Interesting perspective...

[SergntMac]

Interesting perspective from inside the business...

http://flatratetech.com/pub165.htm

[DEFYANT]

More doom and gloom. Glad I dont bother with the dealer service.

[Hotrauder]

There is no evidence that disputes the truth of those "insights."

[Donny Carlson]

I was told by a couple of Ford Techs who I trust and respect that Ford no longer has Field Service Engineers that are regionally based. These were people who are degreed, trained engineers who could go into a dealership and perform service on a vehicle or diagnose a vehicle, both in as a training method for techs, customer service to an owner having a problem, or investigation of a problem that had cropped up in a vehicle the engineers back at the plant or Detroit wanted to know about. My info is that there are now only 3 FSE's; all are based out of Detroit.

Also, if a dealership's warranty claim ratio exceeds a certain percentage, Ford puts them on a restriction that allows only 1 part per claim being allowed without Ford approval. This results in the dealer only replacing one part knowing more than one is needed, just to not hassle with Ford over the warranty. This, of course, means the customer returns again and has to be inconvenienced with one or more return visits to fix the problem, but the dealer doesn't have to spend all that time arguing with Ford over approving work and replacing parts.

[marauder307]

At least you still have the best trained technicians in the world. Not. With warranty times cut, the dealers have been trying to set up a production line to do as many jobs as they can at a faster rate. By reducing this work to a lesser level they are able to hire helpers to do this work and not have to pay the better trained technicians to do it. This was the key ingredient in a strike in St. Louis that lasted for seven weeks. The new helpers with little or no training would be paid about 1/3 rd as much as a qualified Technician.

I remember this strike well...it dominated the local news in STL last year about this time. Scru'd me outta what would have been the fix for my tapping valves, because all the STL L-M dealer shops were closed, and what was left over didn't have time to do the work.

What's left out of the comment, though, is the fact that real, no-kiddin', qualified techs are a bundle to hire, and even more to keep. Consequently, the dealers don't keep too many of them around, and the ones that ARE there tend to get worked hard. Only a few REAL techs + A whole lotta work in a city of several million folks = lots of overtime, and LOTS of disgruntled techs who are feeling pretty ill-used.

SO...the local union in STL got together, made their usual big union hue-and-cry, and got the dealers to hire a bunch of part-timers and summer-hire types. The dealers looked at this and thought, "Hmmm. This is actually a heckuva idea...we don't have to pay the part-timers NEAR as much as the big-time techs, and because they're not full-time, we don't have to cover big-ticket items---such as medical care---at all. Shoot, this is GREAT idea! HIRE A MILLION OF 'EM!!"

And the local union went "Oops."

And the local union got itself back together and said "Oh union brethren, we done shot ourselves in the foot. Let us go back to the bargaining table and tell those big bad dealers that we want REAL techs only, on a FULL-TIME basis, or at least hire some full-timers who are trainable so we can get some real work done in the shops."

And they went back to the dealers and said, "Do this or we strike."

The dealers said, "Huh. The shop never made us much money anyway. See ya."

So for seven long and stupid weeks, I got to drive home, past Dave Sinclair South County Ford, past South County Dodge (both on Lindbergh Blvd), and watch a bunch of increasingly desperate (not to mention visibly bored) techs walk around with "sandwich signs" telling people not to come to dealers that folks already weren't going to because the shops were closed Only Sunset Ford escaped, and for those seven weeks their shop made money by the giant-size handfuls because they were the only dealer inside the STL area that had an open shop bay. I was never [i]very[i] clear on how that worked out; either Sunset used a different union or their relations with the current one were so good that the union worked out a separate deal and let folks go on to work anyway.

At the end of the day, it was a combination of the union workers getting REAL desperate to get back to work (and their paychecks) and the dealers partially relenting and agreeing to hire more folks on a full-time basis (although they weren't real techs, just folks with some automotive shop background).

I've got a bit more pontification on this subject, but I'll make it a separate post...

[marauder307]

To continue....

The concept of hiring bunches of part-timers as a cost-saving measure is not a new one, at least for me. As someone who's worked on the blue-collar side of the aviation business, I've seen this time and again at a number of FBOs around the country.

(FBO = fixed-base operators, for those of you not in aviation. These are the folks who pump fuel and hangar/service/otherwise tend to general aviation aircraft. I myself have probably pumped 100,000 gallons of avfuel in my lifetime, and I'm on the LOW end of the scale. Some guys I know have been doing the job for a couple of decades now. On with the story.)

The cost of hiring/training/taking care of really good qualified ramp personnel is pretty high; I've never sat down and figured up the numbers myself, but an educated guess indicates that it runs into the tens of thousands. Now multiply that figure by about 8. Why eight? I get that figure from the last FBO I worked at: Montgomery Aviation, Montgomery AL. For the ramp, we had at least 3 guys for 1st shift, 1 guy (sometimes) for swing (10 am to 6 pm), 3 guys for second shift, and then 1 guy for third shift (10 pm to 6 am). Considering that MA is the only FBO in Montgomery, these guys were usually running pretty hard; we had fuel accounts for the National Guard unit, the airlines that service Montgomery Regional Airport, Alabama Forestry Commission, and the state hangar...not to mention all the corporate hangars (roughly 7 or 8 of 'em) and, of course, the usual level of transient traffic.

Now....aviation tends to: a) demand a higher level of training in order to promote a higher level of safety, so even our part-timers weren't allowed on the ramp unless the chief lineman had personally trained them, and b) bring in a heckuva lot more revenue because everything in aviation is vastly more expensive than the automotive world...unless all your cars are Bugattis, and your personal airplane is a lowly Cessna 172.

