Darwin award or liberal making a statement ?

[rocknrod]

Sailboat collided with Bonhomme Richard

By Christopher Munsey (cmunsey@navytimes.com?subject =Question from NavyTimes.com reader)
Navy Times staff writer




A 34-foot Canadian sailboat collided with the amphibious assault ship Bonhomme Richard in the Strait of Juan de Fuca on the afternoon of Aug.
http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1043783.php
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bonnie Dick is a Wasp class Amphibious assult ship, as large as an aircradt carrier. I was once a CMC on the Essex (same class ship). These ships have a harbor pilot (USCG Approved) onboard when comming into port. I think a sailboat operator would have to do this purposely. JMHO.

[marauder307]

Maybe not Master Chief...some sailboat owners can be inherently dumb.

I recall an incident I overheard on the radio one night when working on a USCG gunboat in GTMO the latter half of 2002. It was sometime around 0300 hours...Port Control's offshore radar picked up a contact out there that was meandering in at a slow bell towards the mouth of the Bay. Turned out to be a private sailboat...took forever to get the guy on the radio. We were just about to go out for the intercept when he finally rogered up, and when he did, we could tell it was an American, but he was---shall we say?---somewhat impaired. Port Control kept telling him to turn around, and he kept saying that he WAS turning around. Turns out he was turning himself around---not the boat!

We were tempted, as Coasties, to go out and get him; our oporders kept us inside the Bay though. Just as well; a 25-ft open gunboat doesn't do so well in the 5-10 footers outside the mouth of the Bay, and even worse in the dark.
The story ended fine; he finally figured out how to steer away, and we went back to being bored and half-asleep.

It doesn't help matters any that the Rules of the Road state that sailing vessels have the right-of-way over powered ones; I'm sure that's what the guy in the Navy Times story musta been thinking. But I don't think I woulda tried to joust with an assault carrier when all I had was a sailboat! Sounds like he's earned a Darwin Award alright....

[Festus]

I'd say the Navy needs to do an investigation and somebody needs to be relieved. This may have been innocent, but it also could have been a repeat of the U.S.S. Cole too.

[rocknrod]

I'd say the Navy needs to do an investigation and somebody needs to be relieved. ......Ya I agree. Like the Sailboat driver;)

[2003 MIB]

This may have been innocent, but it also could have been a repeat of the U.S.S. Cole too.
First thing that crossed my mind.

[duhtroll]

Darwin Awards are for those who die in the "attempt."

This could only be an honorable mention if he were injured. Since he wasn't, we'll just have to call him a dumb*****.

-A

[RCSignals]

Sailboat collided with Bonhomme Richard

By Christopher Munsey (cmunsey@navytimes.com?subject =Question from NavyTimes.com reader)
Navy Times staff writer




A 34-foot Canadian sailboat collided with the amphibious assault ship Bonhomme Richard in the Strait of Juan de Fuca on the afternoon of Aug.
http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1043783.php
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bonnie Dick is a Wasp class Amphibious assult ship, as large as an aircradt carrier. I was once a CMC on the Essex (same class ship). These ships have a harbor pilot (USCG Approved) onboard when comming into port. I think a sailboat operator would have to do this purposely. JMHO.


Quite likely it was done on purpose. BC is after all the birthplace of GreenPeace and it's offshoot organisations.

[hitchhiker]

Sailboat collided with Bonhomme Richard

By Christopher Munsey
Navy Times staff writer




A 34-foot Canadian sailboat collided with the amphibious assault ship Bonhomme Richard in the Strait of Juan de Fuca on the afternoon of Aug.
http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1043783.php
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bonnie Dick is a Wasp class Amphibious assult ship, as large as an aircradt carrier. I was once a CMC on the Essex (same class ship). These ships have a harbor pilot (USCG Approved) onboard when comming into port. I think a sailboat operator would have to do this purposely. JMHO.I had a good laugh at this one.

It is reassuring to know that there is a price to pay for caving into the corporate neo-con money machine...

:D

...nightmares about liberals finally getting the goods on the crooked neo-cons and publicly embarrasing those fooled into voting for them.

I support people not soul-less corporations!

As long as you're on the side of people, you can't be wrong.

