Good slip, bad slip, Y'all tell me...

[SergntMac]

Y'all wake up! Time to stand up as MercuryMarauder.net members, and do the right thing...VOTE! I'm doing my right thing by asking y'all to vote on an issue. Here's why...

On Tuesday, 4 Oct. 05, Paul T. Casey, BradleyG, Too Many Fords, Zack and I, went racing at "DaGrove". For the past few years, it's been known as a "***** track", but we were just looking to have some fun with out of town guests. It turned out to be an evening of extreme highs and lows. John lost his engine, and my MM ran it's best 1320 ET ever. On Saturday, 8 Oct., I finally got the slip scanned at Office Max and I added the data to my profile here. Y'all may be surprised to learn that I was not anxious to post the numbers.

Why? Because there are problems with the time slip. I knew this from the beginning, and asked my friends with me at the track to keep it under their respective caps until I decided what to do about it. I thought it out, crunched some numbers, talked with some pro-racers around town, and felt I had earned my place among honorable men in our "top ten" timeslip database. You can see that order here:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/timeslips.php?

On Sunday, 9 Oct., I recieved an e-mail from our newly appointed Moderator, Dave (MI2QUK4U), with concern about the slip. I'll let his e-mail explain.


Some people have PMed me about your recent addition to the timeslip page. The time on the timeslip is showing a time of 6:54 pm and your admission ticket shows 19:13 or 7:13 pm, if this is correct, you would have made the run before you paid to get in. Also your mile per hour is wrong. The timeslip shows 101.05. Your 60 foot time is .879? How can that be? I will be honest with you, the numbers dont make a lot of sense, I was hoping you might look at that for me. I dont want people questioning you in open forum trying to embarass you. I try to be fair and watch out for your interests too. Looks like that timeing machine was fudged up, cause those numbers dont add up. I had that happen at Lapeer once. Anyway, look at it and see if you come up with the same red flags. Thanks in advance. Dave.

My reply:


I agree that there are errors visible that will cause some members to question it. We knew this at the track, and it was discussed with track management. All they could say, was "sorry, printer issues."

Zack drove the car, John (TooManyFords) stood next to me as the numbers came up on the board, Paul T Casey and BradleyG were present, but I'm not sure exactly where. When we looked at the time slip, printer errors were obvious. This is why I included my gate ticket, to show that the system was messed up in some way. From the top...

My 11.682 is printed in two places on the slip, and it was on the board. If you add the missing "1", 1.879 is a consistent 60' time for my car, I've got lower times on other slips. Still, it's consistent with the 330', 1/8 mile and 1000 ' data, which is consistent with an 11.682, as well as likewise data posted by others at the site. The MPH is also messed up, but I have on board data logging that confirms a 120+ MPH run, and that data was viewed by other MM.Net members present. Moreover, reverse my opinion. Consider it accurate at 101.05 MPH. Isn't this more inconsistent with the remaining data? Zack would have had to lock up the brakes?

IMHO, despite the two errors in printing, this is a valid timeslip, and I had to decide what to do with it. I've been working hard on improving my MM, and I believe I earned this slip.

Please contact Zack, Paul T. Casey, John Friel, or, Bradley Sinclair if you need to confirm anything. A timeslip isn't worth fabrication, and I wouldn't fabricate anything related to my MM, or, the Board. Besides, I don't own any of the tools one needs to fabricate, Hell, I needed Mary's help to get this posted as it appears in my hand.

Dave's last advice on the topic:


Computer error must be to blame, thats the only way to account for the conflicts. That being said, is it ok to leave an obviously flawed timeslip in the fourm, expecially in the top ten. If it was anyone else, I would have already pulled the slip, but some would acuse me of messing with you. Its a tough spot to be in. I take the mod job very seriously, and try to be fair and impartial, maybe to a fault. Do you have any suggestions? Dave.

Yes, I do. And, I think it's very reasonable, considering what's in the best interests of all concerned. My suggestion, is this poll.

I see myself here as no different than any first time poster. I'm just an MM owner, and mostly JAFO. It's true that I am more involved with my copy of the Marauder than many others here, I'm known to try stupid stuff, and do things with/to my MM that make y'all flinch. But, that's the history of my OG, she was born a groundbreaker, and will remain a test pig. I enjoy that side of things today.

Nonetheless, I consider myself just another member here, and I reject any special status y'all mention every so often. When Dave said ^ there "if it was anyone else, I would have pulled the slip", he shows me honor and respect I do not seek, nor accept. After almost 30 years as an honest cop, you could not say more to hurt my feelings. I am as fair-minded as Dave presents this challenge to me, and my fairness says, this is your home, your board, you make this call.

So, the question is put to y'all. Vote in the poll, and tell me (and our moderators) if my timeslip merits standing among our "top ten" club, or, not. What ever y'all decide, I'll abide by your decision. Likewise, I expect the MM.Net administration to abide by it as well.

It's this simple, "yes", or, "no". This poll will run for seven days, and I made it a blind vote. No one will know how you voted, not even me.

Please vote, this process is how we should handle such issues in the future. If you have made an emotional investment in this board, and count on it for 411 daily, or, just like to play here once in a while, every once in a while you make get asked to stand and be counted. Raise your hand, Dave, Mary and Dan need to see that.

BTW...Congrats, Dave, I know you mean well. I thought this was the best solution. Let the membership be heard?

