Watts link

[jawz101]

What is it? Is this a good thing? Do control arms, sway bars and springs solve it... I'm just lost when it comes to handling.

[David Morton]

The watts link is actually two arms that connect to a bellcrank mounted on the rear axle gear housing. A watts link setup keeps the rear suspension going in a straight up-and-down motion in it's travel.

Metco has the hot setup for our car, billet aluminum upper and lower control arms with polyurethane bushings and watts link to match. The control arms are great bling as well, and the awesome stiffness the complete setup provides gives a sure-footed rear suspension for a very balanced handling with stock sway bars.

I'd hoped to drum up enough interest in the Quickor sway bars because they're state-of-the-art in materials as well. Wchain is a vendor for those, and this ole southern bootlegger wants the best he can git fer when he's got 20 gallons in the back.

[fastblackmerc]

Take a look at your stock rear control arms.... then look at these. You have to wonder how the stock arms worked at all!! I'm in the process of upgrading my MM's suspension. Already installed the rear upper & lower Metco's, frt Addco swaybar, installing the rear Addco this weekend. Will be close to Metco in S.C. mid December so I'll get the Watts link then. Not much more to do to the suspension except springs, either cutting off a coil or going with coil-overs.....

[Warpath]

To add to what David stated, the Watts link keeps the axle located laterally (cross-car). It prevents the axle from coming out from under the vehicle when you turn. It is more adventageous than a panhard rod. A panhard rod is a single bar that attaches to the frame on one end and the axle on the other end. The disadvantage of the panhard rod is that the end swings in an arc when it travels up and down. Therefore, it forces the axle to travel in an arc as well which you can sometimes feel. The Watts link design does not do this. The center pivot of the Watts link which attaches to the axle (on the front of the pumpkin on MMs) travels straight up and down when properly set up. Each one of the links swing in an arc like a panhard rod. However, they either travel away or toward each other. The pivot rotates about the center bearing and keeps everything in line. Its hard for me to describe with text. Another method to keep the axle located cross car is to eliminate the Watts link or panhard rod and angle the upper arms and/or the lower arms in and triangulate them. The disadvantage of doing so is that it is not as "solid" as a Watts link or panhard rod because you are asking the arms to do a lot more now. When the suspension travels, the arms are forced to twist too which can create some binding. Also, during cornering, the corning forces are not reacted directly through a panhard rod or watts link but are reacted by swinging the control arms in an arc. In essence, the bushings are deflected (twisted) during cornering. However, these bushings need to be soft enough to allow suspension travel and reduce binding which just makes the rear feel sloppy.

So, is the Watts link a good thing? Absolutely when set up properly.
Do control arms, sway bars and springs solve it? I'm not sure what you are trying to solve. But, if you are looking to remove the Watts link and get better trailing arms, springs, and sway bars, you will probably tear the axle off the frame in a corner. It would be undrivable basically too. You can make improvements on the suspension as stated above.

There is no correct handling "fix." Everyone's tastes and requirements are all different. Some want 1/4 mile performance only, some want a plush ride, some like the twisties, some like all of it. There is almost always some compromise to make with suspensions. So, determine what you want out the car and start getting parts for that goal. You may find, for example, all you really need are new shocks.

I've been working in suspension for a little over 5 years and am still an infant when it comes to handling. There is a lot to learn.

[David Morton]

Good description Warpath. You hit the nail right on the head.

[jawz101]

Thanks Warpath. I really appreciate the info. I'll keep you posted on here with what I decide to go with.

[jawz101]

Well the JLT sale recently posted is getting me thinking again about this. Right now I'm thinking of the metco arms and watts link package as well as an addco sway bar from Dennis.

How does that sound to you all?

Any install advice would be appreciated. I'm a novice but have friends that would help. Or a shop I will use for installs.

Thanks again.

[2003_MM_FYRE49]

Well the JLT sale recently posted is getting me thinking again about this. Right now I'm thinking of the metco arms and watts link package as well as an addco sway bar from Dennis.

How does that sound to you all?

Any install advice would be appreciated. I'm a novice but have friends that would help. Or a shop I will use for installs.

Thanks again.

I have both the front and rear sway bars from Dennis and do not regret the purchase. I started with the rear which made a world of difference in handling in and of its self. Then I had the front sway bar installed as well as the Metco control arms and Watts Link. Having all the "suspension Toys" makes for a whole lotta fun :beer:

[SergntMac]

Sorry, we don't have real "Watts links".

By definition, a "Watts link" performs many duties. However, on our '03/'04 Mercury Marauders, our version of a "Watts link" doesn't move in all those directions, or, provide all that much control function.

There is no real need to reinforce, replace, or, upgrade these links, other than for astethic (visual) reasons.

Our "Watts Links" do one thing...Control the rear air suspension height. Our Watts links move up, and, down, and only as our set screws demand. It does not call for any "centering", or "Panhard rod" like performance.

Gentlemen...We have a "four link" rear suspension system. Two up, two down. We cannot "center" anything south of the transmission crossmember, which is off center to begin with. I explored this and collected some facts, but my project got overwhelmed by popular opinion, so, buy what you want to buy.

Truth is, Metco upper and lower control arms do a very good job at planting the rear end, but Metco "Watts links" are for show.

Went here, did this, with a pro builder. The only way this mod can show any legit improvement in handling, is in 60 foot times, or, bling. Even there, it's benefit is ambigious. Not enough participants in the "Watts link only" sample to define any improvement.

But...They are Metco products, and they look sweet, so, mod on Gents...

Happy new year?

[MarauderMarc]

But a lower 60' time would result in better 1/4 mile times, so this IS a good mod for us that like to go to the strip.

[TripleTransAm]

Our "Watts Links" do one thing...Control the rear air suspension height. Our Watts links move up, and, down, and only as our set screws demand. It does not call for any "centering", or "Panhard rod" like performance.

Gentlemen...We have a "four link" rear suspension system. Two up, two down. We cannot "center" anything south of the transmission crossmember, which is off center to begin with.


Unless I misunderstood your post, I would disagree. The two sets of control arms are too narrow, wobble too much on their axes and point too forward to provide any sort of side-to-side locating. They really are only duplicated to keep the pinion pointed forward. The Watts link is what keeps the pumpkin centered. I put together a quickie drawing to show the action of a watts link as it's allowing the solid axle to move up/down yet maintain the axle centered left/right.

The Marauder suspension DOES have four torque-bearing links (the 4 control arms) but without the watts link, the rear would flop side-to-side.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82 84&d=1136179160


For a 4 link suspension without watts link or panhard bar to keep a solid axle laterally located, two of the links would have to be angled to be able to counter any side-to-side forces on the axle. This was the case on my 1985 Parisienne. Two lower control arms just like on the Marauder, and two shorter control arms stemming from the pumpkin. The shorter units were at pretty good angle, perhaps 45 degrees, to the transmission shaft orientation. These two small guys were what kept that axle centered, the longer lower ones just sat perfectly forward facing in their bushings. As much as I loved that car, it was terminal frame rot at the lower control arms that killed the car (even in its dying moments, the upper two links still managed to keep the axle centered :bigcry: ).

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82 85&d=1136179776

Same story with my '78, although instead of solid lower control arms, the leaf springs do the job of keeping the bottom side of the axle pointing down, while there are 2 small control arms off the diff same as in the Parisienne described above. The leaf springs themselves wouldn't be able to hold the axle in place from side-to-side movements.

