Granatelli COP coil upgrade -quantitative results? [Archive]

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metroplex

11-26-2005, 07:01 AM

Does anyone have quantitative results of the GMS COP coil upgrade?

I took apart a 2V COP coil and there was no adhesive for the boot. It was a friction fit (barb connection on coil itself) and the spring coil clips onto a tab under the coil.

The resistance of the coil itself was around 5 ohms. If GMS advertises near-0 ohm resistance of their coil connectors, I'm wondering how much of an actual effect it has on engine performance.

fastblackmerc

11-26-2005, 07:11 AM

SergntMac

11-26-2005, 07:20 AM

I could pull one of mine out and test it, but honestly, it's below zero with the wind chill today, and I just don't want to know the answer bad enough.

metroplex

11-26-2005, 07:24 AM

I wasn't talking about the resistance of the connector, but actual improvements in engine hp/tq on the dyno. I believe someone here Either FOrdnut or Sgt Mac, noticed a drop in ET on the 1/4 track.
But if someone could measure the resistance of the connector, it'd be a start for a comparison at least. :) and I'm surprised no one actually checked it when they bought it. "Near-0 ohm" could mean 5 ohms or 10 ohms in terms of connector resistance.

BK_GrandMarquis

11-26-2005, 07:24 AM

I could pull one of mine out and test it, but honestly, it's below zero with the wind chill today, and I just don't want to know the answer bad enough.

You mean the windy city is really windy? :D

BK_GrandMarquis

11-26-2005, 07:25 AM

I wasn't talking about the resistance of the connector, but actual improvements in engine hp/tq on the dyno. I believe someone here Either FOrdnut or Sgt Mac, noticed a drop in ET on the 1/4 track.
But if someone could measure the resistance of the connector, it'd be a start for a comparison at least. :)

I think it was Mac but he also said the runs were not all done on the same day.

metroplex

11-26-2005, 07:28 AM

Oh ok!

Well it'd be interesting nonetheless. But if its too cold, don't go outside. It's not that important.

BK_GrandMarquis

11-26-2005, 07:32 AM

Here is a quote from the other thread.

I have done some testing at the race track, but it doesn't look like I'll get time to do the live data logging on a dyno that I had planned. At the track, I was able to do a number of passes where my MM was in relatively similar condition, i.e. street tires, street tune, street fuel, and so on. But these passes occured on different days, and are not "back to back". My performance improved from 12.4x through 12.3x and down to 12.218/113.02 MPH.

Is this all from this mod? No. But, I believe this mod has it's bang for the buck, and if you have ever had any spark plug wire mysteries, here's the solution.

metroplex

11-26-2005, 07:42 AM

Ok that clears it up! Thanks.

Blackened300a

11-26-2005, 08:00 AM

The Verdict is still out on this one. Unless you dyno the car before and then then after the installation, We are all just guessing!

FordNut

11-26-2005, 08:17 AM

Coil packs are still on backorder, should be coming about mid-December as of latest update. I didn't get the wires, ordered the whole assembly. As I stated earlier, I'll be doing dyno tests with 3 pulls once I get them. Baseline (before) pull, swap coils and pull, open plug gaps and pull. Data will be reported then. I'll not be doing disassembly and resistance measurements though. Maybe some of the other members can do that one.

David Morton

11-26-2005, 01:00 PM

Hogwash! I've been working on this ignition stuff for years and there's always somebody claiming this or that but the bottom line is...

...if the factory could have put somthing on the car that would have increased efficiency of the ignition resulting in a lower ET, they would have done it to get better mileage. As a matter of fact that's exactly what they did!

The resistance plays a part in the total design of the ignition secondary, and having low or no resistance in a coil wire has little to do with the energy of the spark. It's the total resistance of the whole circuit that determines the voltage of the spark and the gap of the spark plug makes 1000 times more difference than any 5 or 10 ohms in a coil wire.

They are selling stuff to guys that don't understand electricity, by telling you crap like "no resistance" as if resistance was the enemy. It's not. The ignition system on our engines is one of the best OEM engineered secondarys in the business. This test data stuff is also highly suspect. Usually a guy drives differently trying to justify a couple hundred dollars expense, so even mileage figures are doctored, even if sub-conciously.