[MAD-3R]

To err is human but it takes a computer to truely foal things up.

Let it stand

[AzMarauder]

After almost 30 years as an honest cop, you could not say more to hurt my feelings.
This isn't as simple as you make it out. Your profile says you are 28 years old... that is hard to reconcile with your statement above.....

So I think we have to solve that issue before we address a seemingly flawed time slip on a Marauder ! :rolleyes:


All joking aside, and I know it means a LOT to some of you guys spending big dollars to push the edge.... but frankly... I don't see what the problem is... one way or the other. IMHO if the times aren't run at the same time on the same track... :dunno: why fuss over a few tenths of a second here and there!

[FordNut]

My opinion, and we all know about those...

I would not have posted it in the timeslips, nor would I have posted the times to advance my car in position on the timeslips page without a legible timeslip printout. I would most assuredly start a thread and post the info there with an explanation of why I didn't have a timeslip. It's not a matter of believing it or not, it's about consistent enforcement of policy.

If it was a FNG, he would have been flogged for it by now. It kind of puts Dave in a tough spot too.

But that's a FAST freakin' car, thanks for the test drive.

[MI2QWK4U]

I just noticed Mac's thread on the topic of the timeslip. To begin with the Moderators at the time some months ago at the request of the membership nailed down exactly how the timeslip page would be configured. It meant enough to get turned into a poll and the Mods took the results and laid down the law. To me the Timeslip page is a source of raw data on our Marauders, a snapshot in time lending itself to the modifications and tuning a specific car has. It should be pretty much agreed upon that the info within should be accurate as possible, especially in the top ten. That having been said, I contacted Mac about the timeslip when I recieved notes from members questioning the timeslip which untill then, hadnt even noticed untill someone posted the good news. If no one felt it important enough to mention in open forum, I felt asking Mac personally was the way to go and get his feedback, obviously from his post he was aware of the easy to see mistakes on the slip. This was my last email to Mac before he started this post:


Mac,
It looks as if the timer may have been a second off? The reaction time of 1.4 is nuts for someone as good as Zack. And that 60 ft time of .897. the 1/8 mile mph are consistant with your old times of low 12s, but are too low compared to the other mid 11 cars. The final mph in the 120s is only seen by cars that are blown and sprayed. Are you spraying your car too? Mac, do you have any other timeslips to back this one up? Computer error must be to blame, thats the only way to account for the conflicts. That being said, is it ok to leave an obviously flawed timeslip in the fourm, expecially in the top ten. If it was anyone else, I would have already pulled the slip, but some would acuse me of messing with you. Its a tough spot to be in. I take the mod job very seriously, and try to be fair and impartial, maybe to a fault. Do you have any suggestions?
Dave

It is unfortunate that the timing computer erred so bad, come on, .897 for a 60 ft time is impossible for our car, just as Zack having a 1.4 reaction time. It boils down to weather or not a flawed timeslip with admitted mistakes remain when the results may or may not be right, but definitely can confuse. In court, which I have experience in presenting evidence, once it would be determined the timing machine was flawed, any results would be precluded from being entered as evidence. I'm sure some will have their own opinions as to my motivation, but in this respect its all about what is fair.

[MI2QWK4U]

I just wanted to add that I appreciate Mac's responses and effort to decide. This is a delema that could hit any of us on the forum, your best run, on a crappy timeslip. It has happened to me before and its fustrating! Thanks for being so understanding Mac.

[Bigdogjim]

looking at it from the stand point of an eyewittness how do you disagree?

If 4 members say it's so then what else is needed?

[Rider90]

Threads like this reinforce my reasoning to never take my car to the track. If your happy with it around town, what the hell else matters, but to some everything else does.

[LordVader]

looking at it from the stand point of an eyewittness how do you disagree?

If 4 members say it's so then what else is needed?^^^^^Have to agree with the Bigdog. Corroboration of members present should be enough for this forum. From Mac's initial statement it seems this track has a bad reputation and with this snafu has done nothing to endear itself to anyone...especially the Sarge!

[BillyGman]

I voted "NO" but contrary to what some might think, it had nothig to do with who's car it is, nor with the type of S/Cer is on the car in question......


Listen, I know how it is to put alot of money and work into your car, and to have some really great runs at the dragstrip after all is said and done. It's pure joy to find that your time, money, and work has payed off!!! And I'm sure it would be very dissappointing if I found out that somehow my timeslips weren't legit. So in a certain way, I can sympathize with MAC, because I'm sure that he has put a lot of time and money into his Marauder too.

However, just because I can sympathize with MAC, doesn't mean that I'm going to pretend that the timeslip in question is just fine. With all due respect, I also know that if I had a timeslip that was as screwed up as MAC's is, I wouldn't even bother posting it, nor would I even have kept the thing. How can you pick and choose what's right on that slip, and what isn't? You say that you know that the 101 MPH trap speed is wrong, but yet how can you then say that the ET which is on the very same timeslip is right?

I don't think that you can assume that the only problem that there was with that run was in fact the printer at the track simply because that's what they told MAC when he was there. With a timeslip that looks that screwy, I would have to call into question the electronic equipment at that track as well. Atleast to the extent of it malfuntioning on that particular run. I'm sure that if MAC's car is that quick, then he will have other future runs that are very impressive, and with a good timeslip as well.

