Time to post this! [Archive] - MercuryMarauder.net Forums

Logan

03-11-2003, 06:49 PM

Being a Canadian, living in the US, I tend to be a bit of a pacifist in comparison, but I'll offer up my pennies.

Way I see it, The US should've done away with Saddam in 91, but unfortunately at that time didn't have a mandate to do so and popular support wasn't there to take it that far.

I should think that after everything the US has done for the world, that our supposed allies would be more supportive in getting rid of a tyrant and dictator. The fact that they aren't though leaves the US hanging in the wind as it were, having to jump through hoops to justify what I believe will be inevitable, an attack on Iraq.

I honestly wish there was worldwide support for the US action, but realize there most likely won't be, which is unfortunate, as it sets the stage and potential for a much larger, global conflict in my opinion.

After all, the way the world sees it, what right does the US have to unilaterally attack another sovereign nation without direct and clear provocation, dictator or no? I shudder to consider being on the receiving end and how terrifying that must utterly be.

Don't get me wrong, I honestly support the US, and although I'm not a citizen, would defend the country with my own life, I care that much. But I also worry about the precedent it sets and the potential carte blanche it gives to other countries to carry out their own military agendas. I also worry for my family and the consequences of the decisions our government is making.

All I can say is heaven help us if it turns out that we attack and after the fact cannot find any evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq's posession.

Wow. I think I violated my own no politic'ing on my board thing, but heck, It's a topic near and dear to everyone's heart's right now.

Just do me a favor and let's endeavor keep this thread from deteriorating ... :)

CRUZTAKER

03-11-2003, 06:53 PM

Hear,Hear....Hear hear hear............:up:

Beadhead

03-11-2003, 07:31 PM

What many are afraid of is that attacking Iraq may be just what what Osama would like the west to do. Rather than advancing the war on terrorism, it may have the opposite effect, by fueling the anti western sentiment that Osama counts on for his support, not to mention the potential carnage to the long suffering Iraqi people during and after an invasion. This is why there is so little support for the war in Canada. Just my $.02.

Patrick

03-11-2003, 07:45 PM

So many great points!!

First I havent even tought of 2004, I want to get thru this first!

As for heros, Those that risk their lives day in and day out, Armed forces Police, Fire rescue and others dont get enought credit!!!!!!!!!!! To those people in the flight over PA was, Cant put that into words!

As far as going in and not finding out he has anything as far as weapons of mass destruction, Saddam knows were going after him this time. In 91 he new he was safe. Not this time. I think he wants to go out a marter, and he we use it all!!!!! He has bio and sum other stuff. IT WILL BE USED! But being ex-military I know troops will be fine. Civilans, I worry!

One side says it will be quick, the other has questions. Either way the after math will long term!!! The bottom line is Saddam has to go!!!!!
And us as being the great country we are have to do the dirty work.

Other countries have thier own agenda, so lack of support is understanbale, But what stance would they have if they had been attacted like we were on 9/11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We could not have attacked fast enough! Another burden to deal with!

In the end we will prevail!!!

My lifed change completely after 9/11. My hole thinking, everthing. Well I will save that for a new thread.

Sorry to carry on, But thank you all for your input. Please keep this going!!!!!!!!

My prayers to those in harms way and thier famaliys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you all again, Patrick

looking97233

03-11-2003, 07:49 PM

I agree the cost of doing this will be great in many ways. I don't think anybody reading this was alive in 1938, I wasn't. My thought: Go find someone who was alive then, ask them what the cost of turning away and doing nothing was. Therse times before us have been a long time comming, we have waited too long, the longer we wait, the higher the cost for the entire world.

We are a nation based on a principal that freedom and liberty is a right given by GOD, does GOD's juridistiction end at our borders?

Patrick

03-11-2003, 07:50 PM

Hey merc I like the duct tape thing!!!!!!:up: :up: . Just leave off Bin Laden and:flamer: . Him!!!!!!!

martyo

03-11-2003, 07:54 PM

After living (thank god) through 9/11, after friends were lost, it is hard to think that there could possible be any alternative open to us as Americans now. The U.S. must stop the madness.

If you are fearful outside of New York, come to our little burgh and we'll show you what the results of those senseless, heinous acts are all about.

We will remember and, we will not forget.

G.B.A.!

glassman99

03-11-2003, 07:54 PM

WMS? Come on. Is Saddom going to give us access to what he has? This has be a joke for 11 years. Is France and Germany going to support us in this? Russia? China? PERSONAL AGENDAS. It appears not. France is totally cotten to the Iraqui's and Germany the same. Money ahead of principles.

Patrick

03-11-2003, 07:59 PM

And if France and Germany fall to a 9/11 attack? should we:

1) help
2) put them on hold
or
3) hang up!

nexstar7

03-11-2003, 08:01 PM

lets pray i doesnt escallade to nuclear. my idea of living since 911 is smoke your smoke drink your drink while you can. and dont forget about family

Patrick

03-11-2003, 08:17 PM

Best said!!!!!:beer: :beer: :bows:

looking97233

03-11-2003, 08:26 PM

My big post for the day.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1993

bozobill

03-11-2003, 09:03 PM

By the time we invade Iraq, we'll have 300,000 troops in theatre. 50,000 to annihilate the Republican Guard within 5 days and 250,000 to collect and process the 1,000,000 Iraqi Army troops who will NOT fight under any cir***stances (especially for the Butcher of Baghdad). I figure 10 days max for all of them to surrender! Any takers?

JamesHecker

03-12-2003, 12:51 AM

Just do me a favor and let's endeavor keep this thread from deteriorating ...

__________________
Logan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by merc406
I'm 50-50 on this one. I say duct tape Osama, Saddam, that North Koren guy, and Bush into the next space shuttle out and see what they can come up with. It'll save a ton of lives which no one wants to see lost...

That didn't take long!

Can you say... poor taste?

prchrman

03-12-2003, 05:05 AM

Anyone remember Omar Kadafy...war is not something that I believe any of our leaders want...but you have to stop the pain somehow and some people only understand pain...Kadafy was going to bring the world to it's knees...but he has not been heard from except to say he had nothing to do with 911...no a war is not a kind, wonderful, pleasant or even fulfilling but sometimes it is needed to protect the innocent...I pray for there to be a way to avoid war but I do not have the info our leaders have and there seems to be a unity on Capital Hill on this one not seen in a long while...in the west they called the Colt 45 the peacemaker...that always seemed ironic to me when younger but now I understand...the Bible states that blessed are the peacemakers it says nothing about peacekeepers...bad guys don't just go away someone has to haul them away...it is a sad fact that some people just want and are willing to take what is not their's...I believe when all is said and done on this one they will find the chemicals and weapons of mass destruction that has been spoken of...but I still pray with all my heart this war to be avoided...God bless our men and women...God bless America

BeaSStMaster

03-12-2003, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by bozobill
By the time we invade Iraq, we'll have 300,000 troops in theatre. 50,000 to annihilate the Republican Guard within 5 days and 250,000 to collect and process the 1,000,000 Iraqi Army troops who will NOT fight under any cir***stances (especially for the Butcher of Baghdad). I figure 10 days max for all of them to surrender! Any takers?

