Alignment and Tire Wear

[Tom Clary]

As I am coming to find out, alignment and uneven tire wear is a common thing with the Marauder. I have read a number of the older threads but would like to know what the current experiences are. Plus any advice for dealing with Mercury/FMC on this issues.

I have a 2003 MM purchased new in November of that model year and is still stock. Here has been my experience. I tried getting it aligned at a Firestone dealer which with previous cars I had decent luck with a lifetime alignment. No joy and some scratchs on the rims before they said they couldn't do it. So I put off the alignment until I noticed wear on the inside edges of the front tires. I tried a Tire Kingdom and after messing around with it, they said they could not align it. Or without doing a "special alignment" which would involve deflating the tire and then partially re-inflating. Something about a safety bead and it would be $120 to do it. They claimed no other tire place could do it that they knew of. The tires were worn out on the edges with lots of life left in the center to outer edge.

So I call the L/M dealer I bought the car from. They could align it and the tire price was better than the tire dealer. At 38K (which from my reading is better than most people got), I replaced the front tires and had it aligned. The only misalignment was that the toe-in was slightly out. 12K later I notice the inner edges are wearing again. I take it in, only thing the service writer says is to align it again. Results were the opposite tire toe-in was a bit out. I questioned him why did both tires have wear when only one side was out. He made some excuse.

I've done some reasearch in general and on here so it really looks like a camber issue. I have a few questions:
1) Where other than Ford can you get a stock Marauder aligned?
2) How to correct this problem? At $75 an alignment, just replacing the tires when they wear out might be cheaper.
3) Any magic words to get the service department to acknowledge this problem and point them in the right direction to get it fixed?
4) Anyone try pushing this up the regional or district chain to get some support?
5) As much as I dislike many aspects of the legal system, this really seems to have the makings of a class action lawsuit. I would think Ford would be sensitive about tire issues...

Other than this, I really like my Marauder.

Thanks for any help,
Tom

[jstevens]

Tom,

Do a search and you will find "correct" specifications. The factory specifications are lets just say for ****.

Find a high performance house that does alignments the old fashioned way.
I took mine to one with some spec's I got off here.

Car drives beautifully.
Good luck with the dealer. Mine said agressive driving was causing it, of course they didn't know anything.

[carfixer]

Tom, check out this (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=211998&postcount=11) post and compare it to the printout from the alignment printout they gave you. If they didn't adjust your camber, it has too much negative.

[wsmylie]

Tom... during one of my trips up to the Chicago area (Aug-Sept, 04 I think) I noticed some premature wear starting on the inside edge area of the front tires on my 04 MM (bout 6,000 miles at that time). Contacted Hawk L/M in Oaklawn, IL and after they took a look at it they told me they didn't have the proper adapter equipment on their front end machine to do the job (at least they were honest). They sent me to a related-ownership Ford dealer service dept a few miles away after calling them to make sure they could handle the job. After I got there they advised me they could handle the alignment, even after I told them that special adapters would be required for their Hunter equipment (thanks to a Carfixer post I was even able to give them the Hunter equipment part#... this seemed to irritate them though). They told me "no problem", and proceeded to put my car on the rack. Bottom line after more than an hour with the car sitting up there was that the front end guy, to his credit, couldn't promise that he would not scratch up my wheels, and no... they didn't realy have the proper adapters to do the job after all. While the "valet" (a teenage kid) was removing my car from the rack he managed to bump it into the wall edge surrounding the overhead door. Fortunately I saw him do it and, although he denied he'd hit anything, there was a paint transfer from the building on the small crease. I was real, real unhappy. The dealership, who will remain unnamed, made good on the damage claim and finally did the alignment by placing wheels from a new Crown Vic LX Sport they had in stock on my car and aligning it that way. Not the best solution in the world.... but what could I say. Just as an aside.... when they first realized that they didn't have the proper adapters for our MM wheels, the Serv Ass't Mgr accused me of having non-factory/non-Ford, aftermarket wheels on my car and thus any alignment warranty claim was void anyway!?! Explained to him that they were in-fact Alcoa wheels made for FoMoCo specifically for the Marauder, were installed on the car when it was assembled and carried FoMoCo part numbers. On the way into the shop I had noticed that there was a black 03 MM on their used car lot... so I walked him over to it and pointed out that it's wheels were identical to mine. Also pointed out that the 03 on the lot bore all the deep gouges on the outside wheel edges from someone using improper alignment equipment. Soooo...does this qualify as a rant??? Tom, you're probably right, the dealership alignment issue with our cars still seems to be a problem. BILL

