3 More Hours on the Dyno

[tmac1337]

My car was on the dyno today for 3 hours with Scott Beer. On arrival, and as a result of playing with so many tunes, my A/F was 10.1 and the car made 430 rwhp w/ 9 degrees boost with the no ac bay temperature being in the 90's at 1 pm.

The most up to date tunes also incorporate timing reduction features based on AIT. I have been working with Dave at Injected Racing to find a good safe balance on spark reduction from 100-150 degrees AIT. Scott really liked what we have been working on in the tables.

Today some improvements were made to correct the MAF curve and the open loop tables were adjusted to optimise WOT spark at different loads safely.

My current A/F is 11.3 and the car is safely making HP in the 470's without a hint of detonation at 94 degree outside temps, just making 9 PSI. It has been hot as hell in Fl lately so I am real happy with the outcome which got me back to leaner a/f and allowed me to add more spark advance.

If any of you Procharger Guys want to follow suit with some of these adjustments call Dave at Injected up, I've emailed him the tune.

[Cobra25]

Over 470 RWHP, Impressive !

[Smokie]

Congratulations, that is a lot of power, if I may make an observation, the cars that have lost their engines seem to have common trait: over 450 rwhp. I am referring to stock internals.

You might want to consider a safe tune around 450 rwhp and go for longevity, the difference between 450 and 500 hp at the track does not seem dramatic to me.

I congratulate you on your progress and wish many happy safe miles.:beer:

[tmac1337]

Congratulations, that is a lot of power, if I may make an observation, the cars that have lost their engines seem to have common trait: over 450 rwhp. I am referring to stock internals.

You might want to consider a safe tune around 450 rwhp and go for longevity, the difference between 450 and 500 hp at the track does not seem dramatic to me.

I congratulate you on your progress and wish many happy safe miles.:beer:

Oh believe me, I have been thinking a lot about the "safety range". Although I am just a car enthusiast who has only spent a few hours around a dyno, I have never showed up and told my tuner "I want to be in the *** range! Do whatever it takes to get me there!"

I like to know whats happening when the tuning is going on, and Beer is good enough to describe everything and even let me sit beside him while he is changing tunes in the software. The goal the whole time has been to make optimize the tune in a safe range without any detonation that Beer also agrees is safe. The RWHP range for me has been in the 430-470 range on every dyno with this kit. This seems to be the range I end up with after safety is a priority.

The thing is, tuning is very complex as I have come to understand. Tune is only as good as the knowledge of the tuner and quality of the software behind it, IMO. I have had bad tunes as well in which I heard detonation which says "this tune is not right, better luck with the next one!"

Tunes may be good or bad, but the sure way not to blow your motor is to immediately lift your foot off the gas if detonation is heard. This is in terms of detonation, not barring some other calamity from happening, such as possibly a tranee which was referred to in another thread, in which case if such a thing can happen it my happen to anyone near the 400 hp range.

[DEW34]

Oh believe me, I have been thinking a lot about the "safety range". Although I am just a car enthusiast who has only spent a few hours around a dyno, I have never showed up and told my tuner "I want to be in the *** range! Do whatever it takes to get me there!"

I like to know whats happening when the tuning is going on, and Beer is good enough to describe everything and even let me sit beside him while he is changing tunes in the software. The goal the whole time has been to make optimize the tune in a safe range without any detonation that Beer also agrees is safe. The RWHP range for me has been in the 430-470 range on every dyno with this kit. This seems to be the range I end up with after safety is a priority.

The thing is, tuning is very complex as I have come to understand. Tune is only as good as the knowledge of the tuner and quality of the software behind it, IMO. I have had bad tunes as well in which I heard detonation which says "this tune is not right, better luck with the next one!"

Tunes may be good or bad, but the sure way not to blow your motor is to immediately lift your foot off the gas if detonation is heard. This is in terms of detonation, not barring some other calamity from happening, such as possibly a tranee which was referred to in another thread, in which case if such a thing can happen it my happen to anyone near the 400 hp range.
Welcome back Tim its good to see your back and giving us some good info makes for good reading
mike :burnout:

[martyo]

Tunes may be good or bad, but the sure way not to blow your motor is to immediately lift your foot off the gas if detonation is heard.

