Removing the front springs...

[Rider90]

I'm considering removing the front springs and chopping a coil, similar if not exactly to what was done by Kenny Brown on the Marauder S cars. After all the opinions given on the Eibachs, I'd rather not go that route. I do not have enough money to spend on the Naake system yet, what other options do I have to lower the car an inch or so? I've heard chopping one coil does not affect the ride.


What are your thoughts on this? And has anyone removed their front springs, was it a PITA?

[dwasson]

I think that you'd better off with the Eibachs than cutting your springs. The Eibachs are calibrated so that the energy needed to bottom them out is about the same as the stock spring. When you cut the stock spring the energy needed to bottom it out is reduced.

[SergntMac]

What are your thoughts on this? The 1x car is the only Kenny Brown build with one full coil. They stopped there, it's the maximum you can take out without causing other problems. The production cars are cut at 3/4 of a coil off the top.

[RR|Suki]

I'd say PITA unless you know someone with a good place to do it. Not something you just wanna wing. Eibachs I thought were like $140, might be worth it, just so it isn't a pain.

[cyclone03]

May I suggest plugging "Cut Front Springs" in the search block at the top of this page?
About 2 pages of pros and cons.
Read Zacks many replyed to thread about half way down the first page.

BTW I cut one full coil and I run the stock rear tire on all fours with no problems.

[Warpath]

Cutting the coil will increase its spring rate and affect ride. Also, you'll be further into the jounce bumper. So, impacts will be harsher.

[Rider90]

May I suggest plugging "Cut Front Springs" in the search block at the top of this page?
About 2 pages of pros and cons.
Read Zacks many replyed to thread about half way down the first page.

BTW I cut one full coil and I run the stock rear tire on all fours with no problems.
Excellent idea, usually I search but I figured this topic may not have been covered. Silly me. Thank you

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8330&page=1

[Logan]

Indeed. Discussed to death. I cut mine a full coil and loved the ride... alot more than the Eibachs.

That being said, if you want Eibach's, I've got a set...cheap.

[Rider90]

That was a good read, Donny, thank you. I would swing the Naake setup if I could but at the moment I cannot. I suppose I'm filling the void by moving on to a different step which could be chopping the coils. I have not made my decision but I DO want a lower stance, I DO want better handling, and I DO want a decent ride. I know every modification I make to my Marauder has it's trade off, and when it comes to suspension it is very difficult to get the best of both worlds.

The Addco bars should be in the mail, if not Friday then by tomorrow, I was thinking that since I'll be under the car maybe I'll drop the back end and lower the front while I'm at it. I'll think about it some more and when I get her on the hoist I'll have a gander at what I have to work with and make a decision.

[juno]

If you drop the spring an inch, start saving for new front shocks/struts as the life will be shortened.

[SergntMac]

Kindly reserve your opinions of my Marauder until you drive it.

Let us agree that changing the front springs (in the method you decide on) will change the way the car rides, and wears, and save the guessing. What is harsh in one's words, is comforting and secure to another, but they are still both sensory based opinions that do not translate well here. Just like we tend to do with mufflers, and asking what a particular muffler sounds like. How the Hell do you get a good answer on that?

Contrary to what has been posted here, my MM suffers no such shock or unusual tire wear, and there is no add-on kit installed to correct anything. What's necessary after cutting springs, or, changing to Eibachs, is a good alignment, balance and PSI, nothing more.

When I bought the 1x, I replaced the tires and shock because of all the abuse the car took in testing, and I wanted a fresh start. Today, I have OEM shocks all around, and about 16K on my front tires, so, anyone visiting with Dennis this weekend, is welcome to inspect the tires and test drive the car. Maybe then, a factual opinion based on first hand experience will be posted.

[Logan]

Damn straight.

[RR|Suki]

Indeed. Discussed to death. I cut mine a full coil and loved the ride... alot more than the Eibachs.

That being said, if you want Eibach's, I've got a set...cheap.
Logan, you have PM ;)

[juno]

Kindly reserve your opinions of my Marauder until you drive it.

