A very dark view of GM [Archive] - MercuryMarauder.net Forums

dwasson

11-21-2005, 11:02 AM

From: http://thetruthaboutcars.com/content/1132334760812535193/index.php

GM Death Watch 41: Fiddling Around

18 November 2005
By Robert Farago

"I'd just like to set the record straight here and now," Rabid Rick Wagoner wrote in an email circulated yesterday on GM's intranet. "There is absolutely no plan, strategy or intention for GM to file for bankruptcy.” Obviously, the growing suspicion that GM is heading for a cataclysmic financial failure prompted Wagoner tell the world that The Man in Charge isn’t playing kissy-kissy with a bankruptcy judge behind the bike shed. At the precise moment when Wagoner should have been rallying his troops with a bold survival strategy, he chose to declare the fact that he's not [currently] negotiating surrender. Wrong answer.

If you still believe that Rabid Rick and his cronies can save GM, I suggest you surrender that opinion now and join the industry analysts wise to Wagoner’s wicked ways. Every time there’s trouble at the mill-- an occurrence whose increasing frequency is only matched by its escalating intensity-- Rick announces Something Is Being Done. The scandalous manipulation surrounding last quarter’s financial statement, when Rick revealed the bogus United Auto Workers (UAW) health care “giveback” on the same day GM lost $1.6b, is a perfect example of Wagoner’s MO. It’s got the point where any executive assertion of corrective action signals yet another financial disaster.

So when The Detroit News (DTN) duly reports that “Ailing GM speeds up fix-it plan”, it’s a sure sign that The General is closer than ever to flat lining. As part of this nominal plan, whose bullet-pointed description is only marginally better than “lower costs, increase sales”, Wagoner vows to cut 25k hourly employees by ‘08. Only GM’s contract with the UAW prohibits plant closures until September 2007. And that means Wagoner actually intends to “idle” the excess workers, or try to lure them into early retirement. Either way, the employees will be almost as big a drain on GM’s resources as if they were building cars no one wants.

Meanwhile, back in Wagoner’s email, The General’s general went to great pains to show he understands the gravity of the situation he’s put the company in, and the need to sort it all out, you know, soon. Rabid Rick acknowledged that GM's North American meltdown created losses which are “unsustainable, for sure, and require a comprehensive strategy... that must be implemented promptly and effectively." In case you haven’t guessed it by now, Rabid Rick is saving this meta plan for next quarter’s financial statement, when the latest red ink report reveals the full extent of GM's arterial spray.

Hey, if Rabid Rick Wagoner’s got a cure-all to keep GM from the corporate crash cart, how come the North America's Vice President of Vehicle Sales, Service and Marketing doesn’t know about it? DTN reporter Brett Clanton recently got some face time with Monster Mark LaNeve, and asked LaNeve to outline Wagoner’s plan to revitalize GM’s sales and marketing. Here's what he got:

“What he means by that is doing a much better job of delivering eight distinct brands to the marketplace that all have unique target customer groups. He's talking about focusing the brands. He's talking about my plan, which is to go to market with value orientation rather than incentive orientation. Do better in the key markets such as the coasts where we've lost a lot of ground in recent years. And then, have a world-class dealer base.”

While we’re glad to see LaNeve wrest ownership for GM’s recently abandoned “Total Value Promise” from his boss, Monster Mark’s remarks indicate that Wagoner has yet to hit refresh on his turnaround browser. Even if you accept LaNeve’s spinvaguery, there’s no evidence whatsoever that Wagoner’s crew are doing anything to conquer the coasts or implement brand differentiation. In fact, the recent revelation that GM is preparing 14 crossover vehicles for its eight brands indicates the exact opposite. And if GM’s front end is in such disarray, what hope is there for sorting things out in the back?

None. All GM's management maneuvering brings to mind the connection between an ancient Roman conflagration and Emperor Nero’s musical abilities. Big Ron Gettelfinger's belligerent remarks regarding the UAW's negotiations with parts maker Delphi reaffirms our contention that Delphi will be crippled by a strike in December, which will cripple GM roughly five minutes after that. Did I say cripple? Perhaps I should have used the word “kill”.

Buried inside the DTN story on Wagoner’s bankruptcy denial is a startling revelation; a factoid that obviates any move GM’s brass could make to save the company’s ass. “A Delphi-related shutdown at GM would force the automaker to tap into the $19 billion in cash it has on hand. The investment firm UBS Securities estimates that GM would run through its cash hoard in 10 weeks.” In other words, our GM Death Watch is heading for its inevitable conclusion. For sure.

Mike Poore

11-21-2005, 11:22 AM

From: http://thetruthaboutcars.com/content/1132334760812535193/index.php

GM Death Watch 41: Fiddling Around ... our GM Death Watch is heading for its inevitable conclusion. For sure.

Geez, Dan, and here I thought the Dilbert cartoons were about the outfit I work for. He's a PHB clone, for sure. :beatnik:

Big House

11-21-2005, 02:22 PM

I Think The Closing 5 Plants Effectly Laying Off Over 30,000 People Will Stave Off That Failure.

MERCMAN

11-21-2005, 04:16 PM

"Whats good for General Motors is good for the country"

I remember that quote, seems to have passed its relevance :)

RF Overlord

11-21-2005, 04:51 PM

“What he means by that is doing a much better job of delivering eight distinct brands to the marketplace that all have unique target customer groups. He's talking about focusing the brands. He's talking about my plan, which is to go to market with value orientation rather than incentive orientation. Do better in the key markets such as the coasts where we've lost a lot of ground in recent years. And then, have a world-class dealer base.”

This is one of the most egregious examples of obfuscation I've ever had the pleasure of reading. It only took this cretin 77 words to say ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...

If this is the best that GM can come up with, they're boned...

And another thing...

"There is absolutely no plan, strategy or intention for GM to file for bankruptcy.”

The last time I heard a staement like that that was from a local radio station's new owners...they said they had no plans to change a thing, they liked the station the way it was. Within 6 months, the call letters had changed, the format had changed, and all the on-air personalities were gone.

I look forward to watching the bankruptcy proceedings on CNBC, Rick...

TripleTransAm

11-21-2005, 05:00 PM

"Whats good for General Motors is good for the country"

I remember that quote, seems to have passed its relevance :)

Actually, many are still referring to it. And they are genuinely frightened by the prospect of the two still being linked in some way. Of course I've read that many government officials are downplaying the risk of the two being in step.