[DEFYANT]

Tom, check out this (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=211998&postcount=11) post and compare it to the printout from the alignment printout they gave you. If they didn't adjust your camber, it has too much negative.
It seems Ford intentioanly set the Camber out to make the car handle "better" at the expense of the front tires.

This sound right?

[rumble]

It seems Ford intentioanly set the Camber out to make the car handle "better" at the expense of the front tires.

This sound right?

I have heard this before but I don't know if it's true. I just had mine
aligned today and I told the service writer that I want as little as
possible negative camber. When he called me back he said that
the camber was at the max specs for neg. and they moved it to the
other side of the range. I have 13K on mine and the (naturally)
inside edge was showing wear. I plan to dismount the tires now
and swap the inside with the outside.

We shall see.....................

[DEFYANT]

I have heard this before but I don't know if it's true. I just had mine
aligned today and I told the service writer that I want as little as
possible negative camber. When he called me back he said that
the camber was at the max specs for neg. and they moved it to the
other side of the range. I have 13K on mine and the (naturally)
inside edge was showing wear. I plan to dismount the tires now
and swap the inside with the outside.

We shall see.....................
You mean rotate the tires from side to side? Can we do that? (I know the fronts and backs are NOT interchangable)

[Pantherman]

It seems Ford intentioanly set the Camber out to make the car handle "better" at the expense of the front tires.

This sound right?

You are correct! These cars, even with soft stock suspension, have amazing cornering grip. If your personal priority is improved wear and you don't mind a little more understeer plus some loss of lateral G capability, you can always dial out a bit of negative camber. It's worth noting that Ford uses generous alignment tolerances--just like everyone else in the industry. You can actually take out all the negative camber and still be within spec! You can also go from toe out to slight toe in and still be within spec. This will make steering slightly more nervous at high speed but will also reduce inside edge wear. The flip side to all this is that your car can be within spec and have a LOT of negative camber and toe out. Time is money. If you don't ask for your alignment to be skewed in a particular direction, it won't be. If you are really interested, it's actually very easy to check camber and toe with just a level, a tape measure, and a cheap scientific calculator.

[metroplex]

http://www.redpulsar.us/~coldfusion/wheelalignment.html

That applies to pre-03 front suspensions but the theory is the same.

I did the front end alignment on my 00 Vic the old fashioned way and it tracks straight when you take off from a light. The roads are for schitt here in SE MI so you will feel wandering when its really 15 different road grade angles on the same lane. LOL

[SergntMac]

First, let me say that I think it's a shame y'all have gone through so much BS over this. No one should have to endure so much crap just to get a front end alignment. That said, here's some notes to consider next time around.

1) The Hunter adapter is what you need to get an alignment without damaging the MM wheel, but who's going to invest in that with just 11,000 MMs on the road across America? If I were a tire shop, can't say I would. However, there is a correct back up plan, and it was mentioned in the first post.

2) Let the air out of the tire and fix the hangars to the wheel bead, and re-inflate. No damage will occur, and it can be done on the car in about five minutes. I have customized MM wheels on my Marauder, and I'm not about to take any chances with them, but charging extra for this proceedure is just more BS, because it's common practice on other vehicles with likewise concerns.

3) When getting an alignment on the MM's frame, get a 4 wheel alignment. It's not an absolute must, but the results are dramatic. Again, this is not an uncommon service, good frame shops will do it, no problem.

4) I'm not sure alignment specs for older Panther frames are correct here, the '03 Panther frame is much different than previous years. Sorry I don't have my numbers at hand, but I know RF OverLord has the correct alignment specs, maybe he can post them? I wouldn't use any other specs due to the differences in frames, shock mounts, rack and pinion, and so on.