Let us agree that changing the front springs (in the method you decide on) will change the way the car rides, and wears, and save the guessing. What is harsh in one's words, is comforting and secure to another, but they are still both sensory based opinions that do not translate well here. Just like we tend to do with mufflers, and asking what a particular muffler sounds like. How the Hell do you get a good answer on that?

Contrary to what has been posted here, my MM suffers no such shock or unusual tire wear, and there is no add-on kit installed to correct anything. What's necessary after cutting springs, or, changing to Eibachs, is a good alignment, balance and PSI, nothing more.

When I bought the 1x, I replaced the tires and shock because of all the abuse the car took in testing, and I wanted a fresh start. Today, I have OEM shocks all around, and about 16K on my front tires, so, anyone visiting with Dennis this weekend, is welcome to inspect the tires and test drive the car. Maybe then, a factual opinion based on first hand experience will be posted.

That's good news.

[Logan]

Why is that puzzling? I had cut coils too and ZERO problems with the ride, alignment and tire wear....




No, Mac, I haven't driven your car, that's true. I can't explain why your car, which has had a coil cut off the front springs, rides as nice as you say and does not suffer inner tire wear on the front tires, given it has stock shocks and no camber kits added.

I do recall reading the writers of the CD article mention the ride as being hard, but then that was the prototype KB Marauder before you bought it and, as you pointed out, everybody has an opinion.

I found the Eibachs, for the most part, to be very firm and I liked the ride. I did not like them bottoming out the shocks, as happened from time to time. I also suffered from front inner tire wear, even with Carfixer's specs, because they couldnt adjust camber to his recommended settings.

Even Eibach admits this as a problem and sells camber kits to fix it:

http://eibach.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.exe/00109.7.7059338358700031659

How your car escapes this problem is puzzling to me, given all the other factors (pressures, alignment, etc) have been adjusted properly as well.

I am happy for you, and have many more enjoyable even wear and fine ride on your car, sir.

I'm still working on a solve for my car, and have been told by techs I trust that the coil overs will have the same problem with my wheels lowered, that camber cant be adjusted to eliminate abnormal inner wear. We'll see.

[Pantherman]

[[QUOTE=Donny Carlson]Puzzling to me because what I've been told doesn't match up with what you are saying. And because I have worn out tires to show for it.

Look, I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I've been givin conflicting information. I WANT to be able to have zero problem with ride, alignment and tire wear.]


Donny, we share your pain, but the truth is that Mac is almost certainly right--and so are you. Every manufactured product is built from components made to specified dimensional tolerances. To reduce all tolerances to zero would raise costs to levels you could not afford. There are lots of parts that affect camber. Lowering your car abnormally increases negative camber. The adjustment slots are there to compensate for variances around the normal mean. Mac has a collection of parts biased toward positive camber. You are on the other side of the curve.

[Logan]

Donny, I hear ya. I had the same problem with my eibachs. Except probably more severe, within 4k miles, my tires were shaved off on the inside.

Once I switched to cut factory coils (I went 3/4 cut now that I think about it), the thing never had any more problem. If I was you, I'd go 3/4 cut, that may just make the difference for you.

[Warpath]

Why is that puzzling? I had cut coils too and ZERO problems with the ride, alignment and tire wear....

As for ride, it may be that the roads were you live are in a lot better shape and smoother than roads say up here in MI. Your roads may not make the suspension travel as much to notice much of a difference in ride.

[cyclone03]

Puzzling to me because what I've been told doesn't match up with what you are saying. And because I have worn out tires to show for it.

Look, I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I've been givin conflicting information. I WANT to be able to have zero problem with ride, alignment and tire wear.

Obviously, if you and Mac have had no problems as well as others, then I need to find somebody to setup my car like you all have.

It's very frustrating to read that somebody has eliminated their abnormal inner tire wear, yet I still live with the problem. I can say, well, it's because they are still a stock setup, and my lowering the car prevents whatever adjustment is needed. Then I read owners with lowered cars (cut springs) have no inner wear problems, and ask my techs about it. They say, no way, your car is still going to suffer abnormal inner tire wear, we have it set to as far as it will go. And, yup, 24 K later the tires have to come off because of abnornal inner wear.