:D

[rocknrod]

..It is reassuring to know that there is a price to pay for caving into the corporate neo-con money machine..... getting the goods on the crooked neo-cons and publicly embarrasing those fooled into voting for them.

I support people not soul-less corporations!

As long as you're on the side of people, you can't be wrong.

:DHe won't take his medicine:blah: :loco:

[hitchhiker]

He won't take his medicine:blah: :loco:
Do they make medication to stop some people from seeing liberal ghosts behind every tree?

:P

[duhtroll]

Didn't you know?

Everything bad is the fault of liberals and queers. Liberals and queers.

In a few years there are gonna be thousands of old men in rest homes walking around muttering " . . .damn liberals and queers . . . . . .damn liberals and queers . . . they took my slippers!"

-A

[RCSignals]

Do they make medication to stop some people from seeing liberal ghosts behind every tree?

:P


You must have meant "Do they make medication to stop some people from seeing 'neocon' ghosts behind every tree?"

there I fixed for you.

Hitchhiker, you seem to think "neocon" is a negative word. You really should look it up :lol:

[BruteForce]

damn neocons and breeders. . .

That's got a nice ring to it. :D Anybody seen my slippers? :mad:

[hitchhiker]

You must have meant "Do they make medication to stop some people from seeing 'neocon' ghosts behind every tree?"

there I fixed for you.

Hitchhiker, you seem to think "neocon" is a negative word. You really should look it up :lol:http://www.barbneal.com/graphics/bugsani.gifWhat a Maroon!

http://www.barbneal.com/wav/ltunes/Bugs/Bugs29.wav

:P

[Petrograde]

.... :popcorn:

[rocknrod]

Do they make medication to stop some people from seeing liberal ghosts behind every tree?:PTheir just so fun to make fun of:banana:
Ever thought they'd be the object of jokes ?

[Al Goguen]

It doesn't say if the Sailboat was under power or sail....it makes a big
difference! Don't ya think????:coolman:




Sailboat collided with Bonhomme Richard

By Christopher Munsey
Navy Times staff writer




A 34-foot Canadian sailboat collided with the amphibious assault ship Bonhomme Richard in the Strait of Juan de Fuca on the afternoon of Aug.
http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1043783.php
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bonnie Dick is a Wasp class Amphibious assult ship, as large as an aircradt carrier. I was once a CMC on the Essex (same class ship). These ships have a harbor pilot (USCG Approved) onboard when comming into port. I think a sailboat operator would have to do this purposely. JMHO.

[hitchhiker]

Their just so fun to make fun of:banana:
Ever thought they'd be the object of jokes ?
Yes indeed!

You go Elmer!

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a16/a16-fudd.gifhttp://www.barbneal.com/graphics/dr_elmer.gif
Be Vewy vewy quiet...

I'm a gonna get me dat wascally wiberal!
http://www.barbneal.com/wav/ltunes/elmer/Elmer09.wav
:P

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[sailsmen]

Examples of Liberalism gone wrong are the Public Primary School System, Welfare Prior to it being reformed and the Civil Court System.

[klmore]

Examples of Liberalism gone wrong are the Public Primary School System, Welfare Prior to it being reformed and the Civil Court System.
Amen to that. :bigcry:

I can think of many more.

[hitchhiker]

Examples of Liberalism gone wrong are the Public Primary School System, Welfare Prior to it being reformed and the Civil Court System.

From Dicken's, A Christmas Carol...

...said Scrooge "Are there no prisons?" Are there no work-houses?"

:D

[duhtroll]

Gosh, I hope you guys are going to home school your kids...

because as we all know due to open enrollment and vouchers people are now using state money to send kids to private schools. And even private schools take advantage of government programs.

Unless you are home schooling your own child, (or were home schooled yourself) you are part of the "socialist system."

Every single one of you.

It's fun to bash stuff until you figure out you're a part of what you're bashing.

Every single person here is part of the socialist system in some way. Let's complain about it until they take stuff away from *us*.

"The public education system didn't educate my kid." "I got a crappy education from public schools so they must suck."

Let's not take any responsibility for anything. Let's blame everyone else for our own problems.

:bs:

Oh yeah, and I'm no longer changing the oil in my MM. After all, it's my MECHANIC'S fault if my engine seizes.

-A

[klmore]

Gosh, I hope you guys are going to home school your kids...

because as we all know due to open enrollment and vouchers people are now using state money to send kids to private schools. And even private schools take advantage of government programs.