I'm not questioning anyone's integrity on this board concerning this matter whether they were there at the track that day or not. I'm questioning the track's electronics as well as their printer. With a timeslip that looks that crazy, then how do you know that the ET's that the spectators saw flashing on the screen, were even correct for that run? So in light of that, I think that timeslip is worthless. Please don't take that the wrong way MAC. I mean no offense.


Had a timeslip from a Trilogy car been posted which looked like that, I wouldn't have even waited until a poll like this was posted. I would have questioned it immediately. But I was hesitent do do so with this timeslip, simply because the Marauder in question has a different type of S/Cer than mine does, and I know how animosity can start between those of the two schools of thought on S/Cers at the drop of a hat around here. So I didn't want to start anything. I think that's also what Dave meant by the comments in his e-mail.

People such as myself like comparing the information in different timeslips to learn how different modification combos work, and exactly where their weak points and strong points are within the quartermile run. And that's where the value of timeslips is. It isn't just about bragging rights. If it was, then the only info that would be listed on a timeslip would be the ET, and maybe the trap speed. There wouldn't be anything about 330' times, nor 1/8th mile trap speeds. Just look at what my comments were in that thread about Mike's Merc timeslip as compared to my own if you don't believe me on that. But this timeslip that MAC has posted cannot be used to compare any info like that with any other timeslip, because who can tell which figures are right, and which ones are wrong on it? It's a guessing game. The fact is, that you just can't tell at all. So the timeslip in question is without any value.

If MAC's car runs in the 11's, then he will have more than just one timeslip that will show that in the future. Just as I for example have more than one timeslip that displays 12.0 ET's in 50 degree temperatures for my car, and more than one timeslip that displays 12.2 ET's in 70 degree temperatures too. So I see no reason to rely on merely one timeslip, especially if that one timeslip looks as ****-eyed as this one that MAC has posted does.

Sorry for this post being so long, but because MAC's car is S/Ced, I didn't want to be misunderstood in any way, since I know how touchy any discussions about a S/Ced Marauder can be on this board.

[DEFYANT]

I trust ya, so leave it.

But go do it again and get another slip to keep it real on the timeslip data base. Otherwise this will come up again in the future.

Now I have to go to the track to get outta lucky #13 slot!! Thanks Mac!!

[DEFYANT]

However;

If you do not get a new slip within "X" amount of days, the mods should pull it!

You decide on what "X" amount of days is. Just git-r-done.

[Smokie]

The timeslip is screwed-up, I have close to 80 passes and I have timeslips with the wrong dates, wrong MPH. For whatever reason the 1/4 ET has been correct (based on my cars capabilities). I am not going to vote.

Since this is about a TIMESLIP and we all are tying to do the right thing, consider these facts.

1: There are cars in the first page WITHOUT timelips. WHY ???

2: I clicked on the actual timeslip for everyone on the front page and saw NOTHING on about HALF of them. Including some famous names among us. WHY???

Those of you that know me are aware that a man's word is all I require for proof.

My opinion is, if the flaws in Mac's timeslip are a good reason to invalidate, correct the rest of the problems that exist on the FRONT PAGE.

From my computer, I can ONLY SEE 9 actual timeslips out of the 25 entries in the front page.

[TooManyFords]

Sorry, I was there and Mac's car spanked the other car by the appropriate distance and times. No-one else there that night complained of bad times and certainly no-one else came forward with a time slip that was way under what their car is capable of. Period.

Mac earned it and the track printer sucks.

Hell, I crossed the traps with a 14.6 and oiled the last third of the track down...

Bottom line, fast is fast and it isn't a moderators job to scruitinize time slips and decide. We all play the same game and get what is spit out at the computer. The number board said the same thing as the slip and it's good in my book.

John

[martyo]

Take a look at various claims to speed records. They require back up runs. It sure sucks here that the timing equipment was screwed, which it clearly was. I sure wish your slips wasn't screwed up, but it is. Now, that doesn't mean that you did it or had anything to do with it. If you were going to adulterate a slip, you sure wouldn't have done it that way and with all those folks around to corroborate it. But, if you had to give me a speeding ticket that were to stand in Court you would lose if the data like that were presented.

As for witnesses to your speed, I am not sure what that really counts for. I am willing to bet that most people can't tell the difference in speeds that vary by a second or more in the quarter.

Also, as to judging the possibility of such a slip, someone up there ^^ asked about mods you made your pass with. Not a single car (that I know of) has made a pass of that caliber without spraying (unless Zack's slip was a pass without spray).

Mac, it is clear that you have a fast car. There is no doubt to that. And, as far as I am concerned your slip can stand, but what exactly does it stand for? Unfortunately, not much. Sorry, but that is how I feel.

Just get yourself back to the track and make another (perhaps better) pass and all of this goes away.

Hell, bring your car to SSHS5 and run it there. Commerce has pretty good timing equipment and the data should be reliable. I can't help you get time off from work, so I know it may be tough to work out. But I personally will kick in some dough to see you come down. Either in the form of "race money" for a pot or if your needs require, some travel money. You decide.

So, game on?

[martyo]

The number board said the same thing as the slip and it's good in my book.

Don't the number boards and the printer feed from the same data loggers? So, wouldn't that make it GIGO?

[martyo]

By the way, before this thread starts to look like the Great Nickle Plate Fiasco of '05, I voted that the slip can stand. It wasn't an option in the poll, but I would have selected "Yes, let the slip stand for whatever it's worth...."