Just remember, deadly detonation can be present long before it can be heard.

Meanwhile, those numbers are great! Will you be at SSHS5?

[RoyLPita]

Very impressive numbers. Keep up the good work.

[HwyCruiser]

Sounds good Tim, 40 hp sure sounds like a lot to pick up after just tweaking a tune but you were running pig rich if your a/f was at 10.1:1. I wonder if your mas air transfer table got lost while trying out the other tunes?

I'm not looking for anything more aggressive than the tune Dave dialed in on my car in Aug. As a matter of fact, I may bump up to a 3.80 pulley now that the weather has cooled in the Midwest and the tune is running full timing adders. I may even relocate the ic behind the grill until next spring.

Keep up the good work with the on-going search for the perfect tune!

[Rider90]

Scott rocks. I have a small library of tunes he modifed for me and my MM.

[snowbird]

Good news for our species !

Thanks for sharing those improvement with us. The efforts you're continuously making on the tune are awesome.

I just had the plugs changed last week as part of a "lets see whats up inside" and all eights were a happy middle brown color. What a relief.

I also ordered a 380 pulley as part of my winter setup. We'll see how safer it will get with our terrible winters .... Right now it's already 35 degrees in the night while 2 weeks ago, it was still over 80s day time.

Welcome back to the board !:)

[tmac1337]

Welcome back Tim its good to see your back and giving us some good info makes for good reading
mike :burnout:

Thanks, good to be back.

[tmac1337]

Just remember, deadly detonation can be present long before it can be heard.

Meanwhile, those numbers are great! Will you be at SSHS5?

Well, if the engine goes it goes. I'm having a lot of fun with the car so that's all that matters. I have been conisidering a rebuild next year anyway.

I do plan on attending SSHS5 as long as I can get the time off from work. If so I hope to see your car blasting through a lot of Chevy's.

[tmac1337]

Sounds good Tim, 40 hp sure sounds like a lot to pick up after just tweaking a tune but you were running pig rich if your a/f was at 10.1:1. I wonder if your mas air transfer table got lost while trying out the other tunes?

I'm not looking for anything more aggressive than the tune Dave dialed in on my car in Aug. As a matter of fact, I may bump up to a 3.80 pulley now that the weather has cooled in the Midwest and the tune is running full timing adders. I may even relocate the ic behind the grill until next spring.

Keep up the good work with the on-going search for the perfect tune!

Yeah, something got mixed up during all the file transfers, but after doing a lot of experimenting I expected something like that to happen. Scott explained to me by actually running too rich detonation can occur also with the excess fuel, air, and pressure occuring. At least I'm back to a good A/F now. That was responsible for some of the HP, the rest was increased timing.

The way I have this tune set up on a perfect cool day which may never occur here in FL I could have 15 degrees of spark at WOT. You guys up North could realistically see that. I may see 14 WOT for only a few days this winter if I am luck. The good think about this AIT spark reduction is that it works. Take the car anywhere no matter how hot and the spark will get reduced based on AIT. I like this better than having a set spark table across the board which does not account for different temps a user might experience to safely reduce spark.

Going to a 3.80 pulley sounds like a good idea for you to keep it safe. Here in FL Scott was able to get to 9.2 PSI with a 3.70 pulley although I always have seen it up to 7 max while out on the street, usually in the 4-5 range and then the speed is just too fast to get higher.

[MikesMerc]

Those are some good power numbers there tmac :2thumbs:

It looks like the tuning for the FIT cars has really progressed along nicely. I wonder what power you'd be making in colder air. 470 in the hot FL air is outstanding.

[tmac1337]

Good news for our species !

Thanks for sharing those improvement with us. The efforts you're continuously making on the tune are awesome.

I just had the plugs changed last week as part of a "lets see whats up inside" and all eights were a happy middle brown color. What a relief.

I also ordered a 380 pulley as part of my winter setup. We'll see how safer it will get with our terrible winters .... Right now it's already 35 degrees in the night while 2 weeks ago, it was still over 80s day time.

