Black Monday/Ford

[bigslim]

As many workers at Ford wait until tommorrow to see what will happen I just want to take the time to say that I hope and pray for the best to all my U.A.W. brothers and sisters. My plant will not be affected by the news tommorrow but I know the news will forever change the lives of so many. Please keep these people in mind as I will.

[03MERCMARAUDER]

yeah I had read bout the plant closures and the layoffs.Its really sad when you think tat 30K or so people will loose there jobs. Where do you work bigslim?

Joe

[bigslim]

yeah I had read bout the plant closures and the layoffs.Its really sad when you think tat 30K or so people will loose there jobs. Where do you work bigslim?

Joe
I am at the World famous Rouge Plant. We have a brand new state-of-the-art plant there now that makes the F-150. It is a flexible plant so it can build quite a few different vehicles.

[DEFYANT]

Slim, I am glad you are safe from the axe. But man, 30K people at once! That is rough.

I wonder what modles are being discontinued. Probably the gas guzzlers.

[HwyCruiser]

This is all over the news in Kansas City too. Its a good thing the Escape and F-150 sales are doing good, but it ain't over until it's over.

I work for a company with a big division that supplies Ford and other auto manufactures, so there's a lot of people looking to what happens with the Ford turnaround.

[rayjay]

News after the playoffs said SUV plants. Of course they are putting some of the blame on the Union... damn Union workers wanting a living wage. I'll be quiet and not stand on my union soapbox. :argue:

[MikesMerc]

there's a lot of people looking to what happens with the Ford turnaround.

I am one of them too. Our company is tied to Ford in a big way.

[03MERCMARAUDER]

I know ford is going to be doing away with there mini vans. There was talk about the atlanta plant closing and I beleive they make the tauruas and sable there. Glad your not under the axe bigslim. Nex time I am up there I need to take a tour of the rouge plant. I know they sell tickets for it at the greenfield village.

Joe

[bigslim]

Slim, I am glad you are safe from the axe. But man, 30K people at once! That is rough.

I wonder what modles are being discontinued. Probably the gas guzzlers.
We all know the Taurus/Sable was killed and this is the reason for the Atlanta plant up for closure. The Kansas City plant makes the Explorer which has seen sales slow down with higher gas prices. The Explorer will continue at another plant that is currently building it also. Wixom (Michigan) is still one of the plants being strongly considered. This plant makes the Ford GT, Lincoln LS and Town Car. The LS is in it's final year of production and the Town Car is slated to be built on the Volvo/ 500 Hundred platform. St Thomas Ontario is another plant being considered. This could force the end of production for the CV/GM. There will be a number of parts plants that will be closed. And yes, it was said that the minivans will be discontinued and the Ford Fairlane (Crossover) will be built.

[bigslim]

I know ford is going to be doing away with there mini vans. There was talk about the atlanta plant closing and I beleive they make the tauruas and sable there. Glad your not under the axe bigslim. Nex time I am up there I need to take a tour of the rouge plant. I know they sell tickets for it at the greenfield village.

Joe
The tour is nice but it still doesn't show enough of the plant floor. This is my opinion. It does show a lot of history of Ford and the history of making this enviroment-friendly plant.

[Bluerauder]

The tour is nice but it still doesn't show enough of the plant floor. This is my opinion. It does show a lot of history of Ford and the history of making this enviroment-friendly plant.
Many of the folks that attended MV III took the Rouge Plant tour. My son and I really enjoyed it. In fact, we lagged quite a ways behind the rest of the MM group just observing several of the processes. I agree that there were parts of the operation that were not included in the tour; but I still thought it was well worth the time spent. :D

Unfortunately, our "extra time" at the plant ate into our browsing time at the Henry Ford Museum and I felt a little rushed and probably didn't see half of the displays. :rolleyes:

Good luck and best wishes, Slim and to all the rest of the Ford family during this difficult time. I am doing my best to support Ford ... BTW, the wife's new '06 Freestyle is fantastic.

[03MERCMARAUDER]

The tour is nice but it still doesn't show enough of the plant floor. This is my opinion. It does show a lot of history of Ford and the history of making this enviroment-friendly plant.
It may not include a few things but I still think it would be a blast. I am doing my best to support Ford, have a 2006 Mustang on order now:D .

Joe

[Dragcity]

My Father helped open the plantherein Buffalo in 1950. Sad to see this happening to Ford as well as so many ohter companies recently. This will be devastating in Buffalo. There is NOPLACE to go here.

What happened to out beloved country?

Do we all have to move to India to find work????

[rayjay]

My Father helped open the plantherein Buffalo in 1950. Sad to see this happening to Ford as well as so many ohter companies recently. This will be devastating in Buffalo. There is NOPLACE to go here.

What happened to out beloved country?

Do we all have to move to India to find work????

No, China....

[hitchhiker]

We all know the Taurus/Sable was killed and this is the reason for the Atlanta plant up for closure. The Kansas City plant makes the Explorer which has seen sales slow down with higher gas prices. The Explorer will continue at another plant that is currently building it also. Wixom (Michigan) is still one of the plants being strongly considered. This plant makes the Ford GT, Lincoln LS and Town Car. The LS is in it's final year of production and the Town Car is slated to be built on the Volvo/ 500 Hundred platform. St Thomas Ontario is another plant being considered. This could force the end of production for the CV/GM. There will be a number of parts plants that will be closed. And yes, it was said that the minivans will be discontinued and the Ford Fairlane (Crossover) will be built.

OMG - what is this company doing to itself?

I'll bet that the management still get's their bonuses and golden parachute pension packages!

:mad2:

[rayjay]

I just heard on the radio multiple plant closings, multiple states and Canada, 25k-30k layoffs, but the shareholders bottom line will be better, screw the worker bees. :mad:

[SteveS]

In case anyone hasn't seen these.....

media page
(http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id =22382)

Here is the address for the webcast....
webcast (http://www.ford.com/en/company/skin_global_webcast.htm)

[dwasson]

I just heard on the radio multiple plant closings, multiple states and Canada, 25k-30k layoffs, but the shareholders bottom line will be better, screw the worker bees. :mad:

If the shareholder's bottom line doesn't get better that is when the worker bees get screwed. The purpose of a corporation is to make money for shareholders.

[dwasson]

OMG - what is this company doing to itself?

I'll bet that the management still get's their bonuses and golden parachute pension packages!

:mad2:


You missed the big management blood-letting a few months ago. I live just a couple miles from Ford World HQ. It wasn't safe walking under the HQ windows for a few weeks there.

[Dragcity]

The 'Shareholder' approach has been working sooo well for the past 8 years. America is puting itself out of business. We, as a country have given away our Gross National and Gross Domestic Product. We still consume, but we are producing less of what we consume and bring to the world market.

I truely believe our time has passed as a great nation. We are so deep now, I fear we will never get out of the hole we've dug.

I think that companies need to take PROPER care of business, and the stock prices will follow. Too many financial analysts are in the boardroom and forgot how the bread gets buttered.

Think about this.... With fewer US/Canadian workers, there are fewer individuals with a VESTED INTEREST who hold shares in the Company the are supposed to believe in and work to improve.

We know from experience, that a great company is not made in the boardroom or on Wallstreet. It is great because of the WORKFORCE that drives the machine!

We have continually depleated the GREAT workforce this country once had, as such have degraded the vested interest of our countrymen and women.

"Cut The Help" can only go so far, and I belive we have far surpassed the point of no return. Not only have we given away our world market edge, we are in the final stages of breaking the will, pride and suppport of the American workforce.

Oh my, I guess I had something to say!!!

I'll be done now...

[hitchhiker]

The 'Shareholder' approach has been working sooo well for the past 8 years. America is puting itself out of business. We, as a country have given away our Gross National and Gross Domestic Product. We still consume, but we are producing less of what we consume and bring to the world market.

I truely believe our time has passed as a great nation. We are so deep now, I fear we will never get out of the hole we've dug.

I think that companies need to take PROPER care of business, and the stock prices will follow. Too many financial analysts are in the boardroom and forgot how the bread gets buttered.

Think about this.... With fewer US/Canadian workers, there are fewer individuals with a VESTED INTEREST who hold shares in the Company the are supposed to believe in and work to improve.

We know from experience, that a great company is not made in the boardroom or on Wallstreet. It is great because of the WORKFORCE that drives the machine!

We have continually depleated the GREAT workforce this country once had, as such have degraded the vested interest of our countrymen and women.

"Cut The Help" can only go so far, and I belive we have far surpassed the point of no return. Not only have we given away our world market edge, we are in the final stages of breaking the will, pride and suppport of the American workforce.

Oh my, I guess I had something to say!!!

Regards,

Dav

I'll be done now...

I will be brief since this is not a political site.

The only thing I dispute about your statement is the 'WE' part. Our country is currently a republic in name only. Those with enough money rarely get convicted of anything since they can afford to game the system. Money from Lobbiests and Corporate interests have almost completely corrupted every facet of our government. Unless we can take it back we're doomed to be thown away like a used Kleenex by the Rich Corporate few when they finder a cheaper slave. (worker) 75-80 percent of the 'Shareholders' on K street are wealthy family investor class interests. Corporate CEO's actually are getting bigger pensions for taking away ours! Only lawmakers and a government that support working Americans and our long-term survival interests can turn this thing around.

I suggest that you get involved and utilize sites that ARE for political discussion.

This is NOT one of them and people here will only be alienated by such discussions.

Ford is not going to stop building cars, they just will no longer be built in North America by workers who earn enough to experience a little pleasure in life.

I wish you the very best and hope you survive the layoffs.

Regards,

David

:D

[STLR FN]

The one thing they didn't say in the reports are: the plant closings won't take place til at least the end on 2007 when our current union contract expires(moratorium clause on plant closings, yes they can idle but not close) and two it's the workers with less than ten years that are going to be affected the most. Our contract protects higher seniority employees.

I have one year to go til my 10 years. So I hope I have a job in 18mos. :depress:

[Dragcity]

I am usually on point with my post. Just got carried away. All, please accept my appologies. Won't happen again.