[TooManyFords]

Honestly, I don't know the answer to that question. As a computer programmer I can probably guess that it is not a very sophisticated system and that the cheesie printer in the shack is worth about as much as the cheeseburger in the consession stand. That being said, GIGO is a reasonable assumption.

But I too have a fist full of time slips where the 60ft, the 330 or 1000 is off by a mile and in all cases the 1320 is correct. If there has to be one accurate set of times on the track, it is that one. That's why I believe the run.

John

[2003 MIB]

looking at it from the stand point of an eyewittness how do you disagree?

If 4 members say it's so then what else is needed?
Yep- that's enough for me. Nice going, Mac & Zack!
I think Marty's idea about running in the ATL is awesome- y'all gonna work that out?????

[martyo]

But I too have a fist full of time slips where the 60ft, the 330 or 1000 is off by a mile...

So do I, but my fist is where those slips stay.

[martyo]

I think Marty's idea about running in the ATL is awesome- y'all gonna work that out?????

By the way, I am not even sure my junk will be running that weekend, but I am still willing to pony up some cash. I will take my chances.

If I have to, I will throw some lead into my buddy's Mustang and run that. :D

[Marauderman]

The timeslip is screwed-up, I have close to 80 passes and I have timeslips with the wrong dates, wrong MPH. For whatever reason the 1/4 ET has been correct (based on my cars capabilities). I am not going to vote.

Since this is about a TIMESLIP and we all are tying to do the right thing, consider these facts.

1: There are cars in the first page WITHOUT timelips. WHY ???

2: I clicked on the actual timeslip for everyone on the front page and saw NOTHING on about HALF of them. Including some famous names among us. WHY???

Those of you that know me are aware that a man's word is all I require for proof.

My opinion is, if the flaws in Mac's timeslip are a good reason to invalidate, correct the rest of the problems that exist on the FRONT PAGE.

From my computer, I can ONLY SEE 9 actual timeslips out of the 25 entries in the front page.
..for those wanting to know about mine.....I have my timeslip and don't have a way to post it--but I am willing to send a copy of it to anyone .....for posting-however-----I will have my MM hitting the tracks soon-- so with that being said--I'll wait and send Mary that new slip for posting.....thats my excuse for my absence timeslip--otherwise it would be there---that current one will definiately fall away--for I better be moving on up......


..and I feel any silp with errors is just that ..and error which requires another /corrected one to keep this subject from every developing.....Tom

[martyo]

..for those wanting to know about mine.....I have my timeslip and don't have a way to post it--but I am willing to send a copy of it to anyone .....for posting-

Send it to me. I will host it and post it.

[MM03MOK]

1: There are cars in the first page WITHOUT timelips. WHY ???

While anyone can post a timeslip, after our Timeslip poll, the concensus was anyone with sub-12 numbers is required to post a slip. For all others, it's optional.



2: I clicked on the actual timeslip for everyone on the front page and saw NOTHING on about HALF of them. Including some famous names among us. WHY???

To post a timeslip, you first need to post your timeslip on the web, whether it be in the Gallery, or hosted on another website. In your Profile, at the bottom, you'll see the place for the URL of the timeslip. This is what folks need to do to get their timeslip to show up via the link in the database. If you can't figure it out, upload the timeslip in your Gallery and send me a PM that you need help getting it into your profile. I'll take care of it.

:bunny:

[MM03MOK]

I'm sure some will have their own opinions as to my motivation, but in this respect its all about what is fair.Dave, I would have done the same thing. I think it's good to have an open discussion about it since we've not been faced with this issue. Next time, we'll know what to do right away. Now Mac, get out there and let OG grab another great time!!

[Smokie]

While anyone can post a timeslip, after our Timeslip poll, the concensus was anyone with sub-12 numbers is required to post a slip. For all others, it's optional.
:bunny:There are 2 sub-12 entries that when I click on them I get nothing or an avatar.

Again, I will abide by whatever the consensus decides, all I am saying is this: Let's correct all the errors.:)

[Agent M79]

Boy oh boy, what a can of worms.

What has been and will be the accepted burden of proof?

Is it the timeslip?
If I remember correctly, this was made the gold standard because people were improperly reporting times. In fact I think the whole database was changed to make the timeslip the gold standard above individual representations.

Is it the witnesses?
They know what they saw but that doesn't mean they all weren't seeing the same erroneous report. Unless that witness is another calibrated time system, a human witness is an estimate, albeit a close one.

Is it the person than ran?
We know Mac. He says he ran it, he ran it. But maybe we don't know the next guy so well. What then? Is it really a floating standard based on how well the individual is trusted on mm.net? Isn't that the core of many accusations of bias and foul-play? Hmmm?

I think Mac did it. Good show. A lot of time, money, sweat, and brain wattage yielded great results.

Sadly, even Mac has to be held to the same standards as someone we do not know when we say that a single timeslip is the defacto standard of proof.

As with all of the outstanding timeslips, some measure of repeatability bolsters the feat and greatly reduces the possibility of error even on those timeslips that appear appropriate but could be off for one reason or another.

This is the nature of the beast and I think the beast crapped on you, Mac. For that, I am truly sorry. This is the one that got away.