However, all it takes is public fear, and the stock market might take a dump. Also, GM is more than cars, I wonder how their subsidiaries are going to hurt if the big boat sinks...

dwasson

11-21-2005, 05:26 PM

Value orientation... for years critics have been blasting GM for high retail prices that are always subject to rebates. I don't know about you, but when comparing prices in automotive magazines, I never see a little asterisk denoting "not actually the real prices, rebates will apply" when it comes to GM cars. I've claimed GM lost touch with the buying public's needs sometime in the 70s (we don't care what you want to buy, this is what you WILL buy) and that prompted the import invasion, but are they SO out of touch as to disregard such open criticism? Is top management pride so thick? Or is top management so dense that this was actually realized years ago and it's taken this long to propagate down to the actual do'ers?

It looks to me like the Big 3 have spent the last 25 years training their customer base that the price is meaningless. Why should anyone buy a new American car when they first come out? If you wait you'll get a rebate.

If they have to pay you to buy the car there is a real problem.

klmore

11-21-2005, 07:11 PM

First off I have worked at GM in a full time management position and I quit. All of my friends thought I was nuts to quit such a great job, but no one asked why?

It was easy for me to see from the inside that GM could not continue to go on in it's current form. It isn't possible. It was a tough decision at the time, but it is easier to get out when I was young than to wait 20 years to lose my job. There is too much waste, too little motivation, and to much of an entitlement mentality going on there.

Think airline industry. Anyone who thinks otherwise has his or her head in the sand.

Basic economics. In a global economy we are increasing the pay in foreign countries because the demand is high for foreign goods and labor is cheap. Until the pay in India, China, and other developing countries balances out with the pay scale in America we will not be competitive. We either drop the amount we pay people to turn a screw, or we increase demand for our products it is that simple. It isn't a pleasant thought. :cry:

Donny Carlson

11-21-2005, 08:23 PM

So, 8 distinct target groups. Are their 8 distinct types of buyers? Used to be that they had 5 brands and some trucks.

Good bye Oldsmobile.

Hello Saturn (Spring Hill goes Bye Bye in '07)
Hello Hummer

Are XLR's selling? The V-series Caddies, the CTS-V didn't sell very well, makes you wonder if the STS and XLR versions will.

The Solstice is a hit... because they kept the cost low (comparatively).

Are Colbalt SS's selling? I see them in show rooms with wings, Recaro seats from the factory. But haven't seen one on the streets mixing it up with Civics and Nissans. Seen more SRT-4's

I don't get this. Daimler-Chrysler has escaped the foot-shooting. Somebody send the boys at GM a clue.

grzellmer

11-21-2005, 08:45 PM

Here is the REAL sequence.

1) UAW at Delphi strikes
2) GM declares bankrupcy 30 seconds later.

GM won't have a choice. They don't have the cash to weather a
prolonged strike. The UAW will have killed the golden goose. Wish
it wasn't so, but the global economy is a pretty efficient killer of the
mortally wounded.

This is one of the most egregious examples of obfuscation I've ever had the pleasure of reading. It only took this cretin 77 words to say ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...

If this is the best that GM can come up with, they're boned...

And another thing...

"There is absolutely no plan, strategy or intention for GM to file for bankruptcy.”

The last time I heard a staement like that that was from a local radio station's new owners...they said they had no plans to change a thing, they liked the station the way it was. Within 6 months, the call letters had changed, the format had changed, and all the on-air personalities were gone.

I look forward to watching the bankruptcy proceedings on CNBC, Rick...

RCSignals

11-21-2005, 10:32 PM

Whatever happens, it will be interesting to watch. GM isn't the only one with similar problems.

Some people thought making China a 'most favoured trading nation' would be good for the US, the economy, and business. It was going to 'open new markets' for US made goods.
Didn't anyone know what was really going to happen?

That isn't even taking into consideration the direction of US automakers in general, their slow realisation that there would be an end to the 'SUV' tunnel. and the need to be ready with product to replace them, etc etc etc

bigslim

11-21-2005, 11:05 PM

Here is the REAL sequence.

1) UAW at Delphi strikes
2) GM declares bankrupcy 30 seconds later.

GM won't have a choice. They don't have the cash to weather a
prolonged strike. The UAW will have killed the golden goose. Wish
it wasn't so, but the global economy is a pretty efficient killer of the
mortally wounded.
I will not let you go on about the union. Remember, it is the upper management that has made all bad decisions. Being a U.A.W. member we follow the course that management lays out. Only after the company falls on hard time do they then come to us for advise. I am reminded of a saying that goes, " Management has the right to manage or mismanage the way they seem fit." The union has provided a comfortable living for my family for the last four generations. I am sure that a lot of you grew up in a union household. Remember back then and think where your family may have been without a union. Never knock the union. A lot of us have more education then you can ever imagine. Knock the government for never leveling out the playing field. We allow anyone to peddle their wares here but we are resticted on what we send over seas. This is the real problem.

klmore

11-22-2005, 10:52 AM

Remember back then and think where your family may have been without a union. Never knock the union. A lot of us have more education then you can ever imagine. Knock the government for never leveling out the playing field.

I did grow up in a Union household and they have served me well, but I feel in most cases the Unions have overplayed their hands. I now pay my guys well not because of a Union, but because if I don't I won't keep good workers in my business. This isn't 1910 I can't abuse my employee and expect them to work and be productive.

Also it isn't the governments job to change the playing field to make it fair. It is the company's (and Unions) job to be competitive, adapt to new markets, and change with the times. In GM's case neither the company, nor the Union care much for change.

Ozz

11-22-2005, 11:16 AM

I work in Dearborn for a large supplier to Ford and I have mixed feelings about the whole UAW bashing that is going on.

On one hand, the writing was on the wall back in '03 when the current labor contract was signed so there is no reason for GM (or Ford, Delphi, Visteon) management to act like legacy and labor costs are a surprise. If they are a surprise, those guys are not doing their jobs. It's a smoke screen that allows them to blame the union and perhaps bust them once and for all.