I've followed this thread and see many opinions ... let me add mine:

Wars are never easy. There's a heavy price to pay, regardless of how swift a "victory" might be. Part of the price is watching a mother bury her son or daughter. Nature cries out against this and so do I, having seen this happen too many times in the past.

Before anyone jumps to any conclusions, let me say that I support our leaders and especially our men and women in the Armed Forces. The decisions that our leaders have to make aren't easy ones nor is there a "perfect" solution. As Americans, we've always held ourselves to a higher standard as the example of Democracy. Even though other countries and peoples don't necessarily agree or exalt us, this is our path. A tyrant can't be left to his own nor can we sit by and watch him cause suffering to his own people while posing a real threat to others and to us.

I've been "there" and want to ask that we not minimize the difficulty of the task ahead. This fight, whether we enter it with our "allies" by our side or not, will be difficult. I've fought in this type of war. House-to-house against a well dug-in and fanatic enemy. Mix in a heavy dose of religious fanaticism and our military on the ground will be facing a very dangerous situation. Yes, we can drop 10 times the number of ordinance that was dropped in the Gulf War, but this will still require the forces on the ground.

I pray for our leaders so that they can make the right decisions and the difficult choices. I pray for the safety and well-being of our soldiers in the field and those at home. I pray for the families who watch with worry, for those who will celebrate the return of their loved ones and for those who will shed tears for their loved ones who will make the supreme sacrifice.

Doing the "Right Thing" isn't often easy, but it's still the "Right Thing".

SergntMac

03-12-2003, 05:56 PM

Let me come back to y'all on this thread, if it's okay with you. Just not the right time for me to post here. Okay with y'all?

Matt Johnson

03-12-2003, 07:15 PM

Retired Colonel Mike Turner was General Norman Schwarzkopf's personal briefing officer during Operation Desert Shield and Operation Desert Storm. He outlines a worst-case scenario for a US-led invasion.

General MIKE TURNER:
There's a saying in military circles: We always fight the last war. It means that too much focus on past enemy behavior can easily lead to misjudging an enemy capability in the future. So I asked myself today which war will this be: Desert Storm or Somalia? In 1991, we had four ironclad prerequisites for war with Iraq: a clear political end state, overwhelming force to achieve a quick and decisive victory, a viable Arab coalition to avoid empowering Arab extremists, and absolutely no Israeli involvement to avoid a global holy war.

In Somalia, we ignored the most critical of these lessons. Mission creep turned our original objective of humanitarian aid into simply `Get Aidid,' the Somali factional leader we were battling. We committed US troops to a high-risk military operation in an urban area with extraordinarily dangerous variables in play on the battlefield, and with insufficient firepower thanks to then Secretary of Defense Les Aspin.

Now we've firmly committed ourselves to war with Iraq, and our political objective? To get Saddam. The uniformed Joint Staff in the Pentagon strongly opposed this plan early on. It requires an attack with a force half that of Desert Storm against an entrenched urban enemy renowned for its ruthlessness in defending its own survival. The uniformed Joint Staff was overridden, yet in so many horrifying ways this operation resembles Somalia, not Desert Storm, only with nerve gas and biological weapons. And without Turkey as a base to launch a northern assault, a dual-pronged attack will be all but impossible.

Perhaps we can pull this off, but here's a far worse scenario that's at least as likely. Within hours of our attack, Saddam launches Scuds on Israel. Israel's right-wing government launches a full-scale attack on Iraq, creating a holy war nightmare. Saddam, threatened with his own survival, uses chemical and biological weapons and human shields just as he has in the past. He torches his own oil fields, thousands of his own people are killed. Photos of American soldiers amid landscapes of Iraqi civilian bodies blanket the world press which aligns unanimously against the US. The US is condemned by NATO and the UN.

The war ends within a few weeks, but the crisis deepens. The US is left to administer a political vacuum in Iraq. Iran is emboldened to help the *****es in the south. Disease breaks out, food and water are contaminated and the cost of the war skyrockets. The US economy is dealt a body blow, but the administration can find no credible way out. Britain's Prime Minister Blair is voted out of office.
Meanwhile, al-Qaeda, seeing an opportunity due to a shift in US focus, attacks a major US target. North Korea, emboldened by the distraction, ignores diplomatic efforts to restrain its development of nuclear weapons and begins to export weapons-grade plutonium to terrorists.

These are not remote possibilities, but in my view reasonable, possibly even likely outcomes. Thousands of American sons and daughters are about to go to war with Iraq. They will do their duty. They are, without exception, the finest, bravest people I know. May God bless them. I hope their destination is Baghdad and not Mogadishu.

looking97233

03-12-2003, 09:37 PM

Somebody said we do what is right beacuse it is right, not beacuse it is easy.

Patrick

03-13-2003, 01:06 AM

I think this thread will be here for awhile!!!!!!! Take your time!!!

Patrick

03-15-2003, 04:17 AM

When we go to war, not if but when, Lives will be lost, on both sides! THIS HAS GOT TO END!!!!!!

I repsect evey religion, race annd creed. But this maddness has to stopp!!!!!!!!

The US has benn the last light of hope for the world! And we try every day to keep diplomany going. BUTT ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

We are the center of this, WAIT GOT AN IDEA!! AMREICA WILL CLOSE ITS DOORS. LET SADDAM RUN HIS PRIVATE HELL. HOW MANY WILL PERISH IF THEY DONT DO HIS BIDING!! HE PROVED HE WILL.

LET NORTH KOREA CONTINUE TO DUE DEVOLPOE THIER NUCLEAR PROGRAM! THEY WONT USE IT TOO HELP THIER PEOPLE!

i JUST WAIT FOR NEXT COUNTRY TO BE ATTACKED( I HOPE NEVER). TO GOT THE UN AND US SAY WE NEED HELP AND SAY WE NEED TO HELP FIGHT THIS! WHERE WERE YOU THE FIRST TIME! (FRANCE!!!!!!!!!)