Welcome back to the board !:)

Yup, we are the few, the proud, the Prochargers!

I actually do not think there is anything more I can do with this tune. I love the updated transmission functions. As long as the spark is being neutered when operating under load with heat these cars should hold up. Good to hear your plugs had good coloring, indicates everything is working correctly.

[tmac1337]

Those are some good power numbers there tmac :2thumbs:

It looks like the tuning for the FIT cars has really progressed along nicely. I wonder what power you'd be making in colder air. 470 in the hot FL air is outstanding.

The only way I could know would be to put the car on a dyno in a bay between 60-70 degrees. Down here, that is wishful thinking. Sounds like you Trilogy guys have been improving your tuning over time also. Those numbers some of you guys post, yourself included, are incredible.

When I road tested the car with Beer the cars outside air temp read 98 degrees.

[MikesMerc]

When I road tested the car with Beer the cars outside air temp read 98 degrees.

Man, that's rough. I have to admit, here in MI we are lucky to get the cool spring and fall temperatures. On the other hand, putting the MM into storage for 3 snowy months bites the big one!

[Smokie]

Hey you guys know more about this than I do, if you have your car dynoed on a very hot day, does it mean the results will be lower than on a cool day???

I thought the SAE correction compensates for temperature??? Do I have it wrong???

[tmac1337]

Hey you guys know more about this than I do, if you have your car dynoed on a very hot day, does it mean the results will be lower than on a cool day???

I thought the SAE correction compensates for temperature??? Do I have it wrong???

Smokie, I honestly do not know about that. Perhaps the computer does compensate for temps. Elaborate if you know more. If not I will check on it.

[MikesMerc]

Smokie,

SAE does NOT correct for large swings in ambient temp and the associated density of the air charge.

Bottom line, cooler air temp temps WILL consistently result in more power on a dyno.

Sorry for the OT tmac.

[Smokie]

Smokie, I honestly do not know about that. Perhaps the computer does compensate for temps. Elaborate if you know more. If not I will check on it.
I'll tell you the little I know, the dyno operator is responsible for setting up the SAE correction, it is based on temperature, altitude, humidity; there may be other factors that I am not aware of.

The intent of SAE correction is to compensate for all these variables that affect how much power a car makes, so that in theory a guy in Florida getting his car dyno when it's 95 degrees gets results that can be accurately compared with his counterpart in Michigan doing the same with a temp. of 60 degrees.

Without any correction 500 hp in Michigan at 60 degrees, might read 460 hp in Fla, at 95 degrees.

That is all I know.....;)

[MikesMerc]

I'll tell you the little I know, the dyno operator is responsible for setting up the SAE correction, it is based on temperature, altitude, humidity; there may be other factors that I am not aware of.



They do adjust for that, but it is just not that accurate. There are formulas the computer uses to compensate, but these formulas are generic and not application specific. Air temp and humidity levels affect power output differently for different set ups. Accordingly, the SAE correction is only a ballpark and is typically conservative.

[tmac1337]

I'll tell you the little I know, the dyno operator is responsible for setting up the SAE correction, it is based on temperature, altitude, humidity; there may be other factors that I am not aware of.

The intent of SAE correction is to compensate for all these variables that affect how much power a car makes, so that in theory a guy in Florida getting his car dyno when it's 95 degrees gets results that can be accurately compared with his counterpart in Michigan doing the same with a temp. of 60 degrees.

Without any correction 500 hp in Michigan at 60 degrees, might read 460 hp in Fla, at 95 degrees.

That is all I know.....;)

Sounds good. I send Beer an email this week and pick his brains.

[martyo]

Well, if the engine goes it goes. I'm having a lot of fun with the car so that's all that matters. I have been conisidering a rebuild next year anyway.

That's exactly how I feel about my car! Every time I look at it, I smile so it's all good!!

I know you know what I was saying, but I just didn't want anyone to think they can tune by ear (which is how I did it in high school! :D


I do plan on attending SSHS5 as long as I can get the time off from work. If so I hope to see your car blasting through a lot of Chevy's.

Excellent news! The Diet Mountain Dew is on me! I look forward to meeting you.

