Torque Converter Lock up

[BigMerc]

OK everyone who has the Stallion TC chime in here, I have reports the TC locks up intermittantly and takes away the cruising style of driving. I have held off getting it until I'm sure what the deal is, I like the highway cruises about 85-95 MPH for extended periods so I don't want to do something to take that away. Everyone who has the Stallion please give me your impressions

[Matt Johnson]

Where did you get this info? From other MM owners running the Stallion? If not, what vehicles were the owners who shared this info running? I'm curious because this is exactly how the Car and Driver reviewer described the behavior of the TC on the Kenny Brown Marauder-S, although I do not know if KB uses the Stallion in his upgrade or not. On the other hand, Sarge has reported nothing but good vibes with the Stallion, and I trust his knowledge and ability to articulate it without bias more than any professional auto rag reviewer.

The fact that you "have reports" that the Stallion locks up intermittantly at cruising speeds leads me to the bigger issue, though, and that's my own reluctance to mod my MM in any way right now. I have no doubt about some of the performance improvements that can be realized by many of the mods made and touted by other members of this forum, but I feel like I want a bigger body of users running mods for a longer period of time (at least another 10K miles or so) to get a better idea of what surprises, if any, lay in store down the road for various configurations and combinations of mods. The car itself hasn't been around long enough to really see what might pop up after a year or two of daily driving. I really want to juice the low end on this thing, and I've almost called Dennis Reinhart twice to order chips, plugs, gears...and a Stallion TC. But I'm trying to be a little more patient - I'm enjoying the hell out of the car bone stock right now and still have less than 2000 miles on her. (Also, I'm really hoping someone will nail an affordable made-for-the-MM supercharger kit in the next six to nine months and put some tear into it so that I'll be able to dial it all in with one trip to the shop.)

Anyway, interested to hear the responses to this thread...

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by BigMerc
OK everyone who has the Stallion TC chime in here, I have reports the TC locks up intermittantly and takes away the cruising style of driving. I have held off getting it until I'm sure what the deal is, I like the highway cruises about 85-95 MPH for extended periods so I don't want to do something to take that away. Everyone who has the Stallion please give me your impressions

Yes, BigMerc, your reports of a change in drivability are true, but I would not call that a "problem." I find it beneficial, and indication that the Stallion TC is indeed more efficient at all speeds. All one needs to do to address this "problem," is re-educate your toe.

The Stallion TC is more efficient, therefore more sensitive, more responsive to your input. The Stallion TC will lock and unlock with greater ease than the OEM, and once locked up at cruise, say maybe 70 MPH, and you goose it lightly to change lanes, the TC will unlock sooner, and easier. Drive it a while, and things settle down to what anyone would call normal behavior.

Everyday, I climb out of my MM and into a CV/PI, and every time I do, I have to spend a moment refreshing myself on the benefits of rack and pinion steering. It's like that, and it takes about that long, to adjust to the differences.

Yes, Matt, Mensrea has the same Stallion TC, and I think it unfair of the C/D writer to characterize this in a negative light, either he did not spend much time behind the wheel, or, he has his automotive head up his automotive butt with regards to power train mods. That's one of things I try to keep in mind when reading car mags, just because some John Doe drove a Camaro down an alley and got his thoughts published, doesn't mean it accurate 411. It's just his opinion, and once in a while, without the support of the magazine's full time staff. Anyone of us can write a stort article on something automotive, and get it printed in C&D as a guest or free lance writer, and they may publish it just for the entertainment value of someone with their head up their butt.

If you also have the Reinhart chip, you have an option to lock the TC full time. I don't know the efffects of this change, and I am not sure how the car would drive, but Dennis says it's completely driveable. However, that is his point of view based on his driving style and habits. At least, it is an option, and some may favor that over the standard programming.

That's my .02c, as a Stallion owner, others may disagree. Like all these mods, if you're not really seeking the benefits of a Stallion TC, you may find the changes it delivers to the MM disagreeable with your driving habits.

[martyo]

Sarge:

I agree with you. I just got my Torque Converter delivered on Friday. Now I must look for a half-day off to have it installed.