JUST TIRED OF ALL THIS SH$#%%T. .

THIS NOT THE US WAR, ITS TRYING TO FIND THE WORLD TO MAKE PEACE!!!!

SergntMac

03-15-2003, 05:17 AM

I know y'all are going to think I'm nuts, but...

The scenario that's been building in my head for this past week, has come to concern me. At the moment, US and Allied troops are cops standing at the door, waiting to serve the search warrant, while wishing someone inside would start throwing the contraband out a side window. That's still possible, but once we hit the flat, the confrontation will not end until we say so. "I give, office" never worked for me, it ain't over till I say it's over. If we go in, we'll be there a while.

This scenario now places the bulk of US ready forces in country, and within range of the Koreans, who have promised to "attack America," a threat that makes a few of us chuckle, because we believe Korea means to cross the Pacific. Attack America, yes. Across the Pacific? Not necessary.

I'm reminded of one of Patton's views of war, you don't have to defeat the General's army, just his plan. So, once we kick down the door to Iraq, this major deployment of US/Allied forces in a neighbor's back yard must be quite a temptation to Korea, if they only need to defeat a plan.

I believe Korea has no friends, no allies, and if they could "attack America" by defeating it's armed forces in the middle east, for the short term thereafter, they would be the most powerful nation on the planet. This is the recognition Korea, one of the world oldest cultures, has been begging for, for the last century, and this secenario would deliver them a tempting opportunity. It also allows them to play world police, and everybody goes, to keep the peace.

We hit Iraq, Korea hits the middle east, and takes out several enemies and potential enemies, in a short term, long distance nuclear attack. They could later claim self defense to the world court, once American/Allied forces stepped on their block, (continent) it was their right to launch frist strike self defense attack, the same flag we fly now, yes? Let the middle east glow for a few thousand years, it won't hurt Korea one bit, and I don't think China will mind much that Korea reached around.

Over 27 years as a cop, I've settled many a neighborhood dispute by locking everyone up. Easiest way to decide who's right, is to not decide. When the block party goes south, restoring peace is the goal, and everyone goes.

If Korea starts seeing themselves as the world police...

Well, I told you I would drop back, what did you expect?

God bless and guide our Armed Forces and Allies. Around the world, and throughout the history of the world, freedom has never come easy, or cheap.

MAD-3R

03-15-2003, 08:45 AM

Unfortunetly, doing a lock down just won't work. He has a lot of people in his house he can and has killed. He also has no probem arming the roving gangs to go out and cause trouble and terrorize people in the other parts of town.

Do I want us to go in? No.
Do we have to be the worlds police man? No

But if we don't, who will? It's not a pretty job, but it's one that must be done.

Must be almost what cops feel everyday....

I did serve. Navy man here. I did what I felt was my duty.

Mark McQuaide

03-15-2003, 01:08 PM

I guess I'll jump in here...

I served as well, as a "cold warrier" so to speak, in a Pershing Battalion. Pershings were the medium-range mobile nukes deployed in Germany. I was one of the guys with half the combination to the launch codes and spent my time decoding a steady stream of message traffic, waiting for the moment.

Around '83, we started the deployment of the Pershing IIs, a much improved version put in there to counter the Soviet SS-20s in Russia and the old "East Bloc", which then of course included half of Germany.

We went through months of protests, people lying in front of our trucks, blocking gates, vandalizing equipment, and being a general pain the $ss, and some of them quite comical whether they intended to be or not. A lot of the European public at the time was opposed to the deployment, but Reagan stood firm, as he was wont to do, and the missiles went in.

Today, if you walk in the Smithsonian Air&Space in DC, look to your left just inside the front door and there stands a Pershing-II, with an SS-20 along side it. Germany and the East Bloc are now united, free and democratic, and the missiles are gone. Those Eastern Europeans are now staunch allies because they remember.

This Mid-East/Korea situation is one more challenge for us. There are millions of people suffering horribly under totalitarian regimes that threaten our very existence. We didn't bring it on ourselves; it came to our door, and now we have to deal with it.

I think it has to be done, that we will prevail, and that the world will be a better place when it's over. Our leaders and allies just need to stand firm. A decade of appeasement led to 9-11, and more of the same isn't going to stop the next one.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke

OK, back to car talk.

JamesHecker

03-15-2003, 01:39 PM

Just wanted to comment that I have appreciated reading some of the very well written posts here.

Seems like "gearheads" can have sophistication as well! :D

MAD-3R

03-15-2003, 07:12 PM

Ugh ugh vroom vroom.

Patrick

03-15-2003, 09:55 PM

Well go back to car talk in another forum. !!!!!

Freedom is never easy! Alot will suffer , but in the end people will have the freedoms we do!!! Our country has its flaws, is NOT perfect! But we are the leading country to help bring help to suppressed nations. I am not :flamer: . anyone here!!! Just venting!!!

How many People in China, North Korea, Iraqe and others have the freedom we do??? Have a forum like this, to speak your mind, express yourself and be you!!!!! Its your opinion and I welcome it!!!!!!

Freedom comes at a high cost, but would happen if let things go on the way they are?????How much suffering and pain would if didnt DO what was right!!!

I dont want war. But, I will stop for now.

Take care all, Patrick

Patrick

03-17-2003, 05:24 PM

Looks like its time!!!! 40 minutes and lets see what the president is going to do!!

Patrick

03-17-2003, 05:49 PM

INSPECTORS FROM A WOMAN'S PERSPECTIVE:

Have you noticed anything fishy about the inspection
teams who have arrived in Iraq? They're all men!

How in the name of the United Nations does anyone
expect men to find Saddam's stash? We all know that
men have a blind spot when it comes to finding
things. For crying' out loud! Men can't find the
dirty clothes hamper. Men can't find the jar of
jelly until it falls out of the cupboard and
splatters on the floor.... and these are the people
we have sent into Iraq to search for hidden weapons
of mass destruction?

I keep wondering why groups of mothers weren't
sent in. Mothers can sniff out secrets quicker than
a drug dog can find a gram of dope. Mothers can find
gin bottles that dads have stashed in the attic
beneath the rafters. They can sniff out a diary two
rooms and one floor away. They can tell when the lid
of a cookie jar has been disturbed and notice when a
quarter inch slice has been shaved off a chocolate
cake. A mother can smell alcohol on your breath
before you get your key in the front door and can
smell cigarette smoke from a block away. By
examining laundry, a mother knows more about their
kids than Sherlock Holmes. And if a mother wants an
answer to a question, she can read an offender's
eyes quicker than a homicide detective.

