What's the difference....

[Reaper948]

Small block and big block? What differentiates the 'smallness' with the 'bigness'

[Mard]

I know the small block is smaller than the big block and the big block is bigger than the small block:D .


I have no idea. Good question.

[kingsford]

I have no idea, but to confuse things a little more I think that I heard that the 351 came as either a windsor or cleveland, and only one was a big block. Please correct me if I am wrong

[Slowpoke]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

A big-block engine is a North American V8 in a family of engines which generally have greater than 5.9 litres (360 cubic inches) of displacement; factory engine sizes reached a peak of 8.2 litres (500 cubic inches) in Cadillac's 1970s range. Smaller V8 engines are known as small-blocks; some members of small-block engine families may exceed 6 litres, blurring the distinction somewhat. The distinction came about in the early 1960s when the large full-size cars needed a bigger V8 than the smaller intermediate and compact cars. Prior to that point, manufacturers normally had only one V8 engine line.

The term is normally used only for engines from the "Big Three" (Ford Motor Company, General Motors, and Chrysler Corporation) since the other companies did not keep two V8 engine size families.

Big-block V8s were most commonly used in full-size and luxury cars, rather than performance vehicles. Thus, they were commonly tuned and built for smoothness, low-end torque to get heavy cars rolling, and effortless cruising. Many big-block engines were less technically sophisticated than their small-block counterparts, and their power-to-weight ratios were often lower.

They did see performance applications, however. Performance-tuned big-blocks were used in NASCAR racing, and homologation requirements saw these engines sold for road use. NASCAR's 7-litre engine size limit explains why many high-performance big blocks are of this size; Chevrolet's 427, Ford's 427, Chrysler's 426 Hemi. In the mid to late 1960s, the explosion of the muscle car market saw performance big-blocks fitted to intermediate-size cars. Some used derivatives of the racing engines, but in addition performance versions of former luxury motors were produced.

After the 1973 oil crisis, the days of the big-block in passenger cars were numbered. By the end of the 1970s, they were no longer to be found. However, these engines remained in use in pickup trucks and other non-car uses

[2003DOHC]

I have no idea, but to confuse things a little more I think that I heard that the 351 came as either a windsor or cleveland, and only one was a big block. Please correct me if I am wrong

They are both ford small block engines.

[rocknrod]

It's generally the differences in the Castings. I say this because you can have a 400 c.i. small block and a 396 c.i. big block, know what I mean ?
I'll find the casting measurements, small block and big block::)
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=1><TBODY><TR><TD bgColor=#163d67 colSpan=7>Engine Measurements

</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#808080>C.I.D.</TD><TD bgColor=#808080>Width</TD><TD bgColor=#808080>Length</TD><TD bgColor=#808080>Height</TD><TD bgColor=#808080>Weight</TD><TD bgColor=#808080>Sump Location</TD><TD bgColor=#808080>Starter Location</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#163d67 colSpan=7>Chevrolet</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#163d67>262-400</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>26"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>28"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>27"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>575 lbs.</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Rear</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Right</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#163d67>396-454</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>28"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>30.5"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>29"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>685 lbs.</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Rear</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Right</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Now, the Ford guys are going to have to chime in on the next graph, cause it gets kind of hazy for me.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=1><TBODY><TR><TD bgColor=#163d67 colSpan=7>Ford</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#163d67>221-351W*</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>24"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>29"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>27.5"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>460 lbs.</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Front</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Right</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#163d67>351-400 C/M</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>24.5"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>29"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>28.5"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>550 lbs.</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Front</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Right</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#163d67>429-460**</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>27"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>30"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>29"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>720 lbs.</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Front</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Right</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#163d67>352-427 FE#</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>27"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>32"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>29"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>625 lbs.</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Front</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Right</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#163d67>4.6L SOHC</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>28.7"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>28"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>26"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>600 lbs.</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Front</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Right</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#163d67>4.6L DOHC</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>30"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>28"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>30"</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>576 lbs.</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Front</TD><TD bgColor=#163d67>Right</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

As you see the line between small block and big block is clear when it comes to Chevy. As I said someone else will have to help on the deviding line for Ford.
Hope this helps.

[rocknrod]

Here's another graph from a different source:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR align=middle bgColor=#cccccc><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=middle width=90 height=32>Engine</TD><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=middle width=110>Displacement</TD><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=middle width=50>A

length
</TD><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=middle width=50>B

length
</TD><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=middle width=50>C

height
</TD><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=middle width=50>D

height
</TD><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=middle width=50>E

width
</TD><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=middle width=60>DIST</TD><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=middle width=60>SUMP</TD><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=middle width=75>STARTER</TD><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=middle width=70>OIL

FILTER
</TD><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=middle width=75>WEIGHT</TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD height=24>AMC</TD><TD>304/360/401</TD><TD>28.75</TD><TD>29.25</TD><TD>21.25</TD><TD>29.50</TD><TD>21.50</TD><TD>front</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>right</TD><TD>right front</TD><TD>540/600</TD></TR><TR align=middle bgColor=#cccccc><TD height=24>Buick/Olds</TD><TD>215</TD><TD>x </TD><TD>28.00</TD><TD>x </TD><TD>27.00</TD><TD>26.00</TD><TD>front</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>x </TD><TD>right front</TD><TD>315</TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD height=24>Buick</TD><TD>350</TD><TD>29.00</TD><TD>30.50</TD><TD>21.50</TD><TD>28.50</TD><TD>23.00</TD><TD>front</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>right</TD><TD>right front</TD><TD>450</TD></TR><TR align=middle bgColor=#cccccc><TD height=24>Buick</TD><TD>322/425</TD><TD>x </TD><TD>33.50</TD><TD>x </TD><TD>29.00</TD><TD>28.00</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>left</TD><TD>right rear</TD><TD>685</TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD height=24>Buick</TD><TD>400/455</TD><TD>29.00</TD><TD>30.00</TD><TD>22.00</TD><TD>30.00</TD><TD>23.00</TD><TD>front</TD><TD>center</TD><TD>right</TD><TD>right front</TD><TD>600/640</TD></TR><TR align=middle bgColor=#cccccc><TD height=24>Cadillac</TD><TD>331/390 60-62</TD><TD>x </TD><TD>x </TD><TD>x </TD><TD>x </TD><TD>x </TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>left</TD><TD>right rear</TD><TD>699/720</TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD height=24>Cadillac</TD><TD>331/390 63-up</TD><TD>x </TD><TD>x </TD><TD>x </TD><TD>x </TD><TD>x </TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>left</TD><TD>left front</TD><TD>699/720</TD></TR><TR align=middle bgColor=#cccccc><TD height=24>Cadillac</TD><TD>425/472/500</TD><TD>30.00</TD><TD>30.50</TD><TD>28.50</TD><TD>32.00</TD><TD>28.50</TD><TD>front</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>right</TD><TD>left front</TD><TD>625</TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD height=24>Chevy</TD><TD>262/400 Short WP</TD><TD>26.50</TD><TD>27.00</TD><TD>20.50</TD><TD>27.00</TD><TD>22.00</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>right</TD><TD>left rear</TD><TD>575</TD></TR><TR align=middle bgColor=#cccccc><TD height=24>Chevy</TD><TD>262/400 Long WP</TD><TD>27.88</TD><TD>28.38</TD><TD>20.50</TD><TD>27.00</TD><TD>22.00</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>right</TD><TD>left rear</TD><TD>575</TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD height=24>Chevy</TD><TD>348/409</TD><TD>x </TD><TD>34.50</TD><TD>x </TD><TD>32.00</TD><TD>28.50</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>right</TD><TD>left rear</TD><TD>685</TD></TR><TR align=middle bgColor=#cccccc><TD height=24>Chevy</TD><TD>396/454 Short WP</TD><TD>30.50</TD><TD>30.50</TD><TD>23.50</TD><TD>33.00</TD><TD>27.00</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>right</TD><TD>left rear</TD><TD>685</TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD height=24>Chevy</TD><TD>396/454 Long WP</TD><TD>32.00</TD><TD>32.00</TD><TD>23.50</TD><TD>33.00</TD><TD>27.00</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>rear</TD><TD>right</TD><TD>left rear</TD><TD>685</TD></TR><TR align=middle bgColor=#cccccc><TD height=24>Ford</TD><TD>221/302</TD><TD>27.00</TD><TD>29.00</TD><TD>22.00</TD><TD>27.00</TD><TD>22.00</TD><TD>front</TD><TD>front</TD><TD>right</TD><TD>left front</TD><TD>440/460</TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD height=24>Ford</TD><TD>332/428FE</TD><TD>30.00</TD><TD>32.00</TD><TD>28.00</TD><TD>32.00</TD><TD>27.00</TD><TD>front</TD><TD>front</TD><TD>right</TD><TD>left front</TD><TD>650</TD></TR><TR align=middle bgColor=#cccccc><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=90 height=32>Engine</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=110>Displacement</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=50>A