5) While you're at this, get all four wheels/tires road force balanced. Again, the improvement is dramatic, you'll love the feel of the MM on the highway, even with no mods at all.

Finding a decent repair shop is YOUR job. Don't be reserved in talking with the shop manager, and looking at his equipment before you sign up. If someone doesn't want to answer your questions, move on. Moreover, just because it's a FMC/LM dealership doesn't mean they know what they are doing. Many shops around here own all the toys, but no one on staff knows squat about using them, and the job gets farmed out anyway.

IMHO, you're better off shopping around and finding a frame speciality shop. It may take some time, but once you do, a lot of the crap posted in this thread will go away. For any of y'all in my area, I have a frame specialist on tap at WilRae, 91st and Harlem. Contact me, I'll hook you up. Discount Tire is also very good, they seem to be the "Mc Donald's" of tire shops these days. I've used a number of them around Chicagoland, and the service is very dependable. Check them out, but don't let your guard down?


PS. My last 4 wheel alignment from WilRae was 49.95, and my last road force balance from Discount Tires was 15 bucks per tire, both plus tax.

[MENINBLK]

I plan to dismount the tires now and swap the inside with the outside.


You can't do that.
The KDWS are marked INSIDE AND OUTSIDE for a reason...

The inside wear is an illusion.
There is a lot of rubber on the inside sholder.
There is more there than on the outside shoulder.
I'v got 32,000+ miles on mine and across the wear marks I have measured,
+.3, +.4, +.4, +.3...
This is riding on 38psi.

Yes my inside looks worn, but not the point that I am ready to worry about it.
I'll probably get new tires for the front by the end of the summer anyway...

Someone needs to take a worn tire and cut a cross section of it
so we can see just how much rubber really is on the inside edge...

[Tom Clary]

Thanks for all your comments.

Here are the specification it was just aligned at:

Left Right Spec
Camber -0.9 -1.1 -1.5 to 0.1
Caster 5.9 5.9 4.8 to 6.3
Toe -0.05 -0.8 -0.19 to 0.07
SAI 10.7 10.9

Since I am to this point into Mercury for 2 alignments at $75 a piece, I will try following up with the service manager to see what kind of satisfaction I get. In both cases, the toe was slightly out of spec so I wonder if he will claim that was the cause. The service minion blew me off when I questioned the wear on both tires. Now I have become more educated thanks to you guys and the web so I can better argue my case.

Has anyone complained to Ford/Mercury corporate on this? My dad has had good luck getting prompt local service when doing this with Ford trucks.

I really would think Ford would be really sensitive to this issue considering the Explorer/Firestone rollover thing.

[rumble]

You can't do that.
The KDWS are marked INSIDE AND OUTSIDE for a reason...

The inside wear is an illusion.
There is a lot of rubber on the inside sholder.
There is more there than on the outside shoulder.
I'v got 32,000+ miles on mine and across the wear marks I have measured,
+.3, +.4, +.4, +.3...
This is riding on 38psi.

Yes my inside looks worn, but not the point that I am ready to worry about it.
I'll probably get new tires for the front by the end of the summer anyway...

Someone needs to take a worn tire and cut a cross section of it
so we can see just how much rubber really is on the inside edge...

Hey man you just saved me a real aggravation. I probably would
have found this out AFTER I dismounted the tires. Thanks for the
heads up. I had no idea they were "innies and outties"
Why in world would a tire manufacture want to specify which side
of the tire faces out?

As Buford T. Justice said "what in de Hell is de world coming to"?

[Pantherman]

Why in world would a tire manufacture want to specify which side
of the tire faces out?


It's a common practice with performance tires and falls into the same category as, "Why in the world would anyone put a higher numerical ratio axle in a car?" That higher axle ratio means worse fuel economy, more noise, and more wear on the engine and transmission. The driving reason for both is improved performance. Life is full of compromises.

[Warpath]

...Why in world would a tire manufacture want to specify which side
of the tire faces out?