[RVT04]

first , this is the lounge , by definition all off topic conversations go here, a good place to vent, no bashing.
second, we went thru the same thing after the war and we found something else to do besides defense, true enough it was the automobile, we will find something else, maybe a second run at defense. Linda lost her job to market shift ie the internet after 26 yrs with a 80 year old fortune 500 co. you all know the story and the drill, back to college get a degree and do something else with the rest of your life. as for me i couldn't agree more that the manufacturing in this country has packed up and left, and i have made a fair living as a fabricator in a non-union environment for 30+ years, mostly big business seeking the cheaper way out coupled with a lot of gov't. regulation and trade voodoo, but whatever the reason, i do not see the country doomed to a blazing re-entry like the shuttle, i see us as a collective whole getting leaner and meaner in the new world order, we still the big fish in a little pond. So go get drunk for a week or two and then get up off the floor and put on a new face and go kick some ass!

[Dragcity]

So go get drunk for a week or two and then get up off the floor and put on a new face and go kick some ass

Agreed, but how is this different from any other day for me? Kidding.

I am not in manufacturing, but am well degreed in both University and the school of hard knocks. I just so hate to see the cutbacks continue. It makes it so hard on everyone. Dissapoints me more than anything else I guess.

[hitchhiker]

I am usually on point with my post. Just got carried away. All, please accept my appologies. Won't happen again.

Don't feel scolded by me!

I certainly don't have the credentials to tell someone not to post Political threads.
:lol:
I was just trying to warn you based on my own experience here.

A lot of the folks here don't like them unless of course they are
IN complete agreement with the sentiments expressed.

I got kicked off of two other sites devoted to the panther platform cars, but that was actually a good thing since I, not being a member of the wannabe rusted out CVPI (or pretend CVPI) militia, am not a very good fit there anyway. The information on this site, and our vendors are far superior and you have the added bonus of not having to wade through piles of BS just to get to it.
:lol:

Welcome to the MM site and enjoy.

It's the best car site out there!

Regards,

David

:D

[SergntMac]

My plant will not be affected by the news tommorrow but I know the news will forever change the lives of so many. Please keep these people in mind as I will. Done.

Though no one would call us friends without ducking a punch from one of us, I am pleased to know that this massive cut will not affect you personally. May I presume Hack is okay too?

Our contract protects higher seniority employees. I have one year to go til my 10 years. So I hope I have a job in 18mos. Having recently met you and your lovely family, D.J., I am again pleased that you too will be okay, for the short term.

Unions...I thought their purpose was to put themselves out of business?

[rayjay]

The more I see what is happening to this great country of ours on a global basis, the more I think of one, outdated, politcally incorrect, self serving word: ISOLATIONISM. Have fun :flamer:

[dwasson]

first , this is the lounge , by definition all off topic conversations go here, a good place to vent, no bashing.
second, we went thru the same thing after the war and we found something else to do besides defense, true enough it was the automobile, we will find something else, maybe a second run at defense. Linda lost her job to market shift ie the internet after 26 yrs with a 80 year old fortune 500 co. you all know the story and the drill, back to college get a degree and do something else with the rest of your life. as for me i couldn't agree more that the manufacturing in this country has packed up and left, and i have made a fair living as a fabricator in a non-union environment for 30+ years, mostly big business seeking the cheaper way out coupled with a lot of gov't. regulation and trade voodoo, but whatever the reason, i do not see the country doomed to a blazing re-entry like the shuttle, i see us as a collective whole getting leaner and meaner in the new world order, we still the big fish in a little pond. So go get drunk for a week or two and then get up off the floor and put on a new face and go kick some ass!
I agree 100%. But I have to admit, the view from Detroit or Buffalo is a little darker.

[Marauder2005]

In case anyone hasn't seen these.....

media page
(http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id =22382)

Here is the address for the webcast....
webcast (http://www.ford.com/en/company/skin_global_webcast.htm)

Thanks for the read Steve.

As I read more of this thread the more depressing it gets :(

[RVT04]

So go get drunk for a week or two and then get up off the floor and put on a new face and go kick some ass

Agreed, but how is this different from any other day for me? Kidding.

I am not in manufacturing, but am well degreed in both University and the school of hard knocks. I just so hate to see the cutbacks continue. It makes it so hard on everyone. Dissapoints me more than anything else I guess.
THATS A BIG 10-4

[Silver_04]

If the shareholder's bottom line doesn't get better that is when the worker bees get screwed. The purpose of a corporation is to make money for shareholders.

Ol' Henry trying to keep the company private for so long seems like a pretty good idea now. I've always been of the opinion that a company should be either owned privately or by the workers...but what do I know.

[Warpath]

Being in the auto industry myself, its not easy to hear these things. Being white collar, its interesting to see the difference in attitude about these things with the union. The white collar people I talk to about the Ford and GM layoffs see it as a necessary evil. There is never any mention about how they screw their employees. Anyway....

As mentioned previously, the shift of manufacturing jobs across the boarder/ocean is the natural progression of the industry. The cost of a product is a major consideration when buying something. Its hard for a company to compete with employees making $60/hr with a company with employees making $3/hr. Some of the stuff coming from China is crap. But, a lot of it is as good as stuff made in the US and the Chinese are extremely interested in improving their quality. Therefore, those jobs are moving oversees. So, don't blame Ford or any other industry for moving the jobs oversees. Blame the people buying the cheaper product.

Ford is still paying for the mistakes of the past made by Jack Nasser. The best move they made was getting rid of him.

[jimlam56]

Being in the auto industry myself, its not easy to hear these things. Being white collar, its interesting to see the difference in attitude about these things with the union. The white collar people I talk to see it as a necessary evil. There is never any mention about Ford screwing us. Anyway....

As mentioned previously, the shift of manufacturing jobs across the boarder/ocean is the natural progression of the industry. The cost of a product is a major consideration when buying something. Its hard for a company to compete with employees making $60/hr with a company with employees making $3/hr. Some of the stuff coming from China is crap. But, a lot of it is as good as stuff made in the US and the Chinese are extremely interested in improving their quality. Therefore, those jobs are moving oversees. So, don't blame Ford or any other industry for moving the jobs oversees. Blame the people buying the cheaper product.

Ford is still paying for the mistakes of the past made by Jack Nasser. The best move they made was getting rid of him.

As a former vp in the furniture industry, the same thing happened to it over 10 years ago.
Nowadays 90% of the furniture sold is manufactured overseas.
China, Indonesia, Phillipines, Taiwan.
Watch out for the Chinese automotive industry...

[FordNut]

Watch out for the Chinese automotive industry...
That's a real concern. With the world economy of today along with the technology transfer, Chinese cars will very soon be cheap, high quality, and abundantly available around the world. Much more of a threat than the Japanese cars of the '70s.

Eventually China's economy will change so that the workers make more money and can actually afford the products they manufacture. Then China will be outsourcing to South America or Africa or Korea where the labor is cheaper.

[FordNut]

Ol' Henry trying to keep the company private for so long seems like a pretty good idea now. I've always been of the opinion that a company should be either owned privately or by the workers...but what do I know.
Absolutely! I'm happy to work for a privately owned company. The last company I worked for went public and it's amazing what a difference it makes. End of quarter, every time, big push to "make the numbers". Bunch of BS.

[MarauderMike]

While certainly sad times for all involved competition dictates the marketplace. Competition by all means is a healthy thing in a level playing field, unforteunately in America we do not have a level playing field. We cannot solely blame corporate America, corporate shareholders or the workforce for the woes facing much of America today. Yes, imported cars are being produced cheaper and sold cheaper and yes those companies are profitable. What has always irritated me is that we are not playing on a level playing field if we look at it in terms of not just North America, but globally. Our imported competition is allowed to bring vehicles into this country virtually unencumbered by taxes and tariffs, whereas US automakers have all but given up exporting overseas as a result of outrageously high taxes and tariffs making it nearly impossible to sell a car overseas. So I often wonder to myself where the US State Department and US Congress has been who negoiate these trade agreements and treaties, it would seem they have not been on our side(IMHO). I'm not suggesting that the import companies do not deserve to make a profit, but let's level the playing field just a little bit.

Just for clarification, I picked this up off one of the financial websites:

Ford's St. Louis plant will be the first plant idled, in the first quarter of
this year. A plant near Atlanta will close at the end of this year and a plant
in Wixom, Mich., will close in the second quarter of 2007, according to Ford
Americas President Mark Fields, the architect of the plan

[bigslim]

While certainly sad times for all involved competition dictates the marketplace. Competition by all means is a healthy thing in a level playing field, unforteunately in America we do not have a level playing field. We cannot solely blame corporate America, corporate shareholders or the workforce for the woes facing much of America today. Yes, imported cars are being produced cheaper and sold cheaper and yes those companies are profitable. What has always irritated me is that we are not playing on a level playing field if we look at it in terms of not just North America, but globally. Our imported competition is allowed to bring vehicles into this country virtually unencumbered by taxes and tariffs, whereas US automakers have all but given up exporting overseas as a result of outrageously high taxes and tariffs making it nearly impossible to sell a car overseas. So I often wonder to myself where the US State Department and US Congress has been who negoiate these trade agreements and treaties, it would seem they have not been on our side(IMHO). I'm not suggesting that the import companies do not deserve to make a profit, but let's level the playing field just a little bit.

Just for clarification, I picked this up off one of the financial websites:

Ford's St. Louis plant will be the first plant idled, in the first quarter of
this year. A plant near Atlanta will close at the end of this year and a plant
in Wixom, Mich., will close in the second quarter of 2007, according to Ford
Americas President Mark Fields, the architect of the plan
This is something I have been saying for years. I would not mind so much the imports being here if we could sell as freely in their countries.

On another note, I was glad to see the management take blame for what has happened at Ford. Everyone wants to blame the Union for putting the Big Three out of business. As we witnessed today Bill Ford said it was their ignoring what people want. They tried to sell what they made, not what was wanted.

My plant manager today assured us that the Tool and Die building will not go anywhere. It will be needed even more now for new devolopment.

[MarauderMike]

It's good to know that you are in a safe area in the company Daryl.

I think Bill Ford put it well today. The company needs to perform as a team from every level with every voice contributing and it seems as if Ford has come a long way in a few short months in getting a running start at this program. Oddly as I was listening to Mark Fields talk about what was discovered as being wrong and what is was going to take to fix it sounded a lot like the same things my Dad was telling me about the company 30 years ago.
No doubt in my mind that Jack Nasser was one of the worst things to ever happen to Ford North America but we do have to fault the Board of Directors for letting him stay on that long. Let's not even get into the 30 Million he got for leaving!

New rallying cry:"Buy American, Buy Ford"....... oh yeah, no more PT Cruisers for you! LOL

[Petrograde]

My plant manager today assured us that the Tool and Die building will not go anywhere. It will be needed even more now for new devolopment.

