STS vs. Marauder

[b4z]

From an STS owner's mpoint of view:

http://discussions.gmforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=35344

[TripleTransAm]

Stock for stock, I think he's toast. I heard low 15s for 1/4 mile times for the late 90s STS cars. Isn't a broken-in Marauder good for that kind of performance?

Anyway, I'd join that board just to clarify the issue but what will it help? If the MM does win the rematch, all the better (will he actually admit to it publicly?). If he doesn't admit it and lies about winning, well then everyone will think they've got it over the MM, and that will make it so much sweeter when other Cadillacs get wiped by stock MMs themselves. If the MM does lose, well then... that's just the way life goes.

[Fourth Horseman]

Hell, I can't get any STS guys to race me around here. I keep trying, though.

[RCSignals]

I don't have the specs at hand, but from what I've seen, the 4.6 DOHC in the Marauder has better HP and TQ specs than the 4.6l Northstar engine.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by RCSignals
the 4.6 DOHC in the Marauder has better HP and TQ specs than the 4.6l Northstar engine.


Peak numbers do not tell the whole story. Cam profiles, port dimensions, even bore/stroke relationships will determine the torque curve. Then there's the matter of weight, gearing, and in extreme speeds... aerodynamics.

I have no doubt a stock broken-in MM will give a stock Northstar fits. I can't get over how such a heavy car (not in a spiritual sense, I'm talking tonnage here) can charge so hard at higher engine speeds... and my car still has under 300 km on it!


I wonder if we could track down a stock Northstar dyno curve.

[RCSignals]

It's funny reading some General motors guys views on ford products. they are always "experts" on them :lol:


I was pretty disappointed by the Merc. They should've gotten right down to business and stuffed the 390hp sc Cobra motor in there...instead they just use the 302hp n/a one! No wonder they have decided against keeping the car around due to slow sales. It is barely faster than a stock Crown Vic with the police package! If they had given it respectable power and a better interior I think the car would've had a chance. (Also, sitting in that car's interior is like a trip back to the 80's.)

As if the crown Vic Police package is a performance screamer :lol:

the interior of a Marauder is far superior to any STS


This line from one of them about the guy's O2 sensor was funny too
"It shouldn't, but leave it in there, that way IF you do lose, you can say, "Hey, my car's not running right, and you still only barely won." "

He should have said "If you do lose again :lol:

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by RCSignals

"It shouldn't, but leave it in there, that way IF you do lose, you can say, "Hey, my car's not running right, and you still only barely won."


Ricer talk...

[MI2QWK4U]

"It is barely faster than a stock Crown Vic with the police package!"
"As if the crown Vic Police package is a performance screamer."

From personal knowledge, and from talking to the traffic guys, the fastest any of our guys have had a 2002 Crown Vic Police Interceptor scout car up to was 112 MPH, that was a semi marked car with no overheads. In comparison, the Marauder with the Eaton supercharger ran easily up to 135, and was still pulling fairly well...so I can't even say that is the top end, and think the car had another 5-10 MPH in her. My next door neighbor has been a mechanic at a Cadillac dealership for 20 some years, and wanted to drive the Marauder when I got it. He didn't have glowing reviews on the CTS, in fact, they are in for service all the time and are pieces of ****. Was very impressed with the Marauder and loved the feel and the way it ran....so you be the judge!

[BlackHole]

Big Black and Bad thats all I'm saying.

[gja]

I have run 2 STS, 1 with big 'ol wheels that looked stoooopid.
I busted both of them so bad they ran home with their tails between their wheels. They are REALLY nice luxury cars, but no match for the beast. Don't get me wrong, I would like to own one, just not for 46 grand the way I like it outfitted. Too much cash for tha cow. GM is outta their minds with the pricing.
Plus, first serious curve and I will leave so much road between the Merc and the GM, the GM driver will need binoculars to follow me.

"BUH-BYE"
"What didn't you understand...the BUH or the BYE?"

[LightningVic]

my 1995 crown victoria hpp did 130 I had a buddy in the car as a witness lol, and I know that my current crown vic would rape that car, only my new one has a speed limiter, so I dont know what it will do. I know that a marauder would rape my 95 though, so I imagine with the speed limiter gone 140 to 145 would sound reasonable. The mid 90s impalas did 140 and I heard 1 report of 150 stock (the last one was unverified, but it wouldnt suprise me), and your cars have way more HP at the top end and pull harder at the top end, so it wouldnt suprise me if you could match it stock for stock. Food to munch on.

[LincMercLover]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
Ricer talk...

My thoughts exactly.

- "Well, you have four more cylinders then me!"

- "Umm... sorry?"
:shake:

[vaderv]

I had posted something simular. I have raced and ate no fewer than nine STSs in and around the Detroit, Ann Arbor area of southeast Michigan. One of them was all the way from Georgia. He got creamed on Canton Center Road in Canton MI. They are not even a challenge. If I had spent that kind of money on that car I'd be real pissed off myself...