Because the tread design is directional and asymetrical. The tread is designed to roll in only one direction (reverse doesn't count since its low speed). It may be designed to evacuate water or snow better. Its asymetrical because the outboard side of the tire needs to be different from the inboard side. For example, the outboard tread was made stiff and strong to provide good cornering. The inboard side was softened to make up for the hard outboard side and provide a better ride.

[rumble]

Why in world would a tire manufacture want to specify which side
of the tire faces out?


It's a common practice with performance tires and falls into the same category as, "Why in the world would anyone put a higher numerical ratio axle in a car?" That higher axle ratio means worse fuel economy, more noise, and more wear on the engine and transmission. The driving reason for both is improved performance. Life is full of compromises.

OK, Every time I think I know everything someone comes along and proves me wrong.
I checked with a national tire rep and he told me the reason tires are sometimes marked
this way is 1) the sipes to channel water away from the tires may be slightly different on the
outside of the tire and 2) Some times the tire manufacturer uses different compounds in the
tread at the outside. He also said that for the ordinary Joe Driver it probably wouldn't make
any difference that one would notice. Marauder owners ain't ordinary.

So now I know. Thanks again gentlemen, this is just another reason this forum is so great.

[mtnh]

Joe,

These OE tires are not directional, they can be mounted in either rotational direction, but the inside must always stay inboard. So, you could take right side tires and swap them with left side tires without peril. There is no directional arrow marked on the tire.

And, last year, the chief reason for the inside tire tread accelerated wear-out was said to be mainly due to the toe-out of the factory alignment specs, but it now sounds like the negative camber is just as much the reason for the increased wear. I'm just wondering what is really the case now.

As far as the base post's tire wear, it appears that they set your alignment to factory specs, so your tire wear will continue until you can get the settings reset to more of what Claude is recommending.

Mike

[Tom Clary]

My guess is that the Camber came up within the factory spec range so it was not touched. I've been tied up with other things this week but I am hoping I can talk the service manager into re-aligning it with Carfixer's recommended settings. Which incidentally are still within the factory spec's. After this (good or bad), I think I will try to find a dedicated tire place that deals with high end tires to deal with future alignments.

[TAF]

My guess is that the Camber came up within the factory spec range so it was not touched.
My guess is they didn't know how to change the camber on your car...

Watch your tire wear...and lets hope they got you adjusted where you need to be...

[rumble]

My guess is that the Camber came up within the factory spec range so it was not touched. I've been tied up with other things this week but I am hoping I can talk the service manager into re-aligning it with Carfixer's recommended settings. Which incidentally are still within the factory spec's. After this (good or bad), I think I will try to find a dedicated tire place that deals with high end tires to deal with future alignments.

FYI, my camber was -.7 (both wheels) and is now at "0". If I read Carfixers
previous post correctly this is about what he has found and
about where he resets it. Also mine was done at J/E Lincoln
Mercury here in Dallas. Not a mark on my wheels. Did I tell you
I like these guys?

[metroplex]

Negative camber is better for cornering and handling and luckily on our Panthers, we need negative camber for even tire wear at least on the 79-02 Panthers.

I checked my tire wear at 0* camber and it was on the outer edge of the tread of the front tires! I adjusted camber until it was negative and no longer rode on the edge of the tread. I used the chalk method, hehe.

I set my Vic for zero toe erring slightly on toe-in. Caster has no direct effect on tire wear.

[metroplex]

Check out these diagrams I made. We used to take our cars in for alignment at shops but what's the point. They usually check toe and that's it.

[Warpath]

Joe,

These OE tires are not directional, they can be mounted in either rotational direction, but the inside must always stay inboard. So, you could take right side tires and swap them with left side tires without peril. There is no directional arrow marked on the tire.

Ah, OK. The tires I bought for my Cobra (BFG KDs) are directional and assymetric. I bought them staggered. So, I can't rotate them.


And, last year, the chief reason for the inside tire tread accelerated wear-out was said to be mainly due to the toe-out of the factory alignment specs, but it now sounds like the negative camber is just as much the reason for the increased wear. I'm just wondering what is really the case now.