Unless you are home schooling your own child, (or were home schooled yourself) you are part of the "socialist system."

Every single person here is part of the socialist system in some way. Let's complain about it until they take stuff away from *us*.

"The public education system didn't educate my kid." "I got a crappy education from public schools so they must suck."
-A
I wish we had school vouchers, that wouldn't be a hand out by the government. That would just be getting my own money back from the government that taxes the hell out of me.

My son does go to a private school that doesn't take any federal money. I see the problems in the public education system and I did what was needed to give my kid the best shot possible. I wish it didn't have to be that way, but it is what it is. :)

When I see public school teachers send their own kids to private schools, I can't help but to wonder what is going on? :rolleyes:

[duhtroll]

First of all, I will bet if you dig deeper you will find that even this private school works with some form of federal money. It's very difficult not to.

I suppose also then you will be willing to give up your social security checks?

I would also call public school teachers sending their kids to private school not the norm, since most likely cannot afford them.

Answer this question. In your mind since public schools are a failure, how do we fix it?

I'd love to hear this.

-A


I wish we had school vouchers, that wouldn't be a hand out by the government. That would just be getting my own money back from the government that taxes the hell out of me.

My son does go to a private school that doesn't take any federal money. I see the problems in the public education system and I did what was needed to give my kid the best shot possible. I wish it didn't have to be that way, but it is what it is. :)

When I see public school teachers send their own kids to private schools, I can't help but to wonder what is going on? :rolleyes:

[klmore]

First of all, I will bet if you dig deeper you will find that even this private school works with some form of federal money. It's very difficult not to.

I suppose also then you will be willing to give up your social security checks?

I would also call public school teachers sending their kids to private school not the norm, since most likely cannot afford them.

Answer this question. In your mind since public schools are a failure, how do we fix it?

I'd love to hear this.

-A I agree it is difficult not to take federal money, but it is possible. Many well run private schools have endowments and the parents provide extra money, above and beyond tuition, to run the school.

Yes, I would be willing to give up social security if I could control my money that is withheld, or not withhold at all. I can handle my money better than the government can. :)

The problems with the public schools are almost impossible to list in this limited space, but in my state little of the money makes it to the classroom. How about a law that forces 40% ( or more) of tax money collected and earmarked for education to be paid to teachers or put back in the classrooms. As of right now, I believe, that in most states 17% or less makes it back to the teachers and classrooms. In Louisiana it is 13%.

Like most of the government run agencies, school systems are top heavy with management and weighed down with waste. The typical answer is to throw more money at it, but that hasn't worked well up 'til now. Why not try something new?

The good teachers need to be developed and the bad ones fired. The teachers unions have made that next to impossible.

Most of all people need to be accountable for their kids. Many people think of school as a babysitter and dump the troubled kids on the teachers, then take away a teachers right to punish the bad ones. If certain kids act up and cause trouble throw them out, period.

Public education is what made this country great, but we have fallen behind because everyone wants to feel good about it. I don't think education is a right, I think it is an honor to be earned. If others don't feel that way then their kid can flip burgers for all I care.:eek:

Ok I will step off my soap box now.

:soap:

[sailsmen]

In Orleans Parish the average private school tuition is $2,500 vs $8,000 for public school.

Up until No Child Left Behind there was very little accountability. As in testing to measure. Before our state recently implemented leap testing there was no accountability.

The teachers union has fought every reform, even the local public university taking over one of the worst schools.

The largest group of private schools has adivsed they would take all children with a voucher.

It is very sad the Valedictorian of her senior class failed an 8th grade level test. :cry:

The answer is to allow competition for students by issuing vouchers.

[duhtroll]

I agree it is difficult not to take federal money, but it is possible. Many well run private schools have endowments and the parents provide extra money, above and beyond tuition, to run the school.

What about people who do not have money? This is not a "one size fits all" deal. Those who can't afford vastly outnumber those who can.

You're not suggesting turning their kids out on the street, right?


The problems with the public schools are almost impossible to list in this limited space, but in my state little of the money makes it to the classroom. How about a law that forces 40% ( or more) of tax money collected and earmarked for education to be paid to teachers or put back in the classrooms. As of right now, I believe, that in most states 17% or less makes it back to the teachers and classrooms. In Louisiana it is 13%.