On my '87 and '98 Trans Ams, they replaced the leaf springs with lower control arms and coil springs, and instead of the angled upper control arms, they went with the panhard rod setup. While the panhard bar does hold the axle from going side-to-side (and there is a load-distributing bracket between the frame rails to prevent one side from getting loaded all the time), there is still a need to keep the diff from rotating on itself, and that's where the torque arm comes in. This is secured to the diff at the pinion side (top and bottom) and is secured up front to the tail of the tranny, at the transmission mount where the crossmember is located.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82 86&d=1136179782

So without the watts link in our cars, the upper control arms would have to be angled towards the inside of the car somehow, to counter the side-to-side forces.

[SergntMac]

But a lower 60' time would result in better 1/4 mile times, so this IS a good mod for us that like to go to the strip.Wish it was that easy, Marc, but you'll need more than a Watts link to cut 60 foot times with any sureness. Meanwhile let's be clear about one thing.

I am not stating that an improved Watts link will improve 60 foot times, don't give me that credit.

At best, and I mean the very best of circumstances, the polyurethane bushings that come with the Metco Watts link take out some of the slack born in rubber OEM bushings. This will improve rear air suspension reaction to a hard launch, and with other things set up right, you may see improvement in 60 foot times. However, it's been tested, and any before - after performance gain (other than a good feeling in the driver's seat) is absent. Decide for yourself.

Unless I misunderstood your post, I would disagree. The two sets of control arms are too narrow, wobble too much on their axes and point too forward to provide any sort of side-to-side locating....They really are only duplicated to keep the pinion pointed forward. The Watts link is what keeps the pumpkin centered. So without the watts link in our cars, the upper control arms would have to be angled towards the inside of the car somehow, to counter the side-to-side forces.
Thank you for the detailed reply, /Steve, but I really do not wish to reopen a can of worms from two years ago. A professional race car chassis builder went over my car top to bottom, and designed what came to be the Zack and Mac control arms, intentionally wider and thicker, to address the "wobble" you point to. It's true the rear end will "walk" on stock control arms, but not on the Z&M, or, the Metco. I cannot say it strong enough, get one, or, the other for your Marauder.

Whether we are talking stock suspension, or, a custom aftermarket build, the rear links are somewhat "pidgeon toe", and we intended to continue on with a custom Watts link, as well as a correct tranny crossmember. But, all of that fell by the wayside, and for reasons much like this thread here.

I respect your contributions, and your beliefs, /Steve, but I have my own beliefs too, and based on my own research and that of a professional chassis builder. It's my position that the Watts link on our Marauder do not support any weight, or, control much of anything other than air suspension ride height. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Marauder386]

Whether we are talking stock suspension, or, a custom aftermarket build, the rear links are somewhat "pidgeon toe", and we intended to continue on with a custom Watts link, as well as a correct tranny crossmember.


So there was a possibility of a M+Z transmission crossmember ? YeeOww ! I would have snatched that up with all the other suspension parts I put on RoadPig 1 ...

:coolman:

[TripleTransAm]

I respect your contributions, and your beliefs, /Steve, but I have my own beliefs too, and based on my own research and that of a professional chassis builder. It's my position that the Watts link on our Marauder do not support any weight, or, control much of anything other than air suspension ride height. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Then I think we're on to something big here... those of us seriously looking at weight reduction for drag strip use should simply remove the watts link altogether, since it would be easier to just take the height sensor and keep it at a fixed height for driving to/from the track (ie. keep it tie-wrapped to something solid, since it wouldn't be actively controlling ride height any longer, and the side benefit would be no longer having to shut off the compressor at the track before a run - the height would never be affected by squat).

I really think this could be a big weight saver if this link is really not doing anything other than height management.

[jawz101]

This became a fun thread for me and I think I've decided to hijack it. I went with a set of php control arms and addco rear swaybar from DR. Thanks for the help, Dennis!

[SergntMac]

I really think this could be a big weight saver if this link is really not doing anything other than height management. Well, they are made like the control arms, and of the same materials, maybe 4 pounds each side. Yeah, that ought to cut a tenth or two...

[Warpath]

...I respect your contributions, and your beliefs, /Steve, but I have my own beliefs too, and based on my own research and that of a professional chassis builder. It's my position that the Watts link on our Marauder do not support any weight, or, control much of anything other than air suspension ride height. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

The Watts link transfers the lateral load from the tires to the frame. There is nothing you can say that can change my mind except measuring the loads in the Watts link. The Watts link is necessary to keep the axle located laterally in the vehicle, period. True the trailing arms are angled. But, they are angled only slightly. Its not enough to maintain its position effectively. Take off the Watts link and you will find out what else it does. Do you really think Ford would keep such an expensive link on this vehicle if all it did was measure ride height? Ford could easily move the ride height sensor to one of the trailing arms. If the Watts link is nothing but a fancy ride height sensor, then why do non-air suspension vehicles still have a Watts link? Your chassis builder sounds as if he is only concerned about going straight. I don't put a lot of faith in his opinion if he believes that the Watts link can be removed without changing the rear suspension geometry.

[TripleTransAm]

If the Watts link is nothing but a fancy ride height sensor, then why do non-air suspension vehicles still have a Watts link?

That's a very good point.

So who's going to try it first, then? (ie. removing the watts link COMPLETELY).

No better way to prove the theory, especially if that car has the improved control arms.

[Warpath]

IF YOU TRY IT AT YOUR OWN RISK, MAKE SURE YOU TRY IT IN AN EMPTY PARKING LOT SO THAT NO ONE ELSE GETS INVOLVED. Be prepared for the chance the control arms hit the frame or damage a shock. I'm not stating it will happen. But, there is a chance.

Granted, improved arms will reduce the lateral movement. However, the bushing will still deflect with improved arms. I think most people underestimate the amount the metal components deflect as well (engineers included).

In order to get a good A to B test, load up the vehicle with simulated passengers and cargo weight and perform some tests: 1) Emergency lane changes at 50 mph give or take, 2) Slalom (sp?) test, and 3) a lateral g skid pad test. Perform each with and without the Watts link and try to measure the lateral displacement of the axle for each test. Also, keep in mind these tests won't include any road hazards such as turning and hitting a pot hole. I suspect the first test will be the wildest ride. REPEAT: PERFORM THESE TESTS AWAY FROM OTHERS AT YOUR OWN RISK. I cannot be held responsible for any and all outcomes/damages/etc.

I suspect based on visual appearance only that removing the Watts link will increase understeer quite a bit. So, if that is true, at least removing the Watts link increases understeer. NOTE: I was incorrect. See below.

[jimlam56]

IF YOU TRY IT AT YOUR OWN RISK, MAKE SURE YOU TRY IT IN AN EMPTY PARKING LOT SO THAT NO ONE ELSE GETS INVOLVED. Be prepared for the chance the control arms hit the frame or damage a shock. I'm not stating it will happen. But, there is a chance.

Granted, improved arms will reduce the lateral movement. However, the bushing will still deflect with improved arms. I think most people underestimate the amount the metal components deflect as well (engineers included).

In order to get a good A to B test, load up the vehicle with simulated passengers and cargo weight and perform some tests: 1) Emergency lane changes at 50 mph give or take, 2) Slalom (sp?) test, and 3) a lateral g skid pad test. Perform each with and without the Watts link and try to measure the lateral displacement of the axle for each test. Also, keep in mind these tests won't include any road hazards such as turning and hitting a pot hole. I suspect the first test will be the wildest ride. REPEAT: PERFORM THESE TESTS AWAY FROM OTHERS AT YOUR OWN RISK. I cannot be held responsible for any and all outcomes/damages/etc.