Timeslip = :down:

[prchrman]

IMNSHO I think this timeslip thing is just a little to serious...if mac says he ran it good enough...even if joe slime says he ran it...seems good enough for me...what ever some knothead puts on that is true or not it does not make my car faster or slower or do I think less of my ride...people on here get bent out of shape over the craziest things...like it really matters in the big picture...I have never ran my car down a 1/4 mile and may not...it is stock and to me and what I have been accustomed too, it is slow...I guess I was just around guys that made fun of each others cars when they beat them and talked all kind of junk about chev, ford, mopar and really ragged each other out and then they all went and ate and had a drink together...this is not war-just fun and games...try to have fun...K...willie
OBTW great run Mac...congrats...

[klmore]

I voted no, but I do believe the time slip ET to be correct. I think a new slip to back up the first is in order.

I would be bent out of shape if the track screwed up my best time slip, but I think it is great that brought it to the members for a vote.

Either way congrats on the new time.:)

[LiLWrink]

Smokie, you know you cant please, all the people all the time...I appreciate your effort. But I worry this effort will give you an anuerism:D

To everyone else... if you are not familar with the old "fudged up" timeslip issue...you are mostly a spectator. This complaint dates back to the first timed event, in our sport of dragracing.

I dont like the politics, the technicalities, or the rat fink bastids that use them to manipulate the sport, in either direction.

I believe the man's ticket is legit. Now, everywhere he goes, he has to make an all out effort to duplicate that run everytime he runs...and at the same time endure this debate and the competition, the pressure, and whatever else is metaphorically thrown at him.

Just remember, this sport/hobby is supposed to be enjoyment, entertainment, and fun...just my $.02.

[carfixer]

There are 2 sub-12 entries that when I click on them I get nothing or an avatar.

Again, I will abide by whatever the consensus decides, all I am saying is this: Let's correct all the errors.:)
Although I am not a sub 12er, my timeslip went to my avatar a long time ago. Mary and myself tried to fix it with no success. I spoke to L about it and he said it is an error that will take some time to fix. I posted it in the gallery.

[jgc61sr2002]

I agree with Marty that the slip would not hold up in court of Law.
Since this is not a court I voted to let it stand.
I have no reason to doubt Mac or the members of this board who were present.

[David Morton]

I voted no because I wouldn't post it, and I wouldn't trust the figures either. As I understand it, the printer prints a "0" instead of a "2", and omits a digit on the 0-60' time. Where else is a wrong digit printed or omitted? It doesn't matter to me if the times "fit" or "are in the ballpark", I would want to know all of the digits are correct and as you seem to admit, any of them could be wrong.

I feel for you, you got dealt a bad card, but maybe you want the new best 1/4 mile time so you can position your car higher in the top-ten too badly to see this fact. Do you really want Zack to "give us his word" for all of the tenths digits being correct? If the 11.682 is really an 11.982, then you unseated MI2QWK4U back to 7th place unjustly.

Just run the car again man. How much trouble is it? Do you want the possibility of people outside our club to surf over here, find the obvious discrepancies in your slip and then link it over to their site, using it to discount our car and forum?

At the end of the day I have to accept a bad card every now and then. I just go on and play the best I can with it, I don't go asking for another card or play it and say, "This was actually supposed to be an ace. Everybody here please regard this eight of clubs as if it were an ace of spades. Everybody here knows I'm honorable, right?"

Think about it, what you're asking.

[WolfeBros]

First off I voted to let it stand. Mac is a man I would take at his word anytime and in this case he has several board members as witnesses. It was a no brainer to me. That being said........ I also think that any record (or timeslip) that needs an explanation is tainted. I think it sucks that on a best run that equipment SNAFU came into play but that too is a roll of the dice.

I know what I would do Mac. Your an honorable man with a known quick car. Screw the bad luck and crappy track equipment.......you and your car deserve better. Your slip is good with me but as you can see the time will always be suspect with someone. Go out and get another timeslip that needs no explanation. In the meantime you can use this slip as a place holder for your car. You weren't gonna retire with this time anyway eh ??? ;)

[Marauderman]

Send it to me. I will host it and post it.
I'll get it copied and do that----it's the one currently referenced on the timslip page from lasst SSHS in Nov.'04.

[Merc-O-matic]

I believe Mac....but No ticket No Wash!
Like an umpire's call in a baseball game you win some and lose some,
that's part of life.
Having been to the track and actually raced my Marauder
in the 1/4 mile everything has to be right for it to count!
I ran a 15.404 and proud of it.....and slip in hand to prove it!

Gotta Love It! :pimp:

P.S. Your next trip to the track should be FREE
after they messed everything up.

[Paul T. Casey]

I voted let it stand. Heck, I may have even said the 60' time was real if it were my slip, maybe not on this board, but definately with some of my braggart friends. From my vantage point, all I know is he smoked the guy in the other lane. I was a little self absorbed in what I was doing to be a good witness though, and didn't have a stop watch, etc. Point being is Mac's car is FAST, maybe too fast for the timers at DaGrove. I also vote for him to show up at the shootout, track prep, good equipment, and a good bunch of folks should help back up these numbers. Maybe go a long way in promoting some Marauder family happiness too, common "enemy" and all that rot.

[Tallboy]

I voted no because I wouldn't post it, and I wouldn't trust the figures either. As I understand it, the printer prints a "0" instead of a "2", and omits a digit on the 0-60' time. Where else is a wrong digit printed or omitted? It doesn't matter to me if the times "fit" or "are in the ballpark", I would want to know all of the digits are correct and as you seem to admit, any of them could be wrong.