Let somebody come put one on my car without my knowledge and then we'll see.

Actually, ignition components is one of the most lucrative areas for unscrupulous or ignorant (can't prove which) aftermarket suppliers to make millions because most people don't have even the slightest understanding of electrical principles. And it's obvious they know this by saying things like, "Has little or no resistance!"

BULL*****! :mad2:

SergntMac

11-26-2005, 07:45 PM

Hogwash!...BULL*****! What ever. I know what these connectors have done for my MM, and that's all the proof I need. Anyone who's ever had problems with spark plug wires, should understand this mod. If it's not for you, (shrug) then it's not for you.

metroplex

11-26-2005, 08:41 PM

Actually I rather enjoyed reading David's post. :) In the meantime, I'm also trying to find some data to backup any claims of performance improvement from the COP coil connectors.

DEFYANT

11-27-2005, 12:59 AM

Yes.. Thank you David. But I am still curious to know if the spark tables would show an improvement on the data logger. The dyno and data logger will show if there is anything to this new gadget.

Like I said else where on this site, the logic is sound. But this could be muffler bearings for all I know.

Marauderjack

11-27-2005, 03:53 AM

For the last year my 04 has had a slight "bucking" in TC lockup and it drove me nuts since it wouldn't throw a code!!:mad2: I tried a TPS...then IAC...then EGR valve and nothing helped so I programed the TC to lock at a higher speed but could still feel it.....kind of like hitting slight dips in the road??:confused:

THE GRANATELLI CONNECTORS FIXED THIS CONDITION COMPLETELY AND AS I STATED BEFORE....THIS IS THE SECOND BEST MOD FOR ME!!:bows: :beer:

I think the fact that the OEM "springy thingy" is mild steel and the coil connector is brass causes some electrolytic corrosion over time and offers higher resistance...maybe causing a "Phantom Misfire" at cruise or light acceleration.:cool: Also the fit at the spark plug is very loose making another sub-standard connection!!;)

Another benefit is slightly improved fuel mileage....consistantly 1.5 MPH better on the road??:)

As far as power.....I cannot feel anything but the DAMN "bucking" is gone completely....FWIW??:bows:

I am a believer......Mr. Morton!!:beer:

Marauderjack:D

David Morton

11-27-2005, 07:41 AM

Marauderjack, you had a bad coil connector and that is what the cause of your bucking was. A cylinder had an intermittent miss and you felt it only when you were in lockup and under slight load. This condition is typical of a bad secondary ignition circuit and never sets a code.

If I were to have the same condition develop on mine and it was out of warranty I just might do exactly the same thing you did, get the GMS coil connectors.

I'm all for high quality parts and I certainly have no doubt the Granatelli coil connectors are the best as you say. But I stand by my earlier post. They won't be making a 1 horspower increase over factory coil connectors that aren't faulty, and any claims that they will is just bull*****.

DEFYANT

11-27-2005, 07:58 AM

Ok.. so they basicly enhance the stock design then. If I develop an odd ignition issue, I will consider these.

SergntMac

11-27-2005, 09:43 AM

I'm all for high quality parts and I certainly have no doubt the Granatelli coil connectors are the best as you say. But I stand by my earlier post. They won't be making a 1 horspower increase over factory coil connectors that aren't faulty, and any claims that they will is just bull*****. We'll all learn more when testing is complete, yes?

rayjay

11-27-2005, 10:18 AM

Simple, a thicker piece of wire will safely transmit more voltage/amps that a thinner piece of wire. Basically the difference between 14 gauge and 12 gauge wire in your home. That, and if Sgt Mac says it works, I believe him.

SergntMac

11-27-2005, 11:46 AM

Ignition systems are a critical component of any car, regardless of how you may use it. When you're building more power, the ignition system is one third of the supporting cast, and it deserves one third of your attention.

Summit = 13. Jegs = 15.