I suspect based on visual appearance only that removing the Watts link will increase understeer quite a bit. So, if that is true, at least removing the Watts link increases understeer.
No car manufacturer puts on unnecessary hardware to their cars.
The question is:
Can the upgrades available increase performance over stock?

[Warpath]

I agree especially in today's cut-throat market.

I'll let the others comment on whether upgrading the Watts link is worth it. It could be that the MM is not that sensitive to Watts link stiffness. If it is not, it may not make a difference.

Anyway, my comment above is incorrect. I had it backwards. Removing the Watts link may increase oversteer. Also, the axle movement will mess with Ackerman. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know whether the change in Ackerman will counteract or worsen the oversteer.

[Donny Carlson]

That's a very good point.

So who's going to try it first, then? (ie. removing the watts link COMPLETELY).

No better way to prove the theory, especially if that car has the improved control arms.

Well, I ain't got a watt's link either, but then, I aint got air bags.

What do have is a hugeass transverse link that does the same thing as the watts link on a MM "The rear suspension utilized two upper and lower links that attach to the frame at four points and a transverse link (or track bar) to help provide lateral stability"
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/1/1/3/6/DSC00289.JPG

I may just be a stupid Alabama hic, but I noticed an improvement in handling on my MM when the Watts link was relplaced with Metco's AND the front sway bar was upgraded at the same time. I'd think taking off the Watts link entirely would be a horrible idea.

[juno]

Here is a drawing of the Ford 5 point rear suspension. Yes you can remove the watts link and it likely won't affect drag racing. It's function is to locate the rear axle more precisely when cornering. If it is removed I don't know if the stock or aftermarket upper control arms will bind or prevent axle wrap under hard cornering. How much does it weigh anyhow? It is unsprung weight as far as handling is concerned.

[Dennis Reinhart]

But a lower 60' time would result in better 1/4 mile times, so this IS a good mod for us that like to go to the strip.

INMOP the watts link will have no effect on 60' times I would agrre controll arms would, if you were going to drive the car on a road course then I could see the advantage of the watts link, just like the Addco front sway bar if you are taking the car to the strip this would not be a good option to add, because the bar is very stiff it limits weight transfer to the rear tires on launch, but greatly improves the cars handling on the highway

[SergntMac]

Your chassis builder sounds as if he is only concerned about going straight. I don't put a lot of faith in his opinion if he believes that the Watts link can be removed without changing the rear suspension geometry. I never said this, Joe, and you know it. Neither has my chassis builder. I did not suggest removing the Watts link, nor, do I support any effort in this direction. You are good at infaming things to nonsense, Joe, give it a rest, please.

So who's going to try it first, then? (ie. removing the watts link COMPLETELY). No better way to prove the theory, especially if that car has the improved control arms. What theory are you talking about? Nevermind, you own two Marauders, go for it, dude. If you believe this will prove something, you deserve the credit for investigating the proof.

This has turned into another pizzing contest, and I'm not interested, no thanks.

No car manufacturer puts on unnecessary hardware to their cars. The question is: Can the upgrades available increase performance over stock? The answer is yes. Add up all the upgrades available for a Marauder, and the Watts link has little to do, other than adjust ride height. While I may agree with you in a general sense that no unnecessary hardware goes into any automobile, we can effectively neutralize what is present with aftermarket mods, and it's going on all over our Marauders. This is all I tried to highlight in my initial reply to this thread.

The original question was "is it worth it to upgrade" and my answer is still no, unless you need to see the bling.

It's called chassis tuning, rebuilding your Marauder to handle a particular way, hopefull a way you like it. While we have spent some time in this thread discussing how a Watts link suspension system functions, this has been discussed in a very general sense. The heart of this discussion from my point of view, rests on other upgrades being present.

First there was an OEM revision to the frame that moves the rear shock absorbers outboard, a suspension change of almost three full inches outboard. Then, thicker Addco sway bars and poly bushings (both front and rear), with improved tubular control arms with poly bushings, and QA1 adjustable shocks and springs (springs in front only). Then we add tweaking of the rear air suspension, and careful selection of tires, compound and size...Yes, you can dial in/tune a whole new ride.

This is quite a makeover from OEM designs, and our Watts links are left with little to do more than monitor and adjust the rear air suspension. Therefore, spending 3-400 bucks on stronger Watts links becomes a very big Why? Where is the need to make it stronger? With all the other suspension bits in place, the Watts link is virtually unemployed. Where is the need to reinforce it? Make it more durable, or, impervious to wear and tear?

Take a peek at the OEM Watts links and busings, they are the same quality and construction as the OEM control arms. For an OEM suspension set up, they are durable and should last the life of the car without a problem. However, on a modded Marauder, they do even less work, therefore, they are more durable as they are.

Need to see some bling? Save yourself some bucks, buy another set of Watts links from The Dealer, and send them out for chrome/powdercoat. Need them to match your control arms? Then spend the 3-400 bucks and make yourself happy. I'm sure the kids at the Oil Rack will admire them.

Is there a need to reinforce or upgrade the durability? Absolutely not.

Talk amongst yourselves...

[Dennis Reinhart]

I agree with Mac, I just do not feel the Watts link is really needed unless you just have the extra money to spend. I would rather invest in a Mod that has shown a RWHP gain, or improves ET of course if you have already done most mods I guess this would be ok, I have personally never used one of these or drove a car before and after, again this mod is for improving and stifing up the body cutting down on body roll, this would help at the road tracks and on the highway it will do nothing for improving 60' times or the car launching, a converter and or control arms will.

[Warpath]

I never said this, Joe, and you know it. Neither has my chassis builder. I did not suggest removing the Watts link, nor, do I support any effort in this direction...

Actually, my posts were in response to TTA's post about removing it. I turned it back to you, unfortunately, since you stated it didn't do anything. Sorry. 1000 Pardons.


...You are good at infaming things to nonsense, Joe, give it a rest, please....

:D LOL. I'm not sure what infaming is. But, your point is taken nonetheless. I suppose I get carried away at times. But, I'm trying to make a point of knowing and understanding the consequences of a person's actions. Sometimes you need to get carried away to make the point.

[Dennis Reinhart]

This is a great club there are no dumb questions here, we all like to share our ideas about this car,

[TripleTransAm]

What theory are you talking about? Nevermind, you own two Marauders, go for it, dude. If you believe this will prove something, you deserve the credit for investigating the proof.

Not interested in bending my stock control arms.

This morning I spotted an error in the factory Wiring manual by accident while looking for something totally unrelated (the wiper-to-headlights link). On one of the component location pages (page 30 of that section, if I recall), there's a left over cell from what must be a pre-Watts link Panther. It shows the diagonal links we discussed, centering the differential to the rest of the body, and the height sensor was attached to one of those two control arms. Nothing stopping Ford from moving the height sensor along with those two upper arms when they were moved outboard... so why resort to yet two more links just to keep the height sensor functionality? And again, why does one need the height sensor functionality when the majority of Panthers use coil springs? And yet again, why use TWO links attached to a pivoting center assembly, when only ONE of those links is being monitored by the height sensor?