Initially, I sent my chip down to Dennis for reprogramming relative to the intended Torque Converter swap (based on the recommendations of the installer that I use). For reasons that are not important here the change was not made to the programming of the chip as it relates to the Torque Converter. This may be just as well. I spent a lot of time thinking about the issue raised here. Now, I will install the Torque Converter FIRST and THEN decide whether to have Dennis change the programming. I feel that this "one step at a time" approach will be better for me (and probably some of the other guys around here). What have I got to lose? The only downside is that to some extent we are "tuning by mail" sending the chips back and forth to Dennis. But he works fast and with FedEx or UPS on our side things get turned around pretty quick. Dennis can generally turn things around in the same day -- just call and let him know that the chip is coming. I had my torque converter in about four days.

Obviously I will post more after I install the new Torque Converter and then again after the changes to the programming of the chip (if I go that route).

Meantime, last week Dennis upped the idle RPM a little on my chip and it cured the low voltage at idle caused by the underdrive pulleys. However, some may feel that the idle is a little too fast now. I will drive it for a while and decide.

As impatient a person as I am, I am beginning to think that I need to slow down and employ the "one step at a time approach." Patience is a virtue, just not one of mine!

Follow Dennis's guidance and you can't go wrong. Now, we have not only his knowledge but he will have hands on experience with the two Marauders that he just got into his shop.

[area51]

OK i am going to show my ignorance, when you say "lock up" what exactly is that and what happens when it does it at 70 mph?

[prchrman]

simple answer is...torque does not allow any slipping...others will elab on this....

[RF Overlord]

I think Sarge and Marty are absolutely correct...

I, too, want more low-end out of the Blackbird; previously, our only option was the gearing, then we had the TC, now it looks like a couple or three people are building blower setups. I have also heard, from someone's post here, that with the TC, a gear change may not be necessary...so now I don't know whether to do the gears only, the TC only, or both...I guess I'll wait a little bit and see what shakes out... like Marty said, patience is a virtue I have to consciously work on...

God, I love this place... :D

Oh, BTW, thanks to all who did NOT have the patience...your willingness to jump right in and try the new stuff has made it better for us all...

[prchrman]

RFO...I agree...thanks to all the guys that are giving us info on their mods...it truly helps with all the choices out there...I am very satisfied with my handling and also the volume of sound from the exhaust...my only concern has been power...and to me it is beginning to sound like adding a blower,sc or whatever by itself will get me where I want to be...do not want car stiffer or louder...just power...and again thanks for all the info men...obtw is there going to be a national mm meet...

[Beadhead]

Yes, but -- back to BigMerc's initial question, which is one I'd like an answer to, of possible. Does the Stallion TC result in driveability problems at crusin' speeds. i. e. do you still get a smooth highway ride after installation, or does the lock/unlock effect result in a 'jerky' ride? Opinions, anyone? Thanks.

[beemer]

RF, I'm with ya. My thoughts are leaning heavily towards blower kit once they are available. I'm a highway kind of guy, really not concerned about 1/4 mile times. IMHO, 3.55's and blower should yield a large grin when ya hit the pedal. For me, no spoiler, no reflective letters in the bumper cover....I'm waiting to replace the speakers when I find time, and have the windows tinted. I'm also seriously cinsidering powdercoating the chrome wheels. The full blackout treatment rings my bell. LOL, still waiting to just drive the darn thing! Snowbanks knocked down nicely I found when I arrived home, some good rain coming this week to rinse the salt off the roads.....life is getting good real quickly now.

Best,

Paul:D

[RF Overlord]

Amen, Paul...

My high-tech Brookstone wireless indoor-outdoor thermometer said it got into the 70's today (in the sun), and looks to be decent for the next 4 or 5 days...maybe now I can keep the damn car clean for more than 1 day in a row...

to paraphrase the recent movie: "Zaino, wherefore art thou?"

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Beadhead
Yes, but -- back to BigMerc's initial question, which is one I'd like an answer to, of possible. Does the Stallion TC result in driveability problems at crusin' speeds. i. e. do you still get a smooth highway ride after installation, or does the lock/unlock effect result in a 'jerky' ride? Opinions, anyone? Thanks.

Bead...Asked and answered, k? Please read many other threads on this? Meanwhile...

