Torque converter or 4.10's

[Jolly Roger]

Wondering which would offer the best bang, money being no problem.
Just wanting to get the best performance upgrade of the two without taking to much of a gas mileage hit.
I've read on this website that the gears only cost about 2 miles per gallon decrease in mileage.
So what about a stallion converter?
What kind of a mileage decrease would I see, if any?
When I say money being no problem, I mean that I could buy the gears and pay to have them installed or I can buy the converter and install it myself.
I think the end investment will come out roughly the same.
Thanks in advace for your opinions.:)

[BillyGman]

Ofcourse with the gears you would also need a handheld tuner with the program for correcting the shift points and the speedometer error caused by the new gear ratio. With the chip and 4.10 gears combined (when my car was N/A like yours is) I obtained a .50 second ET reduction, and from the Stallion Torque converter with a 3,000 RPM stall speed, I obtained a .70 second reduction in ET's. So it was very close to being the same increase in perormance. I also didn't notice any gas mileage decrease with the addition of the torque converter and higher stall speed.

[Jolly Roger]

Ofcourse with the gears you would also need a handheld tuner with the program for correcting the shift points and the speedometer error caused by the new gear ratio. With the chip and 4.10 gears combined (when my car was N/A like yours is) I obtained a .50 second ET reduction, and from the Stallion Torque converter with a 3,000 RPM stall speed, I obtained a .70 second reduction in ET's. So it was very close to being the same increase in perormance. I also didn't notice any gas mileage decrease with the addition of the torque converter and higher stall speed.Thanks BillyGman,
You've given me food for thought.

[ADE 1000]

I've pondered this same question myself. It seems like most people that are running a higher stall torque convertor are also running a different gear of some kind.

I'd be curious to hear the impressions (performance, drivability, fuel economy, etc..) of anyone running the PI convertor with the stock 3.55 gear.

[bigjon]

me too! :)

[HwyCruiser]

Some more food for thought: the factory t/c lockup schedule is horrible for the Stallion stall converter. Back when I was still n/a, I had to reload the factory tune to send the tuner back for reprogramming and I really suffered through it.

[Marauder2005]

Not to steal the post, but BillyG where did you or where can you pick up

a "high preformence" TQ? .70 sounds tempting :)

[shakes_26]

Stock gears with a PI stallion 3K stall, and Lidio's NA tune, car runs flat out awesome. Driveability perfect. Mileage doesnt seem any worse around town, I dotn really track it there because, well, basically I hammer it everywhere I go, too many minivan people to deal with.... Due to my er... driving style on the highway, I run the factory tune. Its been the difference between 18mpg (tune) and 21.5mpg (factory), on the highway at cruise of 80-85mph.

[Marauder2005]

Stock gears with a PI stallion 3K stall, and Lidio's NA tune, car runs flat out awesome. Driveability perfect. Mileage doesnt seem any worse around town, I dotn really track it there because, well, basically I hammer it everywhere I go, too many minivan people to deal with.... Due to my er... driving style on the highway, I run the factory tune. Its been the difference between 18mpg (tune) and 21.5mpg (factory), on the highway at cruise of 80-85mph.
So you have the factory tune w/ the High Stall TQ? Good to know :)

[BillyGman]

Not to steal the post, but BillyG where did you or where can you pick up

a "high preformence" TQ? .70 sounds tempting :)I have the Stallion Torque converter. I purchased it directly from the manufacture which happens to be Precision Industries. www.converter.com (http://www.converter.com/) (costs about $700- $800 depending on who you buy it from). Precision Industries garantees atleast a .50 second reduction in your ET's. But IMO even a .70 second ET reduction is only good for the track, and for a street race with that buddy of yours who beat you by one or two car lengths. because with the addition of the Stallion torque converter, now you would be beating him by a car length or two. But it isn't going to make a major night and day difference in the G-force you feel when you hit the go pedal. But seeing is how it merely costs $800, it is a pretty good bang for the buck.

[StevenJ]

The Stallion Torque convertor isn't the only converter that we can use btw. The BM Holeshot 3000 series convertors are just as good and are slightly cheaper. They only cost $650 vrs. $700-$800 you'd pay for the Stallion Torque Convertor. You can find them for sale at Summit Racing. They sell a BM Holeshot 3000 that's compatible with the 4R70W.

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=/egnsearch.asp&N=400004
Here's the link. It includes two convertors, a 2500 rpm stall and a 3000 rpm stall.

Oh yes, since you don't have any mods right now, I wouldn't worry about a gear swap or convertor yet. Get Under drive pulleys first, then the K&N high performance air intake kit plus a tuner! And if you want even more, get a high flow Mustang Cobra twin 65mm throttle body! Also the PHP intake spacer would be a nice bolt on. After you get these, then I'd worry about modifying drive train.

[shakes_26]

So you have the factory tune w/ the High Stall TQ? Good to know :)
Yes, I do, but it was only for the FL to MV3 run and back. The driveability was impaired, if you were crusiing at speed (80mph +/-) and let off the gas, the rpm drop so fast, that you get this surging from 1000-1500 rpm, I lived with it for the trip.

Daily driving, you NEED a tune to make it driveable, otherwise its annoying as hell.

Also a note to agree with BillyGman, you wont be 'amazed' by the TC performance on the street. At the track yes, it will be worth some significant ET drop. On the street, I feel it helps in the midrange, and certainly when passing, the car doesnt kick down as far, it just accelerates.