On the other hand, non skilled line workers are making way too much money and receiving benefits only rivaled by our government workers (if that tells you anything). It is not their fault that a drastic change is coming but the fact is that in the past when the automakers were doing well, the UAW demanded their 'fair share'. Now that the automakers are on the verge of bankruptsy, the line workers should share the pain. I have a feeling that within 10 minutes of the Delphi labor contract being approved by the UAW, GM, Ford, Visteon, and other large suppliers will be demanding the same cuts in pay and significant benefit reductions for rank and file.

It's going to get ugly for sure.

prchrman

11-22-2005, 11:44 AM

Over paid execs...including rediculous bonuses...poor quality vehicles..over priced vehicles...the list goes on and on...including some union stuff that makes no sense...the issue with unions IMNSHO is not the wages it demands but the confrontational attitude they take as it being us against them...worker vs management...I want everyone to make as much as they can so they can raise their children well and in industry wages account only 10 to 15% of the cost of the product so it is really not a big deal...the big deal to me is the resentment directed towards mangement by unions tends to keep people from co-oping and making a better product...I worked in a union, machinist and aerospace workers and they nearly fired me...not the company but tyhe union because I did not take a shop steward with me to meet the plant superintendant over an issue...issue was solved in 5 min. without the idiot we had for a steward...and while I am on this NO union has ever produced jobs without some company footing the bill...companies make jobs not unions...and I am not totally against unions at all...they do serve a purpose and I believe all of america has higher wages because of their efforts...as to upper management...the first thing they want to cut is people and their wages and like I said before it is a small percentage of the whole...why don't they cut their own wages...say from 5 mil down to 4.5 mil...Also this will hurt America, no doubt, thousands of suppliers to GM will go under and never recover...sad sad sad...US goverment will not allow it to go under...to painful...also all us Furd guys don't get to happy because I can see this happening to the blue oval also if they keep going in the same direction...willie

Ozz

11-22-2005, 12:20 PM

Ford is much closer to going under than the public knows... not as close as GM but still in dangerous territory.
Ford gave in to Visteon and took back the loser business, GM did not take back the loser business from Delphi and will pay dearly. The only hope Ford has is for GM to 'become an example for others'. When you help usher your biggest supplier into bankruptsy, nothing good can happen. Delphi was destined to fail from inception. It was not a matter of 'if' but of 'when'.

Suppliers (including the one I work for) are going to Ford right now telling them that they need price increases due to material costs (read: petroleum prices), etc and that we can no longer make the parts for the prices that have been cast upon us (I say that because of the 3 to 5% price decreases that Ford forces on their suppliers each year). It's quickly becoming a 'take it or leave it' proposition... If suppliers are not allowed to make money on parts, they'll go the way of Delphi. Ford knows that they can't win a situation like that - and thus the Visteon bailout.

I would like nothing better than to find gainful employment outside the auto industry... the big 3 are going the way of American steel and airplane companies... going, going, gone.

dwasson

11-22-2005, 01:23 PM

US goverment will not allow it to go under.

Why not? I can quote Robert Heinlein:

"There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or a corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute nor common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back, for their private benefit."

prchrman

11-22-2005, 02:09 PM

Why not? I can quote Robert Heinlein:

"

I am not saying right or wrong...just that GM will get bailed out if needed...it would really hurt the US economy with so many suppliers going under...30,000 people for GM will translate to probably over 100,000 others getting the axe...why is simple-what will it cost the gov if GM went under...the price of unemployment benefits...lost tax revenue...etc. etc. etc...again I am not saying I believe in gov subsidizing companies sorry management policies but just that it will happen...willie

texascorvette

11-22-2005, 09:21 PM

If wages are only 10 - 15 percent of the cost of a car, then the folks who make the steel, the tires, the glass, and all the other components that go into constructing an automobile must be working for the hell of it.

It also doesn't help GM's or Ford's chances at survival when there is upwards of $2000 of the price of every vehicle they make that goes to UAW retirees. It also doesn't help the cause when they have to pay the folks they lay off 90% of what they would have made when they were clocked in--there's no evidence that any of them actually spend 8 hours working. No wonder the guys with seniority bid to be laid off. Beats working for a living.

You can't blame the members of the UAW for trying to get all they can out of GM or Ford. You can blame idiot management for caving in to ridiculous demands over the last 50 years. Management cowardice has allowed the UAW to kill the golden goose.

Now, the only way to correct the last 50 year's of management stupidity is to declare bancruptcy. That will allow the automakers to abrogate their asinine labor contracts and reduce their payments for retiree medical and pension plans to a level where they will be able to compete with the rest of the world's auto manufacturers. It's going to hurt a lot of people, but that will be the only way to keep as many jobs as possible from disappearing forever.
Over paid execs...including rediculous bonuses...poor quality vehicles..over priced vehicles...the list goes on and on...including some union stuff that makes no sense...the issue with unions IMNSHO is not the wages it demands but the confrontational attitude they take as it being us against them...worker vs management...I want everyone to make as much as they can so they can raise their children well and in industry wages account only 10 to 15% of the cost of the product so it is really not a big deal...the big deal to me is the resentment directed towards mangement by unions tends to keep people from co-oping and making a better product...I worked in a union, machinist and aerospace workers and they nearly fired me...not the company but tyhe union because I did not take a shop steward with me to meet the plant superintendant over an issue...issue was solved in 5 min. without the idiot we had for a steward...and while I am on this NO union has ever produced jobs without some company footing the bill...companies make jobs not unions...and I am not totally against unions at all...they do serve a purpose and I believe all of america has higher wages because of their efforts...as to upper management...the first thing they want to cut is people and their wages and like I said before it is a small percentage of the whole...why don't they cut their own wages...say from 5 mil down to 4.5 mil...Also this will hurt America, no doubt, thousands of suppliers to GM will go under and never recover...sad sad sad...US goverment will not allow it to go under...to painful...also all us Furd guys don't get to happy because I can see this happening to the blue oval also if they keep going in the same direction...willie

bigslim

11-22-2005, 10:14 PM

I am so tired of hearing you guys say that the union is to blame. I have seen first hand what the management at my job does.

I have seen how the upper management will schedule their conferences in differrent vacation spots. The expenses that are allowed for these "training exercises" would blow your mind. Also, why is it that all the executives need so many free cars per year. Some get three to five cars per year. They only drive one at a time.

