Why Front-Wheel Drive Sucks

[Mark McQuaide]

Great article here by Mickey Kaus on Slate Magazine:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2081194/

[Long Live #3]

I've got a FWD car. That article was just pathetic.

[Mark McQuaide]

I've driven FWD for most of 25 years until I got the Marauder - the article seemed right on to me.

[Macon Marauder]

I've owned 3 FWD cars and 3 FWD mini-vans. That article put into words the feelings I've had about FWD for years.

FWD = fine for people hauling.
RWD = for performance and enthusiasts.

[RF Overlord]

^^^what Macon said^^^

How many NASCAR cars are FWD?
How many Indy cars are FWD?
How many Ferraris or Lamborghinis are FWD?
Mercedes AMGs? BMW M3s?

As the esteemed gentleman from the Heart of GA said, FWD is fine for soccer-mom mini-vans and small economical people-haulers, but not for anything serious...

How about a FWD motorcycle...?

:lol:

[CRUZTAKER]

It all occurred to me a number of years back...I have NEVER owned a fwd automobile and likely never will. The rental I am currently driving ('04 Pontiac Bonny) is crazy on the road, particularly while turning, and requires ALOT of attention when goofing off. I use that term lightly as this auto is a dog and desperately seeks power to get away from itself. To each his own though, it's all good.

The writer WAS right on :)

[WolfeBros]

Originally posted by Long Live #3
I've got a FWD car. That article was just pathetic.

Young grasshopper........the article speaks the truth. Your a big Nascar guy right ?? Ever wonder why no one races FWD cars? You can steer with the throttle in a RWD car when the ass end starts to come around. Try that in a FWD car when the front end breaks loose. DOHHHHH !! Its call the wrecker time because you just make the situation worse. Now.....re-read the article and come snatch the pebble from my hand young one.:D

[jgc61sr2002]

Originally posted by Long Live #3
I've got a FWD car. That article was just pathetic. RF you are correct , LongLive #3 You just received your license last week so you really don't have any experience to talk about. John

[Long Live #3]

Originally posted by WolfeBros
Young grasshopper........the article speaks the truth. Your a big Nascar guy right ?? Ever wonder why no one races FWD cars? You can steer with the throttle in a RWD car when the ass end starts to come around. Try that in a FWD car when the front end breaks loose. DOHHHHH !! Its call the wrecker time because you just make the situation worse. Now.....re-read the article and come snatch the pebble from my hand young one.:D

Good point, but I drive a FWD car and I can't see why someone would say it sucks. Hell, it can do a nice burnout once in a while. :D

[RCSignals]

FWD was great in a MINI. Then people went all over board with it.
Not a good idea in a big car at all

[RF Overlord]

I forgot some:

When was the last time you saw a FWD IROC Z? or a Trans-Am? (now patiently waiting for 3TA to chip in....dum-de-dum....hmmm)

It would have been easy for the General to convert those cars, but they chose to kill them off, instead...because they would never have survived the transformation.

FWD doesn't actually suck, it just isn't the "end-all, be-all" that the car marketers would have everyone believe. It IS easier and cheaper for them to build, and simple to integrate across a lot of platforms, by having a common "drivetrain module". So it's the money...

Notice that the "new" GTO is going to be a RWD V8...

Australian high-performance cars are, and always have been, RWD...they drive a LOT of miles down under, and the RWD platform is just plain superior in most cases...jefferson-mo, help me out, here...

[looking97233]

From a performance standpoint, you are just asking too much of a front wheel drive car. You have to steer AND provide power. Also who ever had a FWD in a drift? That's the best part. The MM is so wonderfully ballanced, she has wonderful manners and lets you know exactly how much you have left in the corners. Try that from a FWD. The MM is not a small sports car, but she is the best behaved big car on the road. My .02

[CRUZTAKER]

Audi and Suburu got the point...