Huh? In Cedar Falls, (where I live, not where I teach) salaries are over 70% of expenditures. Where I teach, it's over 60% (smaller district).

So no, I would not be in favor of that law. And last I checked Iowa was ranked 37th in teacher salaries.


Like most of the government run agencies, school systems are top heavy with management and weighed down with waste. The typical answer is to throw more money at it, but that hasn't worked well up 'til now. Why not try something new?

The good teachers need to be developed and the bad ones fired. The teachers unions have made that next to impossible.

Government does NOT run schools. The only thing they decide is how much money we get. Unless you're going to count NCLB (which is really just another set of hoops to jump through and has NOTHING to do with what our kids actually learn). While management salaries are higher, they still do not match management salaries in any other profession, and gievn the choice, I would not take the job of superintendent of schools. Waayyyy too much hassle for me. Maybe my last year or two of teaching. They bascially live at the school -- at least in the 3 districts in which I have taught.


Most of all people need to be accountable for their kids. Many people think of school as a babysitter and dump the troubled kids on the teachers, then take away a teachers right to punish the bad ones. If certain kids act up and cause trouble throw them out, period.

Here is where we agree, but this is not a problem with education. It is a problem with our legal system. Think we don't want to kick them out?

Schools cannot afford the legal fees.


Public education is what made this country great, but we have fallen behind because everyone wants to feel good about it. I don't think education is a right, I think it is an honor to be earned. If others don't feel that way then their kid can flip burgers for all I care.:eek:

Again, here we agree, but the problem lies outside the classroom door.

-A

[klmore]

What about people who do not have money? This is not a "one size fits all" deal. Those who can't afford vastly outnumber those who can.

You're not suggesting turning their kids out on the street, right?



Huh? In Cedar Falls, (where I live, not where I teach) salaries are over 70% of expenditures. Where I teach, it's over 60% (smaller district).

So no, I would not be in favor of that law. And last I checked Iowa was ranked 37th in teacher salaries.



Government does NOT run schools. The only thing they decide is how much money we get. Unless you're going to count NCLB (which is really just another set of hoops to jump through and has NOTHING to do with what our kids actually learn). While management salaries are higher, they still do not match management salaries in any other profession, and gievn the choice, I would not take the job of superintendent of schools. Waayyyy too much hassle for me. Maybe my last year or two of teaching. They bascially live at the school -- at least in the 3 districts in which I have taught.



Here is where we agree, but this is not a problem with education. It is a problem with our legal system. Think we don't want to kick them out?

Schools cannot afford the legal fees.



Again, here we agree, but the problem lies outside the classroom door.

-A
Since you are in the teaching profession, what do you think should be done to help the education sustem? Do you think it is fine as it is?

[duhtroll]

And here's my rant on vouchers:

Let's say every school in the country used vouchers. Simplified, of course.

School A becomes a "school in need of assistance" (Pres. Bush, NCLB)

50% of the parents of School A enroll their kids (higher achieving students) in School B, which has higher marks. School B obviously has better teachers. (which is BS for about 50 different reasons, most of them dealing with aggregate income in the district)

School A closes due to lack of funds, failing scores, lack of support, etc.. Kids are sent to surrounding districts. Busing becomes a nightmare.

Now School B gets the influx of all of those students as well as hires new teachers. School B revels in it's newfound child dollars.

Unfortunately, the remaining underachievers from School A (which has now closed) are also now enrolled at School B, and drag *their* scores down.

50% of parents in School B then enroll their children in School C.

Oh, forgot to mention that any school with a high number of special ed. students is officially screwed, because their scores count too under NCLB.

No Child Left Behind has done little for accountability so far. Those classes of students who were at or above average will continue to be at or above average, and those that are not will do nothing but teach to the achievement tests. Kids will learn actually LESS than they did before because now all they are doing are memorizing facts for the testing. It was said in so many words in our inservice last week. And no, our district is not under the bar-- yet.

And since when does public school cost money for tuition? Having a tuition of $8000 means the "public" schools are defnitely *not* funded by taxes.

As for the tests themselves, they are designed to produce an average of 50%. When the students get brighter they make the tests HARDER, as they have been doing for years, at least in Iowa.