I feel for you, you got dealt a bad card, but maybe you want the new best 1/4 mile time so you can position your car higher in the top-ten too badly to see this fact. Do you really want Zack to "give us his word" for all of the tenths digits being correct? If the 11.682 is really an 11.982, then you unseated MI2QWK4U back to 7th place unjustly.

Just run the car again man. How much trouble is it? Do you want the possibility of people outside our club to surf over here, find the obvious discrepancies in your slip and then link it over to their site, using it to discount our car and forum?

At the end of the day I have to accept a bad card every now and then. I just go on and play the best I can with it, I don't go asking for another card or play it and say, "This was actually supposed to be an ace. Everybody here please regard this eight of clubs as if it were an ace of spades. Everybody here knows I'm honorable, right?"

Think about it, what you're asking.

This is the best analogy I have read so far. Here's my take, for what it's worth...

Mac's integrity is not in question here. Never has been.
I do not believe the slip has been altered in any way.
What is in question is the integrity of the timing equipment.
I am operating under the assumption the printer simply prints what the equipment tells it to.

If the "printer" printed a "0" instead of a "2", why is the slip dated 2005?
Zack cut a 1.4 second light? Not a chance in hell.
60' time of .879? We all know this is wrong.
1/8 mile of 7.1? Could be, but the record is 7.2
Trap speed of 101.5 MPH? Maybe if he was towing my boat.

[duhtroll]

Prchrman sums up how I feel as well.

The 1320 is correct. The 4 witnesses are valid, and I know two of them personally and trust them both.

If you don't trust people then EVERYONE's timeslip is invalid. Anyone can make one and make the numbers pass scrutiny. It ain't that difficult.

'Course you know my feeling about needing one in the first place, and the previous vote validated that as a majority.

Now for you <12 second guys I have no problem with wanting slips, but the errors in question are:

1) Not Mac's fault
2) Not affecting the 1320
3) have been corroborated by trusted witnesses

Leave it.

-A


IMNSHO I think this timeslip thing is just a little to serious...if mac says he ran it good enough...even if joe slime says he ran it...seems good enough for me...what ever some knothead puts on that is true or not it does not make my car faster or slower or do I think less of my ride...people on here get bent out of shape over the craziest things...like it really matters in the big picture...I have never ran my car down a 1/4 mile and may not...it is stock and to me and what I have been accustomed too, it is slow...I guess I was just around guys that made fun of each others cars when they beat them and talked all kind of junk about chev, ford, mopar and really ragged each other out and then they all went and ate and had a drink together...this is not war-just fun and games...try to have fun...K...willie
OBTW great run Mac...congrats...

[SergntMac]

Less than 24 hours now, and the poll is running a dead heat. I'll come back to this in a moment.

I knew the slip was flawed, and I knew this would be a problem. There were several discussions with Track Officials, and it was concluded to be a printer problem, not data collection. Still, I waited, and debated with myself, the pros and cons of posting the slip.

There is a lot of wisdom posted here, from very smart folks who I hold a lot of respect for. This is my community and I asked for it counsel. I am complimented by my community's response. Y'all know what this slip means to me, it would mean the same to you if it was your slip. However, I have to take it a level more important than me. What does this slip mean to you all.

This topic is not a matter of my personal integrity, but it does involve a question of my moral compass, the compass I live by, and my responsibility to my community. It's best said here.

Do you want the possibility of people outside our club to surf over here, find the obvious discrepancies in your slip and then link it over to their site, using it to discount our car and forum? No, I do not want that, and honestly, I never considered that possibility. To be responsible for harm to our MM.Net in any way would bother me to no end.

The poll is neck and neck, but I don't need any more votes to know what's the right thing to do here. My time slip is not more important than my community, and it's coming down. Thank you all, for your guidance.

Moderator Dave, do me the honor of pulling my slip and closing this poll.

The next time we have a problem, or, something weighs heavy on us, take it to the community, and abide by their wishes. Y'all won't need a dark side, when you discuss stuff with respect for all involved.

Thanks again.

[tmac1337]

I do not believe in "Blind Polls" so I do not mind stating I voted "NO".

Personally, if the car was able to come up with that time, then congratulations MAC :banana2:

But the slip is flawed. "Dagrove" was described as a "***** track" and "but we were just looking to have some fun".... In which case an inaccurate slip was produced from a "***** track" but who cares, it was just for fun.

Posting the inaccurate slip is serious, not fun, when it appears there is a high degree of competition on this forum, and many others, when it comes to posting slips.

If the car is capable of a great time earning a rank in the top ten, then surely it must be capable of doing the same at a "Good track" which takes itself more seriously resulting in accurate slips. Simply run the car again. Why not?

Again, I do not disbelieve the car is capable, congratulations.

[Zack]

I have the answer, I drove the car.
Only with Mac's permission will I come clean.

[Smokie]

I've been reading the comments and some are a little unrealistic, Mac already said he is pulling the slip, so this is all academic.

To those that say, "well just run again and that will solve everything" I would reply: How many identical runs do you have to compare with your best timeslip???