I was there when management bought Easy-Lube only to sell later for half of what they paid for it. I was there when management bought Jaguar. A company to this day has yet to post a profit. I was there when they bought Land Rover. A high price sport utility line that will compete against own Lincoln SUV line. Just recently has Land Rover posted any kind of a profit. Did the union make these purchases? I think not.

Another thing that we "union members" didn't do was let our car line lapse so badly that when the trucks stop selling we didn't have a car that anyone wanted. We didn't kill the MM, Mgt did. GM and Ford put so much into their high profit trucks that when the time came to sell cars no one wanted the old dinosours sitting on thier lots.

At my plant, we didn't ask for the wrong machinary. Management bought what they thought was the right equipment even though we advised against it. Now that machinary is sitting because they found out it was junk. we go in do what management has lined us up to do. There are times that we do it their way and have to go back and do it again because they didn't want to hear from us at the beginning the right way to do the job.

When the company does well we don't give ourselves big bonuses and huge pay raises. Take a look at K-Mart and see how they gave their CEO a huge bonus and then he left.

I will not let anyone look down thier noses at the union and say that we are to blame for the economy. When you want to blame the union take time out and think about the fat cats at the top that make all the wrong decisions and then take the money and run.

True, the union is not what it used to be. Most of the time I handle my problems at work myself. There are some that do abuse the system. That is in any level at any company. I will say that union made it possible for me to go the trade school and learn my trade. It has also made it possible for me to go back to school and work on my degree. It provided me and a lot of others in different businesses with a lot of things that I am greatful for. You should be too.

RCSignals

11-22-2005, 10:43 PM

There was a time that Ford was it's own largest part and component supplier. Indeed processor of raw materials, and recycler of used materials.

There was good reason for that. Ford changed direction on this in more recent years, and now to some extent they are feeling the effects of ignoring their own history.

Ford commonly had three suppliers for most parts. At least one of those suppliers was always Ford itself.

BoxDriver2

11-22-2005, 10:54 PM

I will not let you go on about the union. Remember, it is the upper management that has made all bad decisions. Being a U.A.W. member we follow the course that management lays out. Only after the company falls on hard time do they then come to us for advise. I am reminded of a saying that goes, " Management has the right to manage or mismanage the way they seem fit." The union has provided a comfortable living for my family for the last four generations. I am sure that a lot of you grew up in a union household. Remember back then and think where your family may have been without a union. Never knock the union. A lot of us have more education then you can ever imagine. Knock the government for never leveling out the playing field. We allow anyone to peddle their wares here but we are resticted on what we send over seas. This is the real problem.

I agree. My great grandfather put in around 42 years at truck and bus in Pontiac, and my parents both put in well over 20 years each at GM. It is not the unions for the most part. The unions exist to give the worker what they deserve in all fairness. Everything plays a part, and everything has a "bad apple" somewhere.

The UAW provided alot of advancement for my family, and for myself. My family was loyal to GM. Every new car was a GM car. I was always defending the unions and GM/Ford/DCX in miscellaneous discussions. GM and the UAW provided for some of my education. Every little bit helps in my situation. I wanted to work for one of the big 3 after graduation to give back. People often forget that DCX/Ford/GM are in the top of their league in providing for education [grants, scholarships, and other awards] to make this country a better place to be. It is a shame that some of the people who receive these benefits turn their backs on the companies that gave them a new life and only can insult. I am a bit worn out from trying to argue with the people who say the unions and the employees drag the companies down [and not the executives!].

It is, what has been stated multiple times, on multiple forums - company management for the most part. The stock holders are not pleased with Rick Wagoner. It will only go down hill, while the bonuses handed out to company executives will still be there.

I fear the worst. Graduating with a degree in engineering really doesn't leave much room for Ford/DCX/GM oppurtunities. It seems everything will become Nissan and Toyota.

I suppose that is probably why I did not get the supervisor job I applied for at GM, because i have a conscience and wouldn't pick the options that did the employees over. There will be other oppurtunities.

As far as suppliers are concerned...I had a similar discussion with numerous people since Delphi split from GM and even before it happened. All of us came to the same agreement that Delphi will not survive. Mismanagement and more executives who only wanted their oversized salary. Now for Visteon, don't they want to be pulled back under Ford?

Was it not an exec at Delphi or another struggling company who said he would not take a salary that year, but pulled in a bonus worth a few hundred million dollars from the year before? Really, these people can't have a conscience with the way they live.

Sorry for the "rant" if you want to refer to it as such. Enjoy the road.

RCSignals

11-22-2005, 10:58 PM

................ It seems everything will become Nissan and Toyota.
...................

that's when I stop buying/driving new cars

BoxDriver2

11-22-2005, 11:19 PM

that's when I stop buying/driving new cars

I'd like to think that. But look at everyone else out there. I've seen a huge array of Nissan/Toyota/etc in the lots at Ford, GM, and DCX. Brand loyalty seems to be in large, declining. Sad sight.

[Before anyone decides to ask what I drive, i'll put it out there. I drive 2 old volvos i bought used. You probably think I am full of it now for the above statements, but i mean every word.]

bigslim

11-22-2005, 11:32 PM

It funny that you say that the Big Three put so much into education. This is something that I already knew. What does the foreign car makers put into our education systems?

Here is another example of what the Big Three does as well as unions. When the different disasters hit this year the domestic car makers help provide aid and other resources. What did the foreign car makers provide? I have seen the domestic car makers come thorough in times of need.

People forget that buying foreign it not only bites the hands of those that work there but so many others in the community.

One last thing I will say about the union is that I feel safer working at Ford. I don't have to work unsafe conditions or do something dangerous because someone in management told me to do it. I can leave my plant at the end of my shift the sameway I entered it at the beginning of my shift.

bigslim

11-22-2005, 11:38 PM

Tell you something else that bugs me. Seeing someone with a Honda or a Toyota with an American flag waving from it. That really shows some patriotism.

STLR FN

11-23-2005, 12:33 AM

Slim you forgot those that work at the Big 3 and drive a Toyota or Honda to work. Now that is showing union/company pride.
Tell you something else that bugs me. Seeing someone with a Honda or a Toyota with an American flag waving from it. That really shows some patriotism.

Lets not forget, what happens to unionized labor has a trickle down effect throughout the whole economy and I'm not referring to just GM either. My wages get cut I spend less at your business.