Go take a state test for 8th grade yourself. They are doing stuff we didn't do until high school. Tests are different nowadays.

The unions fought NCLB because it does nothing for the students in favor of a worthless test score. We call NCLB "no child gets ahead," because now the overachievers are left alone, while teachers spend 100% of their time trying to bring up low scores.

I think your state's teachers might disagree with you that there was "no accountability" before NCLB. It just wasn't GW's kind of accountability (and remember, this is a man who while Gov. of TX ruined their educational system - go check the rankings and how they fared while he was in office)

Saying to teachers "your students just don't have any accountability" basically says "you're a poor teacher." I'm sure they would agree with you . . ..

Competition, as you say, leaves the lower scoring children behind.

Education is a have vs. have not argument. Those who have just don't understand why those who have not can't achieve high marks. And frankly, I don't expect anyone on this board to understand that. I'm sure there are a few here who know what it's like to really struggle, but they are in a vast minority of MM.net.




In Orleans Parish the average private school tuition is $2,500 vs $8,000 for public school.

Up until No Child Left Behind there was very little accountability. As in testing to measure. Before our state recently implemented leap testing there was no accountability.

The teachers union has fought every reform, even the local public university taking over one of the worst schools.

The largest group of private schools has adivsed they would take all children with a voucher.

It is very sad the Valedictorian of her senior class failed an 8th grade level test. :cry:

The answer is to allow competition for students by issuing vouchers.

[duhtroll]

If you don't understand why educators resent the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND
ACT, this may help. If you do understand, you'll enjoy this analogy.

This was written by John S. Taylor, Superintendent of Schools for the
Lancaster County, PA School District. (Be a friend to a teacher and
other professionals who work in schools. Pass this on.)

The Best Dentist ---"Absolutely" the Best Dentist

My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget checkups.
He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and
I've got all my teeth, so when I ran into him the other day, I was eager to
see if he'd heard about the new state program. I knew he'd think it was
great.

"Did you hear about the new state program to measure effectiveness of
dentists with their young patients?" I said.

"No," he said. He didn't seem too thrilled. "How will they do that?"

"It's quite simple," I said. "They will just count the number of
cavities each patient has at age 10, 14, and 18 and average that to
determine a dentist's rating. Dentists will be rated as Excellent, Good,
Average, Below average, and Unsatisfactory. That way parents will know
which are the best dentists. It will also encourage the less effective
dentists to get better. Poor dentists who don't improve could lose their
licenses to practice."

"That's terrible," he said.

"What? That's not a good attitude," I said. "Don't you think we should
try to improve children's dental health in this state?"

"Sure I do," he said, "but that's not a fair way to determine who is
practicing good dentistry."

"Why not?" I said. "It makes perfect sense to me."

"Well, it's so obvious," he said. "Don't you see that dentists don't all
work with the same clientele; so much depends on things we can't
control. For example, I work in a rural area with a high percentage of
patients from deprived homes, while some of my colleagues work in upper
middle class neighborhoods. Many of the parents I work with don't bring
their children to see me until there is some kind of problem; I don't
get to do much preventive work. Also," he said, "many of the parents I serve
let their kids eat way too much candy from an early age, unlike more
educated parents who understand the relationship between sugar and decay. To top it all off," he added, "so many of my clients have well water which is
untreated and has no fluoride in it. Do you have any idea how much
difference early use of fluoride can make?"

"It sounds like you're making excuses," I said. I couldn't believe my dentist would be so defensive. He does a great job.

"I am not!" he said. "My best patients are as good as anyone's, my work
is as good as anyone's, but my average cavity count is going to be higher
than a lot of other dentists because I chose to work where I am needed
most."

"Don't get touchy," I said.

"Touchy?" he said. His face had turned red and from the way he was
clenching and unclenching his jaws, I was afraid he was going to damage his
teeth.

"Try furious. In a system like this, I will end up being rated average,
below average, or worse. My more educated patients who see these ratings
may believe this so-called rating actually is a measure of my ability and
proficiency as a dentist. They may leave me, and I'll be left with only
the most needy patients. And my cavity average score will get even
worse. On top of that, how will I attract good dental hygienists and
other excellent dentists to my practice if it is labeled below average?"

"I think you are overreacting," I said. "'Complaining, excuse making and
stonewalling won't improve dental health'...I am quoting from a leading
member of the DOC," I noted.