If you've read this far, you're probably wondering wothhail this has got to do with cars and the business of getting them fixed and paying for good techs to be in the shops, etc. The idea that I'm trying to get across here is that the cost of a really top-flight tech for a franchised dealer (someone who's got the Ford/Lincoln-Mercury/Dodge/Yugo/whatever sign out front) is pretty doggoned high. Once again, I've never sat down and tried to run out the numbers, but when you figure taking in somebody who's probably got an associate's degree in automotive technology, settle on a salary---which is gonna be high enough for them to live on exclusively, and have lots of bennies, like medical/dental care and time and 1/2 overtime pay, not to mention the possibility of upward mobility---then send them to the manufacturer's school, so they can be qualified to work on the products your dealer sells, then outfit 'em with uniforms, possibly even a set of tools (and those ain't gonna be cheap either, although I understand that sometimes it's a hiring prerequisite that folks bring their own)...shoot, that's a he.ll.uva expense!

Oh yeah....let's not forget union dues. That's a whole OTHER subject, and my hands are cramping up so I'm not going to try it today. Suffice it to say, I'm not in favor of 'em...and anybody who wants to discuss it with me can do so offline.

Now multiply that by about 30 or so...no special reason for that number, just pulled it outta my tuckus. I'm taking a s.w.a.g. that that's about the minimum number necessary to run a proper shop. Meanwhile, as a dealer, your new car sales aren't pulling in a lot of money; big dealer markups don't come along THAT often. Used car sales do make pretty fair money, but not all the time. The shop itself, when it's not billing back to the corporation (i.e. Ford) for warranty work, is doing just enough to break even, maybe turn a small profit. Then you've got expenses for rent on the lot, you gotta buy new inventory from the factory, fresh used inventory from the local auction lots,...you're burning through a whole lotta cash in a month.

SO,.....as we come to the end of a VERY long digression from this thread's original premise, the idea is that the dealers are going to cut corners left-right-and center in order to try and keep up profits. The way that happens is they hire lots and lots of part-timers, who may or may not actually know what in the world they're doing, and are working without overtime or medical benefits.

Important stuff to keep in mind....'cause after all, the dealership owner's just GOT to be able to pay for that boat in Grand Cayman, and the private jet out at the local airfield...you know, the one that takes him down to his boat in Grand Cayman....:shake:

[RCSignals]

You have to look at the source.

Flatrate tech used to be a helpful site. They have a complaint, and have focused entirely on it for a number of years now. I don't believe they speak for every dealer tech out there.
I used to have respect for those from that site, until I started reading their posts on BON, and their acerbic replies to people, especially those who do not march in lock step with them.
A year or so ago many from Flatrate tech also became moderators on BON.

[drgnrdr33]

Here's one data point that bolsters the theory of declining dealership service capability:

Quite a few months ago I took my MM into the local LM dealer for an oil change and alignment. The tires were looking OK but I wanted to be sure as I bought a used MM with new tires.

At the end of the day the service manager called and said the oil change price went up $7.00 because the tech had rounded off the oil drain bolt head and it had to be replaced. I argued a bit explaining "You broke it, you fix it" but ended up paying the $7.00 so I could go home. This was strike 1.

A few months later I noticed severe wear on the insides of my front tires. A friend recommended a local independant alignment shop that aligns cars for the local Mercedes, BMW, etc. dealers. After alinging the car the owner showed me the printout and said I came in with just over 1 inch of toe-in. :eek: He said he had never see an alignment this far off except after a collision. I told him that I don't drive around hitting potholes, curbs, etc. He said, "Toe-in is set by the nuts on the tie rods. Hitting a pothole would not have changed it. This was misaligned the last time you took it in." Strike 2 & 3. That dealer has not seen me since and I am back to doing everything I can on the car.

Your mileage may vary..........

[Bradley G]

A very limited perspective indeed.

[TripleTransAm]

You have to look at the source.

In this case, the source is right on the money. Befriend some Ford service techs and service managers, and find out for yourself. Donny's information about Ford's warranty restrictions is also dead on, once again told to me by several employees off the record.

Some of you who were aware of my intentions to pick up a second MM know of my shock when I was told this info about the warranty restrictions... it frustrated me to no end and for a brief while had swayed me completely away from the idea of this purchase and Ford altogether. Only a verbal promise from a respected service manager reassured me enough to go ahead with this purchase, and I know I'm taking a big chance because if his back's up against the wall I know what he'll have to do.

At least it helps explain why I've gotten the runaround on some warranty claims at several dealerships on items that according to this site should be documented beyond belief within Ford's technical ranks.

Flat rate is a concept I'd heard about for YEARS from the F-body community and from family members working as techs. However, this warranty restriction bit is a new one, and most likely will be adopted by other troubled North American manufacturers as they too try to extract themselves from the end results of their greedy mismanagement.

That factory bumper-to-bumper warranty's not looking so reassuring after all, eh?

[RCSignals]

Service and attitude towards service will, and does, vary from dealership to dealership. This is not unique to Ford dealers.
Dealerships are independent, and to some extent really just do whatever they want. This extends to sales as well.

With service dealers are also 'confined' to some extent by policies of the manufacturer. A free ticket even for warranty service does not exist for every problem, from ANY auto manufacturer.
I have befriended some Ford serce techs and managers for myself, as well as dealership owners and managers.
Now befriend some Toyota, Honda, Nissan, GM, etc service techs and service managers, and see what you find out. You just may find Ford's horrible policies looking not so terrible after all. :eek: