Suspension Help!

[BlueThunderPerf]

My name in Jonathan Blakemore. I own a small performance shop in Texas called Blue Thunder Performance. I mainly specialize in Mod motor performance, AODE/4R70W Transmissions, and some Mustang and F-150 suspension work. But about a week ago one of my long time customers(an old man who gives me way too much of his money) brings in this boat called a Marauder and tells me he wants it to be able to beat up on his buddy's S65 AMG Benz. Power's not a problem, we're going to use a 5.2 DOHC with a SHM big bore block, some mild cams, a little porting, and a Procharger D-1SC backed by a built 4R70W. With a good tune that will out power the AMG easily. But in the suspension department I've never touched one of these things and was wondering what mods other people have tried. I love the car but it doesn't exactly like to turn or put power to the ground very well. It can hardly handle 300 hp, and it's only going to be worse with 800. I know it's a watts link type system but I don't know what products are avalible on the aftermarket and what I'm going to have to fab. I already have some SHM springs and ADDCO swaybars on the way. Any comments on what anyone has done or knows as far as suspension upgrades would be greatly appriciated. Any info on brakes would also be nice. Thanks.

[looking97233]

Try the vendors forum. You will be able to find whatever you need.

[MarauderMarc]

A boat??? Be careful what you say about our babies!!! That there is total blasphemy!!!

Metco front and rear upper and lower control arms and a watts link should compliment what you already have planned!

[DEFYANT]

Wide rims and Nittos will greatly help "the boat" get power to the ground.

Though, I smell a covert advertisement that will get this thread deleted right quick.

Did you get blessings from the site bosses?

Good luck with "The Boat"

[teamrope]

For Brakes, Bear & Wilwood make kits for us. For shocks, Nake QA1's. Not sure who sells the QA1's, but I'm sure you can search our forums and find them. :)

[Rider90]

For Brakes, Bear & Wilwood make kits for us. For shocks, Nake QA1's. Not sure who sells the QA1's, but I'm sure you can search our forums and find them. :)
I've got this stuff bookmarked :D

http://www.naake.com/MercMarauder.html


"If you have any questions or would like to place an order,
please contact us at
916-771-0109.
Please ask for Joel Courage.
He is the Project Supervisor for the Mercury Marauder project."

[BlueThunderPerf]

Thanks for the replies. I was in no way trying to put in a plug for my shop or bad mouth this awesome car with my "boat" comment(It is a pretty big car though). I'm actually quite fond of the panther platform, I own a 1997 CVPI with a 1996 Cobra motor myself, but the rear suspension on it is all different. I'm simply trying to find out as much as I can about these cars and figured the best place to go to was the people who drive them. Besides the springs, shocks, swaybars, control arms, watts link, and bushings does anyone know of any other suspension mods? Especially in the area of off the line traction(Traction bars mabey?). I've widened the rear wheels 1 1/2" to spin some 275 Goodyear Eagle rubber(don't know how tall I can go?), but I don't know if that's going to be enough traction, even with a good diff. Thanks again for the replies and keep them coming.

[DEFYANT]

No flames here bud, where can we read more about your cars? CVPL w/ a cobra set up is interesting..

[MM03MOK]

Though, I smell a covert advertisement that will get this thread deleted right quick.

Did you get blessings from the site bosses?
No problem here. He's not selling anything but came to the only place there is to find answers to all his questions.

:welcome1: Jonathan!

[AzMarauder]

Thanks for the replies. I was in no way trying to put in a plug for my shop or bad mouth this awesome car with my "boat" comment(It is a pretty big car though). I'm actually quite fond of the panther platform, I own a 1997 CVPI with a 1996 Cobra motor myself, but the rear suspension on it is all different. I'm simply trying to find out as much as I can about these cars and figured the best place to go to was the people who drive them. Besides the springs, shocks, swaybars, control arms, watts link, and bushings does anyone know of any other suspension mods? Especially in the area of off the line traction(Traction bars mabey?). I've widened the rear wheels 1 1/2" to spin some 275 Goodyear Eagle rubber(don't know how tall I can go?), but I don't know if that's going to be enough traction, even with a good diff. Thanks again for the replies and keep them coming.

With stock rims widened 1.5" these cars can carry Nitto 295 555R or 305 Drag Radials. So you can do larger than 275s. Favorite gear set is 4.10s.

If you are set on the Procharger... then check....

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22779

That kit has already been designed and dialed in. I don't know if this special is still on going but it is a GREAT deal cost/parts provided.

[David Morton]

... Besides the springs, shocks, swaybars, control arms, watts link, and bushings does anyone know of any other suspension mods? Especially in the area of off the line traction(Traction bars mabey?). I've widened the rear wheels 1 1/2" to spin some 275 Goodyear Eagle rubber(don't know how tall I can go?), but I don't know if that's going to be enough traction, even with a good diff. Thanks again for the replies and keep them coming.

The tire most guys use here is in my sig, the Nitto 305/45s don't mess with the computer calibrations much but you may have to use the 7/32" spacers. But you have tires already. Just FYI. There's another good brakes setup here that I use. Check out the Dennis Reinhart store.