The Stallion TC will change the way your MM feels to you, whether on the highway, or, driving across town.

If I had to guess, the Stallion TC doubles the forward movement efficiency of your MM over any other TC available right now, which also means that it is more sensitive to your input, and more responsive to your command. It's also the most expensive mod you have at your disposal to date. Money being a strong factor to consider for most of us, how fast do you want to go?

How driveable this TC is on the street, is reserved for your opinion. How pleasant this driving will be to you, is also reserved for your opinion.

One...One C/D driver/writer commented poorly, and I say poorly because it's obvious he didn't drive the sample KB-S MM very much, or very long. As a visitor to this special driver's seat, he walked away less informed, and reported that. How sad.

Is this lock-unlock thing a "problem"? Well, no, it's not a problem.

Will it cause a jerky ride? Well, no...ah, yes, ah, no...Umm...

Once the Stallion TC is installed, you will have more control over the car's natural power. You'll get more forward movement with less throttle. You'll save gas, until you become a junkie to the throttle response. You'll get more fun per gallon, and come to burn more gallons chasing that fun.

If the Stallion is your only mod, you will still love the performance boost. If not, you will love it even more. remember, more efficiency requires more control, and you will have to learn to drive your MM all over again. But, once you do, no jerky, no "problems," no driveability issues to speak of. The Stallion will lock and unlock as you command it too, but giving that command, is where you will need to practice your self control.

If you have a Reinhart chip, you also have an option to lock the converter full time, and before you ask, Bead, I have no idea what that feels like. I haven't explored it yet. However, it is an option now, and that remains an improvement over the previous "no options" state of MM development.

Perhaps others can elaborate more, I'm outta words.

[martyo]

Sarge you're killing me (in a good kinda way -- I am so jealous). I have that purple beauty (the Stallion TC for those of you who haven't seen it) sitting in a box just begging to be installed. I just need time......

Meanwhile, I had a great conversation yesterday with Dennis. We spent a fair amount of time going over where I am with the car and discussing what is next. Dennis can and will guide us on changes to tweak the performance of the chip. I decided that I will install the T/C and use the chip in its present form. Then I will work with Dennis to further dial in the chip regarding locking up the T/C. At first I was so anxious that I wanted to run out and do everything all at once. Now I realize, as Sarge is indicating here, one step at a time and I can learn the beauty of this car and how best to unleash it.

I know everyone has ben patting Sarge on the back over and over because he is "The Man" and he gives wise advice. Well, I am here to tell you that there is more truth to this then you know. Sarge has the patience to tell you guys the truth. And, if the Truth doesn't set you free (where does that come from again??), at least it will make you faster!

BTW, Sarge I assume from the time of your post, you had a great St. Patrick's day! We had a little parade and some great weather here in NY.....

[prchrman]

Martyo...where is your report on the meet...did not find one in the threads...how was the weather...
wranglin

[martyo]

Willie:

I can't speak for the other 13 Marauders and 14 guys that were there, but I had a great time. Spent so much time getting to know this great group that I barely had time to look at anyone's cars. Ok, well I did drool on Effster's blue paint.....

Look here: http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1229

and here: http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2044

[mensrea]

Hello everyone, I am back in the states finally, and just in time.

I want to add that when Car and Driver tested my Marauder, it had the "proto-type" TC from PI, and we were running synthetic trans oil. After noticing some issues with the lock up, the owners of Precision Industries came up to Kenny's shop and spent some time with Kenny and his crew to try and resolve the issue. They suggested we run ONLY Mercron, and they also suggested some programming mods. You will notice that AutoWeek did not mention anything negative about the converter, they got it after the tweaking.

I am happy to state that I am comfortable with the converter now, and if Car and Driver drove it today, they would not notice the same lock up. The fact that the owners of PI took such an interest in the Marauder tells me that they are going to stand behind their product, no matter what. Also, remember you get a "modification" to the converter for free after you buy it should resolve any issues you have.

I still stand by my original position as well as SSMokems posted months ago, you need this converter.