[darebren]

I got the marauder when my lease was up on a 2002 Volvo S60 T5, that car was fast, but it was not long before I hated front wheel drive and the torque steer, and not being able to put big fat tires on the rear like a fast car should have.

[Long Live #3]

Hey guys, don't forget. Cadillac does have the only cars with V8 FWD. :D

[MassMarauder]

And they are a bit better in the snow....which makes them more desirable to the "less experienced" driver.....and woman.

[TAF]

Originally posted by MassMarauder
And they are a bit better in the snow....which makes them more desirable to the "less experienced" driver.....and woman.

I'm not touchin that one...there's womenfolk lurking around here...

[CRUZTAKER]

Originally posted by Long Live #3
Hey guys, don't forget. Cadillac does have the only cars with V8 FWD. :D



........and spiffy comercials played more frequently that I grab for a beer......

[ITZAMERC]

Pretty much true, except I'd have to say Ford's FWD is better, more like mediocre sex. :D Everybody knows All real cars are RWD and have steering at both ends.

[Patrick]

Why I prefer RWD drive. FWD to me feels like the car is trying to drive for you. I feel like I have to keep fighting the car to go where I want. I like the article and not touching the part about women!!!!!!!!

Heres what I owned:

1. 86 Chevy spectrum ( sorry just out Basic Training, no money had to buy chevy)!!!!!

2. 89 Mercury Topaz

3. 91 Cougar LS

4. 95 T-bird (BLACK)

5. 94 Mark VIII (lease return) Deep jewel green with Tan interior. ( Istill miss her!!!!!!!)

6. 98 Mark VIII LSC loaded!!!!!!!!!! (Silver)

7. 03 MM ( ONLY COLOR IS BLACK!!!!!!!!!) Stock for now!! But will do sum tweaking when the money comes available!!!!!

It will be a :( . day when I cant find a RWD drive car!!!!!!!

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by RF Overlord

FWD doesn't actually suck, it just isn't the "end-all, be-all" that the car marketers would have everyone believe.


Up here, the big selling point with FWD was the supposed improved handling in snow. Reality is that, like RWD cars, it's all about the overall balance of the car.

My uncle's '85 Lebaron GTS sucked in the snow. My RWD '85 Parisienne was a total winner in the snow. My '87 GTA was a total disaster on snow on the two occasions in 1993 when I was stuck in a bad blizzard. My '84 Civic 4-door would pass every single FWD Cherokee I'd come across, during our bad blizzards. My point is that the 'improved winter traction' of FWD is a generalization... it all depends on the overall package. (Oh, I gotta add that the '84 Civic in question was on 1 bald front tire during several winters... I was young, stupid, and still paying off the GTA!).

As for performance driving, you don't have to convince an engineer about how the sum of force vectors on the front tires (steering AND traction) just don't go well together. But I still maintain that a lot of the frustration in that linked article comes about because the driver doesn't know how to handle FWD.

You CANNOT jump into a FWD and compare it to a RWD by driving it the same way. During a bad snowstorm, I was badly cut off by a lunatic rush-hour maniac while driving my '98 Civic, and it happened at the worst moment: taking a curve on a snowed-out on-ramp to a bridge. I slammed on the brakes to avoid an impact, the ABS tried its best to keep me in control but I was plowing straight ahead into a cement divider in a fork in the road ahead. I kept a cool head, grabbed the handbrake and started modulating the rear braking, combined with some careful throttle manipulation. I recovered the car, and while I had no choice but to end up guiding it through the exit portion of the fork (not where I was intending to go initially), it was a clean turn and I made it through with my family safe and sound. Getting cut off in that turn like I did, I doubt RWD would have helped me... especially these cars without handbrakes!

I will miss the well balanced '98 Civic once I get rid of it. Once I get good winter rims and tires for the MM, I'll have no choice but to spend some quality hours in a snowed-in parking lot one Sunday, re-learning how to handle RWD in heavy snow... it's been 10 years, after all.