[Smokie]

They do adjust for that, but it is just not that accurate. There are formulas the computer uses to compensate, but these formulas are generic and not application specific. Air temp and humidity levels affect power output differently for different set ups. Accordingly, the SAE correction is only a ballpark and is typically conservative.Thanks Mike, would it be the safe for me to presume that since my car was dynoed under adverse conditions (95+ temp/84% humidity) that the power output is likely to be greater under more favorable conditions???

[HwyCruiser]

Going to a 3.80 pulley sounds like a good idea for you to keep it safe. Here in FL Scott was able to get to 9.2 PSI with a 3.70 pulley although I always have seen it up to 7 max while out on the street, usually in the 4-5 range and then the speed is just too fast to get higher.
Since the temps have cooled I'm running a straight 16 degrees of advance with all the adders. I've also been seeing the boost climb past the 10 psi mark. The big problem is traction again. The drag radials aren't holding up at all in the cooler weather. I was cruising around last night, mid-50s outside, and happened to line up against a Z4 at a light. I know, they are turds but their owners don't seem to know that.

Anyway, we walk it out after the green and the Z4 floors it just as we cross the street and jumps past my bumper. So I get a little excited and floor it too. All i hear is "zing-pa-papa-papa-pa" as I light up the drag radials while the engine jumps right into the rev limiter and spanks it a couple times before the trans shifts into 2nd. I continue to hold down the gas for another second or so and let off. I looked in the rear-view and see a smokey haze. :D

That was the first righteous burnout I've done on the street because I usually tend to stay off the the rev limiter when I can help it. Since I can't seem to curb my enthusiasm for WOTs, I hope the 380 pulley will pacify my need to speed while being a little more mindful of the powertrain.

BTW, Diablo had nothing to do with the Procharger that just lost a motor. He had just gotten the car tuned with "the other" tuning software. I didn't know if you knew that.

[maraudernkc]

Tim, you have gone to no end for the perfect tune and Scoot Beer at Daiblo has delivered once again.

Scott continues to amaze me as to what he can do with a supercharged Marauder. I am glad we have him.

Tim, I would like to welocme you back and thank you for buying the first kit, F.I.T./Procharger #1.

It's great to have you back you PITA! :help:

[Cobra25]

Just so I get this right, My Marauder was Dynoed on a Very warm if not a hot day & the Hum. was up their, so if it was done on a cooler day with less Hum. my Dyno Numbers would be higher correct?

[MikesMerc]

Just so I get this right, My Marauder was Dynoed on a Very warm if not a hot day & the Hum. was up their, so if it was done on a cooler day with less Hum. my Dyno Numbers would be higher correct?

Assuming all other variables are equal besides temp and humidity, then yes, you would see better dyno numbers....typically speaking.

[Cobra25]

Assuming all other variables are equal besides temp and humidity, then yes, you would see better dyno numbers....typically speaking. So typically speaking , most likely they would be higher. Interesting, Thanks.

[Tallboy]

My car was on the dyno today for 3 hours with Scott Beer. On arrival, and as a result of playing with so many tunes, my A/F was 10.1 and the car made 430 rwhp w/ 9 degrees boost with the no ac bay temperature being in the 90's at 1 pm.

The most up to date tunes also incorporate timing reduction features based on AIT. I have been working with Dave at Injected Racing to find a good safe balance on spark reduction from 100-150 degrees AIT. Scott really liked what we have been working on in the tables.

Today some improvements were made to correct the MAF curve and the open loop tables were adjusted to optimise WOT spark at different loads safely.

My current A/F is 11.3 and the car is safely making HP in the 470's without a hint of detonation at 94 degree outside temps, just making 9 PSI. It has been hot as hell in Fl lately so I am real happy with the outcome which got me back to leaner a/f and allowed me to add more spark advance.

If any of you Procharger Guys want to follow suit with some of these adjustments call Dave at Injected up, I've emailed him the tune.

Welcome back, Tim! Impressive numbers, indeed. After driving your car earlier this year, I can't even beging to imagine that thing with more power! See you at the next meet! :beer:

[tmac1337]

BTW, Diablo had nothing to do with the Procharger that just lost a motor. He had just gotten the car tuned with "the other" tuning software. I didn't know if you knew that.