Glad to hear that Slim...

[TooManyFords]

Everyone wants to blame the Union for putting the Big Three out of business.

Remember, this is my opinion...

I do.


John

[bigslim]

Remember, this is my opinion...

I do.


John
I guess you didn't hear the news conference. There was nothing said that placed blamed on the union. It was because of poor management decisions. Too little production in too many plants, outdated products, not offering new products that people want all contributed to this. Mighty funny how now management is asking us, the people on the floor for help and suggestions. They didn't ask for our help when they were making all the poor decisions that led us to this point.

I don't know what the union has done to you but I don't appreciate your constant bashing of the union. This thread was to show some sympathy to those that may have lost their jobs. I think it is very poor taste that do this. I would never wish this on anyone but if it were to happened to you "Oh Well" would be my response.

[STLR FN]

Well let's see how can I put this, we at my plant basically 7-9 mos to get our heads out of our collective asses and get our sht together or we go bye bye.

[bigslim]

Well let's see how can I put this, we at my plant basically 7-9 mos to get our heads out of our collective asses and get our sht together or we go bye bye.
That is what happened at my plant a couple of years ago. My plant was the number one plant to close. We did all that we had to do to achieve the level of FPS that we are at now. We are now the darlings of the Stamping Division and everyone wants to do a walkthrough of plant to see what we did to change in such a short time. Now there is no talk of our plant closing. Good luck DJ. It can be done.

[Mike Poore]

..... Let's not even get into the 30 Million he got for leaving!

New rallying cry:"Buy American, Buy Ford"....... oh yeah, no more PT Cruisers for you! LOL

And there's the rub.

Why shouldn't Darryl buy a PT cruiser?

Someone made the vehicle he wanted, at a price he could afford. Sadly, that someone was not Ford, and not in the US, and not by US workers. Boycotting superior products at better prices just feeds the corporate incompetence that lead to where we now stand.

They gave in to the outrageous union demands in the 60's and 70's because it was easy, and they were on top; just add it to the cost of the crap we're foisting on the consumer, they said.

I'm not sure it's wages that's killing the corporations, but the structuring of the pension plans, ...that's the big culprit. Those folks who are howling that we're not smart enough to manage and protect our own retirement plans ought to take a good look at what's happened to the automobile industry, especially, Ford & Gm.

I was with Charlie and looked at the Rouge river plant, with the flowers on the roof, and at Bill Ford saying we need "green" vehicles nobody wants, while watching 'em slide closer and closer to the abyss.

Batteries are NOT the answer, as it costs more to charge them than to burn the gas to run the cars, never mind the law suits, when the GD things start exploding.

One more thing: Get the Government, the EPA and OSHA the hell out of our manufacturing facilities. And... while we're at it, go find that bastard that dreamed up the ISO scam ......and :uzi:

[Dragcity]

It sounds like the Stamping plant in Buffalo is safe for a while. Others didn't fair so well. Sorry to hear that.

I think we, as a group, are well on our way to solving the problems in the auto industry, and other industries in the world marketpalce. I have read some very good and interesting thoughts in this thread, very thought provoking.

I particularly agree with the faulty trade agreements.


Thanks to all for sharing their thoughts.

[Warpath]

While certainly sad times for all involved competition dictates the marketplace. Competition by all means is a healthy thing in a level playing field, unforteunately in America we do not have a level playing field. We cannot solely blame corporate America, corporate shareholders or the workforce for the woes facing much of America today. Yes, imported cars are being produced cheaper and sold cheaper and yes those companies are profitable. What has always irritated me is that we are not playing on a level playing field if we look at it in terms of not just North America, but globally. Our imported competition is allowed to bring vehicles into this country virtually unencumbered by taxes and tariffs, whereas US automakers have all but given up exporting overseas as a result of outrageously high taxes and tariffs making it nearly impossible to sell a car overseas. So I often wonder to myself where the US State Department and US Congress has been who negoiate these trade agreements and treaties, it would seem they have not been on our side(IMHO). I'm not suggesting that the import companies do not deserve to make a profit, but let's level the playing field just a little bit.
...

I know for a fact there is a tax on incomming small trucks (Ranger, Colorado, S10 size). It is commonly referred to as the "chicken tax." I don't remember all the details. But, a long, long time ago, one of the eastern countries taxed our chicken exports. Something about the transaction pissed off the US. So, in retaliation, the US started taxing these particular vehicles. There has been some rumors going around that the US may lift this tax. If they do, these small import trucks will get even cheaper. The US big three will not be able to compete with them anymore. They can hardly compete in this segment as it is.

[hitchhiker]

I know for a fact there is a tax on incomming small trucks (Ranger, Colorado, S10 size). It is commonly referred to as the "chicken tax." I don't remember all the details. But, a long, long time ago, one of the eastern countries taxed our chicken exports. Something about the transaction pissed off the US. So, in retaliation, the US started taxing these particular vehicles. There has been some rumors going around that the US may lift this tax. If they do, these small import trucks will get even cheaper. The US big three will not be able to compete with them anymore. They can hardly compete in this segment as it is.

Our people need to "Wise the F*** Up" and start buying things including cars that employ US Citizens.

:mad2:

[STLR FN]

I know what you mean but by you statement alone is very misleading. Toyota, Nissan, Honda and BMW all have plants here in the states that employ US citizens. So peolpe buying a Camry, Titans, and Accords are buying cars that employ US citizens.
Our people need to "Wise the F*** Up" and start buying things including cars that employ US Citizens.

:mad2:

[dwasson]

Our people need to "Wise the F*** Up" and start buying things including cars that employ US Citizens.

:mad2:

Why should I hurt my family to help yours?

[jerrym3]

In a recent comparison road test of four cars, the three foreign cars were all built in the USA. The Ford Fusion was built in Mexico.

Also, supposedly, some Asian car makers are setting up shop in the Detroit area in an attempt to employ out of work big three design staff. That's not helping the blue collar worker, but at least its something.

This doesn't make it any easier to see our once great automotive industry fall on it's fate; it's just a fact of corporate life. We lost the electronics industry, and now we'll lose the auto industry as well. (But we'll keep cranking out lawyers and giving our CEOs more money than they can spend in a lifetime. Heck, if the CEOs can't do the job right, we'll fire them and give them more money than they can spend in a lifetime.)

When you think back to how we, as a country, were once admired worldwide, now, we don't even get top marks for the intelligence of our students anymore.

As a kid in the 50s, the new 1955 models as compared to the somewhat (for the most part) frumpy (?) 1954 models was something to see. The difference in the 55 Chevy, Fords, and Plymouths over the 1954s was amazing. Sure, some of the changes were purely visual (two tone paint, wrap around windshields), but other improvement (8 cylinder Chevys and Plymouths) were not.

I remember working in an auto body shop in 1962 where they sold new cars up front. I thought to myself, who the heck is going to buy this dumpy little four door sedan with a four speed on the column, manual trans: a Datsun! My co-worker bought a Datsun Fairlady, a Japanese sports car. He took a lot of ribbing. Little did we know that that car would eventually become the Z car and how many Datsuns/Nissans would be sold.

We should have known something big was going to happen when Honda started selling 4 cylinder Honda motorcyles and then moved into the automobile field.

At least we were king of the hill for quite a while.

[hitchhiker]

Why should I hurt my family to help yours?

How Very Re-Public-Corp of you!

(my new word, do you like it!)

No body asks anyone to hurt their family.

Just make intellegent buying decisions and...

Because our fellow citizens should matter, @#$%&!

What the &%@ kind of place has our country turned into!

Dayam!

:mad2:

[Mike Poore]

How Very Re-Public-Corp of you!

Better tone it down, David. I'd like to hear some more thoughtful discussion, before Logan gets nudged towards the "button" (again).

There's plenty of industry insiders on the net who can weigh in on this, and give us insightful perspective, given the chance.;)

[hitchhiker]

Better tone it down, David. I'd like to hear some more thoughtful discussion, before Logan gets nudged towards the "button" (again).

There's plenty of industry insiders on the net who can weigh in on this, and give us insightful perspective, given the chance.;)

Sounds OK to me.

I like my new word though, I will use it often, but not often here.

:D

Regards,

David

[Bluerauder]

Someone made the vehicle he wanted, at a price he could afford. Sadly, that someone was not Ford, and not in the US, and not by US workers.
I think that Mike's statement ^^^^^ above is key to the discussion. When it came time to get rid of the Thunderbird, I got the Marauder that I wanted. However, it wasn't until that $35K MSRP was offset by a bunch of incentives that pushed it into the "doable" range for me.

I really don't know why .... but I have never been inside a Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia or Subaru.... dealership. For that matter, I have never visited a Mercedes, BMW, or Audi dealership. The first batch don't interest me (they all kinda look the same to me). The second bunch is typically out of my needs & affordability range (they just ain't my style). So, when I am in the market for a car, I tend to go with typical and traditional American Iron. Unfortunately, the label of "American made" is getting very blurry. H3LL, I didn't even know the Marauder was made in Canada until I found out on this site .... not that it would have made a difference in a car that I wanted very badly.

It seems that keeping me (and folks like me) out of the competitors dealerships is the true goal of Ford, GM, and (Chrysler ??) In Mike's words, they have to offer what I want at a price that I can afford.

As US brand prices increase and the selection decreases, more and more folks are moving toward the imports. In very simplistic terms, prices are pushing Ford and GM into my 2nd bunch above (either beyond my needs or outside my affordability range). Now those so-so similar looking vehicles in batch #1 don't seem too bad after all.

Maybe this is all rather self-evident to most folks here ... I guess I needed to get it off my chest. :D

P.S. If you ever see me driving a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla .... you can be assured that "The End is Near". ;)

[Fastronald]

I lost 32 years when 3M closed our plant in 2002.

I feel bad for anyone losing a good job.

But the fact now days is....get in line.

[TooManyFords]

I don't know what the union has done to you but I don't appreciate your constant bashing of the union. This thread was to show some sympathy to those that may have lost their jobs. I think it is very poor taste that do this. I would never wish this on anyone but if it were to happened to you "Oh Well" would be my response.

First, I've never bashed the Unions here before so you can't say its "constant". Second, I don't see it as "bashing" when it is something that is past its time anyway. The writing is on the wall, but like so many others, regardless of field or experience, they never take the time to read.