Initial discussions around the PI converter (http://www.mercurymarauder.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=89&highlight=dyno+numbers)

[Beadhead]

Thanks for your kind responses, guys. Looks like the Stallion TC is on the list for a July install. :beer:

[MitchB]

Lockup has nothing to do with the oil you use. It is controlled by the computer. If you are experiencing a change in the lockup schedule after changing the converter, it appears you have to modify the EEC calibration. This should really be no big deal for someone who knows how to do this. Only a few parameters the EEC sees will change with a higher stall converter.

Mitch

[RCSignals]

that makes sense Mitch, but if they experienced a change after change of fluid, it must have been a factor in this case

[mensrea]

The fluid did make a difference in my car...

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by mensrea
The fluid did make a difference in my car...


As someone mentioned in another thread, it would appear the MM PCM uses some pulse-width modulation to apply the torque converter clutch. That just means that instead of an OFF-ON scenario (as when you drop a clutch on a manual transmission), it's more of an OFF-ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON....OFF-ON until it decides it's time to leave the clutch ON. This results in a smoother TCC application, since the computer cannot 'slip' the clutch as a human being would do to a manual transmission clutch to avoid a jerky application.

These clutches within an automatic transmission and torque converter are submerged in transmission fluid. The purpose of the transmission fluid is not only to lubricate but is also the fluid used by the pump to apply pressure to the various actuators of the clutches and internal friction bands. Lastly, it also serves to keep the clutches and bands 'grippy' by soaking them thoroughly.

I can see where different fluids would result in different clutch feel. The PCM still does its OFF-ON-OFF-ON....etc. as it's always been programmed to do, but the clutches will grab differently. This is probably more noticeable on an aftermarket high stall converter since the rate of slip may be greater at the point of TCC lockup than on a stock converter.

ie. during normal driving, the TCC may lockup when the input/output speeds are 2300/1800 respectively, but the high stall converter may lock up in a 2800/2000 scenario, in normal driving.

[MitchB]

Slipping the converter clutch has been a strategy used by Ford. I do not know about the MM, but it is probably used here as well. As it was explained to me, under cartain conditions where acceleration is called for, you can either downshift or slip the converter. Ford chose the latter in some cases. Nonetheless, this can all be changed. Jerry or Dennis can change your EEC calibration so your converter will be either open or closed. Pulsewidth modulating your converter is not good. I've also noticed the trans is quick to upshift, but slow to downshift. This was done to avoid EPA's gas guzzler penalties. This can be changes as well.

Mitch

[frdwrnch]

Probably the best single noticable (in everyday driving) improvement from the Rienhardt chip is the shift tables, which is the parameters dictating when and how hard to shift. In stock form my MM had excessive converter duty cycling which made it feel like it was hunting for a gear in certain conditions. Now the shifts are firm and on time and it seems to hold second gear longer. I am very pleased with this aspect of the chip.

[SergntMac]

I'm really glad to see this thread revived, I've got some interesting news about the Stallion TC.

Dennis Reinhart made special arrangements for me to attend the Team Ford Power Tune held near Chicago over this past weekend. I met up with Jerry and Pete in Wauconda, IL., and they completed a number of adjustments to my RPC and Stallion. I'll have more on this event posted in another thread later today, I'm still writing it. But, for now, this may be helpful to you.

The Stallion TC is one terrific mod, it restores a lot of lost power and it's much lighter than the OEM TC. From the factory, it comes with a 2800 stall and "unlocked," which means that every time you take your foot off the gas, the trans slips, and allows the motor to drop RPMs. This is a gas saving feature, but it becomes a PITA when combined with other mods, and driven under certain conditions.

Case in point; On a recent road trip, I was hooked up with a line of cars with a 90 MPH pace. I've got 4:10s in the back, and the car was in perfect tune for this "cruise," and her newly discovered "sweet spot." When I felt I was drifting too close to the car in front of me, I would pull up on the gas, and the trans would unlock. Now I'm coasting, no drag on the motor at all, and this actually caused me to creep closer and close the gap, rather than drop back, when traveling down even slight inclines. Not good, and when I would apply the gas, the motor would roam 600-800 RPM higher before locking up again, and sometimes with a notable thunk. The guy behind me must have cursed me a dozen times as I tapped my brakes.