No, this suspension doesn't need (and can't use) traction bars. The Metco arms and watts link is top-of-the-line and will give you the best traction and suspension control you can get. They have a shop here.

Oh, and you're gonna need a good driveshaft and loop. DR can supply those too.

Dang bud! If this guys gonna get that 800 hp engine I've been wanting he just may shatter the ten second barrier and then some. I was gonna do that and use dual turbos.

Now I'll have to get that 1600 HP capable engine. :lol:

[FordNut]

Suspension: Addco front & rear sway bars. Metco rear control arms and watts link. Naake QA1 rear shocks. Naake QA1 front coilovers if you really want to carve the twisties. Front end alignment to revised specs found somewhere here on MM.net. Really no need to ditch the rear airbags but if you really wanna switch to coils, then go ahead.

Brakes: Baer, KVR (from Reinhart), Wilwood (from TCE)

Rear tires: Nitto or Goodyear 295/45-18 street or Nitto 305/45-18 drag radials. All will clear without spacers if you get the QA1 rear shocks.

Drivetrain: Built tranny, it's gonna need it. Dynotech metal matrix driveshaft. 4.10 or 4.30 gears.

Sounds like you have a handle on the powerplant for sure.

[BlueThunderPerf]

Thanks for the replies. Unfourtunatly I've already almost finished the fab on the Procharger, I didn't know a kit existed. As for the tune, I'll take care of it myself, Mod motors are my bread and butter. For the suspension I think I've decided to go with the following:
QA1 double adjustable coil-overs up front
QA1 single adjustables and SHM springs out back
ADDCO sway bars
Metco controls arms & watts link
3.73 Gears(Gonna have plenty of power and top end cruising is important to the customer)
Eaton Rear Diff

This guy's pretty set on Goodyear rubber, but I'll try to work on that. Pertaining to brakes does anyone know of a matching front and rear set? Being as I test the crap out of every car I build(dyno, drag strip and road course), I'll post plenty of pictures and numbers when I'm done. I'm sure some of you are dying to see them. Thanks again for the help. As nice as you guys are and as nice as this car is I may have to try to find myself one. Oh yeah, the specs on my CVPI are in my signature now.

[FordNut]

Thanks for the replies. Unfourtunatly I've already almost finished the fab on the Procharger, I didn't know a kit existed. As for the tune, I'll take care of it myself, Mod motors are my bread and butter. For the suspension I think I've decided to go with the following:
QA1 double adjustable coil-overs up front
QA1 single adjustables and SHM springs out back
ADDCO sway bars
Metco controls arms & watts link
3.73 Gears(Gonna have plenty of power and top end cruising is important to the customer)
Eaton Rear Diff

This guy's pretty set on Goodyear rubber, but I'll try to work on that. Pertaining to brakes does anyone know of a matching front and rear set? Being as I test the crap out of every car I build(dyno, drag strip and road course), I'll post plenty of pictures and numbers when I'm done. I'm sure some of you are dying to see them. Thanks again for the help. As nice as you guys are and as nice as this car is I may have to try to find myself one. Oh yeah, the specs on my CVPI are in my signature now.
Sounds like a good setup. I did my own D1SC setup also instead of using a kit. The suspension sounds good, 3.73s are ok, but I can still hit 140 with my 4.10s and cruise 85 all day long at around 3 grand so there's still plenty of cruising potential with lower gears than 3.73s.

Baer and KVR have kits with matching rotors but only replacement calipers for the front. TCE made both a front and rear Wilwood kit but I believe he quit making the rear kit since it was quite expensive and didn't sell very well.

As for tires, be sure and keep the front to rear stagger or you'll have ABS problems. As long as the rears are about 5% bigger than the fronts you're ok.
edit: you'll find numerous members using same size all around, but if they run over 100 for awhile they'll have the ABS light come on. How do I know this???

Sounds like a nice CV, but once you get that Marauder built you'll have to have one just like it!

[marauderboi]

I cant wait to see this car
What color is the marauder

[FordNut]

Whatcha got going for headers? Two choices for tubulars are Kooks (mid-length) and Stainless Works (full length). Stainless Works is a relative newcomer and many of us already had Kooks before they became an option but it would be interesting to see how well they perform.

Mustang/Cobra aftermarket headers won't fit but Cobra shorties will fit with some minor modifications (shim drivers side motor mount about 1/4").

[Warpath]

... Besides the springs, shocks, swaybars, control arms, watts link, and bushings does anyone know of any other suspension mods? Especially in the area of off the line traction(Traction bars mabey?)...

You named every part of a suspension. So, there isn't anything left. :) Traction bars are only good for leaf springs. You would replace the control arms for other suspension types.

[BlueThunderPerf]

You named every part of a suspension. So, there isn't anything left. :) Traction bars are only good for leaf springs. You would replace the control arms for other suspension types.
I was basically asking is there any part of this suspension I missed before I start tearing it apart, and by traction bars I was asking if there was any type of control arm other than the stock design avalible. Possibly something with a little better geometry. Honestly, I'm mainly an engine guy, and this suspension stuff isn't exactly my specialty.