So... considering the value a mother could bring to
an inspection team, why are we sending a bunch of
old men who will rely on electronic equipment to
scout out hidden threats?

My mother would walk in with a wooden soup spoon in
one hand, grab Saddam by the ear, give it a good
twist and snap, "Young man, do you have any weapons
of mass destruction?" And God help him if he tried
to lie to her. She'd march him down the street to
some secret bunker and shove his nose into a nuclear
bomb and say, "Uh, huh, and what do you call this,
mister?" Whap! Thump! Whap! Whap! Whap! And she'd
lay some stripes across his bare bottom with that
soup spoon, then march him home in front of the
whole of Baghdad. He'd not only come clean and
apologize for lying about it, he'd cut every lawn
in Baghdad for free for the whole summer.

Inspectors INDEED... You want the job done? Call a
mother.

CRUZTAKER

03-17-2003, 08:08 PM

:confused:

There was a reason that we did not have women on the DMZ.

SergntMac

03-19-2003, 08:13 AM

Thank you, Patrick, for the balance in opinions. Yup, Moms make pretty good cops, and they are swift with the corporal punishment as well.

Down to the last hours now, troops starting to line up. I'm confident that the mission will be clean, fast and sure.

Never watched anything this "live" before, the only thing CNN hasn't covered yet, is catching Powell or Rumsfeld stepping off to pee. Alas, give them time...

RCSignals

03-20-2003, 12:43 AM

It is indeed interesting to actually see them go through Battle Drills "live". Only a matter of time before they cross the Start Line now

Patrick

03-20-2003, 12:55 AM

Thank you Mac!!!

I just in from work. I didnt access to alot of info. I assumed we had troops on the move?? First blood!! Gen Franks and his staff have a plan, whatt??? Who knows, But I trust them and more importantly, when Our men and women have to due their thing they will do a great job!!!!!

God bless them!!!!

Katmandu

03-20-2003, 05:10 PM

As I write this, I have (9) days left to serve as an NCO in the USAF. Come 1 APR 03, I will have served 20 years Active Duty military.

I must say my insight of the Military workings has left a profound POSITIVE impression on me and I have FULL FAITH in the competancies of our Military Leadership and the Troops as a whole. http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/usa.gif

The current Administration (though...NOT perfect) is the absolute Priemier when it comes to directing Military action. VP Cheney, Gen.Powell (Ret), Sec.Rumsfield are ALL the Best of the Best IMHO!http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/usa.gif

My view of our (the USAs) position in this war is that it MUST absolutely be done. No ifs, ands, ors about it. The timing was abit awkward, but nonetheless necessary.

I admit, I am quite anxious and nervous myself since I have MANY friends and co-workers in harm's way. I do believe we will suffer causualties, but the scope is determined if Saddam is STUPID enough (which I believe he is) to lob a few WMDs at our troops.

To take the Leftists, Pacifists position is PURE SUICIDE in my view! Sticking one's "Head-in-the-Sand" will only result CAIOS!

A Proactive approach/engagment is really the only way to go in this war.

I honestly wish there was worldwide support for the US action,

There are AT LEAST (44 - JUST Reported on Foxnews BTW) Countries that are members of the current Coalition!!!

Please don't get caught up in the Emotional HYPE from the Leftists of the world and fall victim to the Propagandahttp://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif !!

The Leftists (IMHO) are nothing more than misguided/uninformed/over Emotional HIPPIE WANNABES!

Most of these people are simply trying to recreate the ROMANCE of the Anti-War Movement from the Vietnam War!

They want nothing more than to emmulate the people of the 60's era and jump up and down SCREAMING Anti-War slogans. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Now is NOT the time for this http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif!! NOT when out Troops are actively engaged.

Support for our Troops is PARAMOUNT to anything else at this point!!

I dislike war and suffering as much as anyone, but sometimes in life, You gotta do what ya gotta do.

Patrick, hang in there. We WILL all get thru this and in my view, things will eventually calm back down and the people of IRAQ WILL be Liberated and FREE to choose to do as they wish!

dok

03-20-2003, 06:03 PM

Katmandu

Very well put. :up:

Patrick

03-21-2003, 12:44 AM

:up: :up: :beer:

Patrick

03-23-2003, 09:55 PM

I am the only one?? And I feel guilty. The need to try and back to sum sense normal see? GOD I wish we didnt have too this. Just doing an roller coaster emotion thing! When I heard of the troops captued and sum executed . I have not been right all day!
Just need to vent. Sorry!!! Let it go for know!

But I end this note with this.

I have never had a shot fired at me in anger. But I have worn the uniform (3 tours in Korea) and served a total of 12 yrs.

For those that have served, Guard, Resreve and Active duty, I thank you!! There is an unspoken bond between us!

For those who havent, I thank you for supprt!!!!!

Let freedom reign!!!!!!!

Patrick

TAF

03-24-2003, 06:21 AM

I've refrained from posting here...but, this a.m. I just felt the need.

War is about 2 things...Blowin up stuff and killing people. If you're not prepared to do both, then don't do it.

I've got friends over there. Let's stop this "Surgical Strike" stuff and get this thing over with. I don't want to see or hear about anymore of our (Coalition) boys taken down. These cowards need to fall immediately and hard or God help us in the next 48 hours when we reach Baghdad.

Why are the lights still on, why is the Iraqi T.V. still transmitting, why have we not "lit up" the sky with these bastages???? Send them straight to hell a little sooner than was previously planned.

No apologies from me for this statement!

Fourth Horseman

03-24-2003, 10:20 AM

I agree with the sentiment TAF, but actually I think it might pay to slow down a bit and spend a couple of days letting the air hit the tactical targets.

The pasting those 1st Air Cav Apaches took indicates to me we could use more time prep'ing the battlefield.

I'm all for combined arms ops, but we're almost untouchable from the air, why not spend a few days blasting the hell out of enemy troop positions and make things easier on our surface forces?

That's my $0.02.

Patrick

03-24-2003, 09:08 PM

Todd, I agre %100!! I than you for 2 cents!This is hard time! Torn emotions, let it go for know~

Katmandu

03-27-2003, 07:57 PM

For those that have served, Guard, Resreve and Active duty, I thank you!! There There is an unspoken bond between us!

Absolutely Patrick. Those are MY BROTHERs AND SISTERs over there as well as yours!

It is extremely painful (Especially for us Military folks) to see a fellow warrior suffer and be KIA/MIA! :po: :po: Our brothers and sisters have died for a JUST CAUSE. Rest assured that they did NOT die in vain!