I have NO doubt that an aftermarket control arm would take a lot of load off the Watts link, and no doubt the larger 'sleeve' would be a reason for this, but to claim the Watts link is present only for height sensor duty is misleading. That's all I'm saying, no pi$$ing contests here.

[TAF]

The WATTS linkage on our cars acts just like a pan-hard bar.

And...to say that after adding better Metco Control Arms, swaybars and shocks...that...

....our Watts links are left with little to do more than monitor and adjust the rear air suspension.

As heavy as our cars are...is ludicrous and ill-informed.

[FordNut]

Alright, I've been watching this thread grow a few days and haven't jumped in yet, but now that I see what's been going on I thought I'd put in my 2 cents worth.

The Watts link is basically a fancy version of a panhard bar or tracking arm. It works better because it doesn't apply side forces unequally in a angular direction between the frame and the rear end. It was not needed in earlier versions of coil-spring or airbag rear suspensions because of the angle that the upper control arms was mounted. With the parallel control arms, there is nothing to keep the body and rear end from moving side-to-side so the link is needed. Even in a straight line, the rear end will wander from side-to-side if the Watts link is totally removed. It is much more than a convenient place to mount the height sensor.

Now to the original question, is the upgrade worthwhile? That's a matter of opinion. I modified my suspension in stages and this is what I experienced.

1st I upgraded the rear sway bar. Much tighter in corners. No difference in the 1/4.

2nd I added the Zack & Mac control arms. Not much difference in corners, much better in the 1/4.

3rd I added the Metco Watts link. Way too tight in corners, very twitchy. No difference in the 1/4.

4th I added the front sway bar. Much better, good balance of control but not too twitchy, really tight. No difference in the 1/4.

5th I added the QA1 rear shocks. Not much change, but ride quality is adjustable and they clear the 305 drag radials with no spacers needed.

Is it worth it? Do you like carving the twisties? There's your answer.

[Zack]

The WATTS linkage on our cars acts just like a pan-hard bar.

And...to say that after adding better Metco Control Arms, swaybars and shocks...that...


As heavy as our cars are...is ludicrous and ill-informed.


Listen folks, the watts link is under tension or compression throughout its whole life. A control arm is subjected to torsional stresses, or twisting its whole life. It makes sense to replace the weak part subjected to twisting right?
Example:
Take a piece of 8 x 11 legal paper. Twists with ease when manipulated, right?
Take the same sheet of paper and try to rip it by pulling at each end. Almost impossible, right? Right.
Same principle is applied to the watts link. It is always under tension or compression. Physical properties which the weakest of materials can handle.
And the same principle applies to control arms and watts links.
A flimsy piece of stamped steel, tin or whatever the factory watts link is made of can handle any load thrown at it. To be honest, it is not subjected to that much to begin with, even if you are making big power.
The watts link is for show.
Mac and I would have marketed our own rendition if it was worthy of being on a Marauder.

[jimlam56]

I installed the rear sway bar about a month ago. Ordered the front Addco from Dennis last week. Looking forward to installing and testing when it gets here, then will start saving my pennies for the Metco control arms.
My goal for these upgrades is to get a flatter handling car with an eye towards a road course, or even Auto-x. I think it will be a hoot to work out a heavy car like ours in the twisties. I'm not really into the bling aspect, but if the Metco watts will help me accomplish my goal without making the car undriveable in every day use, I might consider it. Any additional comments are appreciated.

[Zack]

Ya know Todd, and everyone else for that matter...
I dont like resorting to name calling or bashing anyone else's facts, opinions or whatever is posted on this site.
But hear this, whenever a derogatory name is included in my posts, you can be damn sure Im right about what Im writing.
Some of you hate me for it, a lot of you are laughing your as$es off right now, and you know who you are :D

[MERCMAN]

Ya know Todd, and everyone else for that matter...
I dont like resorting to name calling or bashing anyone else's facts, opinions or whatever is posted on this site.
But hear this, whenever a derogatory name is included in my posts, you can be damn sure Im right about what Im writing.
Some of you hate me for it, a lot of you are laughing your as$es off right now, and you know who you are :D


Then don't resort to it!! sticks and stones etc, but lets maintain a modicum of civility here and keep this thread as informative as possible without lashing out

[TAF]

I just hate to see junk, shade-tree stuff presented as fact. There are many members here who don't know or don't have the resources for "in-person" knowledge. And miss-informed pablum...like posted above is NOT informative. It's a travesty to let it stand as fact.

Folks...if you think that the WATTS link just "hangs there doing nothing"...then don't change it. But, you'll be on the wrong boat.

[MERCMAN]

And to think,, all this time I thought a Watts link was a DSL line to a bad neighborhood in Los Angeles :rofl:

[SergntMac]

I just hate to see junk, shade-tree stuff presented as fact. There are many members here who don't know or don't have the resources for "in-person" knowledge. And miss-informed pablum...like posted above is NOT informative. It's a travesty to let it stand as fact.

Folks...if you think that the WATTS link just "hangs there doing nothing"...then don't change it. But, you'll be on the wrong boat. Hehehe...Here we go again, folks!

This is exactly where I didn't want to go again y'all, and see this crap rehashed one more time.

But, it confronts us all again, what can I say...

There's nothing wrong with the Metco Watts links, except that you don't need them.

They are pretty.

Not very functional.

Can you live well without them?

Surely you can.

Live a long and drive hard too. You won't miss not having Metco Watts links under your Marauder. Not for one splitsecond.

Can you dispose of the Watts link entirely?

I do not suggest that and I would not do that myself.

Do you need to buy the "improved" Watts link from Metco, which TAF introduced here?

No.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that Zack and I hired Mike Lopez to do our suspension math, and he did exactly that. He did a fine job too, Mike is no "shade tree" wrench, his name is on many supercar frames of top pros in the racing circuts.

Mike took us on (must have been a slow day) and later he decided not to build, or, offer a Watts link as a third piece, or upgrade, because his learning of what was necessary to tune the Marauder suspension, and what was not.

The Zack/Mac Watts link was explored. We fancied offering that here and danced with that, but also researched it all, and to it's death. We discovered that any attempt to upgrade this suspension bit would constitute a fraud on brother owners, and we abandoned all upgrade efforts at that point.

The prototype control arm research done on my Kenny Brown #1x Marauder was all Mike and Zack needed to see, learn, and know. What followed, was an agreement among us that any suggestion that an upgraded or improved Watts link as an important suspenjsion bit, was a lie. It wasn't needed, necessary, or, mportant.

There...I said it. What I had hoped to avoid having to say, now has to be said. If you feel, think, or, believe that a Watts link is an important suspension component on your Marauder, it is not. And anyone saying so, is a liar trying to steal your money.

Another lie, a lie we are (or should be) used to hearing here, when 411 comes from folks who don't know squat.

Zack and I did the research, 3 months of driving around on prototypes, in twisties and in a straight line, and coming back here with the truth. Yes, we sold 50 some sets of control arms, but we sold zero Watts links because selling them to y'all would be stealing your money, and we could not do that.

"Shade tree mechanics"...ROTFLMAO!

How about calling us broke, but sleeping well at night because we didn't favor, or, foster cheating our brother Marauder owners into a mod that doesn't do squat?

I'd rather have the night's sleep.

[JACook]

Lemme suggest to all y'all that there's a bit of a communications breakdown in this thread.
There's a HUGE difference between saying-

"You don't need a Watts link"

and saying-

"You don't need an UPGRADED Watts link".