My point: it's not the hardware, it's how you use it.

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by Long Live #3
Hey guys, don't forget. Cadillac does have the only cars with V8 FWD. :D

no one said Cadillac was smart

[Long Live #3]

Then I'll say it. Cadillac is smart.

[WolfeBros]

Someone completely missed the point of the article. :rolleyes:

[SergntMac]

I have owned about 25 automobiles in my life, all of them have been V8 and RWD. When that wasn't available anymore in a body style I fancied, I went the SUV route, and just because the Mountaineer was the first FMC product that offered V8 and AWD. I really didn't need the other features of the SUV, but I learned to appreciate them over time.

Here in America, we are expected to be...ahh...Tolerant of...Ummm..."alternatives," yes? Being tolerant of FWD seems the PC thing to do.

I must have been 13-14 years old when I saw my first FWD car. My father took me to the Chicago Auto show, and we came to look over a real mess, a Citroten, I think. It was "different" too, 4 speed on the column, sectional body panels, and uglier than hell. I spoke out loud spontaneously with "this is queer!" My father half frowned, half chuckled, and added "well, it's from France, and things are different in France" and we moved on to other imports. Our first discussion on being polite in public (early PC?) occupied the ride home.

Now...someone explain to me what the writer means by "bad sex." WTF is that all about?

[JohnE]

FWD is more fuel efficient, lighter and cheaper to produce. Not a driver’s car though...

Our other car is a Volvo S80T6. This car has some serious torque on demand, from any speed. But it is no fun to launch from a dead stop. Serious lack of traction and no limited slip. They are coming out with an AWD, but it still biases the front.

There is no fun like laying on the power in a quick turn, to bring the rear around. On wet days, the TC kicks in just at the right time on my GM. One day I plan to be able to do this on dry roads :-)

[CRUZTAKER]

AWD is another story now. Grandpa's Audi S4 is phenomimal. Even with the 6-speed manual, it's hard to break traction on a clutch pop. Truley inspiring...and how about a 300hp WRX...oh my!

I know, apples and oranges...but some us leave the dark side on holidays and long weekends!:)

[lyonsd]

I had a wrong wheel drive car once - a '94 Ford Escort. But I'd rather not have another wrong wheel drive car.

For my next car I'd like either a Marauder, Cobra, GTO, or G35.


Originally posted by CRUZTAKER
some us leave the dark side on holidays and long weekends!:)

You have a Grand National?

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by lyonsd
I had a wrong wheel drive car once -

"Wrong-wheel drive"...I like it.... :lol:

[CRUZTAKER]

LYONSD:

....think ....international

[Fourth Horseman]

That acticle wasn't anything that most of us here didn't already know, but it was an entertaining read. I'm not sure I really like the way the author tried to sell his position to the reader, though. In my mind the basic facts speak for themselves.

In my opinion front drive vehicles are the norm today for one reason: they're cheaper and easier to build. Period.

That the auto industry has managed to sell the public on a lot of smoke and mirrors is just another indication of the lack of sophistication of the average driver - and another reason why I enjoy hanging out here with all of you so much. ;)

[SergntMac]

Yeah but...Is there such a thing as "bad sex?"

[martyo]

Sex is like pizza. When it's good, it's great and when it's bad, it's still pretty good!

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by martyo
Sex is like pizza. When it's good, it's great and when it's bad, it's still pretty good!

Yup...Still good the next morning. May be a bit cool, maybe dry at the corners, but still good, eh? That's what I thought too, Marty, thanks. Thought I was missing something here.

[CRUZTAKER]

Pizza! It's not just for breakfast anymore....just don't get it delivered!

[WolfeBros]

I have been married too long.
At least I can remember the last time I had pizza !! :lol: :lol:

[CRUZTAKER]

I went to the pizza store (pandoras on Henry Hines) sunday nite.
Oh, my.....just say no to crack, especially when it looks like that!