That how many pages of ignition mods these two major suppliers offer us, and without much in test results, or, empirical data. Not much of this stuff is usefull to a Marauder, but the market is coming around to us. Seems to me none of these companies would spend dime one on research, development, production, marketing, or, sales, if the OEM stuff was indeed the best stuff you can get. It's pretty risky to anticipate making money off of smoke and mirrors, companies like Granatelli, MSD, Accel wouldn't chance running a game with false, even marginal, advertising.

A while back, Zack and I played vendors, and sold a few sets of home brewed control arms. A sales pitch was involved to get the ball rolling until customer satisfaction could pitch in, and I knew from word 1, every single letter of every sentence had to be absolute truth. It was, and we sold about 50 sets. Know what we paid back to dissatisfied customers? Zero.

Will these COP wires add 1 horsepower? 1 pound of torque? I can't say they'll add any power at all, and I'm not claiming they will. But, if they solve problems and allow for a better, more focused tune, they are worth the investment. I believe this is exactly what took place. I believe these "wires" helped me knock another .2 off my ET., and it's not a leap of faith to see how. 20K volts of electricity that faces 5 ohms of resistance, will deliver more of that energy than the same 20K volts facing 15 ohms of resistance and you don't need to be an electrician, or, an engineer, to understand this.

David, you applied some more of that "subtle insinuation" I mentioned in another thread, here in this thread. You did'nt name me, but I have done some talking aboout this mod, and most know that. 120 bucks isn't "hundreds of dollars", and I have not fudged any MPG stats. I'll take this in stride, sir, but that's twice now. :nono:

Maybe I cannot prove my beliefs about this mod at the present time, but neither can they be disproven. All I have are a few timeslips. I haven't been able to get back to the dyno yet, but once I do, my gains could be even more than I expect. It's possible I could retune and gain significant power, and you cannot say this is not possible. Okay, let's wait and see. Meanwhile, those who buy and install a set of these wires will know right away.

David Morton

11-27-2005, 12:54 PM

Sergentmac, I didn't know about you. Please accept my apology, it was not my intent to insinuate anything about you personally.

I'd hoped people could understand my mention of the spark gap being much more significant than 5 or even 15 ohms resistance in a wire. You can't measure the resistance of a gap, it's infinite, until enough voltage is created at the gap to bridge it with the spark.

MSD ignition does show gains in efficiency, but the cost is too high for manufacturers to pay (licencing fees to the patent owner) so we don't get that stock. MSD would be an improvement over stock, but in my opinion the improvement isn't worth the cost unless you want the absolute most you can get, damn the cost.

What I'm trying to get across is that the resistance of the wire only plays a role when the current of the spark is taken into account, it has no effect on the spark energy, the gap controls that. Back in the 80s we had Accel wires that had hundreds of ohms resistance in them (to eliminate radio interference) and we were still "breaking" at 20,000 volts to the plug. With lower resistance, a thicker wire is needed to keep the wire from frying. That's all the thicker wire is doing. And if you were an electrical engineer, you'd know that.

Electrons and how they behave is a lot different than control arms. Plumbing and pipe size analogies only take you so far in electrical theory. It's not that it chaps my a$$ or gets me upset, it's just frustrating to talk electrical theory with somebody that has no training in it, and obviously doesn't understand it, but insists he doesn't need to because his theories "make sense". To understand electrical theory well, you do have to be educated in it. Being a good plumber or having no dissatisfied cutomers on your control arms doesn't change that.

fastblackmerc

01-06-2006, 12:21 PM

Just installed the Granatelli Coil-on-Plug kit from Wes..... took about 15 minutes. No test data yet, will be taking a road trip tomorrow where I'll be able to measure MPG and any SOP I feel. Even if there is no improvment I feel better knowing that my 8 coils are attached to the plugs by something more than a spring from a big pen. See the pics.

rayjay

01-06-2006, 01:39 PM

Marauderjack

01-06-2006, 01:51 PM

Another benefit is your plugs will never back out with these on top!!:beer:

I heard somewhere that plugs removing themselves was a problem on some engines??:confused:

They would have to push the coil covers off first!!!:bows: :banana: :beer:

Marauderjack:D

PS: I am very interested in what improvements the rest of you find using the solid connectors??;)

Dragcity

01-06-2006, 01:57 PM

I'll let you know next week. I am one of the lucky ones in that I have had no problems at all with my car ('cept the subwoofer). I'll notice if there is any change.