As far as the base post's tire wear, it appears that they set your alignment to factory specs, so your tire wear will continue until you can get the settings reset to more of what Claude is recommending.

Mike

Excessive toe out can wear the inside of the tires in a saw tooth pattern. If you run your hands along the circumference of the tire, it will feel bumpy. Excessive camber tends to wear tires smoothly.

As Pantherman explained, alignment specs (and suspension geometry and type) are compromises between ride, handling, and tire wear. Pick your priorities and set alignment accordingly.

[Mad4Macs]

You can't do that.
The KDWS are marked INSIDE AND OUTSIDE for a reason...

The inside wear is an illusion.

An illusion? I was showing cords at 19,000 miles! Both fronts, both insides, little white cords running all the way around where the rubber no longer existed.
I must need new glasses :D

[SergntMac]

The inside wear is an illusion.
There is a lot of rubber on the inside shoulder.
There is more there than on the outside shoulder.

Someone needs to take a worn tire and cut a cross section of it
so we can see just how much rubber really is on the inside edge...
I see your point, but I disagree with it's relevance here.

Whether there is more rubber on this inside shoulder, or, not, the wear and tear to the external surface of this shoulder is what matters here.

You suggest that a cross-sectional cut would be revealing, and I agree that cut-a-ways are always informative. However, whether this area of the tire is one inch thick in rubber, or, four inches thick, how the surface of this shoulder (that which contacts the pavement) wears, is our chief concern.

If (and when) it wears unevenly (mostly due to out of balance first, alignment next), that wear creates a pattern known as "cupping." Cupping can be felt with the hand as an uneven surface, a "roller-coaster" like up and down feel, hills and valleys around the inside contact edge of the tire. You can demonstrate cupping by taking the tire off the car, rolling it through water, and then over clean white paper. Then you can measure the impression, and detect cupping. At this point, you may be able to save the tire. Maybe. However, when you can see cupping with your eyes without touching the tire, you will not correct it. The tire is done, over, used up, shot.

I don't care what the tire monkey of your choice promises. You can flip the tire inside out, or, stick it out back, inside out, or, not, it won't matter. The tire will generate vibration no matter what you do to quash it, and if you continue to drive on it, you will sense, and suffer, additional symptoms and discomforts.

Cupping has the effect of chopping dozens of small "V" like sections from the surface of the tire. It's rubber gone...Forever...And rubber gone is rubber you cannot replace, cannot balance, and cannot align. Moreover, cupping causes vibration, and this vibration will telegraph throughout the car and surface in a variety of means, and areas.

Blurred rear-view mirrors, inside and out, vibration in the seat-of-your pants, heels and toes through the floor pan, bulkhead, firewall and so on. Through your rack and pinion steering, and into your hands, with a "shimmy" like left-right shake of the wheel, however minimal. Cupping means out of balance and out of balance is out of balance, period. You canot balance tire that's not there.

The degree and severity of imbalance cupping causes only changes what speed you detect it. Minor cupping may be detected at very high speed, perhaps over 100 MPH. However, as cupping grows more severe, the speed at which you detect it's vibration will slowly (but surely) come down to more average (daily) speeds.

[Warpath]

Cupping can be caused by out of balance and/or bad shocks. Just to clarify - the saw tooth pattern I mention above is different from cupping. The saw tooth pattern from toe out creates a low and high spot on each block of tread. In other words, the low spot on one tread block is adjacent to the high spot of the previous block. This saw tooth pattern is created from the tire scrubbing along the pavement as you drive straight.

[Pat]

I'm bumping this thread with my experience on the subject matter.

Dealer informed me front tires wearing on the inside tread, both sides.

Took car to favorite shop, was told to go to a specialist, Moseley's in Bossier City. three miles from home.

Took car to said shop, met with friendly, can do attitude, and has experience with Marauders.

Placed Car Fixer's spec sheet in front of tech, he called up the specs on his new Hunter Machine for a Marauder (not a GM) and behold the specs were almost identical.

Aligned car, specs from orginal factory alignment (if done) were way off, car fixed, drives better, customer happy and the coffee was OK too. Cost 35.00 American. 15K miles on clock.

G'nite all.