On the exhaust side of things I was planning on using the Kooks headers, but I guess I will have to give the others a look. I don't want shorties though, I have them on my CV and I just don't think they flow good enough.

[FordNut]

I was basically asking is there any part of this suspension I missed before I start tearing it apart, and by traction bars I was asking if there was any type of control arm other than the stock design avalible. Possibly something with a little better geometry. Honestly, I'm mainly an engine guy, and this suspension stuff isn't exactly my specialty.


On the exhaust side of things I was planning on using the Kooks headers, but I guess I will have to give the others a look. I don't want shorties though, I have them on my CV and I just don't think they flow good enough.
On the shorty headers, I totally agree it you're gonna do it then do it right. The Kooks are proven but they are not equal length nor long tube. I don't know if the Stainless Works headers are equal length but they are for sure long tube rather than mid-length.

As for traction bars/control arms, two members here (Zack and Mac) had some made which were tubular and the bottom one was 1/8" longer than stock for revised pinion angle. I have them and they work great but since I haven't compared their performance to the Metco ones first hand I can't say which ones are actually better. Anyway, it was a limited production run of 100sets or so and they are no longer available. You might find a set around here that was never installed or maybe taken off in favor of the Metcos.

[ckadiddle]

Welcome to the collective, Johnathan. Don't forget to recruit your customer for mm.net membership if he uses a computer. ;)

[BlueThunderPerf]

Thanks alot everyone for the support and information. I think I've just about got the project plan done. Pertaining to the control arms, I was thinking of making a slighty longer lower control arm to help with the anti-squat geometry, but after crunching the numbers I'm afraid that doing so would hurt overall handling and possibly add a little too much oversteer. As far as headers does anyone one have a link the the Stainless Works headers. On the issue of my customer, I will definately refer him to the site. I plan on sticking around for a while myself, my CVPI shares alot with the Marauder. I really want a MM myself now though. It fits the kids better than my Mustang and is alot nicer than an ex-cop car. I'm actually going to look at a black '03 today with 22k on it. They want 20k for it, is that a decent deal? It's susposed to be unmodified and imaculant. Thanks again for all the help. This is the friendliest board I've ever posted on.

[Dragcity]

Have fun with the Marauder. It's nice having you aboard.

[teamrope]

I'm actually going to look at a black '03 today with 22k on it. They want 20k for it, is that a decent deal? It's susposed to be unmodified and imaculant.

$22k sounds about average for the milage and condition.

I have an 03 300a that I have put over 45K on, and my wife has an 04 DTR that she has put 40K on. We have met a lot of really good people and had a lot of fun because of these cars. :)

We have the Mack and Zack control arms and they made a noticeable improvement in handeling.:cool:

[mrjones]

Where in TX is your shop? There are quite a few of us here that might want to come by and see the beast you're building - after we receive the appropriate invitation, of course.

[Hotrauder]

Welcome aboard, Blue. Good luck with the Marauder. There is enough old information to keep you busy for months and new 411 arrives everyday. There is no end to the fun. Dennis:beer:

[fastblackmerc]

As far as headers does anyone one have a link the the Stainless Works headers. This is the friendliest board I've ever posted on.
Link for Stainless Works: http://www.stainlessworks.net/cart/index.php

Welcome to the site!

[SergntMac]

Looking at your sig, best strip out that CV/PI before you move it. You already own what a lot of us bought after a bone stock MM.

[BlueThunderPerf]

The shop is in Mesquite, just east of Dallas. Any and all are welcome to come see her when she's done. I'll probably have her a couple weeks after I'm done building her for final engine/chassis tweaks and track testing. Nothing leaves here until I've driven the crap out of it and it meets my approval. We're shooting for a mid Janurary delivery, but my interior and A/V guys have a lot to do on it too, so we'll have to see. I still have to call all the vendors and finish ordering parts. But as soon as she's running on her own four wheels I'll let everyone know and take plenty of pictures. BTW, the engine is buttoned up and going to the dyno for testing tomorrow so I'll have some base numbers soon.

[SergntMac]

800 HP...That's awesome! Just offering a little advice here, if you're aiming for that much power, better weld up the rear housing, and when you order the Eaton, go to 31 spline. Moser has the axles, call Reinhart?

What are your plans for the fuel and ignition systems, if you don't mind me asking?

[martyo]

My name in Jonathan Blakemore. I own a small performance shop in Texas called Blue Thunder Performance. I mainly specialize in Mod motor performance, AODE/4R70W Transmissions, and some Mustang and F-150 suspension work. But about a week ago one of my long time customers(an old man who gives me way too much of his money) brings in this boat called a Marauder and tells me he wants it to be able to beat up on his buddy's S65 AMG Benz. Power's not a problem, we're going to use a 5.2 DOHC with a SHM big bore block, some mild cams, a little porting, and a Procharger D-1SC backed by a built 4R70W. With a good tune that will out power the AMG easily. But in the suspension department I've never touched one of these things and was wondering what mods other people have tried. I love the car but it doesn't exactly like to turn or put power to the ground very well. It can hardly handle 300 hp, and it's only going to be worse with 800. I know it's a watts link type system but I don't know what products are avalible on the aftermarket and what I'm going to have to fab. I already have some SHM springs and ADDCO swaybars on the way. Any comments on what anyone has done or knows as far as suspension upgrades would be greatly appriciated. Any info on brakes would also be nice. Thanks.