The guage of wire just makes sense.

Marauderjack

01-06-2006, 02:04 PM

Gauge of wire and VERY POSITIVE connection!!:beer:

Can't help but improve ignition!!!:bows:

Marauderjack:burnout:

fastblackmerc

01-06-2006, 02:46 PM

I see you managed to get one OEM pen spring out intact like I did :D
That was just the first one I changed... I think I was able to get 2 out "unsprung"..... Don't see why you couldn't just use the old boots, seem to be the same. Maybe could have cut the price down some.... Wonder if that "choke" on the new connector needs to be there?

Dragcity

01-06-2006, 02:48 PM

Is this a contest. It may take me more than 20 minutes....

fastblackmerc

01-06-2006, 02:52 PM

Is this a contest. It may take me more than 20 minutes....
You can do it..... I even disconnected the coil from the harness.

RF Overlord

01-06-2006, 03:35 PM

Wonder if that "choke" on the new connector needs to be there?I'll bet that ferrite choke is to help with RFI suppression (as opposed to RF Overlord suppression :P )...MY question is does it matter which way the new connector goes in...choke at the coil end or choke at the spark plug end?

fastblackmerc

01-06-2006, 04:24 PM

I'll bet that ferrite choke is to help with RFI suppression (as opposed to RF Overlord suppression :P )...MY question is does it matter which way the new connector goes in...choke at the coil end or choke at the spark plug end?
No, when you slide on the boot the ferrite core will ride up to about the same spot everytime.

1. Remove the coil cover(s)
2. Remove one coil (I removed the harness connector also)
3. Pull off the old boot
4. If the old / cheap spring didn't come off, keep pulling on it
5. Install new connector on the coil
6. Install the new boot
7. Put a little silicone grease from the supplied packet on the inside of the boot where it slides over the spark plug
8. Reinstall the assembly on the spark plug
9. Reconnect the coil to the harness if you disconnected it
10. Repeat 7 more times
12. Replace coil cover(s), I put a dab of silicone at the back of the cover, you'll see it goes
13. Step back and admire your latest mod!
14. Sart the MM... want to make sure it still runs :-)

Todd

01-06-2006, 05:14 PM

No, when you slide on the boot the ferrite core will ride up to about the same spot everytime.

1. Remove the coil cover(s)
2. Remove one coil (I removed the harness connector also)
3. Pull off the old boot
4. If the old / cheap spring didn't come off, keep pulling on it
5. Install new connector on the coil
6. Install the new boot
7. Put a little silicone grease from the supplied packet on the inside of the boot where it slides over the spark plug
8. Reinstall the assembly on the spark plug
9. Reconnect the coil to the harness if you disconnected it
10. Repeat 7 more times
12. Replace coil cover(s), I put a dab of silicone at the back of the cover, you'll see it goes
13. Step back and admire your latest mod!
14. Sart the MM... want to make sure it still runs :-)

Just one small correction to #7...

The grease is actually dielectric grease which is used on on the correctors where the wire itself attach to the coil on one end and the plug on the other. It isnt really intended as a lubricant for the boot. Although it probably works in that capacity as well if there is some on there when you slide it on the plug.

I actually pulled the wire out of the boots and put a little on the inside edge 360 degrees around the 'barrels' where it slides on the plug and coil.

fastblackmerc

01-06-2006, 05:54 PM

Just one small correction to #7...

The grease is actually dielectric grease which is used on on the correctors where the wire itself attach to the coil on one end and the plug on the other. It isnt really intended as a lubricant for the boot. Although it probably works in that capacity as well if there is some on there when you slide it on the plug.