Ozz

11-23-2005, 07:12 AM

bigslim,
You can't really be saying that mostly unskilled laborers deserve the kind of pay and benefits they have been receiving for the last 30 years can you? When someone goes to a 4 year university and gets a Bachelors degree and makes the same salary as the uneducated line worker, something is wrong.

Hmmm... A Toyota or a Honda with an American flag on it... Would those have been vehicles made in the USA by American workers? How do you feel about all the Mazda's, Volvo's, Land Rovers that were made overseas but are imported to the US? What about all the Ford, GM, Chrysler products that are made in Mexico? I think the Fusion and it's derivitaves are ALL made in Hermosillo, Mexico.... Why is that alright but a Honda made in Ohio or a Camry made in Kentucky is not? I think the UAW is misguided - they should be up-in-arms about vehicles made outside the USA, not the ones that are made by transplant companies in the US by American workers....

I was in the visitor parking lot of Wayne Assembly (produce Ford Focus) awhile back and the security guard was harassing some guy about parking his 'Made in Ohio by Americans' Honda Accord in the visitors lot while a Mazda, made in Japan, wasn't even noticed... How does the union explain this? Is the opinion the union told you to have one of acceptance of all things under the Ford umbrella regardless of where they were made? What do YOU think about this?

I have been on both sides of this - I worked as an engineer for Toyota for 5.5 years and now have been with a large tier 1 supplier to Ford for almost 6 years. I have spent a significant amount of time in both Asian and Domestic assembly plants. Believe me, there is a lot to be said about how the line workers conduct themselves and how that relates to quality, safety, improvement in efficency, etc. The workers difference in attitude I have witnessed alone (both blue collar and white collar) ensures that the big three will continue to fail.

jerrym3

11-23-2005, 07:30 AM

There's a lot of blame to go around.

Blame the American auto companies for putting out poor quality products in the 70/80s when compared to the foreign competition. Also, let's not forget the years of unexciting US cars while the American auto companies fell over themselves to bring out more and more different SUV models. (How the heck many different SUV models does a company need to make?)

Blame the unions for demanding, and getting, benefits that were fundable when the auto makers were riding high, but aren't so fundable now. (Although, there seems to be some backing off by the unions now that reality has set in.) On the other hand, blame many American companies for ridiculous upper management pay and perk levels. (The head of AT&T loses his job in the SBC/AT&T merger and leaves with 30 million dollars!!!!!!!!!!!)

Blame us consumers for overlooking the American product now even though it has regained a higher quality level. Is there a better deal out there than the Crown Vic/Mercury Gran Marquis? They are reasonably priced, roomy, quiet, go 100.000 miles with ease, get decent mileage; however, as we all know, if you own one (along with owning a Buick), you have to live with a certain stigma.

Except for one GM purchase (65 Corvette), all my new car purchases have been Ford products.

Have they all been great cars and trouble free? No. Have they been so bad that I wish I had bought a Toyota/Nissan/Honda? No.

It's easy to see why the middle class is getting squeezed out. How many plumbers, electrician, carpenters, nursing aids, and auto mechanic positions can we support for those who do not have the means or desire to attend college and start out in a low paying job, unless daddy/mommy is a CEO/CFO?

What happens to the rest of the American working population as decent paying manufacturing jobs keep vanishing?

Darned if I know...................

Ozz

11-23-2005, 07:43 AM

Sorry if my last post was a little hard on the union... I most certainly recognise that my wife and I enjoy better benefits because our employers have union employees with UAW contracts. She had election day and veterans day off this month.... because it's in the union contract - so they gave those days to everyone.

The issue I see with pointing to executive salaries as a large contributor to the problems of the big 3 and suppliers is that, yea, it is a huge sum of money for one person but when it's compared to the cost of all the union retirees and 'job bank' people, it is just a drop in the bucket. We're talking a few million bucks for an executive vs. numbers in the BILLIONS spent supporting former employees and job bankers... 1000:1 is the ratio...

Do I think these executives deserve the kind of pay they are getting - HELL NO but the fact is that these payouts are an incredibly small part of the problem.

bigslim

11-23-2005, 08:55 AM

I am not saying that some people deserve the pay they get. I am just saying that we all have to suffer now because of the poor decisions made by management. The Ford family runs their car company just as well as they run the Lion organization.

grzellmer

11-23-2005, 09:22 AM

Slim

I agree that it is unfair to "paint" the UAW with a broad brush. They are not the sole source of GM's problems. I completely admit it wasn't a union decision to build the Pontiac Aztek. (And other hidious vehicles.) Management has been just as culpable by agreeing to contracts with workers that can't be delivered and other moronic decisions.

On the other hand I have been in a number of Ford, GM, Visteon and Delphi facilities and can speak with first hand experience of the resistance union members have to new equipment or processes. Things that would improve their efficiency and enable them to remain competitive. I've seen the UAW dig in their heels and have whole operations outsourced to third party logistics providers. Yes, the efficiency increase would have cost UAW jobs but the facilities would have become competitive and the balance of the workforce remain UAW.

In visiting these operations I have met numerous UAW members that were concerned and diligent in their jobs. Some were not but they were in the minority. Suprisingly it was often the union leadership that was the most inflexible.

Boiled down, it appears as though the US auto industry needs to evolve. The old relationships and agreements need to end. Wages and benefits need to adjust to be the value they bring to an organization. This is something the rest of the country has already had to deal with.

All this is not to bash or flame. I would like to be able to buy an American replacement for my MM in a few years. To do that I need GM, Ford, DCX AND the UAW to survive.

Gary

I will not let you go on about the union. Remember, it is the upper management that has made all bad decisions. Being a U.A.W. member we follow the course that management lays out. Only after the company falls on hard time do they then come to us for advise. I am reminded of a saying that goes, " Management has the right to manage or mismanage the way they seem fit." The union has provided a comfortable living for my family for the last four generations. I am sure that a lot of you grew up in a union household. Remember back then and think where your family may have been without a union. Never knock the union. A lot of us have more education then you can ever imagine. Knock the government for never leveling out the playing field. We allow anyone to peddle their wares here but we are resticted on what we send over seas. This is the real problem.