I will be watching closely.

[BlueThunderPerf]

Mac,
The engine programming will be handled by a Tweecer RT unit, which is all I use. It allows me to easily make adjustments during track and road testing with just a laptop, and also allows the installation of 4 different tunes not including the stock tune. I'll also use a wide band o2 sensor during testing because I'd have a hard time telling my wife that's money's gonna be tight this month because I blew up a $7,500 engine out of stupidity. For ignition, I'm testing the motor with an MSD Stacker-8 that I have laying around the shop, but I'll probably use a Kenne Bell Boost-A-Spark unit with the stock coils once I get the engine in the car. I've only had good experiences with the Boost-A-Spark. Not sure on the plugs yet, but I'll probably use Autolites as I have about every heat range of them you could imagine here at the shop so I can run and examine a few different ones. The old reliables have never let me down. And as far as the rear end goes, it will be all welded up and braced to hell with some custom 31-Splined Strange axles my buddy at a local machine shop is making me. I've snapped way to many axles in my life to even think about running the stock 28's. It's not much fun turning a hard corner and having a wheel slide off.

[SergntMac]

Thanks for the 411 on ignition, tuning, ansd rear end. My present problem is my fuel system and it's just my luck, the one thing I need more 411 on, is the question you skip. Well, thanks anyway.

BTW, I've been meaning to ask you about your CV with the Cobra DOHC. Which motor mounts did you use, the Cobra, or the CV...Maybe Prothane?

[DEFYANT]

....and how about some more pics?

That is one caleeen CV you got there. -A real sleeper!!

BTW, what color is that? It looks black or blue?

[SergntMac]

BTW, the engine is buttoned up and going to the dyno for testing tomorrow so I'll have some base numbers soon.
I know DFW is fat with hot rod shops, where's your enging dyno? Dynatek?

[BlueThunderPerf]

Mac,
I modded my CV mounts into soild pieces. And what's up with your fuel system, I've done many of these returnless systems and might be able to help.

---

As far as the CVPI, I had it painted blue. It was white before. I'll take some underhood and interior shot on Monday.

I use the engine dyno at Speed Specialtiies.

Dynoed the engine today, I'll post the numbers when I get more time. Let's just say my 800 goal was achieved.

[DEFYANT]

As far as the CVPI, I had it painted blue. It was white before. I'll take some underhood and interior shot on Monday.


Congrats on reaching your goal. I look forward to reading about it. That paint looks great considering the reflection on the hood. What kind of wax do you use?

[SergntMac]

Mac,
I modded my CV mounts into soild pieces. And what's up with your fuel system, I've done many of these returnless systems and might be able to help.
I use the engine dyno at Speed Specialtiies. Dynoed the engine today, I'll post the numbers when I get more time. Let's just say my 800 goal was achieved. 800 hp? Congrats, THAT'S AWESOME.

I was asking what your plans for the MM project fuel system would be.

[DEFYANT]

I was asking what your plans for the MM project fuel system would be.

Good question. At 425 hp, I think my fuel system is being taxed with the stock pump and a BAP. I am looking for options. A system that can handle 800 hp would never need to be upgraded since my plans will probably never reach 800 hp.

Thanks.

[Petrograde]

Good question. At 425 hp, I think my fuel system is being taxed with the stock pump and a BAP. I am looking for options. A system that can handle 800 hp would never need to be upgraded since my plans will probably never reach 800 hp.

Thanks.

Yeah,.. I'm really curious too. We need some details man! :P

..and some pics of your setup would be cool too! :up:

[SergntMac]

Good question. At 425 hp, I think my fuel system is being taxed with the stock pump and a BAP. I am looking for options. A system that can handle 800 hp would never need to be upgraded since my plans will probably never reach 800 hp. Thanks. Yeah, I'm feeling likewise. I have made some improvements to my fuel system, but I feel like I'm just catching up, rather than curing a system once and for all. Now that we have an 800 BHP engine among us, if we prepare for that potential, we should be okay when we level off at 700/600/500 BHP.

If you don't mind, Charlie, I'd like to open a new thread on fuel systems. A focused discussion would be beneficial for us all.

[Zack]

Mac,

Dynoed the engine today, I'll post the numbers when I get more time. Let's just say my 800 goal was achieved.

Please post the phone number to your business.
Many of us here would love to contract you to build a car for us, based on the info you have provided so far. You must be a real sharp tack to create an 800hp motor in less than a week of its conception.
Id love to talk to you on the phone.
A link to your website as well????