I could quote from messages above where you mention it took the threat of closing the plant before, how did you put it? "get your collective arses" out of somewhere before you fixed it... Why did it get into that position to begin with? Why is it always managements fault? Why didn't union say something sooner?

This is not a problem we can fix right now, right here. Can't be done. Too many Jimmy Hoffa's running around... I think everyone is afraid if they didn't have the union to back them up that everything would go to hell in a handbasket... it won't. It would certainly allow companies to clean house and get rid of lazy workers, and I see NOTHING wrong with that.

How do I know so much, you might ask? I worked at John Deere here in Waterloo, that's how. Your union and the one at Deere's was cast from the same mold. My brother works there now and 20 years after I left there I hear that nothing has changed. It's no wonder Deere's threatened to fire all the workers the last time they striked. I've personally seen workers sit on their azzes because they had nothing to do, and when the supervisor came around and asked one to get a broom to sweep the area they just said "sorry, not in my job description". What the he!!. That, my friend, is why the unions need to go.

If I had my way, Unions would go away and everyone would keep their jobs with the simple understanding that if they didn't want to work for their living, the door is "that way ===>"

Am I happy to see the innocent losing their jobs because of lazy union workers? NO. Absolutely NOT. Before anyone starts bashing me, just be aware that what I describe up there is happening on a daily basis and whether or not you want to admit it, it needs to be fixed.

As the saying goes, "if the shoe fits..."

John

[remember, this is my very own opinion and I'm entitled to it]

[MikesMerc]

As mentioned previously, the shift of manufacturing jobs across the boarder/ocean is the natural progression of the industry. The cost of a product is a major consideration when buying something. Its hard for a company to compete with employees making $60/hr with a company with employees making $3/hr. Some of the stuff coming from China is crap. But, a lot of it is as good as stuff made in the US and the Chinese are extremely interested in improving their quality. Therefore, those jobs are moving oversees.

This is the reality and the cold truth. All we are seeing here is a natural progression to a global economy...nothing more, nothing less. The auto industry is just the next in line.

Let's just look at our manufacturing industries that have gone overseas already....textiles, steel, furniture, electronics, appliances and more. They've all gone away for the most part in the USA.

You cannot blame "bad products" on all these industries going off shore. The simple reason is that competition puts pressure and prices, price pressure puts pressure and costs, and going to cheaper sources of labor and overhead is the result. Not rocket science.

Of course lower sales hurt. However, dimishing sales and market share only worsen the problems that were already there. Even if Ford and GM had maintained market share in the last 5 years it would only postpone the decline, not cure it. Bottom line, no matter how good your products are, if they are over priced, you will not be able to compete.

There is no answer for the dwindling of the US manufacturing base. It started 80 yearsd ago and continues today. We are only seeing another step in the process. Although I am bummed out to hear of the auto industry losses, and the fact that i am personally effected by it as well, the reality is that the decay in the US auto industry is not the real problem. The real problem is how we continue to transition our economy to service and technical based industries. For this is our only hope in trying to maintain the middle class which manufacturing built.

[Silver_04]

Well I used to work for Delphi and saw the writing on the wall and bailed before they filed for bankruptcy which, BTW, is an amazing feat by that company's management to drive the world’s largest automotive supplier into the ground in less than 10 years. And now I find myself working for a Japanese automotive supplier. Am I happy to be working for a foreign company: not so much. Am I happy to be eating: yup. So before we decide to become totally isolationistic here I would like to say that many foreign companies invest in American labor. Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes and the list goes on. And don’t get on this kick of buy only things made by U.S citizens because your house would be without many of the appliances you use daily.

And as has been touched on by many here, there is plenty of management, labor and government blame to go 'round. I have nothing but contempt for upper management with their ridiculous bonuses and salaries. Labor has every right to safe working conditions and collectively negotiate good pay but I scratch my head at the notion of a nondegreed line worker at Delphi getting paid more than me to drive screws into a radio I designed. And our government has really let us down on trade. The import laws are just the tip of the iceberg. In many countries that US companies compete those companies can't even own the land the buildings sit on nor can the company act autonomously.

And let's not blame any one particular political party and administration for the issues being discussed here because this issue goes way back to before many of us were even old enough to vote. Democrats lost the Congress in '96 for the first time since the Eisenhower administration if I recall correctly, and that was a long time to get some better trade laws enacted to protect the labor they so adamantly claim to represent. Hold the applause on foresight...

[MarauderMike]

Why shouldn't Darryl buy a PT cruiser?




I was teasing Daryl, he knows :D

[bigslim]

Why should I hurt my family to help yours?
I hope that was joke Dan. :confused:

[dwasson]

I hope that was joke Dan. :confused:

Not so much a joke as a frustration. There are a lot of people here telling me that I should not buy what I want. They're saying that there should be laws either denying me access to what I want to buy or making what I want cost more. So I ask all of you, what is in it for me? Why should I pay more or not get what I want?

[MikesMerc]

Not so much a joke as a frustration. There are a lot of people here telling me that I should not buy what I want. They're saying that there should be laws either denying me access to what I want to buy or making what I want cost more. So I ask all of you, what is in it for me? Why should I pay more or not get what I want?

Interesting point Dan.

I'm also a strong beleiver in the open market. Meddling around with taxes, tariffs, and other market barriers never works....ever. Never had, Never will.

If folks want our government to work hard to bring down barriers to USA entry into foreign markets...that's great. I support that too. But putting up our own import barriers to hedge any industry not meeting customer demands on quality, features, or price is quite another, and is doomed to failure.

I know Dan means no harm with his comments. He has a VERY valid point. No ones choices should be artificially limited.

[MikesMerc]

Well I used to work for Delphi and saw the writing on the wall and bailed before they filed for bankruptcy which, BTW, is an amazing feat by that company's management to drive the world’s largest automotive supplier into the ground in less than 10 years. And now I find myself working for a Japanese automotive supplier. Am I happy to be working for a foreign company: not so much. Am I happy to be eating: yup. So before we decide to become totally isolationistic here I would like to say that many foreign companies invest in American labor. Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes and the list goes on. And don’t get on this kick of buy only things made by U.S citizens because your house would be without many of the appliances you use daily.

And as has been touched on by many here, there is plenty of management, labor and government blame to go 'round. I have nothing but contempt for upper management with their ridiculous bonuses and salaries. Labor has every right to safe working conditions and collectively negotiate good pay but I scratch my head at the notion of a nondegreed line worker at Delphi getting paid more than me to drive screws into a radio I designed. And our government has really let us down on trade. The import laws are just the tip of the iceberg. In many countries that US companies compete those companies can't even own the land the buildings sit on nor can the company act autonomously.

And let's not blame any one particular political party and administration for the issues being discussed here because this issue goes way back to before many of us were even old enough to vote. Democrats lost the Congress in '96 for the first time since the Eisenhower administration if I recall correctly, and that was a long time to get some better trade laws enacted to protect the labor they so adamantly claim to represent. Hold the applause on foresight...

Wow...well said sir! :concur:

[bigslim]

First, I've never bashed the Unions here before so you can't say its "constant". Second, I don't see it as "bashing" when it is something that is past its time anyway. The writing is on the wall, but like so many others, regardless of field or experience, they never take the time to read.

I could quote from messages above where you mention it took the threat of closing the plant before, how did you put it? "get your collective arses" out of somewhere before you fixed it... Why did it get into that position to begin with? Why is it always managements fault? Why didn't union say something sooner?

[remember, this is my very own opinion and I'm entitled to it]
This is true. The program that got us back on track at my building was a program made by the UAW. It was the membership that made the difference in our plant. Management wanted to close us down. It was our people along with the help of a certain Plant Manager that made it all possible for us to do what we did to keep our plant alive. People at Headquarters wanted the Tool and Plant gone so they could outsourse all of the work. When it was shown to them that we built better dies than our overseas competitors and did so in a timely fashion they gave our building a reprive. Also, it was noted that all the dies that were made oversea were coming into our building for rework because of the poor quality of work they did. It was in the best interest to keep our building open. GM has no Tool and Die of their own so they are at the mercy of others.

Also, don't talk bad about people working in the union. I was hired in to do a job. It was not my doing that this job already had a union. There are people that are hired into different jobs and have to learn to deal with cards that are delt to them. Am I glad that there is union? Yes. Am I glad that I don't have to work under unsafe conditions? Yes. I'm I glad that get my paid leaves? Yes. Am I glad to have health care? Yes. Am I glad that I can go back to school (which I'm doing now) and have my education paid for? Yes. Am I glad that if I get laid off I have some time and security to help me start over? Yes. I am glad to see what the unions put back into the community? Yes. Am I glad that by making a good living I can support my areas economy? Yes. I am very thankful that union has provided for my great-grandfather's family, my grandfather's family, my father's family and now me.

We can all sit back and point fingers at who and what was wrong with Ford. This will not change what has happened. I agree that there are pros and cons to both sides of this argument. Sure the union has to and will change. Sure management will have to communicate and ask for more imput from it's union workers. We all have to work smarter.

[dwasson]

This is true. The program that got us back on track at my building was a program made by the UAW. It was the membership that made the difference in our plant. Management wanted to close us down. It was our people along with the help of a certain Plant Manager that made it all possible for us to do what we did to keep our plant alive. People at Headquarters wanted the Tool and Plant gone so they could outsourse all of the work.

But Ford's reason for being isn't to keep people working. Ford has to make mony for investors. In your case the UAW convinced Ford that the best return on investment would be to keep that plant open. If outsourcing all of the work produced a better ROI, management could be sued for not acting in the best interests of the shareholders. Without investors everyone's out of work.

[jimlam56]

Well I used to work for Delphi and saw the writing on the wall and bailed before they filed for bankruptcy which, BTW, is an amazing feat by that company's management to drive the world’s largest automotive supplier into the ground in less than 10 years. And now I find myself working for a Japanese automotive supplier. Am I happy to be working for a foreign company: not so much. Am I happy to be eating: yup. So before we decide to become totally isolationistic here I would like to say that many foreign companies invest in American labor. Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes and the list goes on. And don’t get on this kick of buy only things made by U.S citizens because your house would be without many of the appliances you use daily.

And as has been touched on by many here, there is plenty of management, labor and government blame to go 'round. I have nothing but contempt for upper management with their ridiculous bonuses and salaries. Labor has every right to safe working conditions and collectively negotiate good pay but I scratch my head at the notion of a nondegreed line worker at Delphi getting paid more than me to drive screws into a radio I designed. And our government has really let us down on trade. The import laws are just the tip of the iceberg. In many countries that US companies compete those companies can't even own the land the buildings sit on nor can the company act autonomously.