Reading through this thread, the first statement was made multiple times, but the second statement, not
so much. At least not in those words. And I promise you, given the MM's rear suspension design, only one
of those statements is true.

And then there's the contention that, possibly depending on shocks, bushings, and whatever, the Watt's
link becomes nothing more than a place to connect the ride height sensor??? Did I _read_ that right?

Maybe if you put a panhard bar in place of it, but otherwise, I challenge you to disconnect the links, and
TRY to drive in a straight line. Or just lean up against the rear fender.

If I misunderstood what was being said, please set me straight. Otherwise, you can debate, or you can prove.
This one's easy. Couple'a bolts.

Do videotape it. Depending on the outcome, we'll all be eating crow, or having a good chuckle.

[JMan]

Lemme suggest to all y'all that there's a bit of a communications breakdown in this thread.
There's a HUGE difference between saying-

"You don't need a Watts link"

and saying-

"You don't need an UPGRADED Watts link".

Reading through this thread, the first statement was made multiple times, but the second statement, not
so much. At least not in those words. And I promise you, given the MM's rear suspension design, only one
of those statements is true.

And then there's the contention that, possibly depending on shocks, bushings, and whatever, the Watt's
link becomes nothing more than a place to connect the ride height sensor??? Did I _read_ that right?

Maybe if you put a panhard bar in place of it, but otherwise, I challenge you to disconnect the links, and
TRY to drive in a straight line. Or just lean up against the rear fender.



I intentionally avoided this nomenclatural flame war. Well put Jeff. I hope the understanding is broad from this point on. Watts links have a critical function on the rear of these cars, period. I think everybody in this thread understands that. It was merely presented in a way that a novice might take wrongly. That would be a grave error. Now if everybody else will get off their soapbox, so will I.

J

[SergntMac]

Lemme suggest to all y'all that there's a bit of a communications breakdown in this thread.

"You don't need an UPGRADED Watts link".

Yes.

Thank you.

[TAF]

And then there's the contention that, possibly depending on shocks, bushings, and whatever, the Watt's
link becomes nothing more than a place to connect the ride height sensor??? Did I _read_ that right?

This was EXACTLY my point in post #30….


How about calling us broke, but sleeping well at night because we didn't favor, or, foster cheating our brother Marauder owners into a mod that doesn't do squat?

I'd rather have the night's sleep.

And as far as this^^^…I sleep very well every night and have NOT “cheated” anyone here. Nor did I profit $1 from QA1, Naake, Metco, ADDCO (on the front sway bar that would have NOT been available if it weren’t for me), or ProCharger…to whom ALL the credit for ANY development on it goes to the work on Marty’s car.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<o:p></o:p>
<font size=" /><o:p></o:p>
<FONT size=3>Read up folks…pick up any leading magazine and the names mentioned above are mainstream leaders in the industry of aftermarket products. Not some no-name “chassis builder” who according to this thread, and the statements made about “his” thoughts are MORE than suspect.
<o:p></o:p>
<FONT size=3>Cheated? Sleeping well at night? How ‘bout offering a crap set of control arms that use the stock rubber bushings for it, is made outside the parameters of the original design of Mercury Engineers without a proper explanation as to why it was made that way…..and profiting from it.

[Zack]

How ‘bout offering a crap set of control arms that use the stock rubber bushings for it, is made outside the parameters of the original design of Mercury Engineers without a proper explanation as to why it was made that way…..and profiting from it.

You've yet to explain why the 'shiny' control arms you helped engineer for Marty's $150,000 supercar are better. On a second note, please explain why you prefer polyurethane bushings in a 4400lb application? In a sport/luxury car? In a car that needs to ride good 99% of the time and kick a$$ the other 1% ???
Sorry, a suspension that has no give on a daily driver is not a good suspension. That is why we kept the stock bushings, which have proven themselves over and over. Just check out my 60ft times. 1.60's? Yeah that sucks doesnt it.
Crap set of control arms? Marty was our 2nd customer, everyone who has them is happy, they were engineered by 3 regular guys, no fancy name in a popular magazine, and best of all, they work.
Youve been in your new shop too long Todd, everything you say is 'muffled'

[TAF]

You've yet to explain why the 'shiny' control arms you helped engineer for Marty's $150,000 supercar are better. On a second note, please explain why you prefer polyurethane bushings in a 4400lb application? In a sport/luxury car? In a car that needs to ride good 99% of the time and kick a$$ the other 1% ???
Sorry, a suspension that has no give on a daily driver is not a good suspension. That is why we kept the stock bushings, which have proven themselves over and over. Just check out my 60ft times. 1.60's? Yeah that sucks doesnt it.
Crap set of control arms? Marty was our 2nd customer, everyone who has them is happy, they were engineered by 3 regular guys, no fancy name in a popular magazine, and best of all, they work.
Youve been in your new shop too long Todd, everything you say is 'muffled'

It's not for me to explain... 'cause I didn't design them. Feel free to give Ron Kincaid a call, he's the owner of Metco...and a TRUE suspension expert. I just facilitated his development of the Metco Control Arms/WATTS link for the Marauder. I never claimed to be the expert, like you and your "daddy" do....

[TAF]

Marty was our 2nd customer,....
Uh...you'll not find 'em on Marty's car...they were promptly sold...

Youve been in your new shop too long Todd, everything you say is 'muffled'
It's not a job...it's a pleasure...and...I own this place.

[Warpath]

...There...I said it. What I had hoped to avoid having to say, now has to be said...

Actually, had you said all of that in the beginning, perhaps this thread would have been a happier place to be. No flame intended this time. But, I often read posts on the internet that state, "Don't do it, it/they suck" with no explanation of why. But, I digress.....

As far as bushing selection goes, bushing rates are all a matter of personal taste. There isn't a right one for everyone. The OE bushings are fine in some cases. Poly bushings are fine in some cases. Poly bushings have the drawback of having to be greased to prevent squeeks.

The Watts links do twist because the axle rotates (pinion angle changes) while the suspension travels (just another nonsense statement - nothing particular to prove).


3rd I added the Metco Watts link. Way too tight in corners, very twitchy. No difference in the 1/4

Can you please explain further what you mean by twitchy? Did it seem quicker as in it would dart in corners? Did it wander more? You may have shown upgrading the Watts links has an effect.

[SergntMac]

No flame intended this time. But, I often read posts on the internet that state, "Don't do it, it/they suck" with no explanation of why. No flame taken, Joe, and I'm not saying anything sucks.

I believe that my fellow owners need to understand why they should invest in a mod, and what to expect out of it before making an investment. As the cost of the mod rises, the need to understand this likewise rises. Moreover, when it's a mod that no one other than your local oil changer will see, there should be some performance gain with some substance to it, so, the owner can say something like "oh yeah, there it is."

With all the other bits in place, this is not the case with the Watts link, and this statement is not just my opinion. It's three months of research, design and testing, and all Zack and I learned, was to not produce an improved Watts link, because it didn't need improvement. It prolly would have worked out to be a 200-250 dollar mod, and if I can't point to likewise value in benefit, I shouldn't be selling them. OTOH, if we didn't have all the other suspension bits to work with, the decision to produce may have gone in the other direction.