[David Morton]

... Pertaining to the control arms, I was thinking of making a slighty longer lower control arm to help with the anti-squat geometry, but after crunching the numbers I'm afraid that doing so would hurt overall handling and possibly add a little too much oversteer. ... Good decision, and for a better reason than the one you state, which is a good enough reason too.

Putting on longer lower control arms would change the pinion angle. This may change the pinion-end universal joints' "working angle" and if you don't shim up the transmission mount to make that joints' working angle the same as the transmission joints' angle, you may wind up with a nightmarish propshaft vibration. High frequency, loosen the fillings in your teeth, unless you get lucky and go "over the top" and wind up back in close proximity. I wouldn't roll the dice with this mod just for a marginal traction advantage.

An inclinometer is needed to measure these working angles. What you do is measure the angle of the u-joint caps going into and then out of each u-joint. Subtracting the smaller angle from the larger of a joint will give you the working angle, usually 1 to 3 degrees. (They also must be more than 1/2 D or the joint itself will vibrate.) If the working angles of each joint aren't within 1/2 D of each other a vibration will be induced, the greater the difference, the greater the vibration.

[cyclone03]

Good decision, and for a better reason than the one you state, which is a good enough reason too.

Putting on longer lower control arms would change the pinion angle. This may change the pinion-end universal joints' "working angle" and if you don't shim up the transmission mount to make that joints' working angle the same as the transmission joints' angle, you may wind up with a nightmarish propshaft vibration. High frequency, loosen the fillings in your teeth, unless you get lucky and go "over the top" and wind up back in close proximity. I wouldn't roll the dice with this mod just for a marginal traction advantage.

An inclinometer is needed to measure these working angles. What you do is measure the angle of the u-joint caps going into and then out of each u-joint. Subtracting the smaller angle from the larger of a joint will give you the working angle, usually 1 to 3 degrees. (They also must be more than 1/2 D or the joint itself will vibrate.) If the working angles of each joint aren't within 1/2 D of each other a vibration will be induced, the greater the difference, the greater the vibration.


OH NO Here we go again with pinion angle.......

[DEFYANT]

If you don't mind, Charlie, I'd like to open a new thread on fuel systems. A focused discussion would be beneficial for us all.

A most excellent idea :D . This is a topic that needs to be brought to the forefront of the board since most options for us to date are - out of date.

[SergntMac]

OH NO Here we go again with pinion angle... LOL...I agree with your "here we go again", Lance, however, we do not have to go there again. I don't need to turn back the pages, neither does Zack. Unless there is a dissatisfied customer somewhere, it's a closed book. A good thing that benefitted everyone who took part, that continues to benefit them today. Case closed.

Funny how some things mentioned among us tend to refuel "real world" testimony (and later refresh to that standard) every so often, while other likewise important topics cause some to regurgitate what they read, or, learned, somewhere in a theoritical world. "Pinion angle" seems to be one of those "best of both worlds" topics. Y'all need to know what the books say about it, but y'all need to feel what your azz is telling you too.

David is correct to say that just messing with the pinion angle alone, carries an expectation of other problems, a "penalty", if not done right...Complete. His books say that, and frankly, this is true of all mods to any factory design, and true with any sub-system, be it cooling, cold air induction, braking, suspension, and so on.

What could follow a mod installed without any foresight, or, expectation of it's effect on any other system after it's install, is (at best) a WAG, (wild azzed guess). When faced with a WAG, we learn only from digging into it, exploring it, following it's growth, it's endurace, and it's longevity.

David is correct to predict problems, if you mess with the pinion angle alone, on any car in America. But...David doesn't know that the homework was done for the Z&M control arms, his reply doesn't make any mention that he has any knowledge of them at all. David doesn't know that additional issues were addressed, and that the Marauder drive line is out of alignment to begin with. Not knowing the history of the Z&M control arms, how they were made, why they measured to the spec they did, and why they continue to perform years after their production without any complaint, is all stuff David didn't know...Before.

Likewise, BlueThunderPerf makes some assumptions, and I really doubt he's "been here, done this" with Marauder suspension. Blue may have a hint, he's got a nice '97 CV going on for himself, but that '97 CV/PI is a different car than the Marauder, he said so himself. Blue's early remarks about steering, and control problems, confirm that he is, indeed, driving a '97 CV/PI.

With full respect to David Morton, and, BlueThunderPerf...Neither of them are working with "real world" facts. Therefore, their remarks posted here, are honest evaluations of the Marauder as they know it. I got no problem with that, or, anything posted in this thread.

Thanks, Lance, feels good to clear the air.

[cyclone03]

Hey Mac! How you doing?

You got that right,just mention "pinion angle" around here and off we go...

I just wanted to get a little word in before it all went to 'ell.
I would have added a shaking head smilley but none of mine move so I don't know which one it is.:)

No problem with me on this one.

Have a great Christmas!!!

[David Morton]

OH NO! Our driveline is crooked? My car is smooth as glass to 120 mph! IT MUST BE MAGIC!