And let's not blame any one particular political party and administration for the issues being discussed here because this issue goes way back to before many of us were even old enough to vote. Democrats lost the Congress in '96 for the first time since the Eisenhower administration if I recall correctly, and that was a long time to get some better trade laws enacted to protect the labor they so adamantly claim to represent. Hold the applause on foresight...

Agreed. The global economy is a reality, we are just not allowed to participate.

[bigslim]

Not so much a joke as a frustration. There are a lot of people here telling me that I should not buy what I want. They're saying that there should be laws either denying me access to what I want to buy or making what I want cost more. So I ask all of you, what is in it for me? Why should I pay more or not get what I want?
What's in it for you is a job in the long run. If we make money here, we spend money here. A fine example is what is going to happen to all the businesses around Wixom? Stores and restaraunts will suffer. Schools will be affected because the biggest tax payer there will no longer have a shop there. It is true that you can buy whatever you want. I really didn't want to buy a MM. I did it to support my company which supports this community. Yes I have a PT Cruiser. That helps support my brother's company who on the other hand drives a Ford.

People believe the hype they read in the press. Don't believe that Toyota or Honda builds a better car than we do. They roll in on towtrucks just like every other car makers products do on Monday mornings. I bet you didn't know that the Toyota Prirus was one of the most recalled cars last year. You know why you didn't know? Because it was not plastered all over the front pages like Ford's and GM's have been.

Did Toyota or Honda rush to the aid of the victims of Katrina or Rita? Does Toyota or Honda invest millions into education here? These are reasons enough to buy American.

You should know better than anyone else here why you should buy American. Aren't you presently looking for a job? Remember, I can't support your job if I don't have my job.

[bigslim]

But Ford's reason for being isn't to keep people working. Ford has to make mony for investors. In your case the UAW convinced Ford that the best return on investment would be to keep that plant open. If outsourcing all of the work produced a better ROI, management could be sued for not acting in the best interests of the shareholders. Without investors everyone's out of work.
This maybe true but without customers to buy their products there would be no product to invest in.

[Joe Walsh]

While certainly sad times for all involved competition dictates the marketplace. Competition by all means is a healthy thing in a level playing field, unforteunately in America we do not have a level playing field. We cannot solely blame corporate America, corporate shareholders or the workforce for the woes facing much of America today. Yes, imported cars are being produced cheaper and sold cheaper and yes those companies are profitable. What has always irritated me is that we are not playing on a level playing field if we look at it in terms of not just North America, but globally. Our imported competition is allowed to bring vehicles into this country virtually unencumbered by taxes and tariffs, whereas US automakers have all but given up exporting overseas as a result of outrageously high taxes and tariffs making it nearly impossible to sell a car overseas. So I often wonder to myself where the US State Department and US Congress has been who negoiate these trade agreements and treaties, it would seem they have not been on our side(IMHO). I'm not suggesting that the import companies do not deserve to make a profit, but let's level the playing field just a little bit.



Yep...This is what pi$$es me off too!

We can't even sell fruits and vegetables in Japan because of the ridiculous tariffs that are designed to protect THEIR farm workers.
Meanwhile we throw open the doors to anything, anyone wants to import into the USA.
I'm not sure what the answer is because a Tariff-Import Tax war is never good but the US government has done a terrible job at twisting Japan's arm into lowering their Tariffs.

[hitchhiker]

But Ford's reason for being isn't to keep people working. Ford has to make mony for investors. In your case the UAW convinced Ford that the best return on investment would be to keep that plant open. If outsourcing all of the work produced a better ROI, management could be sued for not acting in the best interests of the shareholders. Without investors everyone's out of work.

I am sick and tired of hearing about investors. Most of the investment in the USA is held in the hands of a few. There is or was a social contract about a population with a work ethic and the ability to earn a decent living with safe working conditions. I submit that we as Americans stand for a better life for working people, not the Dickinsion sweatshops and workhouses which the investor class would impose if there weren't protections for working people.

Does it make you feel good that children making 11 cents an hour make 60 percent of the shoes and clothing sold today in the US? The 'race to the bottom' only really benefits the very wealthy investor class while depriving Americans of a decent living. Occupation after occupation is feeling the sting of this manipulation of production by the investor class. Americans need to return politicians to office sworn to represent them instead of the corporate and wealthy.

Our country is being gutted and striped of the means of production and ultimately its defense by the current offshore migration of jobs and the means of production.

This is serious stuff folks and goes well beyond politics!

We need another Harry Truman or Theodore Roosevelt and we him him now!

Best Regards,

David

[rocknrod]

...... GM has no Tool and Die of their own so they are at the mercy of others.
.......
An enterprising manager who wanted to ensure longevity in his plant, may want to have a talk to the GM department that needs tooling.....if proven cost effective and of quality, they don't care where they get it. Know what I mean ?

[dwasson]

We can't even sell fruits and vegetables in Japan because of the ridiculous tariffs that are designed to protect THEIR farm workers.
Meanwhile we throw open the doors to anything, anyone wants to import into the USA.
I'm not sure what the answer is because a Tariff-Import Tax war is never good but the US government has done a terrible job at twisting Japan's arm into lowering their Tariffs.

Well then work at opening their markets, not closing ours.

[Joe Walsh]

Well then work at opening their markets, not closing ours.

Sure, next time I'm employed by the State Department or the Commerce Department I'll make it my priority!

[Merc-O-matic]

Maybe if the Congressman and Senators had their FAT
pensions & health care plans cut, and had to PAY INTO
Social Security like the rest of us..... things might be better?
Just a thought.....

Gotta Love It!:pimp:

[Agent M79]

Hmm. Interesting. According to THIS (http://www.bls.gov/cps/prev_yrs.htm) we haven't had an unemployment rate above 10% ever. Mostly in the 4% to 6% range in the last 10 years.

Not being an economist, I assume that when I see a high figure getting lower in subsequent years that something seriously bad happened to the job market and then adjusted out. People went back to work. Maybe not in their original field, but some form of work.

It's human nature to seek advantage. People don't choose disadvantageous circumstances. Sometimes they find themselves in less than stellar circumstances but usually when an advantage is offered, it is more often than not going to be taken. It's hard to blame someone for being in a union when it's obviously advantageous to do so in their life circumstance.

I wonder what I would do if someone offered me the advantage to make more money, have better benefits, a greater degree of job security in my choosen profession? How would I know it would lead to the eventual demise of my position? How do I know my position would not be in danger anyway?

I suspect that people blame unions largely because they are there. I suspect people blame management because they are there. I suspect people blame shortsighted stockholders because they are there. I suspect people blame the government because it is there.

Companies without unions fail. Companies with talented and engaged management fail. Privately owned companies and companies whose employees hold all or most of the stock fail. Companies not subject to stringent government control or meddling fail.

We can lament the fact that industry, money, and jobs are going away but are we naive to think the end is near when so many countries in this world exist and have for a long time without a fraction of the primary industries that we have?

Maybe our expectations are a little out of line? I see a lot of people obsessed with whats next, newest, best, most expensive, premium, deluxe, etc. and that is what drives a lot of popular culture today. Who doesn't expect and feel entitled that they should have just a little bit more than their parents did? A lot of people do and it strikes me that it's those people that commerce and government speak to.

Granted, not all people believe in the 'something for nothing' mentality and there are exceptions to every generality like I have painted above. But even a casual observer of our culture would see that the values of hard work, determination, and community have given way to an increasing entitlement mentality, resting on our collective laurels, and a more mercenary or individualistic attitude.

If concepts like keeping industry on our soil are important, if reversing values you see as eroding is important, if building something deep and enduring is virtuous, and if having real pride is important, it's my feeling that to do so requires occasionally accepting less in our individual lives to build these things. It's a sad reality that it takes time to do this and you could literally spend your entire life working for those goals and never see the fruits yourself.

The people who are eating our lunch have adopted values that got us where we are today and which we have allowed to erode. The Japanese didn't get where they did on their own. Remember? They came here, saw the best that we had to offer, took it home, and then refined it. We stopped refining our best and focused on what was easiest. They ate our lunch. They are now in the unenviable position we found ourselves in with them in the 80's. Korea and China are Japan's Japan now.

Others will use their advantage, as is our nature, use the same values that got us where we were at our best, albeit a little more refined, and build for themselves what we have that we lament is going away.

I hate anyone to lose a job. I have lost jobs. Things were more than unpleasant for a while a couple of times. We can only blame what is available to blame and that is why it takes guts, which are in shorter supply every day, to stand up and say how things should be.

It takes guts because it makes you are target. It takes guts because you are judged more by your failures than your successes. Bad news travels faster and broader than accomplishment. Being great is torn down by being human because salaciousness rules and virture is muted. Decorum has fewer practioners.

[bigslim]

An enterprising manager who wanted to ensure longevity in his plant, may want to have a talk to the GM department that needs tooling.....if proven cost effective and of quality, they don't care where they get it. Know what I mean ?
The problem with this is that the vendors can dictate what they want to charge. At my plant if a vendor wants to much Ford can always say that it will be done in house.

[FordNut]

I am sick and tired of hearing about investors. Most of the investment in the USA is held in the hands of a few.
The investors are the owners. Doesn't matter who they are. Don't give them a reasonable return on their investment and they sell. Everybody sells, nobody wants it, the whole enterprise becomes basically worthless. Can't borrow money, can't pay bills, can't pay benefits, can't pay salaries, etc. These are in fact the most important people to the company, even more important than the customers.

[MikesMerc]

Someone needs to do a little homework. I'm not going mention any names. But they need to understand that the largest investors on Wallstreet are pension plans, 401k, 403c, etc, etc. Mutual Funds, the most popular choice for employee retirement savings, are the LARGEST investors on Wallstreet.

I don't know about you folks, but I'm certainly not wealthy, and I NEED my meager retirement investments to grow.

The bottom line is that the VAST majority of fortune 500 companies is owned publicly and traded in Mutual Funds or is owned outright (straight stocks) by benefit plans whose trustees do the investing for a fixed fee.