Now we have "questionable tracks", and I guess we also have "beyond question tracks"

We have guys in the top ten with "blanks" popping up where the timeslip should be, but is ok 'cause we all know he is "really fast" and we have guys that wind up with a bizarre looking slip (Sorry Mac) and basically are stuck, Mac sometimes I think if it weren't for bad luck you have none at all.:)

Since I am nowhere near the REVERED TOP TEN, this just doesn't generate much emotion with me, so in the interest of being a pain in the ass I proposed this:

INVALIDATE ALL ENTRIES IN THE TIMESLIP PAGE.

everybody back to the track...it's a piece of cake. right???.;) and lets get some good fresh timeslips. It should be no problem for EVERYBODY to duplicate their best runs.:D

[MERCMAN]

Leave the timeslip and put an asterisk next to it(ala Roger Maris) with an explanation under details on the timeslip page is another solution.

[BillyGman]

Mac already said he is pulling the slip, so this is all academic. Yes, and I think he now has made the right decision.

To those that say, "well just run again and that will solve everything" I would reply: How many identical runs do you have to compare with your best timeslip??? I have a couple 12.2's timeslips from one day at the track, and a couple 12.0's from another time also.

this just doesn't generate much emotion with me, apparently not my friend.

INVALIDATE ALL ENTRIES IN THE TIMESLIP PAGE.

everybody back to the track...it's a piece of cake. right???.;) and lets get some good fresh timeslips. It should be no problem for EVERYBODY to duplicate their best runs.:D Why should that need to be done just because of one rediculous timeslip from one person? I've seen timeslips with one number being blank, but this one in question is just screwed up from the word "go".

I like what Marty stated.......what do spectators have to do with this? If there wasn't any ET's ever flashed up on a screen when you go to the track, would you be able to tell from sitting in the bleachers if any particular car had run an 11.5 ET or a 12.5? What about an 11.5 from a 12.0? I don't think so. And as for the track people telling MAC that their printer is messed up......well ofcourse they're going to say that. Think about it.....if they went around admitting to people that their electronics equipment is messed up, then nobody would want to race at that track anymore once the word got around on the internet.



And there's money to be made for them. So they're not going to ever admit to one of their racer customers that their equipment is worthless even if it is. I would never even bother racing at that track. Especially when it's known to be lousy like MAC has stated.

[duhtroll]

:lol: :lol: :lol:



I've been reading the comments and some are a little unrealistic, Mac already said he is pulling the slip, so this is all academic.

To those that say, "well just run again and that will solve everything" I would reply: How many identical runs do you have to compare with your best timeslip???

Now we have "questionable tracks", and I guess we also have "beyond question tracks"

We have guys in the top ten with "blanks" popping up where the timeslip should be, but is ok 'cause we all know he is "really fast" and we have guys that wind up with a bizarre looking slip (Sorry Mac) and basically are stuck, Mac sometimes I think if it weren't for bad luck you have none at all.:)

Since I am nowhere near the REVERED TOP TEN, this just doesn't generate much emotion with me, so in the interest of being a pain in the ass I proposed this:

INVALIDATE ALL ENTRIES IN THE TIMESLIP PAGE.

everybody back to the track...it's a piece of cake. right???.;) and lets get some good fresh timeslips. It should be no problem for EVERYBODY to duplicate their best runs.:D

[WolfeBros]

[QUOTE=Smokie
To those that say, "well just run again and that will solve everything" I would reply: How many identical runs do you have to compare with your best timeslip???
[/QUOTE]

Speed, horsepower, racing, ET's, motorsports in general is never easy.
I was one of the one's that said get another time slip and shut everyone up.
I meant it as encouragement for a friend. I also know that it may be next week, next month, next year before Mac might be able to duplicate what he did. He has a screwed timeslip.....he knows what his car did.......the naysayers will never accept it without the proof. Its the way of the racing world. Has been for years....without a good timeslip its all just talk.

The people that have ever made more than one pass at any track know what is involved. That was the main reason in offering my encouragement.

[Tallboy]

I've been reading the comments and some are a little unrealistic, Mac already said he is pulling the slip, so this is all academic.

To those that say, "well just run again and that will solve everything" I would reply: How many identical runs do you have to compare with your best timeslip???

Now we have "questionable tracks", and I guess we also have "beyond question tracks"

We have guys in the top ten with "blanks" popping up where the timeslip should be, but is ok 'cause we all know he is "really fast" and we have guys that wind up with a bizarre looking slip (Sorry Mac) and basically are stuck, Mac sometimes I think if it weren't for bad luck you have none at all.:)

Since I am nowhere near the REVERED TOP TEN, this just doesn't generate much emotion with me, so in the interest of being a pain in the ass I proposed this:

INVALIDATE ALL ENTRIES IN THE TIMESLIP PAGE.

everybody back to the track...it's a piece of cake. right???.;) and lets get some good fresh timeslips. It should be no problem for EVERYBODY to duplicate their best runs.:D

My car's best time is 13.1X

I have a fistfull of timeslips from three different times of the year, all with 13.1X elapsed time. Carfixer drove it. I drove it. Pete drove it. Pete got one 13.0X timeslip out of it, but since he was the one driving, and I could not duplicate it, I told him to keep it.

[mpearce]

I have the answer, I drove the car.
Only with Mac's permission will I come clean.Great...lets hear it then. Why does someone have to come clean anyway? Why didn't Mac just tell us all whats up in the first place? We've now got three MM's in the 11.60's, 2of them with similar set ups, yet everything remains a secret?? Why is that? With Mac being a big proponent of 411...why don't we share some?