[RCSignals]

It's a little off topic, but for those interested here is a little on what Ford had at the latest Michigan State Police tests

http://www.policemag.com/t_cipick.cfm?rank=87964


Ford brought out a prototype Crown Victoria with 3.55 rear gears compared with the 3.27-1 rear axle ratio of the standard Crown Victoria. This prototype also had a larger air intake box, which was good for an additional 7 horsepower. You may soon see the lower gear ratio as an option for urban police departments where quicker acceleration is more important than top speed.


Another prototype Crown Victoria at the Michigan test attracted a lot of attention for one very good reason. It was fast—very fast. The experimental Crown Vic sports a slightly detuned Mercury Marauder engine for truly impressive performance—in the LT-1 Caprice category with a 141-mph top speed. But don’t go and hammer your Ford Dealer for one, just yet. There are several technical hurdles to overcome.


And then there is the cost factor. If it becomes available, the dual overhead cam Marauder engine will add about $2,000 over and above the price of a standard Crown Vic.



BTW, the price of a standard CVPI (without options) varies because it has fleet pricing, but would be anywhere from 21,000 to 23,000 dollars or so.

[derek77]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
I wonder if we could track down a stock Northstar dyno curve.

http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/engines_cartruck/northstar/46_torque.htm

Has anyone raced one at the track or has everyone just raced them on the street? I'm sticking by my words. I still think the STS will take a Marauder stock for stock. Motor Trend says it runs 14.8 in the 1/4. Go easy on me guys.

[SergntMac]

Looking at the specs of the N/Star motor posted by Derek77, it seems a fair challenge. What OEM gearing choices do the caddy owner's get?

While our stock 3:55s don't do much for the launch, I'm sure we're quicker than the STS. The MM screams away from the competition once the power comes on. Looks like a no brainer to me, once the MM loosens up a bit.

Not to bragg here, but I've added every bolt-on mod presently available for the MM, and I have to say that the MM is the fastest sedan on the street, period. Some of you have driven my car, any disagreements? I can't wait for May 17th at the Grove, and see where I clock in. If I'm not in the high 13s, it will be my fault for not driving her right. We'll see, eh?

[MAD-3R]

I think the Torqu curve for the N-Star is flatter then ours, and that would allow him to be a quicker. But it also does depend on the final gear as to how hard that power hits the road.

[derek77]

What OEM gearing choices do the caddy owner's get?

Transmissions--------SLS 4T80-E------------------STS 4T80-E
Type: 4-speed electronic automatic with overdrive and viscous- type converter clutch
Gear ratios (:1):
First:---------------------2.96------------------------------2.96

Second:------------------1.63------------------------------1.63

Third:---------------------1.00------------------------------1.00

Fourth:-------------------0.68------------------------------0.68

Reverse:-----------------2.13------------------------------2.13

Final drive ratio:--------3.11------------------------------3.17


Not to bragg here, but I've added every bolt-on mod presently available for the MM, and I have to say that the MM is the fastest sedan on the street, period. Some of you have driven my car, any disagreements? I can't wait for May 9th at the Grove, and see where I clock in. If I'm not in the high 13s, it will be my fault for not driving her right. We'll see, eh?

Well crap! I think you'll make alot of STS's look pretty stupid myself. I'm talking off the dealer lot. MM are a lot easier to mod than a STS. Their's just not a market for aftermarket parts for Caddy's, not unless you want some bling, bling wheels. I don't know of many 70 year old grannies that what more power out of their Caddy. Do you?

[SergntMac]

With final drive ratios of 3:11 and 3:17, a bone stock heads up challenge against an STS/SLS is no race. An MM may not win by car lengths, but it will win.

One of the reasosn I bought an MM to begin with, is that I could see an upgrade path ahead. That path may not be smoothly paved right now, but it's there, if you want to build your car. Even if you don't want to tinker, the MM is still the fastest sedan on the street.

[derek77]

I'm sorry. I can't see a winner by comparing gear ratios, torque numbers, and horsepower numbers. I could throw in that the STS is lighter than the MM. I have to see it at the track. And they don't even have to be racing against each other. That way it wouldn't come down to driver ability, because we all know these cars won't turn them over at the track. ;) So it's basically, push the gas pedal to the floor when the light turns green.


Even if you don't want to tinker, the MM is still the fastest sedan on the street.

I don't know about this statement. It might need to be stated: the MM is the fastest full-sized American sedan on the street. That's if it's quicker than the STS, which know one has proved to me it is. I have numbers, be it from Motor Trend, that show the STS is still quicker.