All this hype about Corporate Greed and the "mysterious" Wealthy Few is nothing but conspiracy hysteria that makes for good John Grisham novels. Sure, there is obviously some very wealthy individual investors that dwarf the common joe. But, the facts do not lie. Your 401k plans, pension plans, and IRAs are far more tied into Wallstreet than any other group of individuals.

And, all that aside, Wallstreet doesn't really matter anyway. Privately owned small business in Amerca employs more people than all of the Fortune 1000 combined.

Time to break out the tinfoil hats! The pod people have taken over the boardrooms and the whitehouse!!!!! :eek:

[RCSignals]

You missed the big management blood-letting a few months ago. I live just a couple miles from Ford World HQ. It wasn't safe walking under the HQ windows for a few weeks there.

Apparently there will be more management going as well, another 12% I read

[RCSignals]

Not so much a joke as a frustration. There are a lot of people here telling me that I should not buy what I want. They're saying that there should be laws either denying me access to what I want to buy or making what I want cost more. So I ask all of you, what is in it for me? Why should I pay more or not get what I want?


I understand. However, on the other hand, I'd like to buy what I want, problem being what I want isn't made in the US, or Canada, or even Mexico, anymore. I'd pay 2 or 3 times the price of an item not made in China, and buy it once instead of 6 times because it's crap.

Another frustration is watching turnover of stock at stores go from an item being made in the US to the item being made in China, and price of that item remaining the same, or going up!

now, back to the programme

[RCSignals]

We are discussing Ford here, and Ford seems to be the focus of the NEWS, however, General Motors has announced cutting just as many jobs, and plants as well.
DCX has also announced cutting jobs.

[jerrym3]

I was in the steelworkers union back in the 60's. First day on the job, Joe, the union rep, tells me "you don't work hard. If they want you to work hard, come and see me".

That plant (Alcoa) was relocated from NJ to Pa because it was too expensive to run. My father also worked there. He wound up in a low level public maintenance job.

I got a job for Ford in a parts warehouse as a Picker Packer. I am sorry to admit that, because I knew I couldn't get fired unless I really did something bad, I went from being a topnotch worker to the bottom of the barrel. My excuse to my foreman? "Hey, somebody has to be last".

That plant is now closed.

I was a manager in a KMart warehouse. The union rep (ILGWU) told me, in private, of course, "you don't "F" with me. If you do, I'll get three workers to all agree that you hit me and the company will fire you on the spot."

Best move I ever made was to go to night school, get a degree, and move on with my career. I know that the cost of living, especially in the NY/NJ/Conn area is very high, but how much can you pay a person to do a job that a high school student could do, and still make a profit? (My father never got through the 6th grade.)

On the other side, executive perks, bonuses, high salaries, golden parachutes, stock options, etc? Shameful. (Oh, and let's not overlook what we pay our sports and entertainment industry Kings and Queens.)

As many earlier posts stated, there's plenty of blame to go around.

[Mike Poore]

I did it to support my company which supports this community. Yes I have a PT Cruiser. That helps support my brother's company who on the other hand drives a Ford.

No flames intended here, and when you see the rest of my post, you'll understand why I asked.

Darryl, when you say you're supporting your brother's company, are you saying it's a sibling, or a union worker?

Also, I'm wondering if the Ford and Chrysler plants in Mexico are union shops. I had assumed they were not, but don't know.

That leads me to the next question(s).

Why did the American auto Mfg go to Mexico, in the first place?

To escape unions?
Lower hourly wages?
NAFTA pressure?
To escape environmental regulation?
Lower energy costs?
Incentives from the Mexican Govt?
Tariff reduction?
Flipped a coin?

Usually we can never point to a single reason for anything; but I find it perplexing that our auto manufacturers, would relocate to Mexico while European and Asian manufacturers would come here to build cars. Why didn't they go to Mexico?

[Meteorite]

Mike,

Exactly right. A huge amount of stock in companies like Ford is in mutual funds, like Fidelity or Vanguard. The ultimate owners of these shares are not rich, fat-cat, high-rollers. These are middle class workers, retirees and widows, and depend (whether they are aware of it or not) on companies like Ford Motor Company making a profit, year over year, to guarantee their future livelihood.



I'm not going mention any names. But they need to understand that the largest investors on Wallstreet are pension plans, 401k, 403c, etc, etc. Mutual Funds, the most popular choice for employee retirement savings, are the LARGEST investors on Wallstreet. ...
I don't know about you folks, but I'm certainly not wealthy, and I NEED my meager retirement investments to grow.

[hitchhiker]

Mike,

Exactly right. A huge amount of stock in companies like Ford is in mutual funds, like Fidelity or Vanguard. The ultimate owners of these shares are not rich, fat-cat, high-rollers. These are middle class workers, retirees and widows, and depend (whether they are aware of it or not) on companies like Ford Motor Company making a profit, year over year, to guarantee their future livelihood.

Collectively managed funds act just like the wealthy investment trusts that make up over 80 percent of capital ownership in this market. The result is the same. Emphasis on short term profits at the expense of American civilization.

:D

[Mike Poore]

Collectively managed funds act just like the wealthy investment trusts that make up over 80 percent of capital ownership in this market. The result is the same. Emphasis on short term profits at the expense of American civilization.

:D

What?:confused:

David, why does it make any difference when the stock is traded?

I thought you were howling about where the profits were going.

Sorry to say, I'm at a loss on this one. :dunno:

Can someone explain the stock market to David or me; 'cause one of us don't understand squat about economics.

[hitchhiker]

What?:confused:

David, why does it make any difference when the stock is traded?

I thought you were howling about where the profits were going.

Sorry to say, I'm at a loss on this one. :dunno:

Can someone explain the stock market to David or me; 'cause one of us don't understand squat about economics.

First, I don't howl.

:lol:

I had plenty of economics courses in college. The models have changed with the un-level playing field in the world economy today. China and India undervalue their currencies by 40%!

This kinda throws things off a little, like!

:D

[dwasson]

First, I don't howl.

:lol:

I had plenty of economics courses in college. The models have changed with the un-level playing field in the world economy today. China and India undervalue their currencies by 40%!

This kinda throws things off a little, like!

:D

And how would limiting returns on investment fix that?

[Meteorite]

True -- there does not seem to be much money made on investing in the future of American civilization.

And it does not stop with investors, of course. What is the average time a CEO stays in his/her position in a large corporation? That's right, a few years. Therefore, decisions are nearly always made which will make the company financials look good in the short term (and hence, line the CEO's pockets). This is very often at the expense of the long term health of the company.

This is one area where Ford (theoretically, at least) should have an advantage. The CEO has his name on all the buildings and most of the products. He has a long-term interest in the company doing well.



The result is the same. Emphasis on short term profits at the expense of American civilization.

:D

[Mike Poore]

First, I don't howl. :D

Yes you do! :baaa:

[hdirish50]

So here is what I cannot understand about the Ford Layoffs. Instead of closing plants in the US, why doesn’t Ford layoff employees in Canada and Mexico and keep it’s American employees working. IF somebody knows the answer, let me know.
:argue:

[TooManyFords]

Two words: Health Insurance

John

[Bigdogjim]

Two words: Health Insurance John

Plus higher paychecks!

[Meteorite]

I think Ford is looking at this as a business decision, and I don't think they are sensing any particular ROI (Return on Investment) in keeping those particular US plants active. Mexico, at least, is cheaper, and will bring the cost structure more in line so that Ford has a prayer of selling a decent number of vehicles without losing money on each one.

This article from Time magazine explains the decisions pretty clearly. (http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1152251,00.html)


So here is what I cannot understand about the Ford Layoffs. Instead of closing plants in the US, why doesn’t Ford layoff employees in Canada and Mexico and keep it’s American employees working. IF somebody knows the answer, let me know.
:argue:

[hitchhiker]

And how would limiting returns on investment fix that?

Where did you dream that up?

:D

[hitchhiker]

Yes you do! :baaa:

Political bias showing...

I guess it's always the OTHER side who is howling, whining, etc.

You howl!

:lol:

:D

[hdirish50]

I don’t care what anybody says, when it comes to a US product THE AMERICAN WORKER SHOULD BE TAKEN CARE OF FIRST. And Ford should be ashamed of themselves for not considering the American worker.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
:soap:

[dwasson]

I don’t care what anybody says, when it comes to a US product THE AMERICAN WORKER SHOULD BE TAKEN CARE OF FIRST.
:soap:

Ahead of the people who invest in the company? If so the investors will go somewhere else and the workers are out a month later.

[Mike Poore]

You howl!

:lol:

:D

I know. :rofl:

[Meteorite]

I don’t care what anybody says, when it comes to a US product THE AMERICAN WORKER SHOULD BE TAKEN CARE OF FIRST. And Ford should be ashamed of themselves for not considering the American worker.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
:soap:

For what reason? Philanthropy? The best way for the American worker to guarantee he is "taken care of" is to outproduce his foreign competition, in terms of dollars-per-unit-of-productivity. That is not currently happening.:beatnik:

[Bluerauder]

.... in terms of dollars-per-unit-of-productivity.
Extending that logic ... a Big Mac should cost about 23 cents. :rofl: Remember when it was called "fast food". :rolleyes:

[FordNut]

I don’t care what anybody says, when it comes to a US product THE AMERICAN WORKER SHOULD BE TAKEN CARE OF FIRST. And Ford should be ashamed of themselves for not considering the American worker.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
:soap:
No corporation, domestic or foreign, is in business to provide for the employees' welfare. They are in business to provide value for the investors/owners. Period.

[Meteorite]

Extending that logic ... a Big Mac should cost about 23 cents. :rofl: Remember when it was called "fast food". :rolleyes:

I don't follow you? Are you saying that McDonald's employees are unproductive? That will drive up the price.

As to the price of a Big Mac (or a Ford Fusion, for that matter) if not fiddled with by governmental (or other) intervention, it will pretty quickly drift up to what the market will bear. Big Macs cost what they do because there is an ample supply of people willing to pay that much for them.

Ford Tauruses were as cheap as they were last fall because there was not an ample supply of consumers willing to pay MSRP.

[Dragcity]

Simply put, the top execs are being paid waaaayyy too much when these companies are struggling both financially and ethically.

Why is it that when all these layoffs and "rightsizing" happen, the upper management team typically gets an increase? Things are backward in this respect.

Everyone has made very good and valid points in this thread. Each of us is entilted to, and has exercised his own opinion. Just goes to show you we aren't just a bunch of motorheads afterall.