TripleTransAm

11-23-2005, 10:25 AM

that's when I stop buying/driving new cars

I'm just one data point, but it's because of my experience with this car that I'll most likely never be able to afford a new car, much less WANT one (at least one from the traditional "Big Three" as it now stands).

I've had ground wires hanging completely loose (no evidence of ever having been secured), wiring harness sliced to the point of shorting my PCM, recurring seat squeaking (I am NOT small, but I'm by no means among the biggest around here), groaning hood on hot days which cannot seem to be adjusted without resulting in a flopping hood, power window switch flaking out, headlight fogging, front suspension creaking (bad torquing at the factory), failed belt tensioner, failed alternator, failed battery after 10 months of use, blue smoke at startup, excessive ticking in one cylinder head, RPM surging when turning the wheel at idle speeds, lower steering column shaft failure, recurring loose seat cover flaps, and a host of other smaller stuff that I won't go into detail here.

If I hadn't had to endure HALF of the stuff listed above, I'd have not hesitated to keep buying domestic. As it is, I'm trying my luck with a second MM based partly on the fact I love the car as a concept, partly because there appear to be SOME trouble-free MMs out there, and partly because I got a great deal on this 2nd one with 13 months of factory warranty left.

No car is perfect, they ALL have their 'things'. However, all I can do is look around me and take stock of those NOT having any major or annoying issues with their cars, and make note of what brand of cars they are. I've kept pretty quiet among my coworkers with regards to the problems I've endured with my 1st car, mostly to avoid ridicule (they know how fired up I was when I first got it, and how disappointed I was when the car left me stranded not more than 2 months after the purchase). However, my troubles become apparent in the number of days I've had to take off work to address failures with my 1st car.

Let's say a less-physically-active male marries a world-travelling marathon runner but after many bitter fueds, it ends up in a messy $$ divorce. Unless we're talking a masochistic individual, will the guy want to marry another marathon runner? By the same token, most of us are looking for trouble-free motoring experiences and when they don't get them, the image is shattered (and it takes a LONG time to rebuild trust... just look at how many of us keep prejudices against certain brands even if it's been close to 30 years since owning one).

Smokie

11-23-2005, 11:24 AM

You can finger point all you want; right thru the demise of GM, probably Ford will be next. I'm not really sure what comfort you will gather from "really" knowing whose fault it was.

Everything that goes wrong is always "somebody" elses fault, have you guys noticed that? Nobody ever stands up and says "It was my fault"

I make a living going in to people's homes, about 2200 homes per year on average and I have been doing this for 34 years; I have a good idea what people buy and what they don't buy.

Most Americans buy what they want from whomever sells it for less, they "claim" that quality of the product and service after the sale is important to them; in most cases "this is a lie". Why don't we take a poll and see how many members we have who either they or their spouse will not set foot in a Walmart store.

If Americans don't want to buy cars made by American companies....whose going to make them?????

prchrman

11-23-2005, 11:41 AM

I have bought 2 new vehicles in my life a 2000 Honda CRV and a 2003 Mercury Marauder...the CRV has now got 98,000 miles on it and is driven by my daughter since about 50,000 miles...it has been a real pain to up keep...NOT...the large nut on the cigarette lighter came loose and I had to retighten it...that's it...the 2003 Marauder has 49,000 miles and the water pump quit, oil leak from a small seal, driver seat is cut from a sharp corner under the leather, front of seat bottom on drivers side is just flapping in the wind, dash rattles, something squeaks under the dash, water stands in the area around the gas cap, the paint is pitted, had the front rotors turned twice (way undersized), front end aligned and last of all on the 3rd or 4th set of tires (cannot remember). So from my view point it is not even close to which has been more user friendly and less costly...and that makes me very sad because I want to buy american but now adays what is really american...our MMs were made in Canada...close enough I guess...will I ever buy another new vehicle?...without a big change of mind there is no way...loose too much $ just driving off the stinking dealers lot and too much of a hassle to get warranty claims fixed...and still after all this I really love my MM...I honestly do...the ups out weigh the downs...good gas mileage, comfortable beyond belief, large trunk, great performance, looks great (no closer than 10ft.) and best of all-the nice people I have met on this site...I work for the company that makes Johnson and Evinrude boat motors and I do understand quality issues...there is a quality measurement for boat motors and it is called 'out of the box'...ie how does it run straight out of the box and how hard is it to rig to the boat...we were behind Honda and Yamaha for years but one day someone decided to do something about it and now we rate as high if not higher than our competitors...we are a smaller company that the big 3...but...it can be done if workers and management can see that the survival of their company depends on everyone doing a better job and having attention to details...we did it and I am proud of that...we are gaining market share every year and putting more people to work in America...if the big 3 want business they have to earn it back...it is just like trust and respect...it is earned and it takes a while to get it back...you have to make the effort and quit blaming someone else because they make a better product and people buy it...people are not going to buy crap just because it is America crap...willie

bigslim

11-23-2005, 01:41 PM

I think one thing that most of you forget about is that a lot of the problems on cars is not the fault of the automaker but the fault of the vendored part. Most of the recalls made on cars are due to a supplied part by some other company. Is the car company to blame for this? Yes and no. Yes, the car company should have gotten a better supplier. No, because when the car company agreed to do business with that supplier it was in good faith that they would be supplied with a quality part.

I will also say that the domestic dealer network hurts destroys a lot of there business. American car dealerships suck for the most part. Some do shop elsewhere just because of this one reason.

I could sit here all day and say who is to blame for the demise of these companies. I will say that when our contract comes up in 07' there will be changes. I don't mind giving back as long as those in decision making jobs give back also. Also, there has to be a major restructuring of jobs at the top. We need people to make the right decisions at the right time. We also need people who have a passion for cars, not bookwork and numbers.

Bluerauder

11-23-2005, 01:41 PM

Most Americans buy what they want from whomever sells it for less, they "claim" that quality of the product and service after the sale is important to them; in most cases "this is a lie". Why don't we take a poll and see how many members we have who either they or their spouse will not set foot in a Walmart store.
I agree with your basic premise; but quality has to factor in somewhere. People will not willingly buy junk just because it is cheaper. :rolleyes:

Case in point .... The lady next door to me was in the market for a small SUV to replace her aging Plymouth Minivan. She looked at several and came down to a choice between the Ford Escape and the Honda CR-V. She bought the Honda CR-V because it offered "more value" for the money. It was "cheaper overall by a couple thousand and offered a better interior and more features" (her words). Cheaper AND Better made it no contest in her mind. The reason why the Ford was more expensive was immaterial to her decision. She feels she got a good deal. :D

I personally know several other owners of the Honda CR-V and every one of them "loves" the vehicle and has very good experience on maintenance, driveability, gas mileage and such. All of them highly recommend the Honda CR-V. Word of mouth and decent price sells cars.