Then to pour acid in the wound by having them EXPOITED on TV is horrific. :po:

Let this NOT weaken our RESOLVE. As a Japanese General once stated.... "I'm afraid we've awoken a sleeping GIANT".

We WILL PREVAIL!

Everyone now...... "WE WILL WE WILL ROCK YOU!!!".........

Katmandu

03-27-2003, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by TAF
Why are the lights still on, why is the Iraqi T.V. still transmitting, why have we not "lit up" the sky with these bastages???? Send them straight to hell a little sooner than was previously planned.

If we were Barbarians like Saddam and his regime we would have done so already.

If we were like them, we would have simply lobbed over a few Nuclear tipped Minuteman IIs ICBMs and would have been done with it!

THANK GOD we ARE a Humane a decent people!!

Also, keep in mind, even though approximately 80% of Baghdad's population (5,000,000) has evacutated, there are STILL 20% left there!

This means there are roughly 1,000,000 CIVILIANS STILL there!

These are people that may have had NO CHOICE or the MEANS to leave Bagdad even if they wanted! These are most likely the poor people that are barely getting by as it is!

Our MAIN mission is to REMOVE Saddam's evil regime so the people of IRAQ can live in PEACE as we do here!

Dropping a NUKE on them is certainly the EASIEST way to deal with this complex problem. Unfortuneatly is based on a EMOTIONAL response and the consequences would FAR out way the benefits of having done so.

WAR is a majorly COMPLEX and requires COOL, intelligent leadership. Making decisions based SOLEY on emotions will most certainly cause more causulaties all around.

BTW....... What really Fukked up our war plans was the Turkish government NOT allowing the 4th Marine Mechanised Division access into Northern IRAQ!! :po: :po: :po:

Just IMAGINE how the war would be going if we actually got the 4th Mechanized Division rumbling into Bagdad from the NORTH.

The 3rd Marine Mechanized Division is kicking some SERIOUS IRAQ ASS (coming up from Kuwait) and is just miles outside Bagdad right now!

What we need to do now is get more REENFORCEMENTS up there to back up the 3rd Mechanized Division and pull out ALL THE STOPS on the use of our Air Power domination!!

Hang in there folks and keep cool heads. Don't listen and believe EVERYTHING you hear and read in the media!

Patrick

03-28-2003, 01:50 AM

Could not have put it any better!!!!!!!:coolman: .

But I would like to make apoint or two. First :puke: . on Turkey!! Sorry, And a few others. Turkey wanted ex amount off $'s to use thier air bases and air space. OK Saddam turns to turkey and uses chemical against them!!! How much do we charge to BAILL THIER ASS OUT??????? I leave that at that!!!!

Did anyone hear Germany griping the other day. They said it not FAIR that American and British companies will have the first right at contracts at rebiulding!!!!! I DONT SEE YOUR BUT IN THIER RIGHT KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So sad they even the nerve to make a statement like that!!!:flamer: .

And last, For those dont remember, the first war was COMPLETELY differant from what what were are know doing. Our only priority was just to remove Iraq from Quait ( It should been more than that, my 2cts) So the Iraq army just gave up becuase they knew once we got Quait we would stop. This is and effort to GET THEM!!!!!! I expected a longer a harder time. Self preservation! Those that thought this be another 100 war, sad news!!! Stakes are differant!!

Sorry to ramble on. I do that from time to time!:flamer: .

Peace will prevail in the end!!!!! I hope for the safe return of men and women. And That the Iraq people will be able to live and prosper in the freedom that we have, IN THIER OWN WAY!!!!!!

Patrick

Katmandu

03-28-2003, 04:10 AM

Originally posted by Patrick
Did anyone hear Germany griping the other day. They said it not FAIR that American and British companies will have the first right at contracts at rebiulding!!!!! I DONT SEE YOUR BUT IN THIER RIGHT KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So sad they even the nerve to make a statement like that!!!:flamer: .

I think the French are the one's mainly pushing that point. Bunch of opportunistic PARASITES!! Their government is simply disgusting and NOT A FRIEND of the USA by ANY means! :po:

The Germans want to boycott Coca Colas and Snickers. (Oooh! Hurt us!) :rolleyes:

How many Coca Colas and Snickers = (1) Mercedes 450 SEL or BMW 7 Series ?? :P :P

the first war was COMPLETELY differant from what what were are know doing. Our only priority was just to remove Iraq from Quait ( It should been more than that, my 2cts)

Yea, that's true, but the POLITICAL Climate at the time was FAR different than it is right now. The Mission back in 1991 was the to expel the IRAQ's from Kuwait.

To change the mission (to what we are doing right now), would NEVER have gone over (POLITICALLY) back ib 1991. The "WILL" to do so was simply NOT there at the time.
[/QUOTE]

Heavy351

03-28-2003, 09:19 AM

Just have to make one little short point. :rolleyes:

I, of course believe that peace is preferable to war. But in regards to those out there who feel the need to disrupt our lives (New York) need a little perspective. I am reminded of a well used quote:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
- John Stewart Mill

Peace activists need to remember that they live in a country where better men have made the sacrifice to allow them the privilege of saying exactly what they want in public and in the media regardless of how much people like me and most of the rest of the US hate it.

In the country where our soldiers are now fighting the regime would have rounded up them and their banners before the paint had dried. Likely to never be heard from again.

People left to their own devices in a "free" country will, for the most part, live decent lives. Devoting most of their attention to raising their family and insuring their well being.

In a place like Iraq where your worth is measured in the value you bring to one man, you live a different kind of life. You eventually fall into one of two positions:

You are of morally strong convictions and believe in the equality and value of you fellow man and you are not afraid to say so. You are likely to get yourself killed or worse, get your family killed. So you keep quiet and tow the party line.

Or, you start to believe the way to get ahead is to show what you are willing to do to prove your loyalty to the one in power. As time goes on you become numb, accustomed to, and finally convinced of the increasing sacrifices that have to be made to keep yourself "loyal".

The second bunch are the ones we are dealing with in Basra and the ones who will fight beyond the point it makes any sense to anymore.

What makes the peace activists think that those fighters or people of that mindset care about invisible borders between countries? When the one in power feels that his needs would be served by sending loyalists here to do harm they will be lining up to go while boasting of how many they will kill. The ones willing to kill themselves to do it will find themselves at the top of the list. Feel free to substitute my reference to "the one in power" for any fanatical ideological, political, or religious movement.