It that's not true, then I've been lied to by at least 4 Ford Master Techs, inculding one who is service manager at the dealership. That's rather hard for me to swallow, especially when I read on Eibach's site, and SPC Performance's Web site http://www.spcperformance.com/ and Hunter's website http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/alignmentsystems/5118T/index.htm about how lowering changes suspension geometry such that abnormal wear can occur.

If, indeed, there is a way to set up a Marauder with Naake QA1 coil overs, lowered to heights the same as Eibachs, and have normal front tire wear and no degradation of handling, I want to know that that set up is, or who or where I can take my car to to have it done. Please.


You can add me to the list of owners with one coil cut from the front springs and no problems with tire or shock wear.The alignment was no problem either afler the factory installed lock plate was removed and disgaurded from the camber adjust bolt.No added parts or kits required.
You must use the correct specs though to keep your tire wear to a minimum.
Zero camber and NO toe out is a good start.
Carfixer posted the specs and thats the way to go.
Don't fall for the "cross camber" "cross caster" drible that some places spew to make up for their lack of skill in aligning your car.
They'll try to tell you,and show you the fancy print out,that says +.5deg left and -.5deg right camber = 0deg camber aint true only ZERO = ZERO in the front end alignment world.
You need to find a shop that will set up your car to spec and not only in tolerence.

[Logan]

As for ride, it may be that the roads were you live are in a lot better shape and smoother than roads say up here in MI. Your roads may not make the suspension travel as much to notice much of a difference in ride.
Indeed. Bloody roads in Michigan BLOW CHUNKS. Holy crap your roads suck. Reminds me of Montreal.

[jakdad]

How about Hotchkis Springs? Don't know if they make them for MM/GM but might be worth a try. I took the Eibachs off my Lightning and replaced with Hotchkis. Much improved ride and handling. Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning Eibach. I feel they do make a good product. This was just my experience with one set of springs on one truck.

[RR|Suki]

Indeed. Bloody roads in Michigan BLOW CHUNKS. Holy crap your roads suck. Reminds me of Montreal. Psst Logan, Sell me your Eibachs ;):D:banana2:

[Warpath]

...Zero camber and NO toe out is a good start.
Carfixer posted the specs and thats the way to go.
Don't fall for the "cross camber" "cross caster" drible that some places spew to make up for their lack of skill in aligning your car.
They'll try to tell you,and show you the fancy print out,that says +.5deg left and -.5deg right camber = 0deg camber aint true only ZERO = ZERO in the front end alignment world.
You need to find a shop that will set up your car to spec and not only in tolerence.

Personally, I would recommend for any vehicle starting at manufacturer's specs because of limit handling / evasive manuever concerns. Also, you need some camber to counter body roll and suspension/tire compliances. But, that's me.

To add to to you're second statement, yes, you need LH camber = RH camber to prevent drift/pulls and to wear both tires the same. However, LH caster does not have to equal RH caster in some cases. In most cases it will. But, sometimes RH caster is set a little higher than LH caster to make the vehicle pull left some and counteract road crown. People sometimes complain that their vehicles pull right. Sometimes its just the road crown. Therefore, making it pull left makes it appear that the vehicle travels straight. This caster offset/split occurs more often in southern states with a lot of rain. Their roads are crowned more.


Indeed. Bloody roads in Michigan BLOW CHUNKS. Holy crap your roads suck. Reminds me of Montreal.

The roads are getting better here - at least the highways - thanks to the Superbowl. It seems like every major road is under contruction.

[cyclone03]

[QUOTE=Warpath]Personally, I would recommend for any vehicle starting at manufacturer's specs because of limit handling / evasive manuever concerns. Also, you need some camber to counter body roll and suspension/tire compliances. But, that's me.