For the record, I have only been in a Walmart once in the past 3 years. It is not one of my regular visits. Why??? To me, WalMart (store nearest to me)looks disorganized, disheveled with most merchandise stacked in the aisle or strewn about haphazardly. The shelves are not much better. Bottomline is that I don't get a "warm fuzzy" on the quality of the merchandise, the management, or that the employees really care about the business. That's my :twocents:

TripleTransAm

11-23-2005, 01:48 PM

I make a living going in to people's homes, about 2200 homes per year on average and I have been doing this for 34 years;

I wouldn't say stuff like that out loud, with so many LEOs on this board. :)

Bottom line: basic rules of marketing... make something people want to buy at a reasonable price, they will buy it. If they don't you have to ask yourself: where are we missing the boat? It's either too expensive, or people don't want to buy it, or people don't need it.

Being an automobile, there is a fair chance that people do need it. If it's priced fairly, then why is it still not selling? So if people don't WANT it, why do they want the same thing but made by someone else? Once they ask these questions and DO something about it, there's no reason why things shouldn't work out.

Blind brand loyalty can be dangerous. It makes management lazy and provides the false sense of security that will eventually lead to their downfall. I don't care how much I like McDonalds, if I find a bug embedded in my burger I'll be spending my $$ at Burger King from now on.

bigslim

11-23-2005, 01:52 PM

I wouldn't say stuff like that out loud, with so many LEOs on this board. :)

Bottom line: basic rules of marketing... make something people want to buy at a reasonable price, they will buy it. If they don't you have to ask yourself: where are we missing the boat? It's either too expensive, or people don't want to buy it, or people don't need it.

Being an automobile, there is a fair chance that people do need it. If it's priced fairly, then why is it still not selling? So if people don't WANT it, why do they want the same thing but made by someone else? Once they ask these questions and DO something about it, there's no reason why things shouldn't work out.

Blind brand loyalty can be dangerous. It makes management lazy and provides the false sense of security that will eventually lead to their downfall. I don't care how much I like McDonalds, if I find a bug embedded in my burger I'll be spending my $$ at Burger King from now on.
A lot of people buy cars that they passionate about. This what was lacking in the domestic car lines. Get some real car guys at the top to make better decisions.

TripleTransAm

11-23-2005, 02:45 PM

I think one thing that most of you forget about is that a lot of the problems on cars is not the fault of the automaker but the fault of the vendored part.

But we've established here that the automaker is squeezing the vendors to the point of quality cuts. I don't know how prevalent this situation is with other automakers, but we've seen how we end up with tires that 'balloon' and chew up their centers even at factory pressure settings, switches that fail, seat assemblies that lose their coverings, headlamps that allow moisture accumulation, etc.etc.

While there are no doubt unscrupulous suppliers that are attempting to maximize their profits from the contract (basic intent of capitalism, anyway), I can imagine what it must be like to be faced with demands from a major buyer and not have much of a choice (see Jerry's post on his overseas operations).

And it's not like I have the easy answer to that dilemma: if it was based on a true quality-related basis, it would be easier to turn away suppliers that were not supplying quality to promised standards. But then who's to determine what the fair price would be? You could use low-bidder techniques coupled with a quality threshold, but then you will always have human nature interfering with the low-bidder processes due to bribery or influence peddling, etc.

I don't know if some sort of profit-sharing initiative would work either... the concept of 'profit' is so open to interpretation, it would be too easy to screw a supplier out of the results of their share of the efforts. Likewise, a low-performing supplier can always cry foul that they had indeed done their share and the failed objectives are solely due to THEIR own suppliers or perhaps another of the automaker's suppliers altogether, etc.

One thing IS for sure. When I buy a car, I feel I'm contracting the automaker to build me a car. I am putting the responsibility on their shoulders to provide a final product that meets or exceeds expectations. Otherwise, I would expect them to provide an option list of suppliers to choose from, and I would be free to choose whatever supplier I felt had the greater chance of meeting my expectations.

This is much like building a new house through a central contractor. Most likely, the contractor will subcontract most if not all items to other companies. Very rarely if at all will a contractor sell you a house where they did EVERYTHING themselves... we're talking everything from foundations to structure to roofing to climate control to plumbing to cabinets to flooring and ceramics and landscaping and electric wiring, etc.etc. While most contractors will allow you to choose suppliers for some customizations (ceramics, floors, landscaping, other superficial appearance-related items), you will most likely NOT be able to obtain a warranty from your constructor if you attempt to convince him to use your own choice of foundation specialists, or structure. When something goes wrong, regardless of who supplied the item to my contractor, I will go see the contractor and expect HIM to honour his warranty on the house.

Same thing with a car: I don't care if Widget X was made by JackassesWithNoMechanicalAptit ude.com or QualityItemsGuaranteedNeverToF ail Inc. , I'm buying a <brand name> car and I expect <brand name> to ensure my expectations are met within reasonable limits.

We need people to make the right decisions at the right time. We also need people who have a passion for cars, not bookwork and numbers.

Yep, right decisions at the right time. Seems to me to be the key qualities of excellent performers, thereby meriting a large salary. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the norm as you climb the corporate ladder: lots of cases of the 'buddy system' being used to promote people, promotions based on seniority, promotions based on 'not ruffling any feathers', family-based promotions, etc.

Passion for cars is one thing but it does take proper bookkeeping to keep a company afloat. Now, to find both qualities in one member of management... !

Smokie

11-23-2005, 03:50 PM

I've been honest before... I mostly bought this second car because of the deal and the condition (and the warranty!). Part of it is also because I'd like to believe that there are trouble-free MMs out there to be had, and I hope this second one is among that crowd (highly doubt it, but...). And then there's that nagging part about loving the look and feel of the car. *sigh*....