length
</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=50>B

length
</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=50>C

height
</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=50>D

height
</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=50>E

width
</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=60>DIST</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=60>SUMP</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=75>STARTER</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=70>OIL

FILTER
</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=75>WEIGHT</TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD height=24>Ford</TD><TD>427 SOHC</TD><TD>32.00</TD><TD>34.00</TD><TD>30.00</TD><TD>34.00</TD><TD>32.00</TD><TD>front</TD><TD>front</TD><TD>right</TD><TD>left front</TD><TD>680</TD></TR><TR align=middle bgColor=#cccccc><TD height=24>Ford</TD><TD>Flathead</TD><TD>30.00</TD><TD>30.00</TD><TD>22.00</TD><TD>x</TD><TD>26.00</TD><TD>front</TD><TD>front</TD><TD>left</TD><TD>left rear</TD><TD>569</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.carnut.com/specs/side.jpg</TD><TD>http://www.carnut.com/specs/front.jpg</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>

A - Length from rear of intake manifold to water pump pulley
B - Length from rear mounting surface to water pump pulley
C - Height from bottom of sump to highest point of intake manifold
D - Height from bottom of sump to top of carburetor
E - Width outside of valve cover to outside of valve cover
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[TooManyFords]

When dealing with the Ford engines, there is an easy way to tell if it is a big-block or not. You check the bolt pattern for the tranny. The Windsors (221-351W) and the 335 series (351C) are all considered small blocks. In these engines, the small-block C6 will all bolt right up. The FE series, the 335 Series (351M and 400) and all 385 series (429 and 460) are considered big blocks.


Hope that helps.

John

[Shaft333]

And I like to add, (not that I expect anyone to really care here)...
The Pontiac motors aren't big blocks... they're not Chevies... not truck motors.... http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

My time spent working on the Pontiac resulted in many coversations with misinformed people that wouldn't have it any other way. Next time I'm building a Chevy just to avoid those conversations. http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[MarauderMark]

They are both ford small block engines.
and also the 315m which is a small big block..

[sailsmen]

Did Pontiac have only one size block casting?

[TooManyFords]

and also the 315m which is a small big block..No, it is considered a big block because of the tranny bolt pattern. Same block as the 400.

John

[kingsford]

When dealing with the Ford engines, there is an easy way to tell if it is a big-block or not. You check the bolt pattern for the tranny. The Windsors (221-351W) and the 335 series (351C) are all considered small blocks. In these engines, the small-block C6 will all bolt right up. The FE series, the 335 Series (351M and 400) and all 385 series (429 and 460) are considered big blocks.


Hope that helps.

John



Thats what it was; the 351m v. 351c and 351w...i was wrong..again

[Donny Carlson]

What differentiates the 'smallness' with the 'bigness'
If you hear "Awww, isn't that cute" or laughing and pointing, its' smallness.

If you hear "Guard, let me out of here" or eyes bugging and jaw dropping, it's bigness.

[Skiordie53]

I belive part of the difference is in bore and stroke size. if i am correct a 396 bb has a smaller bore and stroke then a 400 sb

[modular46]

and also the 315m which is a small big block..


The 351M is a 400 block with a 351 windsor crank and pistons with very high compression distance.