[cyclone03]

Truth about FWD is packaging.
The manufactors like it because all of the drive train can be installed in one place at one time.Neat.Quick.Cheap.
Thats why Chrysler went FWD only back in the 80's,to save thier !@@ Money wise.Build one type of platform cheaply and people that buy cars,or see cars as,appliences will spap em' up.
Those of us that ENJOY cars know the truth.

[CRUZTAKER]

Originally posted by cyclone03
Truth about FWD is packaging.
The manufactors like it because all of the drive train can be installed in one place at one time.

And better yet, get involved in a minor front end accident, say a VERY large pot hole, curb abuttment, or large road debris......

And the the WHOLE drive train get's repaired as well. cooool.

[merc406]

Had a 79 Eldo, iron V8, loved having smoke coming from the front tires, but ate up CV joints every 7,000 miles.

[DLoreanMARAUDER]

yup both have certin advantages and disadvantages. too easy to burn rubber in FWD (like flooring in reverse in RWD) but are MUCH BETTER IN SNOW! i used to have a 90 eldorado and i loved every minute of it (even though i'm more a RWD guy). but you can have a lot more fun in RWD (ie. DOGNUTS) but in snow forget about it. RWD does NOT like snow/ice/rain But IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THE DRIVER! i drove 50 miles in 6 feet of snow and ice in the MM and every time i taped the gas my a$$ went its own way. just lucky to have made it home in one peice (I call it skill:)). my bro in his FWD Deville was not so luck as he was towed home, but hes only 16 and hes still learning (he turned but kept going strait pulling out of school....didnt even make it outta the parking lot) so the moral is...... well there is no moral. cant we all just get along and live in a world with no racism against FWD or RWD or even AWD or 4WD! there are differnt cars for different people now get out there and choose, JUST DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by DLoreanMARAUDER
cant we all just get along and live in a world with no racism against FWD or RWD or even AWD or 4WD! there are differnt cars for different people now get out there and choose, JUST DO YOUR HOMEWORK!


I agree, and that's essentially what I was trying to say in my own post. You can't drive a FWD like a RWD and vice-versa. And there are lots of forms of racing where FWD is preferred.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by DLoreanMARAUDER
cant we all just get along and live in a world with no racism against FWD or RWD or even AWD or 4WD!

NO...

[mtnh]

For those in need of some nice doughnuts in FWD cars, you have to do them in REVERSE! And they are EPLOSIVE when done right! They are also great for doing 180s in a pinch in snow or on loose surfaces. Back it up straight, get it going, then cut the wheel (while goosing the throttle) and the car just comes around for you.

As for driving FWD in the snow, I had 4 studded snows on my old Peugeot 405 Mi16, and could not get that thing to turn on slippery roads: it just wanted to go straight, even at granny speeds. I once was rounding a curve, equipped with a smooth guardrail, doing about 25 mph in 2" of slush as snow was falling, and the car decided to not make that bend (it was about a 90* angle, short radius) ... As I was about to hit the rail, at the last second, I pushed down on the clutch, because remember now, you can't brake in this situation very much, and as the driving force left the front wheels, the car just barely made it around that turn, missing the guardrail by inches. I saw similar actions over the 7 years and 160K miles that I drove that car. FWD is also a pain because it just eats tires off the front end with the turning and traction duties involved. I rented a 2000 Impala in Orlando with 16K miles on it, and that car's road noise from tire wear was unbelievable, completely blocking out a loud radio at anything over 50 mph.

I thought that the article was pretty accurate, but they could have left out the analogy to reproductive behaviour.