Steve, there are trouble-free MM's. My experience in a field where I deal only with a product after it breaks, would suggest that they "all break", not the case. I just don't get called into homes where the product is not broken.

The loudest voices are those that are having problems, when it all works fine; people don't usually say much.

dwasson

11-23-2005, 06:28 PM

I think one thing that most of you forget about is that a lot of the problems on cars is not the fault of the automaker but the fault of the vendored part. Most of the recalls made on cars are due to a supplied part by some other company.

As a consumer that isn't my problem. I don't really care where the parts come from. I just want my car to run with no problems.

Since 1988 we have had 4 Hondas, totalling 700K miles and a Kia Sedona van with 23K. The Hondas have been as reliable as hammers and never left us on the side of the road. The scheduled maintanance costs a little more than a typical Big 3 car, but the repair costs are almost zero.

The Kia has not been as reliable as the Hondas, but is has a 100K warranty and the repairs have not cost me anything. And the Kia cost less than $20K. What's not to like.

Then there are the domestic cars. I bought the Chrysler Cirrus at 2 years old with 25K miles. I have had niggling electrical problems, parts availability issues and an intermittant speedo problem that they want $400 to fix.

The Marauder has been better than the Chrysler but not in the same league as even the Kia for reliability.

But I knew that going in. I bought the Marauder because the car excited me. I was willing to put up with a little grief to get that excitement.

But most people do not buy the car that excites them. Exciting cars are just a small part of the market. The money is made by selling millions of transportation appliances. And those cars are chosen based on more rational criteria.

The Big 3 needs to PROVE that the total cost of ownership for one of their vehicles is less than a comparable import. This could be done by designing better cars and building them right, but the easiest way would be to increase the length of the warranty. That is what kept Chysler afloat when all they could is change the grille on the K Cars.

Unless the consumer believes that domestic cars can be operated as cheaply as the imports the industry is doomed and a lot of people will be out of work. Making these longer warranties cost effective will probably require the companies to cut costs wherever they can. The UAW will either have to give back something or see more of their jobs move away.

The UAW is going to have a hard sell convincing some twenty-something, making $30K, that he should bite the bullet for autoworkers who make more than he does. And once that twenty-something buys the import and is happy with it, it will take a seismic shift to get him to buy a domestic car.

dwasson

11-23-2005, 06:37 PM

I realize that when it's your job being discussed, it is difficult to keep the discussion abstract. And being out of work myself, I can even sympathize. But, any kind of government intervention is guaranteed to make things worse.

Here's (http://www.willisms.com/archives/2005/11/trivia_tidbit_o_224.html) some good thinking about labor markets.

Smokie

11-23-2005, 06:43 PM

The reason the U.S is the most powerful nation on this planet, is we have the largest military/industrial complex; that combined with our ability to feed ourselves guarantees our current supremacy .

The Big Three and their domestic suppliers are in times of war, our WAR MACHINE. If our domestic auto industry is lost or becomes insignificant, we will loose the INDUSTRIAL part of the equation, shortly after that we will become a second rate world power....count on it.

TripleTransAm

11-23-2005, 06:48 PM

The Kia has not been as reliable as the Hondas, but is has a 100K warranty and the repairs have not cost me anything. And the Kia cost less than $20K. What's not to like.

You bring up some good points (especially about the approach of providing long warranties... right now, I'd REALLY have appreciated that with my 1st MM). But your paragraph above made me think of something we haven't touched on: relative quality versus absolute quality.

Most likely those who paid just over $20000 US for their new Marauders will put up with a lot more than those who paid $35000 US. Many of my co-workers or family members who've ridden in this car STILL flinch when I tell them the original sticker price of my 1st MM. Yes, I managed to get the price dropped a considerable amount before purchase (without too much effort, I might add, but I also wanted the car bad), but even at my final purchase price, I was still close to the high side of the range of 2003 prices you guys paid in the US. Dealers were excitedly waving that "no more than 500 for Canada!" clause in our faces. Oh well. So for that much coin, I guess I'm expecting a prestigious amount of quality built into my vehicle... this ain't no Focus or Cavalier.

Yes, this is an 'exciting' car and is not intended to appeal to the "sensible" buyer. But why can't it? An existing "proven" chassis, an engine with quite a few years under its belt, very few unique parts... a sure bet, a gambler's dream, no? With 3 'exciting' cars already in my stable, I was hoping to have my cake and eat it too... look, everyone, I'm actually enjoying my 'sensible' car when I'm not out in one of my Trans Ams. This is why I feel a little let down.

Until this 2nd MM showed up, I was pretty much resigned to returning to the 'appliance' car as you put it. This 2nd MM feels a little less 'tight' than my 1st one (I was so anal with that one) but appears quicker on its feet. I am enjoying driving it the past few days. With a little maintenance and a nice shine, I hope to recoup some driving fun but it'll take a long time before I'm ready to drop coin on a new car (import or domestic). No other car purchase has ever left me this upside down...

jgc61sr2002

11-24-2005, 07:43 AM

The Kia has not been as reliable as the Hondas, but is has a 100K warranty and the repairs have not cost me anything. And the Kia cost less than $20K. What's not to like.

.[/QUOTE]

My wife has a 2004 Kia Sedona. The workmen ship is excellent and the leather seats seem to be of better quality materials IMO. The paint is excellent. They have come a long way.
To date it has been trouble free and one of the best vehicles we have owned.

Petrograde

11-24-2005, 08:11 AM

My experience with unions are very similar to /Steve's. I grew up in Cleveland in a union family. My Dad worked at the same ore dock for over 30 years. I also had several uncles that worked there, not to mention they were the 3rd generation of my family to work there,... I'm sure I would've been the 4th. Except,.. times started getting hard,.. real hard. My Dad and uncles (along with everyone else that worked there) were put out on the streets with really crappy severance packages negotiated by the union.

Although,.. I really do agree with Slim, when he blames management,.. the buck truely does stop there! but, ever since I saw how the union screwed my family,.. I haven't had a warm fuzzy for them.

GM is slipping below the waves, Ford will eventually follow..

If we continue sending good jobs overseas, we'll be a 3rd world nation in the next 50 years.

China and India are killing us. They can make products at a fraction of the cost that we can.

What's the answer? I dunno. But, we do need to think about our future generations and not just hand over everything our ancestors sweated and bled to build.