To add to to you're second statement, yes, you need LH camber = RH camber to prevent drift/pulls and to wear both tires the same. However, LH caster does not have to equal RH caster in some cases. In most cases it will. But, sometimes RH caster is set a little higher than LH caster to make the vehicle pull left some and counteract road crown. People sometimes complain that their vehicles pull right. Sometimes its just the road crown. Therefore, making it pull left makes it appear that the vehicle travels straight. This caster offset/split occurs more often in southern states with a lot of rain. Their roads are crowned more.[quote]


My point here is that some shops will use the cross camber calculation to prove the car is in spec.

For tire WEAR negitive camber and any toe out will eat our wide front tires.

I also know the Marauder carries a different camber and caster spec than a Grand Marquise. If you drop your Marauder off you will more than likely receive a GM spec front end.

I do agree that caster offset helps prevent pull,but most OEM's tune the stock as delivered spec in the front end to pull right as a saftey measure to help offset head on collisions when a driver falls esleep at the wheel.

[Warpath]

...For tire WEAR negitive camber and any toe out will eat our wide front tires...

Toe in wears tires too. So does turning, driving, etc. Everything is a compromise. There is no one correct setting. If all a person is concerned about is wearing tires and is not concerned about handling or ride, then 0 camber and 0 toe is the settings they want. Actually, 0 toe may not be exactly right since toe may change to toe out while driving due to the loads on the tire and suspension. However, if you want a "fun to drive" vehicle or a "well handling" vehicle, then you will have to run negative camber and toe not equal to 0.


...I do agree that caster offset helps prevent pull,but most OEM's tune the stock as delivered spec in the front end to pull right as a saftey measure to help offset head on collisions when a driver falls esleep at the wheel.

Huh? Who told you that? I work for an OE and worked on alignment settings for a few years. We never have set specs for sleeping drivers. We minimize complaints about drift/pulls and make sure the number of pulls left complaints equals the number of pulls right complaints.

[bigslim]

Indeed. Bloody roads in Michigan BLOW CHUNKS. Holy crap your roads suck. Reminds me of Montreal.
Why do think I keep the stock springs and shocks on my cars??? I have had a set of lower springs for my PT since May but I keep thinking about the roads here and not so sure I want to do it.

[Agent M79]

1234567890Oh Yeah? Says you!

[BAD MERC]

I spoke in great length and detail of this to CarFixer upon delivery of my tasty 2004 Silver MM (13,900 miles). I was interested in the Eibach kit (which IS on my 1995 Taurus SE) He stated that the kit stiffens the suspension and makes for a sportier and more harsh ride. After being in a lowered Taurus (2.5"f & 1.25"r) for eight years, the Marauder feels like a floating luxo-barge and it is way too soft for my liking. I am cutting three quarters of a coil off at first and trying that. I may take off a whole coil. I like the nose-down "inhaling asphalt" look that my Taurus had. I will submit some photos as soon as the mods are complete.





I'm considering removing the front springs and chopping a coil, similar if not exactly to what was done by Kenny Brown on the Marauder S cars. After all the opinions given on the Eibachs, I'd rather not go that route. I do not have enough money to spend on the Naake system yet, what other options do I have to lower the car an inch or so? I've heard chopping one coil does not affect the ride.


What are your thoughts on this? And has anyone removed their front springs, was it a PITA?

[MarauderMarc]

I have the Eibach kit and I love it. There isnt that huge gap between the tire and wheel well anymore and the car feels like the suspension was tuned up and is tighter. only on HARSH bumps is it choppy, but not the bad choppy that you see in some of those Ricers. I left the rear as it was and the car looks like more of a muscle car now. Ive heard bad things about chopping a coil off...but am not an expert on it. Thats my thought.

[BUCKWHEAT]

I'm considering removing the front springs and chopping a coil, similar if not exactly to what was done by Kenny Brown on the Marauder S cars. After all the opinions given on the Eibachs, I'd rather not go that route. I do not have enough money to spend on the Naake system yet, what other options do I have to lower the car an inch or so? I've heard chopping one coil does not affect the ride.


What are your thoughts on this? And has anyone removed their front springs, was it a PITA?

I've don 20k miles in a stock MM and another 20k miles with 3/4 cut front springs. Look is better cut, ride is better with stock. Handling is no noticeable change to me.