I actually pulled the wire out of the boots and put a little on the inside edge 360 degrees around the 'barrels' where it slides on the plug and coil.
I have a tube of it that I use on the plug-end of the boot, I think it stops the boot from sticking after it gets hot. Have had to replace many plug wires because the boots were "welded" to the plug.

rayjay

01-07-2006, 07:18 AM

Be sure to push the connection all the way onto the coil post. I noticed that on a couple of them it felt secure but actually went down farther with a little push. The easiest way to do the install is to remove the coil from the wire. Mine came off very easy, just push the lock and pull. When reattaching you'll know its right when you hear a click.

HwyCruiser

01-07-2006, 10:00 PM

I received my COP connectors today (thanks Wes and Greg). I pulled each plug, checked the gap, reinstalled with a little antiseeze, and then swapped out the connectors. I could really appreciate the obvious difference in construction between the OEM spring connectors and the Granatelli units. It took me about an hour or so to finish up the job.

I could correlate a lot of what Mac said about these on my test drive afterwards. The car started right up and seemed to settle down a little quicker, warm up loop low-load acceleration was smoother, and acceleration at "tip in" was improved. Not that any of this was terrible before, but there's definitely an improvement across the board in how the engine performed from today's prior errand / cruising around town session. It will be interesting to see the fuel economy benefit some people have noted.

I must have had a loose connector somewhere too because these definitely made an improvement. I wonder if the plug end of the OEM spring connectors just become loose after repeated removal and re-installations. Pretty neat little "mod".

metroplex

01-08-2006, 05:48 AM

SergntMac

01-08-2006, 06:54 AM

It'd be interesting to do a test: have two Marauders of identical mods, one with the GMS coil upgrade and one w/o. Have people try out both and see if they notice anything w/o you telling them about the mod. Good idea, Charlie, why don't you set it up. First, find the two identical Marauders...Then we blinfold the driver's...Nevermind.

You seem eager to chill interest in this mod, and I don't get why. For the money involved, I don't think you're going to succeed.

Thank you again, Wes Chain.

metroplex

01-09-2006, 03:04 AM

I have a tube of it that I use on the plug-end of the boot, I think it stops the boot from sticking after it gets hot. Have had to replace many plug wires because the boots were "welded" to the plug.

I use it as well, the Jeep guys have taught me to use more than enough so that it squirms out just a bit.

Dragcity

01-17-2006, 01:01 PM

I finally installed my cop connectors yesterday. I had to wait until it was 20 degrees outside and my garage had another car in it, DUH!

On the way to work this morning I felt a notable improvement in response from the power plant. In my opinion about 10% more responsive. Is this possible from wires. I beilieve yes. I also pulled, cleaned and re-gapped all the plugs to .054. Some were a bit carbon fouled (from poor spark??????)

I may not have Dyno results, but I do have Throttle results...

Thanks Wes, and everyone else

SergntMac

01-17-2006, 02:28 PM

I may not have Dyno results, but I do have Throttle results... Congrats, I'm pleased you like the mod. Thanks to Brian and Wes.

Question...With consideration for the cost of this mod, do you think the difference you feel is worth the cost of side by side dyno tests?

Can anyone do an electrical test for resistance?

Wes...Have any more kits?

jimlam56

01-17-2006, 02:36 PM

Dave and I finally put mine in, along with the new plugs SgtMac kindly recommended. Anyone have an oversize ballpoint in need of a spring?
This mod really is a nobrainer, even if there are no performance gains (And I'm not sure there isn't) Just to know I have a solid connection between coil and plug is worth the price of admission.
Didn't like having to discard 8 perfectly good rubber boots though

Dragcity

01-17-2006, 03:52 PM

I was trying to do side-by-side dynos, but I didn't realize how expensive it was to run a dyno. I thought my friend could do it cheap, but no deal. Was willing to spend a few $$ to get qantitative results. Sorry...

(I think it added, like, 40 RWHP) Not as good as racing stripes I hear!

Warpath

01-18-2006, 10:09 AM

Dragcity

01-18-2006, 01:54 PM

Two different days. Both were 45 - 50 degrees. There is notable improvement. (In my opinion)