Gentlemen, and you know who you are, that our driveline is off center has nothing to do with what I said. Those angles naturally cancel each other out. But I dare anyone to nose-up or down the pinion 3 Ds' in the wrong direction and see what happens. However, I also know why more factories are using this type of off-center geometry. It helps to be able to think in 3 dimentions to see this, but it's more forgiving of the very problem I was describing. I'm sure, as SergntMac said, the other control arms were engineered properly, it seems implied they were sold as a set of upper and lower. BlueThunderPerf was talking about his considering only longer lower arms. That's why I said what I did and if you guys hold "book knowledge" in contempt I can only say good luck since that's what you must be running on anyways. This "bookworm" stuff helped me fix numerous customer vibration complaints when I worked for Chevrolet and continues to serve me well today.

Take offense if you will. I'm not taking anything from the guys that have done things by hard-won research, doing it wrong until they get it right. That has nothing to do with what I'm discussing.

I'm trying to talk about the geometry of driveline angles, and why screwing around with the pinion angle alone is hazardous. I don't know or care who did what to whom and why, where or when it happened. I tell something I've learned from books and experience and somebody starts menstruating. Damn! I got divorced for the same reason!

Lighten up. It's a discussion, not a competition. Nobody's gonna fail the exam. We're not gonna run out of paper. OK, how's this?

Cyclone03. You win, I lose. Please forgive me.

Satisfied?

[DEFYANT]

How 'bout this:

Whats the best gear oil to use?

There is a good debate!

[cyclone03]

Lighten up. It's a discussion, not a competition. Nobody's gonna fail the exam. We're not gonna run out of paper. OK, how's this?

Cyclone03. You win, I lose. Please forgive me.

Satisfied?


COOL I WON!!!

But all I said was "Here WE go again".

I just wanted to be first when the pinion angle wars started to heat up,thats it.
I know the science,I also know what works ON THE TRACK.

I'm not trying to refire anything here.

[RF Overlord]

Whats the best gear oil to use?Motorcraft Full Synthetic 75W-140.

:D

[DEFYANT]

Mac,
I modded my CV mounts into soild pieces. And what's up with your fuel system, I've done many of these returnless systems and might be able to help.

---

As far as the CVPI, I had it painted blue. It was white before. I'll take some underhood and interior shot on Monday.

I use the engine dyno at Speed Specialtiies.

Dynoed the engine today, I'll post the numbers when I get more time. Let's just say my 800 goal was achieved.

Well? It's Monday 12/12/05 @ 9:43pm.

Jonathan, did you get the pictures? Or did I miss a new thread by you somewhere?

Update please.

[GreekGod]

Worked with an ex U.S. Airforce gentleman. He said when he was stationed in Alaska (in the 50's?), they had to use ATF instead of 80-90 gear oil. When it's 40 below zero, the rules change.

[Rider90]

Well? It's Monday 12/12/05 @ 9:43pm.

Jonathan, did you get the pictures? Or did I miss a new thread by you somewhere?

Update please.
I wanted to do a DOHC swap in my 96 CVPI (my first car!) but decided that I was far too poor :D Quit leaving us on the edge of our seats!!!!

[David Morton]

Still bustin' on me, huh Cyclone03? I guess you aren't big enough to forgive yet.

[cyclone03]

Still bustin' on me, huh Cyclone03? I guess you aren't big enough to forgive yet.


Are we fighting???
I missed something,somewhere.

David I have NOTHING against you!!!!

[SergntMac]

That's why I said what I did and if you guys hold "book knowledge" in contempt I can only say good luck since that's what you must be running on anyways. This "bookworm" stuff helped me fix numerous customer vibration complaints when I worked for Chevrolet and continues to serve me well today.

Take offense if you will. I'm not taking anything from the guys that have done things by hard-won research, doing it wrong until they get it right. That has nothing to do with what I'm discussing.

I'm trying to talk about the geometry of driveline angles, and why screwing around with the pinion angle alone is hazardous. I don't know or care who did what to whom and why, where or when it happened. No one here has shown any contempt for professional skill. In fact, over the past 3 years, it's been quite the opposite. Professional advice is very welcome, and you too, have brought a lot of high quality 411 to the table. BTW, thank you for that, David.

However, you seem eager to add seasoning to your contribution, and neither of these remarks are funny. I'm not surprised when someone busts on you.

OH NO! Our driveline is crooked? My car is smooth as glass to 120 mph! IT MUST BE MAGIC!
And,

I tell something I've learned from books and experience and somebody starts menstruating. Damn! I got divorced for the same reason! Next time, leave this out, David, and let us salt to taste?

[David Morton]

Funny how some things mentioned among us tend to refuel "real world" testimony (and later refresh to that standard) every so often, while other likewise important topics cause some to regurgitate what they read, or, learned, somewhere in a theoretical world. "Pinion angle" seems to be one of those "best of both worlds" topics. Y'all need to know what the books say about it, but y'all need to feel what your azz is telling you too.I'm sorry I took this to be one of those comments AKA, "You bookworms think you know because the book said it, but we real world guys out here in the trenches know that stuff is for the professors and doesn't work out here." I suppose you can't see it because you wrote it. This next statement also seems to say book knowledge is for those who talk a lot, but isn't worth much in the real world. (BTW, they're not MY books.)