I expect the leaders of this country to do what it takes to protect me and my family and I really couldn't give a damm about forming a coalition with other countries to muddy up what is my primary concern. Is it morally just? From where I am standing, less than 10 min from the crater here in PA where people of this mindset crashed an airliner into the ground, absolutely yes.

Peace activists have spent their lives under the protection of our troops who are prepared to die to protect their right to make complete a$$es out of themselves.

When the war of liberation is over and we then see the free and unafraid protesters in Iraq start yelling "yankee go home!" we can leave the country in the hands of the ever so capable UN :shake: and be comforted by knowing that we have done the Iraqis the greatest service, even though like the protesters here, they may not appreciate it.

sailsmen

03-28-2003, 11:44 AM

I don't know why the US Media holds Europe in such high esteem. I have lived in Europe. Unemployment averages 10+% vs our of 4.5%. In Europe there is far less indiviual and business freedom. In most European countries individuals do not have a bill of rights.

There is very little economic mobility. In some countries your economic future is virtually set at birth, in many there is a caste system.

In WWII alone round number 300,000 American killed in battle on foreign soil and another 700,000 American casualties on foreign soil. All to liberate a people in another country from a foreign occupying force.

In exchange for the cost of WWI, WWII, Marshall Plan, MaCarthur Plan, NATO, Berlin Airdrop, Cold War, Kosovo, Foreign Aid and Loan Guarranties in dollars and blood we have only asked in return for land to bury our dead.

Too many in Europe have destain for their savior, the USA.:alone:

Patrick

04-05-2003, 09:37 PM

Sorry just need to vent!!!!!!1 I am only one who seems to watching a stupid movie (for lack of a better term). The Iraqe army has been doomed from the on set. We have proven that!!!!

Just tired of listening to BS from whats left of thier government!!! I know I shouldnt let it get to me , but it does!!!

Sorry! But those from Syria and Jordon and a few others that sent marters into fight, be careful!!!!!!!We have troops thier and if you want a fight, Just look at the footage of what we have dun so far!!!!!!!!!!! The US is still pissed over 9/11. Dont push the issue!!!!!!!!! The middle east and for that matter France and others need to be careful!

We are not out for world domination, but since we have been choosen and need to be the leaders of the free world, Times have changed! The US we not be sielent no more!!!!!!!

And Last I pray for my brothers and my sisters in harms way!!!!! And to thier famalies!!!!!!

Thanks for putting up with my 2 cts. Patrick!

Menace

04-05-2003, 11:57 PM

Right on Pat!

Katmandu

04-06-2003, 12:51 PM

Roger that Pat.

Only (1) thing though... We were NOT chosen to be the World's SuperPower.

We earned that Right. It is our position now to protect FREEDOM wherever it may exists.

Patrick

04-07-2003, 12:51 AM

Good point Kat!!!!!!!!

BeaSStMaster

04-07-2003, 06:29 AM

I thought that I'd pass this along. It seems to give a clear explaination of what we're doing in Iraq and why.

A LESSON TO MY SON
by A PROUD AMERICAN
Irma S. Chambers

The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war. My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good explanation.

My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand in our front living room window. He told him:

"Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"

"I see trees and cars and our neighbors houses." he replied.

"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United States of America and you are President Bush."

Our son giggled and said "OK."

"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house and yard on this block is a different country." my husband said.

"OK Dad, I'm pretending."

"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that man come out of his house with his wife and he has her by the hair and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death. Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and afraid of their father. You see all of this son....what do you do?"

"Dad?"

"What do you do son?!"

"I call the police, Dad."

"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do you do then son?!"

"Dad, but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to whine.

"They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my husband says.

"But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.

"I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."

"Daddy...he kills them?" (Remembering the hundreds of bodies found in an Iraqi warehouse by British troops?)

"Yes son, he does. What do you do?"

"Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door neighbor to help me stop him." our son says.

"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my husband says.

"But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"

"WHAT DO YOU DO SON?"

Our son starts to cry.

"OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?"

"What Daddy?"

"He walks across the street to the old ladies house and breaks down her door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire and then ... he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing at the window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!"

"Daddy..."

"WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!"

Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I close the blinds, Daddy."

My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him... "Why?"

"Because Daddy ... the police are supposed to help...people who need it ... and they won't help ... You always say that neighbors are supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either ... they won't help me stop him ... I'm afraid ... I can't do it by myself ... Daddy ... I can't look out my window and just watch him do all these terrible things and ... and ... do nothing ... so ... I'm just going to close the blinds ... so I can't see what he's doing ... and I'm going to pretend that it is not happening."

I start to cry.

My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husbands questions and he tells him ... "Son?"

"Yes, Daddy."

"Open the blinds because that man ...he's at your front door ... "WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!!"

My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up his tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without
hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!!!"

I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs my son to his chest and hugs him tight, and cries ... "It's too late to fight him, he's too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son ... you should have stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife. You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it alone, before......it's too late." my husband whispers.

THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men stand by and let evil happen is the greatest EVIL of all. Our President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand that this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove this evil man from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are not afraid to look out our window and see crimes on humanity. So that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels that if he just "closes" that blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect him. Today the second day of "WAR on IRAQ" I felt compelled to write this and pass it along. Hopefully, you will understand the lesson my husband tried to teach our son.

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!" BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR PRESIDENT! BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!! SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA!! SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS...."

MM03MOK

04-07-2003, 06:40 AM

Very moving, BeaSStMaster, and right on the money!

TAF

04-09-2003, 11:07 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/images/87085/60_25_3.jpg

Matt Johnson

04-09-2003, 12:11 PM

So I guess that means we'll be going to the Congo next to stop what's going on there?

Patrick

04-09-2003, 04:44 PM

Thanks BeastMaster!!!!!!! Shead a tear reading that. With your permission I would like to send that to friends?

To Matt, where we go next, I dont know. If Iam wrong I am sorry but are you oppsed to the war? Trying to figure out the Congo thing.

Sorry Patricks got to get this off chest. No offense intinded!!

Where to start. Our country is not perfect. Health care, Race and I could go on. Putting freedom into words is so hard!I just cant imagine beeing so supprest that I couldnt voice my views with out fear! Could use some help here!

I was moved by the news reports of (Him), wont justify his name no more, being torn down and the people of Irage celibrating!!!!!!!

Sorry to carry on. Just seeing the poeple rejoycing and thinking of those who have payed the ultimate price to give them right make me proud and sad at the same time! ITS NEVER EASY!!!!!!!!!!!