Jerry said "no problem" and in a few key strokes, it was fixed. Now I'm driving what I call a "manual" automatic, and after 250 miles over the weekend, I wouldn't have it any other way.

No changes to the normal operation of the tranny, just put in drive and go. Go fast, go hard, or just go forward, it's all the same as before. In 3rd gear, OD off, the TC locks-up at exactly 2000 RPM, and it stays locked. Take your foot off he gas, and the car winds down under drag, exactly like you would expect from a manual tranny. Restore gas, and the car immediately picks up and goes, no more slippage. Ditto with OD on, but at 1000 RPMs.

Highway or street, you stay connected to the power, and can use it to your advantage in braking the car. Additional features include neater downshifting. As I just explained, while in 3rd, OD off (which is how I cruise around city streets anyway) you use the natural drag to slow the vehicle. Apply light brake, as if approaching an intersection and the car will downshift to 2nd gear when the speed is appropriate (about 20 MPH I think). If you brake medium to hard, the trans will unlock, the RPMs drop, and you brake without fighting power when trying to stop the car. These downshifts sound really neat through my turbo mufflers, I like this a whole lot.

If you have a Stallion, or want to get one but are heasitant because of it's performance features, the Stallion can be adjusted through Reinhart's chip. He should have my program in his hands shortly, and this can be an optional feature on a RPC. Again, more later on he whole power tune experience, hope y'all enjoyed this.

[RF Overlord]

Sarge:

You must have the best running Marauder on earth by now... :bows:

I am so unbelievably jealous... :help: :uzi:

[Matt Johnson]

Sarge, this is exactly why I'm waiting to mod my MM...you keep tweaking the package so I don't have to. Can't wait to hear more about this...and find out when Dennis has this program in his hands. The adjustments you described are exactly the kinds of behavior I want out of my car and feel sorely lacking as I creep closer to 3000 miles on the ODO.

[Mark McQuaide]

With my stock MM, I get plenty of engine braking on downshifts. Is this TC unlocking and coasting something that started with one of your mods?

[gonzo50]

SergntMac, you make it just that much more easier for me to make up my mind on the MOD's I want, I'm already convinced that I want the chip, gears, plugs, stat, driveshaft and am working on the TC. By the summer months all kinks should be Ironed out and it should be an easy choice. Thanks alot!:D

[jefferson-mo]

Hey Mark I've noticed on my stock MM that it does the coast thing too(in OD).........

as far as driveability--in can't be any worse than stock---mine always seems to be looking for something and it sounds like Sarge's is ironed out pretty well

Also I haven't contacted PI but no one mentions price here..just curious.....

or is it "If you have to ask" etc.?:rock:

[martyo]

Since Mac is saving us all of this money on his learn and burn, he has asked me to set up a trust for his benefit. I have drafted the appropriate trust instruments. Please wire transfer all "donations" to "martyo as attorney for the Sargeant Mac endowment fund". These donations are tax deductible since Sarge is a 503(b) (not-for-profit) qualified organization.

Sarge thanks you in advance for your generous contributions!

[RF Overlord]

ROFL!!!

Marty, how do I get in on that scam...OOPS I MEAN how can I retain your services for similar strictly lawful purposes??

[martyo]

Need I remind you that Sarge carries a gun?

[TAF]

Originally posted by martyo
Need I remind you that Sarge carries a gun?

And you carry Subpoenas...a lethal combination..

[MitchB]

It's really amazing what someone can do for your car when they know what they're doing. Jerry participated in the build of the MM. A friend of his who works for Ford, Jim, is building my 93 twin turbo TBird. Jerry built the trans. Jerry has the unique ability to understand what your individual car needs. And when it comes to trans calibration, no one is better than Jerry. He's like a meastro who knows how to make an instrument sing. In this case, it's your MM!

Mitch


I'm really glad to see this thread revived, I've got some interesting news about the Stallion TC.

Dennis Reinhart made special arrangements for me to attend the Team Ford Power Tune held near Chicago over this past weekend. I met up with Jerry and Pete in Wauconda, IL., and they completed a number of adjustments...

[mensrea]

I have had the Stallion since November, it is totally worth it... I again state YOU NEED THIS.