getting the most performance engine and vehicle wise out of that set up.

[SergntMac]

Good for you. Lean any direction you wish, just get supercharged. It makes up for the differences we notice in bone stock Marauders.

[MI2QWK4U]

Good for you. Lean any direction you wish, just get supercharged. It makes up for the differences we notice in bone stock Marauders.



Amen Brother!

[Rider90]

Brad...


What are you getting at with this thread? :P

If you are getting a S/C i'm coming over and that should have been expected :bows:

[BillyGman]

Theres really 3 Positive displacement blowers out there for the 4.6L other than Eaton.

Whipple/Kenny Bell/and Manguson twin screw they'er currently making the 2.3L twin screw for the Ford GT

.Just a minor side note here:
Many people do not realize that the TWIN-SCREW LYSHOLM type supercharger that the 2005 Ford GT supercar is equipped with is in FACT made and supplied by EATON and NOT by Kenne Belle, nor by Whipple. Whipple and Eaton have a legally binding contract with each other since 2001 that states that Eaton has all the OE Twin-screw Lysholm sales, while Whipple owns the Lysholm Twin-screw aftermarket sales. That's a fact. So while Eaton is mostly known for their great roots superchargers, they also do make the Lysholm type Twin-screw supercharger. Here's the link to the Whipple webpage that lists that contract that they have with Eaton for Lysholm twin-screw production

http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/news.asp?articleID=50



BTW, keep in mind that there are Marauder owners on this board who have the Trilogy set-up who are pushing 460 RWHP with atleast 430 RWTQ with the good ole Eaton M112 (1.7L) supercharger suppled in the Trilogy kit. And that's with 13.5 PSI of boost and the stock 10:1 compression ratio. "JET" is one of them, and I raced him at the track in NewJersey last year twice as well as drove his car also. ;)

[Bradley G]

Hey all!,
Thanks for your replies.
I have been self employed for almost a year now, doing home remodeling.
I am going back into Selling Fords.:P
The Dealership(Crystal Lake IL.) ,is where I got started and worked at 12 years till 2002(after9/11).
If things work as planned;This year due to budget constraints,I chose to go with a NOS set up Drag radials and UD pullies.I hope to break into the elusive 12 sec range.As Far As "what I'm getting at"
My prefrence thus far, is Trilogy,not just for the product,But the whole package.When I met Jerry Barnes last year,by his kindness and generosity,he took me to his company gave me the Grand-daddy of tours.Explained in detail,philosophies, the direction of his company ,Literally way more than I ever expected.
Also gave me the Ride of a lifetime! in #2 :censor: LOL.
He was empowered by FMC to develop the produce the product.
For my tastes,( Can't say Need) it is the best fit I have seen thus far.
I have not driven any supercharged car ,of any make.I have not ridden in any of the other centrifical type superchargers.
Before making a final decision,(yeah I know I'm slow)I would like to compare all the choices first hand.
Just since last season, I have discovered through MM.net(You guys),Other options, that were not around then.
I am not braizen enough to come straight out and ask for a members keys,to check out thier set-up.It may not be possible to have that option(s)
I will continue to watch, read and compare,all the mods that are scrutinized here not exclusively superchargers.(just especially s/c's)
So I am not going to get into who's is better, cause I don't have first hand experience to make a claim.Just wanted to share what I have been thinking.
And of course When the time comes,Jason ,you know you are more than welcome,Just be sure to wear your "Work Clothes" and bring that Fancy new camera you got! :beer:
Bradley G


Brad...


What are you getting at with this thread? :P

If you are getting a S/C i'm coming over and that should have been expected :bows:

[BlackHole]

Just a minor side note here:
Many people do not realize that the TWIN-SCREW LYSHOLM type supercharger that the 2005 Ford GT supercar is equipped with is in FACT made and supplied by EATON and NOT by Kenne Belle, nor by Whipple. Whipple and Eaton have a legally binding contract with each other since 2001 that states that Eaton has all the OE Twin-screw Lysholm sales, while Whipple owns the Lysholm Twin-screw aftermarket sales. That's a fact. So while Eaton is mostly known for their great roots superchargers, they also do make the Lysholm type Twin-screw supercharger. Here's the link to the Whipple webpage that lists that contract that they have with Eaton for Lysholm twin-screw production

http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/news.asp?articleID=50





BTW, keep in mind that there are Marauder owners on this board who have the Trilogy set-up who are pushing 460 RWHP with atleast 430 RWTQ with the good ole Eaton M112 (1.7L) supercharger suppled in the Trilogy kit. And that's with 13.5 PSI of boost and the stock 10:1 compression ratio. "JET" is one of them, and I raced him at the track in NewJersey last year twice as well as drove his car also. ;)
Thanks as I knowed it wasn't any of the ones I listed for the 2.3 twin screw. So its Lysholm. I have a GT artical laying around but was to lazy to look for it. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

['03BlkMM]

Most of the Cobra/Lightning owners that I've seen are swapping out the Eaton M112 for the Kenne Bell twin screw. I believe Kenne Bell actually has a kit for them to do the swap. Another route to get more airflow out of the Eaton M112 is to send it to Magnum Powers to have them work their magic on it. I was looking at sending my SVO SC (Eaton M112) from my 97 GT off to them to have it ported for better flow and cooler discharge temps. They were quoting a fairly significant reduction in discharge temps with their porting. Here is a link to their Lightning products page.
http://www.magnumpowers.com/light_trble.html

[BillyGman]

Lidio had his M112 supercharger proted by Apten, and he stated that it didn't really do much of anything for a performance increase like he had hoped that it would. He also stated that he confirmed that with before and after dyno graphs.