Matt Johnson

04-10-2003, 12:24 AM

Patrick,

My emotions and thoughts about this war are too mixed to call myself either "opposed" or "pro." I am both, and I am neither. I don't really see war as a "bumper sticker" kind of thing.

The only thing I can say with absolute certainty about this war is that it scares me. The long-term consequences cannot possibly be fathomed right now by anyone. And although the war may be bringing "freedom" to Iraqis in the immediate future, and might be getting rid of an immediate real threat to our own national security, (but we won't know for sure until the dreaded Weapons of Mass Destruction that were given as the very reason for waging this war are actually found), who knows what the war and its fallout in the Arab world might possibly bring to US citizens right here on our own soil long after George W. Bush himself is dead and buried. In other words, this war may well be setting in motion the very thing that we have all been led to believe that it is being conducted to deter. The oft-repeated quote about our actions in Iraq possibly creating " a 100 Bin Ladens" illustrates what I'm talking about.

But what's more frightening to me than the war and any of its possible negative consequences down the road is the rampant desire for people to reduce the complex thoughts and the conflicting emotions it may arouse - chiefly, the great unknown consequences of its execution - to an oversimplified, and, in this case what I feel to be a rather offensive and crude allegory in the guise of helping a child understand what it's all about. I found the story kind of vulgar, really, and as a father I can't imagine "explaining" this war, or anything for that matter, in this way to my own child. I have too much respect for my child, for anybody's child, to beat them to tears with the blunt end of what I see as a very simplistic and self-righteous sermon of sorts. If an allegory doesn't see far enough ahead into its own logic, it can become a dangerous tool, something that actually obscures and not illuminates the truth.

I mean, nobody can argue that Saddam Hussein was a good guy. He screwed his own people out of a country for 30 years. He committed unspeakable atrocities on them and their neighbors. And we know he didn't think much of us. But did we really need to go in there and kill several thousand (and counting) more of his own people, not to mention the close to a hundred of "our own people," for him to make sure he wasn't going to show up on our doorstep? And, to continue with the logic of the allegory, what about the other "wife beaters" in the city? If we knock off one, shouldn't we knock them all off? And what about that guy in the other house at the end of the block, the guy who LOOKS like a wife beater. I mean, you know if he's not actually beating his wife now, he's going to beat her at some point, right? So shouldn't we just go ahead and get rid of him, too? Right now? Who cares if he hasn't actually laid a hand on anybody? Why give him the chance? Right? (I'm reminded of some familiar lyrics from Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' as I'm writing this). And what happens to that wife beater's kids? When they watch us kill their father, isn't there a chance they might get angry enough, they might get so filled with shame and humiliation and rage at the ease with which we erased their dad that they might just skip the whole wife beating part of their own development and not even bother to show up on our doorstep but come down our chimney instead one night while we're sleeping? Who do we go kill then?

As far as the reference to the Congo...I apologize because it doesn't really fit in the context of this post. I spoke too quick, without thinking it through myself in terms of the whole stopping-the-wife-beater-before-he-shows-up-at-your-doorstep thing. In the Congo right now there are people being brutally massacred by the bushel, but there are no rumored weapons of mass destruction available to those who are doing the killing. They're only using machetes and clubs. And they haven't raised them at us yet...

P.S. I love my Marauder.

Patrick

04-10-2003, 04:47 PM

Matt,

I wasnt trying to find if you are for or agianst the war. Sorry if I came off wrong!!

I will agree that message too the nine yr old was a bit harsh. But I was brought up the south side of Chicago. And messages (I feel) need to straight forward and honest! Even if hurts a bit.

You gave me alot to think about your views about the long term consequenses of what we are doing. I knew when we went in this time, things are going to change. After decades of diplomacy and trying to bring the arab comunity together, we finaaly did what no one thought we do!

I belive in the end our cause is true and Freedom will prevail. But it will long and the cost not cheap. For both!

Thanks for your veiws Matt. Thats why I started this Thread. I welcome all views and asspects of whats going on! Its nice we can do this an free and open society.

Thanks again, Patrick

SergntMac

04-11-2003, 05:16 PM

Last week, the Shelby County Alabama Legislative Delegation hosted a "Stand Up for America Rally." More than 1,200 people attended including featured speakers Chief Justice Roy Moore, Adjutant General Mark Bowen and Alabama State Auditor Beth Chapman. Attached is a copy of Mrs. Chapman's speech, which resulted in five standing ovations, tremendous applause and an encore. It's a short read and well worth it.

I'm here tonight because men and women of the United States military have given their lives for my freedom. I am not here tonight because Sheryl Crowe, Rosie O'Donnell, Martin Sheen, George Clooney, Jane Fonda or Phil Donahue, sacrificed their lives for me.

If my memory serves me correctly, it was not movie stars or musicians, but the United States Military who fought on the shores of Iwo Jima, the jungles of Vietnam, and the beaches of Normandy. Tonight, I say we should support the President of the United States and the U.S. Military and tell the liberal, tree-hugging, Birkenstock-wearing, hippy, tie-dyed liberals to go make their movies and music and whine somewhere else.

After all, if they lived in Iraq, they wouldn't be allowed the freedom of speech they're being given here today. Ironically, they would be put to death at the hands of Sadam Husssein or Osama Bin Laden. I want to know how the very people who are against war because of the loss of life, can possibly be the same people who are for abortion?

They are the same people who are for animal rights but against the rights of the unborn. The movie stars say they want to go to Iraq and serve as "human shields" for the Iraqis. I say let them buy a one-way ticket and go. No one likes war. I hate war! But the one thing I hate more is the fact that this country has been forced into war-innocent people have lost their lives - - and there but for the grace of God, it could have been my brother, my husband, or even worse my own son.

On December 7, 1941, there are no records of movie stars treading the blazing waters of Pearl Harbor. On September 11, 2001; there are no photos of movie stars standing as "human shields" against the debris and falling bodies ascending from the World Trade Center. There were only policemen and firemen --underpaid civil servants who gave their all with nothing expected in return.

When the USS Cole was bombed, there were no movie stars guarding the ship - - where were the human shields then? If America's movie stars want to be human shields, let them shield the gang-ridden streets of Los Angeles, or, New York City, let them shield the lives of the children of North Birmingham whose mothers lay them down to sleep on the floor each night to shelter them from stray bullets.

If they want to be human shields, I say let them shield the men and women of honesty and integrity that epitomizes courage and embody the spirit of freedom by wearing the proud uniforms of the United States Military. Those are the people who have earned and deserve shielding!