Mike

[ITZAMERC]

Originally posted by WolfeBros
Someone completely missed the point of the article. :rolleyes:

You mean me? Nope, I got his point years ago. I was just making fun of his opening line. :rolleyes:

[yamahaSHO]

Although RWD would be best for performance applications, I still love my FWD SHO. My car won't slide when I power it through turns like typical FWDs. Instead of a "peg leg" open differential, I now have a Quaife Torque Biasing Differential in my car. It transfers up to 81% of the power to the wheel with the most traction. I can now throttle steer my car.:D

[RF Overlord]

Yo, yamaha:

I was considering the SHO and the Thunderbird SC back in '94...liked the SHO a lot, but the T-bird was $3500 less...

You say you can now "throttle-steer" your car...isn't that what the manufacturers are trying to eliminate? Isn't adding MORE torque steer kinda going backward?

[yamahaSHO]

RF Overlord,

What I mean by throttle steer is that when I take a hard turn and apply gas, the out side wheel receives almost all the power. This gives me power to the wheel that has grip allowing me to have the power transferred to the ground and pull me through a turn at a higher speed. An open diff. will apply all the power to the inside wheel that has no traction and just smoke the tire. With the open diff, if you take a hard corner your front end will slide.

The Quaife almost eliminates torque steer. It transfers the power between wheels with out you even knowing, besides the fact you have much better traction. The Quaife totally changes the handling characteristics of the car. The only way I can spin my wheels is if I have both of them spinning. If you want to know more about how the Quaife works, you can read more at www.quaifeamerica.com Also, Quaife used the same diff for the SHO as they do for their Porsche 911 application.

SHOshop had to deal directly with Quaife to get an application for the SHO. The car had more power than it could get to the ground and a weak differential pin. Many SHOs that have been dirven hard or have done lots of burn outs experienced the weaking diff pin. When they go, which does happen, they take the whole tranny. The Quaife also eliminated this problem for us.

Yes, both the SC and SHO are very sweet cars. Back then SHOs did go for a nice chunk of change. I still have the window sticker for my car, the total price back in 95 was over $28. My car now sits at 65k miles and only holds a resale of $7-8.5k I still love the car!!

EDIT: I noticed you named your MM "SR-71", we have an SHO in our forum that is named the "SR-71" as well. He runs 12's, which is hard to do, due to the fact we have no traction off the line. Even our 500+hp SHO's have a hard time hitting that.

[yamahaSHO]

Originally posted by Long Live #3
Hey guys, don't forget. Cadillac does have the only cars with V8 FWD. :D

Actually, Lincoln has a FWD V8

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by yamahaSHO
Actually, Lincoln has a FWD V8


Didn't they ditch the Continental for 2003?

[yamahaSHO]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
Didn't they ditch the Continental for 2003?

dunno

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by yamahaSHO
dunno

If so, then that means Lincoln no longer has a FWD car.

[TripleTransAm]

Just checked Lincoln.com.... no more Continental = no more FWD for Lincoln.

[yamahaSHO]

They may not make it anymore, but it is still a FWD V8 made by lincoln, which would contradict this post...


Originally posted by Long Live #3
Hey guys, don't forget. Cadillac does have the only cars with V8 FWD.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by yamahaSHO
They may not make it anymore, but it is still a FWD V8 made by lincoln, which would contradict this post...


Well then you might as well add the ancient Oldsmobile Toronado (from 1966 in fact), some 70s Cadillacs, the 90s Taurus SHO V8, etc.

[yamahaSHO]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
Well then you might as well add the ancient Oldsmobile Toronado (from 1966 in fact), some 70s Cadillacs, the 90s Taurus SHO V8, etc.

Yeah, I know... I was just trying to prove a point. I only needed to name one. I am a fellow SHO owner too, so I know about the 1996-1999 3.4 liter V8 SHO.:D

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by yamahaSHO
Yeah, I know... I was just trying to prove a point. I only needed to name one. I am a fellow SHO owner too, so I know about the 1996-1999 3.4 liter V8 SHO.:D


I was surprised to see the V8 SHO missing from the ford.com site... I guess I lost track of it a few years back when life got complicated (married, kid, too many cars, etc.). Do you own the V6 or V8 SHO? A co-worker got a used V6 SHO about 6 years back, beat the heck out of it, and has had a blast with it overall.