There once was a conversion to put a 400 crank into a 351 windsor block using appropriate rods (Chrylser I think) and custom pistons.

351C, 351M, and 400 are all "small big blocks"

blah blah blah, I should be in bed.

I once built a "Street Boss 302" using Aussie 351C heads and a 302 windsor block, nice power. Like the 4.6 DOHCs, it was a nice looking engine.

I think the explanation that Small Blocks are bigger than Tiny Blocks works for me. :help:

[FordNut]

This subject is kind of like oil and superchargers.

IMO,
221-302=small block
351w=big small block (taller deck height, wider intake manifold, sb bellhousing)
351c=intermediate (totally different block from sb, but sb bellhousing)
351m-400=small big block (351c block design w/taller deck height, but bb bellhousing)
429-460=big block (new age bb)
352-428=FE big block (older version bb, different bellhousing from new bb)

4.6 sohc=modular 2v
4.6 dohc=modular 4v or modular 3v
5.4 sohc=modular 2v
5.4 dohc=modular 4v (is there a 5.4 3v yet?)

[modular46]

This subject is kind of like oil and superchargers.

IMO,
221-302=small block
351w=big small block (taller deck height, wider intake manifold, sb bellhousing)
351c=intermediate (totally different block from sb, but sb bellhousing)
351m-400=small big block (351c block design w/taller deck height, but bb bellhousing)
429-460=big block (new age bb)
352-428=FE big block (older version bb, different bellhousing from new bb)

4.6 sohc=modular 2v
4.6 dohc=modular 4v or modular 3v
5.4 sohc=modular 2v
5.4 dohc=modular 4v (is there a 5.4 3v yet?)


Except the 351C has smaller main bearing diameter than the 351m/400

[modular46]

This subject is kind of like oil and superchargers.

IMO,
221-302=small block
351w=big small block (taller deck height, wider intake manifold, sb bellhousing)
351c=intermediate (totally different block from sb, but sb bellhousing)
351m-400=small big block (351c block design w/taller deck height, but bb bellhousing)
429-460=big block (new age bb)
352-428=FE big block (older version bb, different bellhousing from new bb)

4.6 sohc=modular 2v
4.6 dohc=modular 4v or modular 3v
5.4 sohc=modular 2v
5.4 dohc=modular 4v (is there a 5.4 3v yet?)

Isn't the 3V a SOHC?

[FordNut]

Isn't the 3V a SOHC?
Good point, I'll have to dig into that a bit and correct my previous post if so.

[FordNut]

Except the 351C has smaller main bearing diameter than the 351m/400
Sorry, I wasn't trying to get into the internal differences too much. But the 351W is another example of this, it has larger journals than the 221-302 sb.

[TooManyFords]

The 351M is a 400 block with a 351 windsor crank and pistons with very high compression distance.
Close, but no cigar. No parts from the 351W and the 351M interchange. The 351M and 400 share the exact same rod and block. 400's have a .5 inch longer stroke with a different wrist-pin location in the piston. Otherwise they are identical. The 351C shares the same heads, cams, valvetrain and distributor and that's about it.

I know these trivial facts because I build 351M and 400 motors for the ford trucks. In fact, here's one now!

http://john.frieltek.com/toomanyfords/f1504x4/img/351M.jpg

This one has the Aussie 302C heads, custom CompCams grind, FMS roller rockers, Mallory Unilite, Edelbrock, Holley and a bunch of other cool parts.

Here's the finished truck for winter:

http://john.frieltek.com/toomanyfords/f1504x4/img/DSC02108.jpg

Cheers!

John

[martyo]

John:

You keep your winter truck in a museum? :confused:

http://john.frieltek.com/toomanyfords/f1504x4/img/DSC02108.jpg

[BillyGman]

I belive part of the difference is in bore and stroke size. if i am correct a 396 bb has a smaller bore and stroke then a 400 sb
The bore and stoke isn't neccessarily always different between small block and big block engines. In addition to the Chevy BB 396 and the Chevy SB 400 that you've mentioned, there's also the case of the Ford BB 352 engine vs the Ford SB 351 engine. It's the size of the blocks and cylinder heads that are different.