"What's the DOC?" he asked.

"It's the Dental Oversight Committee," I said, "a group made up of
mostly lay persons to make sure dentistry in this state gets improved."

"Spare me," he said, "I can't believe this. Reasonable people won't buy it," he said hopefully.

The program sounded reasonable to me, so I asked, "How else would you
measure good dentistry?"

"Come watch me work," he said. "Observe my processes."

"That's too complicated and time consuming," I said. "Cavities are the
bottom line, and you can't argue with the bottom line. It's an absolute
measure."

"That's what I'm afraid my parents and prospective patients will think.
This can't be happening," he said despairingly.

"Now, now," I said, "don't despair. The state will help you some."

"How?" he said.

"If you're rated poorly, they'll send a dentist who is rated excellent
to help straighten you out," I said brightly.

"You mean," he said, "they'll send a dentist with a wealthy clientele to
show me how to work on severe juvenile dental problems with which I have
probably had much more experience? Big help."

"There you go again," I said. "You aren't acting professionally at all."

"You don't get it," he said. "Doing this would be like grading schools
and teachers on an average score on a test of children's progress without
regard to influences outside the school, the home, the community served and
stuff like that. Why would they do something so unfair to dentists? No one
would ever think of doing that to schools."

[marauder307]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Hey fellas....can we hold this thread in the road?

The subject was a dumb blowboat owner/operator---and "dumb" seems to precede "blowboat owner"---I should know, I've rescued enough of 'em in my CG time---who apparently thought he was the second coming of Don Quixote and tried to tilt with an assault carrier. Whether or not he did this on purpose---hell, I don't know. Who knows anything about the mind of sailboat owners? Whatever the case, out of respect to the MCPO, I'd really like to see this thread stay on-topic here.

As to the state of education in this country, I can honestly say after two college degrees (a B.A. from U of AL and a M.A.S. from ERAU), the quality of college education, and the high school prep leading up to it, just plain blows dogballz in this country. If any of you want to take up the subject with me, feel free to drop me an email---certainly I'll be receptive and most happy to take it up with you .

So, rocknrod...what was the aftermath of this whole thing? Did we shoot the sailboat, or what?

[duhtroll]

Sure. Let's let teachers decide what's best for their students. After all, we are the experts, not the poiliticians.

But the polis do decide, and it's that simple. As long as non-educators decide what's best for education, it will continue to degrade.

As teachers, we'd love to "set our own prices" like every other profession out there (outisde of state employees - props to all of the LEOs and Firefighters out there who are under the same umbrella of taxpayers deciding what we should make). But it doesn't work that way.

If we only educate those who can pay for it, we will become a third world country within 20 years.

SO I get a bit miffed when people complain about their tax dollars going to education. Is this country somewhere you REALLY want to live once it gets to the point where only those who can afford an education (privatization) can get one?

Do you want this country to be 70% slum and 30% affluent?

No, my friends. You WANT to help pay for your neighbor kids' education. It makes YOUR country a better place to live. If you don't want to, then you are saying you want that kid who just lost his chance for an education to be stealing your rims at night, because that's where he is going once he has nothing else to do and doesn't know any better.

-A


Since you are in the teaching profession, what do you think should be done to help the education sustem? Do you think it is fine as it is?

[duhtroll]

There are reasons it's getting worse, but they are outside education. Like teachers getting sued for LOW GRADES for Christ's sake. Teachers getting evaluated by how many of their kids graduate, and their GPAs. The list goes on and on.

The problems in education are not because of education. They were applied *to* it.

Sorry, the thread's derailed, but I'm an educator. It's what I do. It doesn't stop when I get home.

I'm sorry your education was so poor. You have obviously done quite poorly for yourself. ;)

-A


:confused: :confused: :confused:

Hey fellas....can we hold this thread in the road?

The subject was a dumb blowboat owner/operator---and "dumb" seems to precede "blowboat owner"---I should know, I've rescued enough of 'em in my CG time---who apparently thought he was the second coming of Don Quixote and tried to tilt with an assault carrier. Whether or not he did this on purpose---hell, I don't know. Who knows anything about the mind of sailboat owners? Whatever the case, out of respect to the MCPO, I'd really like to see this thread stay on-topic here.