David is correct to say that just messing with the pinion angle alone, carries an expectation of other problems, a "penalty", if not done right...Complete. His books say that, and frankly, this is true of all mods to any factory design, and true with any sub-system, be it cooling, cold air induction, braking, suspension, and so on.But I admit you try to seem even handed, although it seems like there's plenty of "salt" being thrown around in these statements, enough for everybody.


What could follow a mod installed without any foresight, or, expectation of it's effect on any other system after it's install, is (at best) a WAG, (wild azzed guess). When faced with a WAG, we learn only from digging into it, exploring it, following it's growth, it's endurace, and it's longevity.

David is correct to predict problems, if you mess with the pinion angle alone, on any car in America. But...David doesn't know that the homework was done for the Z&M control arms, his reply doesn't make any mention that he has any knowledge of them at all. David doesn't know that additional issues were addressed, and that the Marauder drive line is out of alignment to begin with. Not knowing the history of the Z&M control arms, how they were made, why they measured to the spec they did, and why they continue to perform years after their production without any complaint, is all stuff David didn't know...Before.

Likewise, BlueThunderPerf makes some assumptions, and I really doubt he's "been here, done this" with Marauder suspension. Blue may have a hint, he's got a nice '97 CV going on for himself, but that '97 CV/PI is a different car than the Marauder, he said so himself. Blue's early remarks about steering, and control problems, confirm that he is, indeed, driving a '97 CV/PI.

With full respect to David Morton, and, BlueThunderPerf...Neither of them are working with "real world" facts. Therefore, their remarks posted here, are honest evaluations of the Marauder as they know it. I got no problem with that, or, anything posted in this thread.So you finish up by telling everybody I don't live in a real world when it comes to the Marauder, being a novice and all, living in a "perfect world" fantasy. That no book can substitute for elbow grease, assert I haven't "been there", yada, yada, yada, and then try to tell me you give me full respect.

If somebody else spoke about you like you speak about me, would you think anything other than what I thought? That they think you're an inexperienced whelp straight out of school, full of theories and no practical experience, making you just another talker, with no walk to back you up? "Good boy! I bet you got straight A's on your tests! Now listen to the big dogs, sit down and shut up, cause you don't know what you're talkin' about."

This is how I took yours and Cyclone03s' comments. I reply with quotes because it's possible you don't read what you write. The willingness to examine ones' self for flaws is a tough discipline and I don't presume to try to make you do it. I just hope you might see the wisdom in choosing your comments wisely, and part of that is looking back at your mistakes so that you can learn from them.

Seriously, if someone spoke about you the way you spoke about me, what would be your response?

As I said before, everybody lighten up. We're not gonna run out of paper. I'm not mad, because I don't need other peoples' approval. I just wanted to help somebody with my experience and hope this board doesn't fall the way of "popular" mechanics. Pinion angle isn't a theory, it's a fact! I have no criticism for what Zack and Mac did, or how they did it. That 90% perspiration rule does a lot of work, and works well. The idea I don't want to see others fall for is that since work works fine, study, learning and knowledge is for the birds.

Nothing upsets me more than the men running around with "Proud to be dumb" tatooed on their foreheads. I think they're dangerous.

[SergntMac]

That's 3. To correct the record, you do not have the Zack&Mac control arms on your Marauder, am I correct? Do you know how they were designed and built to function? I do, because I'm the Mac of Zack and Mac. As I said ^ there, no, I don't believe you have the experience with the product that allows you to post an opinion. What you did post about pinion angle is correct, and I agreed with your statement. However, I did not apply that opinion to the Z&M arms, because you don't know the history of development, nor have you experienced the ride. And that's all I said. On the topic, you're an observer, and I have no idea who BlueThunderPerf, but he too, is lacking this same real world knowledge.

I've told others before you, if you extrapoliate secondary meanings or hidden subliminal messages out of the words I post, you're making a very big mistake. Honestly, I mean nothing more than exactly what I post, the rest is your doing. Likewise, I can say the same about the posts from Cyclone03, there's nothing posted here that means you any harm, or, embarassment. My apologies, sir, I ment no offense. But, this is the last time, and with hope that you will read my future contributions with more straightforward vision.

[RCSignals]

David. Easy. This is an internet misunderstanding. You are all on the same page. really.

I found something that fits in here, and I'll quote it:

......everybody lighten up. We're not gonna run out of paper.

[Warpath]

Well, if anyone is still interested in this thread, Aviator pumps flow the most. Swap them in. I believe you have to upgrade some sort of regulator. Sorry I can't explain since I never considered it myself.

[TripleTransAm]

So the 800hp Marauder was pretty much a thing of the imagination, then...

[DEFYANT]

So the 800hp Marauder was pretty much a thing of the imagination, then...

It would seem so. I officially raise the :bs: flag on this guy.

[TripleTransAm]

I officially raise the :bs: flag on this guy.

... and plant it squarely in his chest.