[prchrman]

My sister owns a STS and it is pretty quick...haven't raced it and will not in the future...her husband is not real keen on it and this is his words..."it's to small inside"...he is about 6'2" and 200 lbs...I did not know the interior was that cramped...from what I have heard from some other guys on this site is that many of us are over 6' and need some rooooom...MM is the perfect fit...also let me add 10 to 17 thousand dollars to my MM to equal the price and then we will see who has the fastest ride...:uzi::flamer:

[derek77]

Uh oh. I posted something wrong. The GM site says 3.11 and 3.17 gears, which seems to me, a little to close to notice a difference and pointless. But at the Cadillac site, it says 3.11 and 3.71, which seems more like it. Sorry for the confusion.

[TAF]

In my book...cars should be rated on three levels:
1) Performance
2) Handling
and,
3) Comfort

On those three issues, there is nothing on the marketplace in a 4-door, 5 passenger (or within recent years INCLUDING the Impala SS) which can stack up even at sticker price of $35K. Add that most can now buy for $28-$29K and my point is made even stronger.

NOW...add $16K even to straight sticker with a Kenny Brown setup and you have a "World Class" automobile that I would stack-up against ANYTHING in the above three catagories even up to $85K.

Let the flames begin, or just prove this wrong.

[derek77]

In my book...cars should be rated on three levels:
1) Performance
2) Handling
and,
3) Comfort

On those three issues, there is nothing on the marketplace in a 4-door, 5 passenger (or within recent years INCLUDING the Impala SS) which can stack up even at sticker price of $35K. Add that most can now buy for $28-$29K and my point is made even stronger.

That's a pretty broad statement. A few come to mind off the top of my head. You should add V-8, RWD, and I guess now, just as big or bigger than the MM.



NOW...add $16K even to straight sticker with a Kenny Brown setup and you have a "World Class" automobile that I would stack-up against ANYTHING in the above three catagories even up to $85K.

Kenny Brown cars are considered STOCK!! That's like saying NASCAR is STOCK.

[TAF]

Originally posted by derek77
That's a pretty broad statement. A few come to mind off the top of my head. You should add V-8, RWD, and I guess now, just as big or bigger than the MM.

No need to ad V8 or RWD, anything else would not fit the comfort catagory or 4-Door. Even the STS does not fit the comfort factor, except maybe "creature comforts" which come with a $10-$15K sticker difference. Show me your list of under $35K that would match or exceed the MM in the above 3 categories...



Kenny Brown cars are considered STOCK!! That's like saying NASCAR is STOCK.

Never said KB was stock, I said add $15K to the $35K sticker for a MM for a KB upgrade, and I'd put it up against anything under $85K in the above 3 categories and still have $35K in my pocket.
Would like to see your list for this one, as well...

Edited by LincMercLover to look right.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by TAF
No need to ad V8 or RWD, anything else would not fit the comfort catagory or 4-Door. Even the STS does not fit the comfort factor, except maybe "creature comforts" which come with a $10-$15K sticker difference. Show me your list of under $35K that would match or exceed the MM in the above 3 categories.

Give it up TAF, it's times like this when you can tell if someone owns an MM or not.

Interesting story I can share here, because it's not deserving of it's own thread. Neither does it apply to this thread, but I'll deposit it anyway.

Last week, a friend of mine who owns a '79 Corvette, SB, Auto, 4:10s, wanted to race my Girl one last time before he turns the Vette over to a new owner. We've played around every once in a while, after I added something new to the MM, but now that I'm pretty much done with the available bolt-ons, he wanted one more try. I tossed him the keys and told him to try the MM alone before we do, and he came back with a no thanks, he wanted to keep the last win he owns.

I think he's tempted by the prospect of a Silver '04 MM hobby, and just waiting to see if an '04 model will be offered. If it is, I may join him, the silver is very aluring, in KB-S trim.

[prchrman]

TAF...could be another case of "casting pearls"...auto fair in Charlotte this W/E...anyone going???...I am on 4-4-03...

[derek77]

DiamlerChrysler:
Mercedes-Benz C-Class

GM:
Buick Regal GS
Cadillac STS
Oldsmobile Aurora
Pontiac Bonneville SSEI soon to be GXP
Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
Subaru WRX

Honda:
Acura TL Type-S
Honda Accord

Volkswagon:
Passat

BMW:
3-Series

Nissan:
Nissan Altima
Nissan Maxima
Infiniti G35

That's all I can think of now. Maybe something will come up later. A lot of future product coming but don't do much right now.


Never said KB was stock, I said add $15K to the $35K sticker for a MM for a KB upgrade, and I'd put it up against anything under $85K in the above 3 categories and still have $35K in my pocket.

Well I could get a WRX put $5K in it and still beat you after you get your KB MM. This is getting out of hand. I thought we were talking about the MM vs. the STS.

[prchrman]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah yackety smackety...MM rules on the road or on paper...just that simple...:uzi::uzi::burnout::b urnout::up:

[LincMercLover]

We all know what's out there, and right now, there's NOTHING out there that any editorial can substancially compare ALL the features of the Marauder to. Plain and simple. Car and driver's Honda Accord comparison is a solid "case and point."

I think this thread has wondered off far enough...