Not to change the subject, but let's look at the Granatelli COP boots/connectors. The mod came out at 190 bucks through Summit, and I bought a set to test. I liked them very much and when Brian (FordNut) posted on them here, I joined in. Again, no one can see them, but I knew how they improved spark and solved a few irritating riddles under the hood. Good bang for the buck, and thanks to Wes Chain, less bucks for that bang.

I'm real happy about how it all worked out, but when I learn something about a mod (whether it's good or bad), it's going to get said. I would expect no less from you or any other member. Sometimes we dice it up too small, too thin, sometimes we get caught up in misunderstandings. But, if we don't discuss it at all, we're not being helpful to others, why expect them to be helpful to us.

[merc]

This is good stuff, I am getting a real edumacation about these Watt links. What is a edumaction you ask? It's the process by which one becomes edumacated, the achievement of which is generally marked by a gradumacation ceremony.:popcorn:

[FordNut]

Can you please explain further what you mean by twitchy? Did it seem quicker as in it would dart in corners? Did it wander more? You may have shown upgrading the Watts links has an effect.
It was tight, so tight it was hard to keep it in one lane on the highway. It oversteered in corners. Adding the front sway bar fixed it.

Was it the watts link itself or the fact it used poly bushings? I dunno, just reporting my experience.

[JACook]

It was tight, so tight it was hard to keep it in one lane on the highway. It oversteered in corners.
The condition you're describing, most racers would call "loose".


Adding the front sway bar fixed it.
If the rear is wanting to slide loose in corners, a stiffer front bar will improve the balance.


Was it the watts link itself or the fact it used poly bushings? I dunno, just reporting my experience.
This is the curious part. Changing the Watt's link should not have had any effect on the front/rear handling balance,
unless you altered the actual geometry. Even then, I would expect the roll center effects would be pretty subtle.
Usually the only things that will affect handling balance to such a degree are spring/shock rates (though the shocks
are more of a transitional thing while the spring rates affect steady-state cornering) or relative front/rear roll stiffness.

Between these, roll stiffness is the more common tuning mechanism. Adding roll stiffness to the rear, relative to what's
up front, will tend to cause the condition you describe, while adding roll stiffness up front, relative to what's out back,
will tend to make the front end push. Getting the two in balance is the trick.

But unless there was some bushing bind involved, I don't see where replacing the Watt's link would contribute to either.

From your description, I'd be willing to bet that's what it was. And/or the suspension bolts were tightened with the
suspension unloaded. (Not usually a problem with urethane 'cause it's not bonded to the sleeve.)

[Warpath]

No flame taken, Joe, and I'm not saying anything sucks.

I just meant that I continually read on the internet that people litterally reply to a question with "Don't. It's terrible/sucks/crap/etc." without explaining why or even having personal experience.

Anyway, if I understood you correctly, did you prototype and try a Watts link? If so, did you use the OE bushings?


It was tight, so tight it was hard to keep it in one lane on the highway. It oversteered in corners. Adding the front sway bar fixed it.
This raises more questions in my mind than answers. I'm going to have to think this one through. It usually takes me a while to do so. I have one other question at the moment. When you enter a sharp turn, the front end will roll first then the rear will roll a split second later. Did you notice whether that time between front and rear roll reduced after installing the new Watts link? Its not easy to notice it especially if you are not looking for it.

JACook - I'm thinking a change in geometry from bushing and link deflection during a turn may be a bigger contributor than roll stiffness change. I need to prove to myself that the Watts link doesn't contribute to it before agreeing (I know what everyone has posted). My intuition tells me it does.

[FordNut]

Hey, I dunno the reasons for the handling changes, just reporting what happened. Some people make a whole bunch of changes at once, I prefer to do one thing at a time and see what the result is. The rear end did not swing out, it followed along with the fronts perfectly. I did not look for a difference in front to rear "roll". The front end steering was just too sensitive. If I made a hairpin left turn in the twisties, I had to be careful or I'd be off in the ditch on the left side of the road. Installation while loaded/unloaded should make no difference, the bushings are poly and have grease fittings for lube so if the bushings were loaded they would relax quickly. I drove it like this for a month or so and it was like that the whole time.

[Warpath]

Thanks. I find vehicle handling fastinating. So, I appreciate the report out. Its nice when someone makes one change at a time.

Anyway, I have some of it figured out and I think I can explain why. But, I'm not positive yet. I have to work out some other details which will counteract the oversteer.

[FordNut]

Thanks. I find vehicle handling fastinating. So, I appreciate the report out. Its nice when someone makes one change at a time.

Anyway, I have some of it figured out and I think I can explain why. But, I'm not positive yet. I have to work out some other details which will counteract the oversteer.
Ya know, there were a couple of other members who made the rear suspension changes before changing the front sway bar. They were ready to change back to stock until I related my experience, then they added the front sway bar and were happy. Don't remember who they were, just remember the threads.

[Agent M79]

Ya know, there were a couple of other members who made the rear suspension changes before changing the front sway bar.

Might be one was me. I would not change back but I still don't have the front bar. The back end is very good but the front end is... er... 'floaty' but comparison.

[RCSignals]

Listen folks, the watts link is under tension or compression throughout its whole life. A control arm is subjected to torsional stresses, or twisting its whole life. It makes sense to replace the weak part subjected to twisting right?
Example:
Take a piece of 8 x 11 legal paper. Twists with ease when manipulated, right?
Take the same sheet of paper and try to rip it by pulling at each end. Almost impossible, right? Right.
Same principle is applied to the watts link. It is always under tension or compression. Physical properties which the weakest of materials can handle.
And the same principle applies to control arms and watts links.
A flimsy piece of stamped steel, tin or whatever the factory watts link is made of can handle any load thrown at it. To be honest, it is not subjected to that much to begin with, even if you are making big power.
The watts link is for show.
Mac and I would have marketed our own rendition if it was worthy of being on a Marauder.


That is actually quite a good description of the watts links on our car.
The stock links are not pretty, but they are more than adequate for the job they perform. I've never heard of a stock watts link failing (maybe someone else has) and the stock ones are well proven on all the CVPIs and Taxis out there.
I suppose you could experiment with bushings for the Watts links, but even that may not be necessary.

The Metco links are a great looking piece of kit and well made, but any difference felt between them and stock links is probably in the harder bushing material.

[Warpath]

That's what I'm thinking. I've given it as much thought as I care to give. I think it is the fact that the stud on the axle looks like its about 45 degrees. If the stud were horizontal, the pivot would just rotate about the stud when the vehicle turns and the body rolls. However, with it at 45 deg, the stud changes angle relative to the body and makes the links "bind." I'm assuming the Metco bushings are stiffer than OE and, therefore, the rear roll stiffness increases and increases oversteer. [/nonsense off]

[TripleTransAm]

I think it is the fact that the stud on the axle looks like its about 45 degrees. If the stud were horizontal, the pivot would just rotate about the stud when the vehicle turns and the body rolls.

Not really, since if the stud was horizontal, the links might remain vertical as long as the upper and lower control arms changed length as the axle moved up/down. But they don't, so the axle has to swing to a certain extent. Hence, the angle of the stud has to be such that the links remain as free as possible, given the slight changes in angle as the axle moves up/down.

[Warpath]

My text wasn't very clear I don't think. I'm referring to a change in angle from a top view. I made a very crude drawing showing what I mean. I know the Watts link doesn't actually look like this. But, if I drew it the way it looks things would overlap and get confusing.

http://tinypic.com/k00cnc.jpg

If you were in the vehicle looking down at the axle, the Watts link would look like the top picture. Note that the links are parallel. The axle stud is at a 45 deg angle sticking out of the screen.