Most car manufactures made two different sized engine blocks back in the 60's and early 70's (the one exception that I know of being Pontiac since all their engines were of the same block size back then). Each of the two sized engine blocks received different sized cylinder heads, and in the case of the big block cylinder heads, the intake and exhaust runners were bigger, since the entire cylinder heads were bigger. Therefore the big block cylinder heads often had a greater capacity and allowed the engine to breath better than a small block engine did, even in the case of similar displacements (such as the Chevy small block 400 as compared to the Chevy big block 396) which usually gave the big block engine more power.

But there aren't any small block and big block engines in production cars anymore, because manufactures generally make all their V8 engine blocks in one size now (all small blocks) for their production cars, and to my knowledge, the only way to purchase a big block engine from a car manufacture today, is to buy it through their parts department (such as the Ford 460 engines still being offered through the Ford Racing catalogue).

[TooManyFords]

John:

You keep your winter truck in a museum? :confused:


Doesn't everybody?

:o

[modular46]

Close, but no cigar. No parts from the 351W and the 351M interchange. The 351M and 400 share the exact same rod and block. 400's have a .5 inch longer stroke with a different wrist-pin location in the piston. Otherwise they are identical. The 351C shares the same heads, cams, valvetrain and distributor and that's about it.

I know these trivial facts because I build 351M and 400 motors for the ford trucks. In fact, here's one now!

http://john.frieltek.com/toomanyfords/f1504x4/img/351M.jpg

This one has the Aussie 302C heads, custom CompCams grind, FMS roller rockers, Mallory Unilite, Edelbrock, Holley and a bunch of other cool parts.

Here's the finished truck for winter:

http://john.frieltek.com/toomanyfords/f1504x4/img/DSC02108.jpg

Cheers!

John

You've done several more than I have, but I do remember a difficult conversion of using a cut down 400 crank (counterweight OD trimmed to fit the block) in a 302 to essentially build a "cheap" stroker, Hence, I believed the 351W crank was used in the 351M -- I also think I read it in one of the Ford engine "Bibles". But alas, it's been a while.

I am a fan of the aussie heads, not to mention their motors. Those flat topped valve covers sure clean up the motors.

Life was (is) a lot simler with these pushrods, eh?

[Shaft333]

Did Pontiac have only one size block casting?
Probably the best description is that Pontiac had a large journal and small journal selection.

I don't remember the historical displacements of the blocks that they originated from, but I do know that the 455 and the 400's from the late 60's did not share the same block. The 389-455 were the large journal. The 400 and it's kin (I actually forget which derivatives there were...) were the small journal.

Generally speaking, Pontiacs just aren't referred to as small or big block. I had always called my 400 a medium block. :D

[cyclone03]

Heres my 2 cents worth.

"Big" and Small" blocks really only apply to Chevy's.
First came the small block,a 265 I think.Then the big block 380 or something and big and small only refered to the outside size of the engine itself.

Ford never really called their engines Big or Small.
We had the Flathead,Y block,Challenger V8,Windsor,Cleaveland,Lima,Mod ified,FE.
In Ford speak big and small in a way is slang,but has become acceptable over time.

[BillyGman]

Let's not forget that Mopar also had two different blocks. The 318, and 340 were the small blocks while the 383,413, 426 wedge, 426 hemi, and the 440 were the big blocks.

[prchrman]

Let's not forget that Mopar also had two different blocks. The 318, and 340 were the small blocks while the 383,413, 426 wedge, 426 hemi, and the 440 were the big blocks.

Except there were 2 different 318s...one a small block (later models) and one a big block (earlier models)...confused...outside dimensions were different...willie

[modular46]

Heres my 2 cents worth.

"Big" and Small" blocks really only apply to Chevy's.
First came the small block,a 265 I think.Then the big block 380 or something and big and small only refered to the outside size of the engine itself.

Ford never really called their engines Big or Small.
We had the Flathead,Y block,Challenger V8,Windsor,Cleaveland,Lima,Mod ified,FE.
In Ford speak big and small in a way is slang,but has become acceptable over time.


I concur!!