Oh, I know. I'll keep my comments to myself ref. "the other".

[tmac1337]

Tim, you have gone to no end for the perfect tune and Scoot Beer at Daiblo has delivered once again.

Scott continues to amaze me as to what he can do with a supercharged Marauder. I am glad we have him.


Thanks Greg. I think I am done with this tuning stuff now though. I had a few objectives to meet and I consider them met now.

I took the car out tonight and drove it for 45 minutes spanking on it to the tune of 1/4 tank of gas. It was 91 degrees outside when I started and 88 when I pulled back into my house. Could not get it to detonate, ran like a champ.

I do not know how Beer does it. He leans the fuel out and adds more timing and still no problem. I cannot even imagine what it must be like to drive the car in cold weather like JD is experiencing up north. I probably am using like 11-12 degrees of spark at WOT in this heat and he is adding up to 16 due to the cold temps. I can't wait for it to cool down :P

[tmac1337]

Welcome back, Tim! Impressive numbers, indeed. After driving your car earlier this year, I can't even beging to imagine that thing with more power! See you at the next meet! :beer:

I'm excited to see how the car performs this winter.

P.S. That polished intake that you and Claude installed for me has people's eyes glued when ever I open my hood! Thanks.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/intake1.jpg

[Cobra25]

I'm excited to see how the car performs this winter.

P.S. That polished intake that you and Claude installed for me has people's eyes glued when ever I open my hood! Thanks.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/intake1.jpg I must say it does look great!

[MarauderTJA]

Sounds like the tune is there Tim! Can't wait for Scott to send me my update, hopefully this weekend. Hoping for nice cool weather up at Atlanta Dragway next month..:) .Anyway you slice it, "Cool" weather = horsepower. Period..:D .

[MikesMerc]

Anyway you slice it, "Cool" weather = horsepower. Period..:D .

Can you say "AMEN!"

Blowers and cold air = cake and ice cream

[Bradley G]

I would love to see us evolve to a point where camparos' can be made objectively without distain for "others" wether they be tuners, products, philosophies.

Glad to hear that you are happy with your set-up tmac!
Isn't the understanding that detonation can be occuring without being heard?
I am not saying your car is not properly tuned(I can't tell from here)
I hope you enjoy many trouble free miles punishing you Marauder, the way it was meant.
The intake set-up looks real nice!

[MarauderTJA]

I would love to see us evolve to a point where camparos' can be made objectively without distain for "others" wether they be tuners, products, philosophies.
It seems things are getting better all around here.Let's just enjoy our rides:beer:

Tom, Cape Coral, Florida

[Bradley G]

I truly agree, TJA Much better on this front.

The "betwen the lines" inuendos, still plague our beloved forum.
Who loves ya? who's your buddy?:bows:

It seems things are getting better all around here.Let's just enjoy our rides:beer:

Tom, Cape Coral, Florida

[tmac1337]

I would love to see us evolve to a point where camparos' can be made objectively without distain for "others" wether they be tuners, products, philosophies.

Glad to hear that you are happy with your set-up tmac!
Isn't the understanding that detonation can be occuring without being heard?
I am not saying your car is not properly tuned(I can't tell from here)
I hope you enjoy many trouble free miles punishing you Marauder, the way it was meant.
The intake set-up looks real nice!

Bradley, I agree that comparisons should be made objectively. I think that's why the supercharger debates have winded down, both roots and centrifugal both have thier strenghts and weaknesses, no secrets there. Both make a lot of power, and air to water (Trilogies) and air to air both work, proven (JD did not run 12.6's in 90 degree heat for no reason), again no secret why debate it.

I have used both SCT and Diablo, and after such have a proven preference for one based on objective results in my car. Sorry, but if I discuss tuning I naturally will discuss Diablo. Choice is good, competition is good. There will be at least 3 more PCrger Diablo tuned cars getting track times this fall and winter, so we'll see how the kits and tunes do.

As far as deadly detonation that cannot be heard, well not much to be done about that :eek: . I can do something about detonation I can hear and have. Car is still running strong so something must be working right.