Throughout the course of history, this country has remained free, not because of movie stars and liberal activists, but because of brave men and women who hated war too. However, they lay down their lives so that we all may live in freedom. After all - "What greater love hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friend," or in this case a country.

We should give our military honor and acknowledgement and not let their lives be in vain. If you want to see true human shields, walk through Arlington Cemetery. There lie human shields, heroes, and the BRAVE Americans who didn't get on television and talk about being a human shield - they were human shields.

I thank God tonight for freedom - - those who bought and paid for it with their lives in the past - - those who will protect it in the present and defend it in the future.

America has remained silent too long! God-fearing people have remained silent too long! We must lift our voices united in a humble prayer to God for guidance and the strength and courage to sustain us throughout whatever the future may hold. After the tragic events of Sept. 11th, my then eleven-year-old son said terrorism is a war against them and us and if you're not one of us, then you're one of them.

So, in closing tonight, let us be of one accord, let us stand proud, and let us be the human shields of prayer, encouragement and support for the President, our troops and their families and our country.

May God bless America, the land of the free, the home of the brave and the greatest country on the face of this earth.

jgc61sr2002

04-11-2003, 06:52 PM

Sarg - Well said I couldn't agree more. John

Patrick

04-11-2003, 07:27 PM

I coundnt agree more!:bows: :bows:

sailsmen

04-11-2003, 07:34 PM

I came across four very interesting articles from four different types of news outlets that show a defininte link between 911 and Saddam.

Do a search for 1) Guardian Unlimited Archive Ed Vullianry Kate Connolly 2) PBS - Frontline gunning for Saddam interview Sabah Khodada 3) Intelbriefing.com Dr. Robert Koontz and 4) Interrogations link Al Qaeda to Iraq William Safire The New York Times.

There is no doubt that Saddam was developing nuclear weapons and was going to use them againest the US. To paraphrase one of Iraq's former Nuclear scientest , "the only reason Saddam in a country with a high percentage of the worlds known oil reserves would build a nuclear power plant is to build nuclear weapons". The Nuclear power plant was built by the French attacked by the Iranians and destroyed by the Israelis but after it had produced enriched uranium.

If you pm me with your email address I will forward the articles. I don't want to post them here due to copyright.

"All evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing"

I was initially againest us getting invloved in Kosovo. I thought it's not a threat to our National Security Interest and it's in Europe's back yard, let Europe deal with it. Then a friend told me the above quote and said if we took no action then all the black hearted despots of the world would take notice and evil would succeed, ending up on our door step. He also reminded me that Germany did not attack the US in WWI or WWII.

We are not attacking Saddam because he "looks like a wife beater". We are attacking him because he is an evil dictator bent on destroying us. The Arab world is not a free world. It is this fact and the tyranny that those in the Arab world live under that is the breeding ground for the 100 Osama Bin Ladens. The Arab world's dictators are terrified of the freedom that the Iraqis will have spreading and resulting in their elimination. These Arab dictators foster and promote hate againest the US. They turn the people they repress anger and hatered towards the US. An example by law 5 times every Friday every Iranian must prey death to USA.

Patrick

04-11-2003, 10:10 PM

I am listening to " 3 doors down" whileI am posting this. The song is " Love me I am gone". I dont know if anyone has heard this song. Butt to me it has a personnall message. I will try and post the vid here!

I belive our cause is true! Sorry to dwel on the dark side of this thread!

When I was sent off to Korea (3 times) It was peace time but you never knoow!!!!!!!!

For thoose who have faught the unttimiate fight, (WE ALL THANK YOU) And to those stilll fightiing, keep it it up@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope for safe return!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Patrick

04-27-2003, 12:57 AM

I want to keep this thread going(For personall reasons) The war is over but the job is not dun!!!! I Hpe it will be soon!

Just listening to (3 doors down, luv me when I am gone) And the Vid!

For those who have paid the the ulimate price . THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! Rest in peace my brothers and sisters!!!!!

I cant put into words my feeliings. So proud of you!!!!!!!

amedd50

04-27-2003, 05:54 PM

One of our biggest problems is that we never learn our lesson. Before I say anything else I support our troops regardless of what happens and I love our country. However, we as a people never research before we elect anyone. Some vote straight party, some vote because their friends voted that way and most do not vote. Here is a little history for those that are too young to know. In 1974, then President Ford sent specialist to Iraq to train them in Chemical, Biological and Nuclear Defense. In order to understand defense against WMD you must know WMD offensively. Guess who the Sec. of Defense was at the time - Rumsfeld. In 1982, then President Reagan sent private citizen Rumsfeld to Iraq to talk about selling Saddam arms. At the same time this was going on, in fact while Rumsfeld was in Baghdad, Saddam was gassing the Iranians. His response to the press at the time was "not my fight". President Reagan got the State Department to change Iraq from a terrorist nation state to a favorable nation state. This was done so that we could sell arms to Iraq. Only after Iraq used the Hueys that we sold him to gas his own people did Congress stop the further sale of arms to Iraq. Then Vice-President Bush did not have anything to say when he was asked about what Rumsfeld was doing while Saddam was gassing Iranians. But when he gassed his own people all of a sudden he became a "BAD person". Someone who after he invaded Kuwait had to be delt with because he threat to everyone. Duh how long did it take Bush to figure that out. A little slow on the up take there. Does anyone not find it strange that our CIA and NSA knows where the WMD are in Iraq (at least that is the impression they gave everyone when he spoke to the UN) but they knew nothing about the 9/11 attacks. Another piece of history. In 1972 Congress tried to pass a bill that delt with student visa's. In that bill was an admendment that would require the airlines to fortify the flight crews door. This was during all the hijackings. The airline industry lobbied that all the hijacking was overseas and that it was too expensive to do, so Congress dropped it from the bill. Think what would have happened on 9/11 if Congress had balls and the lobbiest did not get their way. Just a little history for you all. Did you know that in 1969 we were in Turkey and ready to go into Iraq because of what was happening. This was prior to Saddam. Also did you know that contracts to rebuild Iraq were let to political insiders in Dec. of 2002. Maybe in the next election we will vote after we reseach everyone, and truely be democratic.
Should Saddam have been gotten rid of, YES, but we should have done it in the early 80's when he was gassing people. It is always ashame when one has to go to war. But it is a bigger shame when our own people are not even aware of what our politicians have done in the name of Democracy. I could tell you some stories about Vietnam that the public is not aware of, but that is for another time.
I pray for our troops to return safe and I pray that the Iraqi people can make the most of this opportunity and they can find peace among themselves and with the world.

GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!