"I claim this land in the name of Bull****tia!"

http://stevepereira.com/misc/smilies/lflage.jpg

(with due respect for the brave men immortalized in the original photograph)

[David Morton]

I won't say it ain't possible. There is an 800 hp capable shortblock available. (There's also a 1600 HP SB too) Maybe he can do it. Maybe he has done it. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So far we've seen some awesome results with stock engines here. Bare bones Marauder engines with blowers and a little nitrous and the guys get into the 11s. But 800 horses is low 10s territory and I for one wanted to be the first but if this guy can do it I say lets not piss him off by saying his story of 800 horses is bull*****. Lets welcome his input, pick his brains, his nose, his friends and see if he'll belly up the info on what he's doing to get there.

If he can't get a video up to show it, some dyno results or a timeslip, maybe we can send a veteran here down there to investigate. Then if he proves out to be full of it...

...we can all call him a butt-pickin' booger eater! :lol:

[GreekGod]

I recommend contacting the Texas Rangers to deputize a Marauder owner to do Mercury Marauder investigations in Tejas. Should be bi-lingual. Limited authority until certified nationally by law enforcement standards to cross state lines. Anyone caught 'telling tails' should be allowed 'three strikes and your out'. Maximum penalty of death by firing squad-third offence (or hanging for multiple offences), life for over age 50 pre-senile dementia. Lesser penality could include cat-o-ninetails (first offense), or one year in Iranian prison (second offence).

[Zack]

I won't say it ain't possible. There is an 800 hp capable shortblock available. (There's also a 1600 HP SB too) Maybe he can do it. Maybe he has done it. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Marty's car made 670? to the tire.
Thats 800hp.
Pretty easy to to with a blower car with a lot of boost and head work.
There are probably more 2 valve motors out there making this kind of power than 4 valve.

[TripleTransAm]

True, but we wanted to see how THIS particular Marauder was put together.

[David Morton]

Marty's car made 670? to the tire.
Thats 800hp.
Pretty easy to to with a blower car with a lot of boost and head work.
There are probably more 2 valve motors out there making this kind of power than 4 valve.Don't really think the head work is all that necessary to get 800 hp out of a modular 4.6 if you using a blower. Blowers kind of make head flow moot, adding 3 more pounds of boost will do more than $1000 worth of blueprinting to the heads. I'm with you on the "more 2V motors" out there, lots of Mustang owners been doing this for longer than we have.

My thing with our engine is that the 32V DOHC design lends itself to higher RPM potential. With a fraction of the valvetrain weight of those pushrod motors, we can get up in the 10,000 RPM neighborhood, if we can keep a decent torque curve so it's streetable, and I think turbocharging is what's gonna get us there. I just gotta remember the "win" note goes by the ET and not by the 60' time on the timeslip.

Yeah, I'm with you TTA. I wanna see how this guy's doing it.

[TripleTransAm]

With a fraction of the valvetrain weight of those pushrod motors, we can get up in the 10,000 RPM neighborhood, if we can keep a decent torque curve so it's streetable, and I think turbocharging is what's gonna get us there.

I don't think our bottom end will take it. See the math I spit out a week or two ago on the subject (re: mean piston speeds).

[David Morton]

Oh I agree completely TTA. Stock, I wouldn't push this bottom-end past 7000. But Sean Hyland has a modular out there supposedly making 1600 HP! That's 5.7 HP per cubic inch and I can't see 4.6 liters making 1000 ft/lbs of torque at 8400 RPM, which is what you'd have to do to get that 1600 figure. But at 10,000 RPM the numbers reverse and move one decimal and makes it 840 ft/lbs torque. That seems more likely than 1000 ft/lbs at any speed.

Anyways, I've seen 10,000 RPM 327s when I worked for Chevrolet back in the 80s. Yes, it's got a 3.25 inch stroke so maybe we need to destroke ours to get there. with a 3.7" bore we could use a 3.25" crank and still get 281 cubes. That's just .150" more bore. Can we do that? I know we'd lose bottom-end torque, but we're talking about the "after 4000 RPM" turbocharged drag racing engine here.

[Joe Walsh]

Hmmmmmmmm:hmmm:......

It seems our 800 HP guy is VERY quiet now.

If I was being called out for :bs: , but really had the goods, I'd be VERY LOUD in defending myself.

Maybe he's busy on the Dyno tweeking her up to 845 HP....

[Rider90]

http://www.shotimes.com/php-bin/user.php?op=userinfo&uname=bluethunderperf

[Warpath]

A 2V can make as much power as a 4V. 800 hp on a 4V is nothing new. Its still rare. But, its not ground breaking. I've seen a handful of 1000+ hp 4V Mustang videos/graphs already. So, give the guy a break.

[David Morton]

...give the guy a break.I heard that!

[LightningVic]

I think this should have raised the B.S. flag almost immediately, considering that in his mod lists for his crown vic, he lists the 03 and up rack and pinion upgrade, which is physically impossible to add to the older chassis. oops. P.S. 3 months from graduation with a job waiting for me guys. Im already shopping for my real marauder at long last. Marty wont know what hit him :D