The car enters a corner and the body rolls. If you were still in the vehicle, the stud would swing in an arc as shown in the bottom picture. The axle stud would be at an angle less than 45 deg relative to the ground and at an angle relative to the centerline of the vehicle. The two studs on the pivot attaching the links would also be at an angle relative to the centerline of the vehicle. This angle would "bind" up the bushings.

This is how I was thinking about it. I may be incorrect.

[Warpath]

I forgot to mention there may be something occurring which steers the axle during cornering. Changing to a stiffer bushing may increase or decrease the amount the axle is steered. It gets too complicated to figure out for my simple mind.

[SergntMac]

Thank you, Barry, for a very informative pic. I'm stealing it, just thought you should know.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/6/2/7/BUSHING2Large.jpg

They say a pic is worth a thousand word, gents. Notice the driver's side Watts link in the upper center of the pic. Notice what it's made of, how it's constructed, and how it mounts to the frame. It appears to be at a right angle to the ground as well, and it goes straight across the car towards the center, as you have shown in drawings.

Judging by the manner of mounting to the frame, I'd say the direction traveled is up and down, and (once again) the need to reinforce this linkage, is absent.

I'm not trying to bust anyone's stones, just hoping this pic helps clarify, and yes, those are the Zack and Mac control arms in place tubular mild steel, .125 wall, OEM rubber bushings.

[TooManyFords]

[picture ^ deleted]

They say a pic is worth a thousand word, gents. Notice the driver's side Watts link in the upper center of the pic. Notice what it's made of, how it's constructed, and how it mounts to the frame. It appears to be at a right angle to the ground as well, and it goes straight across the car towards the center, as you have shown in drawings.

Actually, the picture shows the watts link 'parallel' to the ground and at a right-angle to the frame. But I'm sure everyone figured that out. (wink!)

Before we shoot this horse, I only have one thing to add to this thread.

So far I'm in total agreement with everything said starting with the thread correction about requiring a "modified" watts link. Drag racers will never need a modified watts link. period.

But nowhere in this thread was the theory and practice of G-Forces discussed. Moving forward from a dead stop, does anyone know how many G's are exerted against the 4 control arms? I'd run right out to my car and test this with my G-tech but I'm still waiting for my motor! I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it is somewhere south of 1 G.

Ok, but how about lateral G's? You know, turning a tight circle until the tires break loose. ?? Again, somewhere south of 1 G as I think the Corvette and maybe the Ford GT get to or over 1 G. With sticky tires for auto-crossing though, I bet it's right up there, no?

Bear with me, there is a point...

We have 4 control arms for forward/reverse Gs, and only 1 for lateral. If the G's in lateral movement are almost equal, wouldn't it be prudent for those that are pushing lateral movement "want" to upgrade the watts?

Just food for thought is all.

Cheers!

john

[TripleTransAm]

Great shot. Does the other end of each control arm look the same? (ie. a wider 'sleeve' than the stockers).

I was thinking about Joe's post about rear-self-steering (which I believe can occur to a small extent based on his description, more thinking to be done in the next few days). Most of our discussions have centered (no pun intended) on the axle's up/down movements, but until Joe's post we had not considered any irregular movement (for instance, one side deflecting over uneven pavement while the other remains undisturbed).

So using the above photo (which appears to be facing frontwards from under the rear axle), let's see what happens when that wheel immediately to our left travels up while the wheel way over to our right (way out of the photo) stays put (relative to the car's body). With the stock thin control arms, the axle will rise on one side, and you can imagine the stock control arms being able to 'flop' on the bushings. This is because they are simply used for front/rear location... they take force in a front/rear direction (in and out of the screen, in our photo above) but serve no purpose against any side-to-side forces. And this is why the Watts link is there. The Watts link arms also appears to be able to 'flop', most likely to address the issues that Joe brought up about angle changes as the axle travels up and down irregularly. Otherwise binding would occur.

So with these aftermarket control arms, let's imagine the same deflection of one side of the axle. The bolts securing the control arms are now holding a greater deal of force... they are trying to keep the control arms perpendicular to both the axle and body at the same time. For sure you need the factory soft bushings with this kind of control arm, otherwise something would break. to see this, imagine the control arm sleeve you see in the photo as your fist, clamped around the bolt (in other words, stick your fist out in front of you, with the knuckles facing up). With hard bushings both up front and back (ie. your fist and your shoulder), imagine your wrist trying to keep the same relation with your fist as your shoulder moves up/down. Your fist isn't going to rotate, so the load is on your wrist, and that's where things would break with this kind of twisting. The soft bushings allow your fist to follow your wrist during this kind of twist, otherwise you'd either break at the wrist (the weld between rod and sleeve) or you'd twist off whatever mounting point on the frame provided the bolt didn't give way first.

With these control arms in place, no doubt the car will feel like it is planted on the ground... because it is. The wide solid sleeve acts as a second sway bar, preventing the axle from doing any one-side-higher-than-the-other deflections. With harder bushings, you might as well add a third sway bar, that's how much harder the axle's going to be held parallel to the body.

Softer bushings or not, I'd hate to clip the edge of a sidewalk with one rear tire on a quick sharp turn. The sudden sharp application of twist to that 'fist' might snap off the bolt or twist the mounting location on the frame (or axle) to a pretzel. Maybe there isn't enough axle deflection in the end to get beyond the breaking point of either bolt, welds, or mounting points, but now I finally understand why boxed control arms for F-bodies are frowned on with hard bushings.

Of course this is just my opinion. but I invite you all to visually map it while looking at that photo and imagining the forces involved. I'd greatly appreciate any details as to where I missed something.

[Warpath]

I gotta stop thinking about this stuff before my head explodes. I'll have to reread your post Steve. It kept making me think of other stuff and I may have missed something. Anyway, you are correct in a way. If you change your control arms, keep an eye on the frame and axle attachments. I'm not saying anything will happen. But, just keep an eye on it just in case.

I think we're all basically on the same track. I believe most of us are stating that the steel in the Watts link doesn't need to be upgraded. The majority of the change comes from the bushings. I think your better off buying a new aftermarket link than trying to swap bushings in the stock link. Anyway, to expand on my thinking that the axle is steered, look at this picture.

http://tinypic.com/k1s4dx.jpg

The upper picture shows the Watts link’s contribution if you take a left turn. The load exerted by the ground is essentially along the axis of the axle. However, the Watts pivot is not along the center of the axle (I’m assuming). Therefore these two forces act to rotate the axle as shown in red. This rotation steers the axle. It creates oversteer in this example. I believe this is what is called compliant oversteer.

The lower picture is again what occurs in a left hand turn and shows the contribution of the trailing arms. The rear trailing arms are not exactly parallel but I’m assuming are splayed outward. Since they are not parallel, the axle will rotate as it moves laterally. This rotation adds oversteer.

So, you might be thinking that I’ve explained the oversteer that Fordnut mentioned. Almost. The problem is that the stiffer bushings in the aftermarket Watts link would reduce the lateral movement of the axle and reduce oversteer (lower picture). I can only guess what really happens is that with soft stock bushings, the axle simply moves laterally without rotating much. In other words, the axle moves straight to the left in the picture as if being slid. When a stiffer Watts link is used, it prevents the axle from sliding to the left and forces it to rotate more (as in the upper picture).