He did a fantastic job with the tear down / rebuild pics of his engine...I think I looked at every single picture, and a learned a ton from it. Why stop there? Why does the 411 sharing stop when the timeslips, and competition come into play?

All BS asside...and 11.60 in an MM is a phenominal run hands down.

Congrats...I'd love to know what it feels like to make a pass in a car that runs 11.60's. Not all of us have had opportunities like that, and I'm sure a lot of us wish they have.

So I just ask this...cause I could give a ***** about that timeslip and all of it's errors...

12.40's - 11.60's...thats a huge jump...how'd you do it?

Spray? Zacks slicks? Luck O' the Irish?

I'm sure the majority would love to know.

-Mat

[MikesMerc]

First off, no one is questioning Mac's integrity here. Mac can only rely on what the timing equipment shows him. In no way do I think Mac altered the slip in any way. He is simply not that kind of guy in my book.

That said, I have an explanation of what might have happened. I've seen it happen before. It appears that the rear tires of the car broke the staging beams and started the timer. This would account for an excessively high reaction time, a excessively low (quite impossible) 60 foot ET, and an excessively low 1/8 mile time that does not match the 1/8 mph.

If you subtract somewhere between .6 to 1 second from the reaction time, and add that to the 60 foot and 1/8 ET things begin to make sense and the 1/8 ET would match the 1/8 mph.

This is just a guess of what happened becasue i have seen it before on older tracks with older equipment.

The above would explain why the qtr mile ET flashed on board and everyone saw it. It would explain almost all of the strange numbers. What it would not explain is the 1/4 mph at 101 which would appear to be too low. Perhaps zack lifted before the end....who knows.

Either way, this poll isn't about judging Mac's integrity, its about considering whether Mac has a valid entry for the top ten on the time slip page given the rules developed by the mods. There is BIG difference.

I will say this, Mac has decided to remove the slip due to questionable data. This must be a very dissappointing thing to have to do. I know I would be bummed out for sure. However, given the fact that Mac is willing to do this, he deserves a great deal of respect. He is doing what is right even though is personally sucks for him. That is a measure of character!

[MikesMerc]

Great...lets hear it then. Why does someone have to come clean anyway? Why didn't Mac just tell us all whats up in the first place?

Hmmm...I missed that post by zack. That is a bit of a strange thing to say. :confused:

[Blackened300a]

I would Have Voted but the "I Could Care Less" Option wasn't Included

[MM03MOK]

There are 2 sub-12 entries that when I click on them I get nothing or an avatar.

Again, I will abide by whatever the consensus decides, all I am saying is this: Let's correct all the errors.:)Lidio, MikesMerc, JET, if you're having trouble posting your slips, please let me know. The first step is to post your slip in the Gallery if you don't have access to web space to post your slip. The second step is to copy the timeslip's URL into your Profile. As Javier said, let's correct the errors.

[Petrograde]

looking at it from the stand point of an eyewittness how do you disagree?

If 4 members say it's so then what else is needed?

^^I think Bigdog said it best^^

[MI2QWK4U]

As per Mac's request, the timeslip page has now been adjusted without his timeslip. I want to echo other members here that this has nothing to do with Mac's, or anyone else that was at the track, integrity. Just because a number was displayed in lights at the end of the track that happens to match the slip doesnt mean anything if the timeslip is full of errors. I cant count how many responses that say, If Mac says its so, thats good enough for me, in this thread. That type of statement lends itself to say that most, if not all here believe in Mac's integrity and honesty. I also cant believe people actually believe that a driver can feel the difference between a 12.0 second run and a 11.5 second run, its just not possible to discerne a difference like that either watching or driving a built car like Mac's or Mine. When I went from 460 Hp to 512 Hp, it felt better on the street, but at the track where it made a few tenths of a second difference, I couldnt tell the difference. I am sure that Mac will be back with another slip, just like anyone else here. I too have a handfull of slips that just arent right for one reason or another. I think it is safe to say that anyone venturing into the top ten had better provide a good, accurate, and correct time slip that will have to pass muster in the forum. This thread has gone far enough and has served a role in better understanding timeslips and potential problems with them.

Side note Mary, Mike cant get his slip to post, thats why he put it in its own thread ( http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=301113&postcount=1 ). I tried to fix it through admin but it wont, even left blank it still shows his avitar in the timeslip page.

[MM03MOK]

Side note Mary, Mike cant get his slip to post, thats why he put it in its own thread ( http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=301113&postcount=1 ). I tried to fix it through admin but it wont, even left blank it still shows his avitar in the timeslip page.Thanks Dave. I also tried with Mike's and with Charlie's (Bluerauder). The extension needs to be "jpg" not "JPG" but it didn't make a difference in this case. I even tried erasing all the data and starting again but it made no difference. There is no logical reason why some are working and some not. Logan has to do some work deep inside MM.Net to resolve this. Sorry....I tried.

[MI2QWK4U]

Thanks Dave. I also tried with Mike's and with Charlie's (Bluerauder). The extension needs to be "jpg" not "JPG" but it didn't make a difference in this case. I even tried erasing all the data and starting again but it made no difference. There is no logical reason why some are working and some not. Logan has to do some work deep inside MM.Net to resolve this. Sorry....I tried.


Yep, I tried some of the same things, saved his slip in my gallery, linked it. Even with the space blank in his profile it still showed the avitar. Thats about the limits of my growing knowledge of the Force (light side of course!).