Edit: stupid question about the V6 or V8... I just spotted the picture at the top of this page.

[TAF]

Because it goes backwards on the Dyno :lol:

[Bigdogjim]

Hey what is with the 1%?? Though we were 2%???
Big Dog

[looking97233]

I dunno about floorpan but the contentinal shared the transaxle and suppension with the taurus. When I had my 98' Taurus, I was looking at how hard it would be to have 4.6L powered taurus. The answer was, way too hard $$$.

[RoyLPita]

What about the labor costs to repair a front wheel drive car? I'm with Ford Service and it costs much more $$$ to fix one. Certain parts like motor mounts, axle shafts, CV joints, & boots, hub & bearings don't last as long. Transmissions are big bucks too. I was asked once to change a clutch on an old Toyota Tercel. First thing in the book, take the engine and tranny out (I passed on that one). If you have to replace a water pump on some FWD cars, you must remove the upper engine mount to get to it. What a pain in the ass that is!!! Even an alternator can be a ***** to get to on a v6 Contour, Mystique, & Cougar! I also heard that you have to drop the back of the engine cradle to change the rear spark plugs on the old GM FWD cars (Celebrity, Citation, Phoenix, etc). Unless you own some RWD car that has a fully independent rear, When would you need a 4 wheel alignment?

Just my .02 from the repair side of things.

[yamahaSHO]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
I was surprised to see the V8 SHO missing from the ford.com site... I guess I lost track of it a few years back when life got complicated (married, kid, too many cars, etc.). Do you own the V6 or V8 SHO? A co-worker got a used V6 SHO about 6 years back, beat the heck out of it, and has had a blast with it overall.

Edit: stupid question about the V6 or V8... I just spotted the picture at the top of this page.

I have the V6, which are faster than the V8's. I have the last year of the V6 and MTX(1995). It is a fun car, but I don't beat the hell out of it. I baby mine. I had a friend who beat the hell out of his, it was fun. If you want to see pictures and modifications to my car, click here (http://members.cardomain.com/yamahasho).

It is a shame they stopped the SHO production, but after the oval styling and ATX only, people did not want it.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by RoyLPita
I also heard that you have to drop the back of the engine cradle to change the rear spark plugs on the old GM FWD cars (Celebrity, Citation, Phoenix, etc).


Yes, that may be true but most people simply tilted the engine. To be honest I never heard of removing the engine cradle, most folks I know simply removed the top engine mount/strut and some other stuff, and tilted the engine somewhat. But nothing like a RWD...

... well, SOME RWD, anyway. The F-body LT1 spark plug change is listed as a 4 hour job, but every tech knows this isn't realistic. The LS1 is a *little* better (there's only one I can't reach without blood loss of some sort), my GTA is pretty complicated and requires accessing some from top and some from the bottom, but my '78 is an absolute dream in this respect! :D

[RF Overlord]

My previous car twice removed was an '85 Citation X-11...2.8L V6...the rear plugs required some contortions to get at, but weren't TOO bad...my '94 T-bird SC required a lift, 2 people with LOTS of manual dexterity, and $100 worth of universals and extensions to do the plugs...Oy Vey...the MM is a breeze!

[yamahaSHO]

For my SHO, I have to completely disassemble the intake just to change the rear plugs. But at every 60k miles, I have to adjust the valve lash at the same time, just like a Yamaha motorcycle;)

http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_a/225000-225999/225912_23.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_a/225000-225999/225912_34.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_a/225000-225999/225912_33.jpg

[looking97233]

Ditto, for the Duratech in the Taurus. Have to remove upper intake to change plugs.

[jgc61sr2002]

The rear spark plugs on many transverse are very difficult to remove. John