I’ve given up thinking about it because I’ll never figure it out without a computer model. When thinking about these things, you have to remember that the bushings deflect under loads from acceleration, cornering, etc. and essentially change the suspension geometry. Each bushing may be a different stiffness making it difficult to calculate. The steel and aluminum components deflect too but to a lesser degree (normally).

As a side note, Steve’s post reminded me that your axle is a stabilizer bar too. Since the upper and lower control arms are different lengths, they rotate the axle as the suspension travels. Since one wheel goes up and one goes down relative to the body during cornering, they rotate the axle in opposite directions. Thus, they twist the axle. That is why the new Mustang is a 3 link rear with Panhard rod. Since there is only one upper control arm, the axle isn’t twisted. Sorry Mac, I got carried away again.

[jawz101]

I decided to shimmy under my car like a retard tonight as I was taking some other pics and get a shot of the damn thing. Maybe we can close this with comments on the fine craftsmanship.

Here are some setups on other vehicles that you can actually see
http://www.griggsracing.com/ART/Guy_Watts_Link.jpg
http://classictrucks.com/tech/0503cl_watts_01_z.jpg

[Zack]

All you have to do is ride with a set of our control arms on your car to know.
I really wish someone would do a comparison between the 2 brands. Regular driving, road track, etc.
I have a brand new set with bushings Im willing to loan out for such a test.

[SergntMac]

We have 4 control arms for forward/reverse Gs, and only 1 for lateral. If the G's in lateral movement are almost equal, wouldn't it be prudent for those that are pushing lateral movement "want" to upgrade the watts? Cheers! john Want? Sure, do what you want. If lateral G's are your concern, there is only one option, upgrade. But, we have not seen any damaged or failed OEM Watts links anywhere that I know of today, and IMHO, there's your proof. A need for a reinforced Watts link is absent, period.
All you have to do is ride with a set of our control arms on your car to know.
I really wish someone would do a comparison between the 2 brands. Regular driving, road track, etc.
I have a brand new set with bushings Im willing to loan out for such a test. I'm indifferent to any testing or comparasion at this time, simply because production is closed. Frankly, I don't think anyone here has the nutz to take you up on the offer, but should someone volunteer, go for it.

Funny, isn't it. Now this discussion turns to control arms, and a potpouri of "maybe", and "what if", which IMHO is all mental masturbation to begin with. Honestly, if you clipped curb at speed, you would probably wreck a lot more than a control arm mount. Moreover, which material would tolerate a sudden and sharp impact better? Aluminum, or, mild steel? Well, you don't see any aluminum sway bars, eh? I'll take steel, thank you.

There doesn't have to be any maybe and what if about control arms, because we have reality. 50 some sets of arms in circulation for two years now, not one reported failure, or, complication that we know of. Hell, I still have the prototypes on my #1x, and all I wish is that I had powdercoated them before the install for testing. They have some light rust showing, surface stuff I can wire brush away. Maybe I'll change all that this spring.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/showimage.php?i=975&c=3

I've driven all over the country on them, through some serious twisties at speed. No problems, no squeaking and no wheel hop at the launch. Moreover, I have never seen anyone launch a Marauder harder than Zack. His 1.60 sixty foot times say all that need to be said about the violence control arms endure.

I know two or three sets have been resold for a variety of reasons, none of which due to construction, performance, or, lack thereof. One factor we considered in design, was stealth. Most of the MMs signed on here two years ago, were still under factory warranty, and stealth was one of our selling points. I had a FMC factory rep look over my MM (admiring the Kenny Brown treatment) and he looked dead at the control arms, never raised an eyebrow. But, he did notice the Addco sway bar. Yep, they are not pretty, because they were never meant to be jewelry. But, they do their job very very well.

Testing...It's been done. To the maybes and what if...What ever.

[Warpath]

...Moreover, which material would tolerate a sudden and sharp impact better? Aluminum, or, mild steel? Well, you don't see any aluminum sway bars, eh? I'll take steel, thank you...

Yes, aluminum yields at a lower load than some steels. Therfore, you have to make the aluminum part larger than the steel part so that the stresses are lower in the aluminum part than the steel part. In other words, just because it is aluminum, it doesn't mean it will yield easier.

You don't see aluminum stabalizer bars because they would have to be huge. Aluminum is about 1/3 the stiffness of steel for the same shape and size. Therefore it has to be a great deal bigger to give the same stiffness. Also, aluminum always has an endurance limit. It is possible not to have one in steel if the stresses are low enough. In other words, if the stresses in the steel part are low enough, the steel part will never crack. Aluminum on the other hand will always crack. The lower the stress, the longer it will take to crack. Therefore, you have to design the part so that it will never crack during the useful life of the vehicle (which may increase the bar size more and it may end up weighing more than the steel bar).

So, your generalization that steel is worse than aluminum is too general.

Anyway, I think we're still talking about different things. I'm passed the steel/aluminum parts and just talking about bushings and their affects. Actually I'm done with that too.

[SergntMac]

So, your generalization that steel is worse than aluminum is too general. Hehehe...That wasn't my generalization. My preference is for steel construction.

The last time I saw a pair of PHP control arms, the ends of the arms had a band of steel w***** around the outside, I presume to reinforce the aluminum bushing race. Smart move, with the power he's putting to the back wheels, you could tear the control arm right off the bushing.

[jimlam56]

All you have to do is ride with a set of our control arms on your car to know.
I really wish someone would do a comparison between the 2 brands. Regular driving, road track, etc.
I have a brand new set with bushings Im willing to loan out for such a test.
Wanna sell 'em???:D

[Zack]

Wanna sell 'em???:D

Nope!
Sorry. :D

[RCSignals]

Wanna sell 'em???:D


He better not sell them to you. He wouldn't sell them to me at MV2. So there. :P

[Warpath]

<click> Mac - After 72 posts, it finally clicked what you were talking about. I never claimed to be quick. Anyway, you are stating that there is no point in upgrading the Watts link because it will never fall apart. On the other hand, people have had the stock trailing arms fall apart. The bushing holes were oblong and the bushings became loose in the arm (I forgot about that). The Watts link on the other hand has not shown that to happen. So, why upgrade them? If that is your thinking, then I completely agree with you. A person will not get a longer life out of upgraded Watts links. However, they will get a handling difference.

I am purposely stating a handling difference and not stating an improvement in handling because I think most people would not want the outcome Fordnut had (if changing the link alone). I think as a package with different stabilizer bars might be considered an improvement.

[RCSignals]

<click> ...................

I am purposely stating a handling difference and not stating an improvement in handling because I think most people would not want the outcome Fordnut had (if changing the link alone). I think as a package with different stabilizer bars might be considered an improvement.

or get you back to where you started, considering the outcome Fordnut had.

[woaface]

There's only one thing that REALLY gets my goat and that is saying that the Marauder is for kicking as 1% of the time and riding nice 99% of the time.

The way you drive zack, I'm suprised you'd say such a thing. Many members here beat the poo out of their cars and some sit them in garages forever, but either way, this car was born, bred and modified over and over aftermarket to kick ass every minute whenever it's asked WHILE providing a nice ride at the same time. Period.

[arco]

I will test the various types.
All you have to do is ride with a set of our control arms on your car to know.
I really wish someone would do a comparison between the 2 brands. Regular driving, road track, etc.
I have a brand new set with bushings Im willing to loan out for such a test.