As to the state of education in this country, I can honestly say after two college degrees (a B.A. from U of AL and a M.A.S. from ERAU), the quality of college education, and the high school prep leading up to it, just plain blows dogballz in this country. If any of you want to take up the subject with me, feel free to drop me an email---certainly I'll be receptive and most happy to take it up with you .

So, rocknrod...what was the aftermath of this whole thing? Did we shoot the sailboat, or what?

[sailsmen]

The public schools are spending $8,000 per student.

I can assure you there was no accountability in the school system in my state because there were no standards to receive a HS Diploma, no uniform testing. As in people who could not perform basic addition or read a basic fast food job application were receiving HS Diplomas. If they are memorizing facts they are learning how to read, something too many could not do before.

NCLB does impose a standard, it's how the real world works.

The good teachers and good students will bring the scores up. Competition improves everybody and a lack of competition hurts everyone.

[duhtroll]

The public schools are spending $8,000 per student.

Ah yes. Much different - thanks for the clarification. Here in IA I believe it is somewhere around $7000 per student.


I can assure you there was no accountability in the school system in my state because there were no standards to receive a HS Diploma, no uniform testing. As in people who could not perform basic addition or read a basic fast food job application were receiving HS Diplomas. If they are memorizing facts they are learning how to read, something too many could not do before.

There are probably examples like this in every profession - people who are wildly incompetent being given a rubber stamp, or a promotion, or a raise, etc.. This does not mean there is no accountability for schools. When people speak of schools very rarely do they speak of a school's good points, only the bad ones (unless you are Susie's dad and are beaming over last night's soccer goal). I suppose it's as it goes with everything.

Colleges started this one, but this is just my opinion. In admission requirements for a long time you had to have an ACT score or SAT score of x (minor requirement), class rank of y, and GPA of z. Well, high schools figured out that the higher grades people got, the more people they got into prestigious colleges, and therefore more PR for the school. So grades were inflated. It still goes on. I wonder how my students ever pass classes because I never hear them tell me they have homework (it's been largely removed as a concept in many high schools, yet we focus on these national tests)

Schools that stuck to real earned grades kept wondering why their kids were getting rejected from universities, and it was because their GPAs didn't "measure up."

This will continue with so-called "accountability testing," because many schools are now just "teaching the test" to students. It's information they will forget as soon as they complete the exams because there is no context and no meaning or association behind what they supposedly learned.

And even with the so-called "accountability testing" there are problems with actually being accountable. There are already scandals with people taking tests for students and changing scores so that schools will not receive that dreaded label.

Well, that and the matter of making the tests the same nationwide. The testing is not the same throughout the country. Each state gets to decide what is the level of competence that each student is required to meet, and they choose their own tests.

So really, the states are being as accountable as they were before. They are just putting a different spin on their numbers (and we all know numbers can both prove a point and disprove that same point).


NCLB does impose a standard, it's how the real world works.

But no, it doesn't. Since the states are in direct control of their standard for determining competence, it really doesn't mean anything. Apologies to Mississippi, but their standard of competence is far lower than most other states. What does this prove? They can now say "more of our students met competency than these 34 states." So?


The good teachers and good students will bring the scores up.

And the bad students and bad teachers will being scores down. It's a wash, and has been for years.

People complain that the "good teachers" leave the profession because they can triple their salary in other professions. But no one wants to pay good teachers what they are worth, so we are left with those who stick it out (as far as money goes) and those that are less competent.

Paying good teachers what they are worth will solve this problem, and I will stake my career on it. But that means more taxes, so the chances of that happening are slim to none.

We do not value education in this country. Everything you hear is pure lip service. Placing a test score on the system will not bring good teachers to the profession. A little respect and competitive salary will.


Competition improves everybody and a lack of competition hurts everyone.

Yep. When the playing field is level. But it ain't. We are rapidly approaching a cliff here, with many experienced teachers about to retire, and very few new ones to take their place. What does this mean? Even the worst teacher gets a job. People without teaching degrees are teaching.

For the forseeable future, we're in trouble.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/08/22/teacher.quality.ap/index.html

-A

[sailsmen]

There are many fine public schools, even in my state.

The public schools in the 2 parishes were I work and live are probably the worst in the country.

Fortunately they have begun to fix them.