There's got to be a better way to get on top of the game in manufacturing. Just because we have given up our edge on Textiles, electronics .... Do we have to follow the natural migration with everything else we have, or will have developed in this country. How can we stop it?

[Meteorite]

Simply put, the top execs are being paid waaaayyy too much when these companies are struggling both financially and ethically.

Why is it that when all these layoffs and "rightsizing" happen, the upper management team typically gets an increase? Things are backward in this respect.

Everyone has made very good and valid points in this thread. Each of us is entilted to, and has exercised his own opinion. Just goes to show you we aren't just a bunch of motorheads afterall.

There's got to be a better way to get on top of the game in manufacturing. Just because we have given up our edge on Textiles, electronics .... Do we have to follow the natural migration with everything else we have, or will have developed in this country. How can we stop it?

You make some good points. I think (or hope) that the top execs are no longer "sacred cows" at Ford. I see in the news where Steve Lyons (head of North American Sales & Marketing) and Barbara Gasper (head of Investor Relations) just got the axe. So, this may be a move in the right direction. Certainly, Mark Fields emphasized on Monday that upper management would not be immune. I think 12% of them will be gone by April 1, 2006.

As to the future of American automobiles, I think it is largely up to the consumer. In my view, we on this website view our cars almost as people, certainly (at minimum) as extensions of our being. Most American car buyers think of cars as automotive appliances. Hence, the success of Toyota. They make a bland but reliable automotive appliance. One of the things that Mark Fields said on Monday was that we will be turning the "If we build it, they will buy it" philosophy on its head. We will now follow the dictum: "If they will buy it, we will build it." Flexible manufacturing is a key enabler for this, of course. We found out too late that "they" would not by Freestars.

Does this mean the end of Marauder-like vehicles from FoMoCo? Not necessarily, not if there are enough of us to make it onto Ford's corporate radar screen. My hopes are not incredibly high. We are outnumbered by the "appliance" buyers.

[Bluerauder]

They are in business to provide value for the investors/owners. Period.
I disagree. If that is a 1st tier objective, then it is a failed business model.

A business exists to provide a valued product or service to the customer.
Quality employees assure the quality/value of the product or service.
Balanced pay and benefits retain quality and productive employees.
Quality/valued products and services generate repeat business and referrals.
More business stimulates growth.
Growth generates profits.
Part of the profits are used to reward investors and owners.
Part of the profits should also be invested in employees and capital assets.

The owners make money, the investors make money, the customers get what they want, and the employees are rewarded in proportion to their contribution. GROW or DIE !!!

Failure or misapplication of any area within the above chain can cause the model to break and the company to subsequently fail.

[Dragcity]

I believe the average consumer tries to get the most utility for their dollar. I know I did this when shopping for my Marauder.

Do we need more afordable autos, yes, we do. Why can't U.S. manufacturers lead that effort, rather than follow it. I know this brings us back to cutting help, wages, benefits and so on. Did we forget about ECONOMIES OF SCALE.? That's part of what I meant when I said we are putting ourselves out of business. We have created a downward spiral to this effect.

I would love to see one of our final big two put the effort into turning this around. Maybe Ford will with their new approach.

Please note that when I use the word "we", I am referring to the collective North American group of consumers and producers.

I am lucky enough to own a car where everything on it says "Made in The USA" (The other one has "Made in The U.K.).

Pipe-dreams, I know.

[Meteorite]

I disagree. If that is a 1st tier objective, then it is a failed business model.

I tend to agree. I remember vividly the day I sat in a Business Leadership Initiative session in Livonia, Michigan, watching then-CEO Jac Nasser announce (on video) that Shareholder Value would become Ford's number one priority. Ford stock traded at $31/share that day.

It was trading at $8.33 the last time I looked.:(

I would like to see "Make the best damn cars in the world!" as Ford's top priority. But, that's just me.

[Dragcity]

You said a mouthful BLUERAUDER !

[gpfarrell]

I disagree.
A business exists to provide a valued product or service to the customer.


Uhh, I think it should read, "A business exists to provide a valued product or service to the customer in order to earn sustainable profits."

All that other stuff is nice, but if you ain't makin' money, it's not business... it's charity. I'm all for charity, but let's not confuse the two.

The global auto industry has been swamped with over capacity... Ford is to be commended for cutting their fixed costs in an effort to be more nimble... and thus able to be more customer-oriented... in a very competitive market place.

300Cs and Mustangs and Lexus RX330s sell... because the public wants them! May Ford be perceptive enough to build exciting cars... not appliances... that we'll all gladly wait in line for... then the VW forums can deal with this topic!

[dwasson]

Uhh, I think it should read, "A business exists to provide a valued product or service to the customer in order to earn sustainable profits.

No, a business exists to make money. A business that somehow could make money without custmores would be the perfect investment.

[Bluerauder]

Uhh, I think it should read, "A business exists to provide a valued product or service to the customer in order to earn sustainable profits."
I think that we are in violent agreement. :D However, I believe that if you focus first on the "profits" at the expense of any other part of the model, your business is doomed sooner or later. :rolleyes: You have to look at the whole model.

[FordNut]

I disagree. If that is a 1st tier objective, then it is a failed business model..
If providing value to investors is not a top objective of a company, why would anybody invest capital in it?

The following are strategies which should lead to good returns for investors. They are not the reason a company is in business. Ask any private business owner why he is in business and I'll bet making money is right up on top of the list.


A business exists to provide a valued product or service to the customer.
Quality employees assure the quality/value of the product or service.
Balanced pay and benefits retain quality and productive employees.
Quality/valued products and services generate repeat business and referrals.
More business stimulates growth.
Growth generates profits.
Part of the profits are used to reward investors and owners.
Part of the profits should also be invested in employees and capital assets.

The owners make money, the investors make money, the customers get what they want, and the employees are rewarded in proportion to their contribution. GROW or DIE !!!

Failure or misapplication of any area within the above chain can cause the model to break and the company to subsequently fail.
The last sentence is key. The model is broken. The growth part is not there.

At least the new leadership has the foresight to take action before the whole thing goes belly-up. Develop a new strategy because the current one isn't working. The production process is hosed up. Look at the system level efficiency of the Japanese refinement to the assembly line model. Instead of optimizing throughput, optimize tooling changeover time. That way retooling for producing different models on a common assembly line is quick and easy, not to mention retooling for new model changeovers. Look at focusing on a target market, thinking of the future: high efficiency cars are coming, and they will be the market leaders in the future when gas goes up some more. Don't think it will? We're still paying less for gas than it cost in Europe 30 years ago, just wait 'til we catch up. Focus on the customers, build what they want to buy rather than what you want to sell them. Reduce development time, get new models to market while customers still want them instead of taking so long they change their mind or find a substitute. Target foreign markets by producing at point-of-sale, just like the foreign manufacturers are doing here. With the rapid changes going on in the world market, it's more like ADAPT or DIE.

[TripleTransAm]

Usually we can never point to a single reason for anything; but I find it perplexing that our auto manufacturers, would relocate to Mexico while European and Asian manufacturers would come here to build cars. Why didn't they go to Mexico?

Some did. Quality suffered greatly, versus what was being done in the Homeland. Perhaps the benefits of assembly in the US (tariffs, etc.) outweighed any increase in assembly cost?

So why can foreign-owned/run manufacturers function well on US soil whereas US-owned manufacturers feel compelled to build in Mexico? Perhaps the management culture in foreign companies is not so profit-centered that it bites them in the long run.

Our beloved cars are a good example: the nature of some of the corner cutting is unreal, almost to silly proportions (with the amount of stuff on these cars that is carry-over, you'd think 90% of the car's sale price would be pure profit, yet by mid-2003 we said goodbye to seat map-pouches and a lousy in-dash digital clock, and yet similar priced cars from other companies can afford to throw in all sorts of nice gadgets). And don't get me started on parts quality (those of you who've seen vastly improved service life from over-the-counter replacement items will see how tight the belt was during the car's assembly).

[TripleTransAm]

Does this mean the end of Marauder-like vehicles from FoMoCo? Not necessarily, not if there are enough of us to make it onto Ford's corporate radar screen. My hopes are not incredibly high. We are outnumbered by the "appliance" buyers.


That is always the case. It's very rare when the high performance versions of an automobile outsell the 'pedestrian' ones and when that happens, it's usually a sign of impending doom (see 4th gen F-cars from GM). High performance vehicles are supposed to be loss-leaders, the eye-candy that gets you into the showroom. You might walk out with that vehicle, or you might find something else on the showroom that's a little more practical and affordable.

Again, our cars are a good example: no reason to believe our MMs couldn't be outstanding daily-drivers. But, for the price difference between a Grand Marquis and the initial Marauder MSRP, I'd have expected either a mind-blowing powertrain (S/C from the factory, exotic go-fast parts, etc.) or a razor-sharp focus on assembly and parts quality. Greed took over, and now it's time to pay the price.

[Bluerauder]

Perhaps the management culture in foreign companies is not so profit-centered that it bites them in the long run.

Our beloved cars are a good example: the nature of some of the corner cutting is unreal....
B-I-N-G-O !!! Last August during MV III, I heard that the profit margin on the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, and the Marauder was about $10,000 per car. That's 33% folks. Maybe that line was making up for other lines that weren't doing as good.... but the impact on me (the customer) was that I was gun shy of the MM's $35K sticker. At $29-30K they were still gonna make $4-5K on the car. So in my case, the quest for profits almost lost them a customer. Anyone think the "Friends and Family" discount is related similarly?

Unfortunately, in this discussion, there are 30,000 people looking at layoffs, lost jobs, and idled or closed plants. That's the sad part. Maybe a reasonable 10% profit could have made for better competition with the imports. Who knows??

[Meteorite]

Maybe a reasonable 10% profit could have made for better competition with the imports. Who knows??

No, because Ford is LOSING money on its cars that compete with imports.

[FordNut]

Unfortunately, in this discussion, there are 30,000 people looking at layoffs, lost jobs, and idled or closed plants. That's the sad part. Maybe a reasonable 10% profit could have made for better competition with the imports. Who knows??
I agree 100%. The vast majority are simply victims of circumstance and I sympathize.

[hitchhiker]

For what reason? Philanthropy? The best way for the American worker to guarantee he is "taken care of" is to outproduce his foreign competition, in terms of dollars-per-unit-of-productivity. That is not currently happening.:beatnik:

At 11 cents and hour!

Maybe if we had paid for health care and a subsidy like the wealthy just received in tax breaks we could afford to work for peanuts too!