[Jolly Roger]

Thanks to all,
keep the thoughts coming.:)

[Smokie]

FYI, Dennis is selling PI T/C for $695 plus shipping, don't know if price is good, bad or mediocre, just letting you know.

[Joe Walsh]

I've got an ART CARR 2800 rpm high stall converter with OEM 3.55 gears.
(The 2800 rpm T/C probably stalls a little higher than 2800 because of the higher HP/TORQUE my 5.0 DOHC is making)
After a custom tune with revised shift points and no lock-up until @52mph I LOVE IT!
I've not had a chance to check on gas mileage...but it should have NO effect on the highway when you are cruising with the T/C locked-up.

[BillyGman]

The Stallion Torque convertor isn't the only converter that we can use btw. The BM Holeshot 3000 series convertors are just as good Not from what I've heard from some people who are more serious about racing than I am. But I'm only going on what I've heard.

[SergntMac]

I'm checking in here late, but as I read everything posted to this point, the call seems in favor of the TC over gears, and I agree.

Gears deliver a flat, fixed percentage of improvement that never changes and you can't tune them. There is some flexibility with the TC because you can program shift points, line pressure and other stuff to your liking. This is + #1.

+ #2 is torque multiplication. All TCs multiply torque until lock-up, but brands differ. Some manfacturers don't tell you anything about this. It's been a while since I looked up the numbers, but way back when I bought my first Stallion TC, I made my decision based on the highest multiplication available. You can look this up at Precision's web site.

+ #3 is that it's a smaller (9.5" vs. 11.25") and lighter (by 30+ pounds) unit, which saves parasitic drag in the driveline. The core plate begins life as solid billet, and the Stallion is also available in a triple plate design for higher horsepowered cars.

+ #4 is PI's service. You can send your PI Stallion back to PI for a free stall adjustment, you pay shiping. So, what you buy today as, let's say a 2800 stall, can be changed after you buy a supercharger to a 3500 stall. It's the only TC with forward compatability to accommodate your future growth.

I sent my triple plate Stallion back to PI late last year for a stall change. After 20K miles of supercharged abuse, it was in immaculate condition. Yes, others are less expensive, and may provide equal performance under certain conditions, but none that I looked at back in 2002 could compare with the Stallion across the board. This is why it's so popular among us. Nice that it's on sale now too, thanks to Dennis.

[Jolly Roger]

I'm checking in here late, but as I read everything posted to this point, the call seems in favor of the TC over gears, and I agree.

Gears deliver a flat, fixed percentage of improvement that never changes and you can't tune them. There is some flexibility with the TC because you can program shift points, line pressure and other stuff to your liking. This is + #1.

+ #2 is torque multiplication. All TCs multiply torque until lock-up, but brands differ. Some manfacturers don't tell you anything about this. It's been a while since I looked up the numbers, but way back when I bought my first Stallion TC, I made my decision based on the highest multiplication available. You can look this up at Precision's web site.

+ #3 is that it's a smaller (9.5" vs. 11.25") and lighter (by 30+ pounds) unit, which saves parasitic drag in the driveline. The core plate begins life as solid billet, and the Stallion is also available in a triple plate design for higher horsepowered cars.

+ #4 is PI's service. You can send your PI Stallion back to PI for a free stall adjustment, you pay shiping. So, what you buy today as, let's say a 2800 stall, can be changed after you buy a supercharger to a 3500 stall. It's the only TC with forward compatability to accommodate your future growth.

I sent my triple plate Stallion back to PI late last year for a stall change. After 20K miles of supercharged abuse, it was in immaculate condition. Yes, others are less expensive, and may provide equal performance under certain conditions, but none that I looked at back in 2002 could compare with the Stallion across the board. This is why it's so popular among us. Nice that it's on sale now too, thanks to Dennis.
OK, how about this,

A P.I. Stallion converter or:
Sct Xcalibrator
Steeda U.D.pulleys
Denso plugs
180 t-stat
I'm talking about $700.00 here and I'll still be installing everything myself.
Which way shoud I go, the 4:10's to possibly come later?
Still trying to keep mileage in mind for practicality.

[BillyGman]

I'm talking about $700.00 here and I'll still be installing everything myself.
Which way shoud I go Hmmmm, it sounds to me like you already have your mind made up about that. I've already stated my results and opinions in my previous post. I guess the only thing that I can add is that the U/D pulley set is a very inexpensive mod, and therefore cannot be considered as a bad bang for the buck, however the 10-12 HP gain that you'll get with it won't really mean anything for street driving, and would probably only translate to a one tenth second reduction in quartermile ET's. And the plugs aren't neccessarily a wrong choice either, although sparkplugs won't make any car faster. So the handheld tuner is still the main comparisant to the Stallion torque converter in your example. There's no right or wrong there. Merely a matter of preference. The choice is yours. ;)

[Glenn]

It took me over a year to finally make-up my mind to go with the PI 3000 TC and the 4:10s. The combination on the street and track was just awsome for me. I did not notice any change in driveability, just great acceleration when I hit it. A side benefit was the tremendous tire burning I got from the mods. I remember the first time I really got on it after the TC and gears were installed with a new set of OEM BFG, on a cool morning it ripped 60 of solid rubber and I lifted. Gas mileage after a tune was back to 20 mpg.

Glenn