:D

[hitchhiker]

No, a business exists to make money. A business that somehow could make money without custmores would be the perfect investment.

Economics and Business are not the same thing.

Employment exists due to specialization of labor and comparative advantage.

Business exists not only to make money but to facilitate trade and the distribution of resources.

There is such a concept as a reasonable profit.

Being a good citizen IS a requirement of a desirable business.

If a business is not good for the community then it is predatory and does not deserve the support of society.

Regards,

David

:D

[bigslim]

No flames intended here, and when you see the rest of my post, you'll understand why I asked.

Darryl, when you say you're supporting your brother's company, are you saying it's a sibling, or a union worker?

Also, I'm wondering if the Ford and Chrysler plants in Mexico are union shops. I had assumed they were not, but don't know.

That leads me to the next question(s).

Why did the American auto Mfg go to Mexico, in the first place?

To escape unions?
Lower hourly wages?
NAFTA pressure?
To escape environmental regulation?
Lower energy costs?
Incentives from the Mexican Govt?
Tariff reduction?
Flipped a coin?

Usually we can never point to a single reason for anything; but I find it perplexing that our auto manufacturers, would relocate to Mexico while European and Asian manufacturers would come here to build cars. Why didn't they go to Mexico?
I support my brother in two ways. One he is a union worker and a sibling. He buys from company and I bought from him. Especially since I could not get a Ford for what I Paid for the Chrysler.

Looking at your question, I think youn already answered your other question of why the manufactors are building in Mexico. I would have to also say that Asian car makers setup shop here to get people to think that they have done good by seting up shop here. People now believe that they are good for the country. It is all part of their ploy to reel in buyers. I must say that they know how to market themselves.

[RCSignals]

So here is what I cannot understand about the Ford Layoffs. Instead of closing plants in the US, why doesn’t Ford layoff employees in Canada and Mexico and keep it’s American employees working. IF somebody knows the answer, let me know.
:argue:

Ford started operation in the US in 1903. It started operation in Canda in 1904.

Why should it abandon it's Canadian operation? Ford has had loyal, family employess in both countries for over a century.

[bigslim]

I don’t care what anybody says, when it comes to a US product THE AMERICAN WORKER SHOULD BE TAKEN CARE OF FIRST. And Ford should be ashamed of themselves for not considering the American worker.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
:soap:
Our own buyers don't consider the American Workers. They all have the "I buy what I want" attitude. I can understand from a business side why Ford is doing what they are doing.

[bigslim]

I think this thread has run well over it's course. I will ask that it be closed now.

[MikesMerc]

So why can foreign-owned/run manufacturers function well on US soil whereas US-owned manufacturers feel compelled to build in Mexico? Perhaps the management culture in foreign companies is not so profit-centered that it bites them in the long run.


B-I-N-G-O !!! Last August during MV III, I heard that the profit margin on the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, and the Marauder was about $10,000 per car. That's 33% folks.



Nope, no BINGO here. Not even close.

If you folks think for a minute that the Japanese (or other far east car manufacturers) aren't completely and totally profit driven than you need to do more reading. These guys are CUT THROAT! They are 100% profit driven, all the time, every time.

Suppliers that don't supply and meet price points...bye bye.
Employees that don't meet attendence, production, or quality goals...bye bye.
Managers that don't meet performance goals....see ya!

There is NO consideration of the communities effected by plant locations or closings. Locations are simply chosen to best enhance the companys bottom line. Whether it be opening an assemlby plant in the USA (non union by the way) , to avoid import costs and placate the US govt, or open a plant in the south (again non union) to tap into a cheaper labor market, its all about the money.

Toyota just opened thier new truck plant in San Antonio...non union.

They have ZERO loyalty to employees. You either do the job or you are gone.

The reason the Japanese are successful is the exact opposite of what some of you are saying. Its the unwavering focus on continued, sustained, profitability. There are no unions to clutter the supply and demand of labor forces. The only community involvement you see is soley for PR purposes so that they sell more cars. I've yet to see a real philanthropic activity by any far east car company here in the USA.

Many on this thread drone on about doing the right thing, or taking care of civilization, or protecting the workers...but that's all hogwash. We have NEVER done that. The only reason anything has been done that remotely seems like "doing the right thing" is becasue it made someone, somewhere, some money...period. Sad but true.

I've also yet to read a single post from those worried about protecting US jobs just how exactly that is suppose to be done when foreign workers can do the same work for a fraction of the cost of US labor. Don't get me wrong, I'm sick over seeing this happen. My children will be effected by the US Auto industry going down. But, I am a realist, and its simply the forces of global competition causing it. Smaller, more nimble, more focussed (on profits), less costly operating companies will continue to eat our lunch.

We had these same discussions when we lost the steel industry. There is no cure. The best we can hope for is a "soft landing" that slows the decline of the auto industry and allows for a shift in our economic base away from manufacturing. Trying to hold onto a manufacturing base is a loosing propostion when there is someone half way around the world willing to do your job for cents on the dollar. Globally you just can't compete.

This is why I'd wish our government and business leaders would spend more time addressing education and high level skills than sit around and lament about the inevitable death of the US manufacturing base and waste time considering worthless trade protections.

[FordNut]

Our own buyers don't consider the American Workers. They all have the "I buy what I want" attitude.
In general I agree. I held out for many years on buying a new car. I wanted to buy American, specifically Ford. I almost gave up and got a BMW. Then came the Marauder, but even after its introduction I still almost gave up since the dealers in my area were trying to charge a premium on top of list. I'm glad I held out, I even bought another one.

As for the industry overall, I really sympathize. It's changing rapidly and dramatically, similar to the airline industry. My uncle draws a GM pension and his benefit was recently reduced.

I predict that many contract concessions will be coming about in the future. Workers in most industries even with union representation will stop seeing traditional retirement plans and will have to base their retirement on 401K savings plans, just like most of corporate America.

[FordNut]

This is why I'd wish our government and business leaders would spend more time addressing education and high level skills than sit around and lament about the inevitable death of the US manufacturing base and waste time considering worthless trade protections.
The sooner this happens the better. Why is so much engineering being done in India now? Because of their focus on education a decade ago. We've got to play catch-up in educating our next generation but it needs to be a top priority.

[Petrograde]

They have ZERO loyalty to employees. You either do the job or you are gone.



I work for a D.O.D. Contractor,... They have ^^ the same ^^ policy.

I hope we can fix all these problems, I don't wanna become a 3rd world country in the next 20 years.

BTW- has everyone noticed that this thread has been very well behaved? :P

[MikesMerc]

BTW- has everyone noticed that this thread has been very well behaved? :P

Yes. Its nice to see:) Not everyone agrees, but everyone has been respectful of one another. I think if we all met face to face there would be very little arguing going on regardless of topic.

[twolow]

Am I the only one who thinks its a tad amusing to see some here insist we buy "american" goods over imports when the car this site revolves around is Canadian?

My 350Z was at least put together in Canton, Mississippi.

[Bluerauder]

I think if we all met face to face there would be very little arguing going on regardless of topic.
I think several of us have already met and the only arguing was over who gets the last beer in the cooler or the primo parking spot under Barry's hotel window. :rofl:

[FordNut]

Am I the only one who thinks its a tad amusing to see some here insist we buy "american" goods over imports when the car this site revolves around is Canadian?
Probably... Since you're the only one who has brought it up.

[Mike Poore]

I think this thread has run well over it's course. I will ask that it be closed now.

Darryl, I hope it's not closed ...yet.

It's the first real in-depth discussion of any subject I've seen since I've been here, with good arguments, and points being made, without flames.
Some are asking questions because they don't know the answers, some are offering opinions based upon personal feelings and agendas, and some are offering data based on knowledge, education and experience. Obviously there are businessmen and insiders adding to this discussion, and I, for one am getting quite an education from it.

My one question still has not been answered.

That is why have US manufacturers moved to Mexico?

What is the hourly rate, not counting benefits of the US auto worker
What is the hourly rate, not counting benefits of the Mexican auto worker.
How do the benefit packages differ?
And MOSTLY, because it may be the most important question; are the Mexican auto workers union workers?

[Agent M79]

This might be a tangent, but I thought this was interesting: CLICK (http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/23/Autos/american_cars/index.htm?cnn=yes)

[Petrograde]

I think this thread has run well over it's course. I will ask that it be closed now.

why? 130+ posts and everyone is still acting civilized. I hope it's a trend!

[Smokie]

Our steel industry is all but history, here is more history. We don't make television sets, microwave ovens, vcr's, dvd players, cameras, toys, almost all small electrical appliances are made elsewhere, major home appliances are under attack by Korean companies.

The Roman Empire lasted about 500 years, the US less than half that time, like the Roman Empire we are collapsing from within, decaying is the more accurate word. Americans have never been very good at learning from history and we have "very short memories".

The reason we our losing our industrial base is very simple; Americans don't care who made it or where it was made, there are not enough Americans left in this country that will refuse to buy a car unless it was made by Ford, GM or Chrysler.

I am not putting down those people that buy cars made by non-american companies, all I'm saying is we are going down...don't cry when we hit bottom just say sayonara!

[hitchhiker]

why? 130+ posts and everyone is still acting civilized. I hope it's a trend!

I do too.

This site proves once again that it has class!

Regards,

David

:D

[gpfarrell]

I think that we are in violent agreement. :D However, I believe that if you focus first on the "profits" at the expense of any other part of the model, your business is doomed sooner or later. :rolleyes: You have to look at the whole model.

Violent agreement... that's poetic... I love it! :)

You do have to look at the whole model... many domestic corporations have become slaves to their quarterly numbers... that's why some bean counter stole our damn map pockets... it helped profits that fiscal quarter. Many foreign companies run on 100 year business plans... and its starting to show. Ironically, it's government regulation forcing our companies to regularly reveal profits... and the same regs discourage them from making longer-term predictions. The more we try to protect ourselves, the more we get hurt.

[gpfarrell]

No, a business exists to make money. A business that somehow could make money without custmores would be the perfect investment.

Yeah, and cars can run on water instead of gasoline.

The customer is part of the business. Growing businesses tend to have happy customers... they are the source of the profits.

[FordNut]

...many domestic corporations have become slaves to their quarterly numbers....
So true. The ruination of many companies comes about with the IPO.



Ironically, it's government regulation forcing our companies to regularly reveal profits... and the same regs discourage them from making longer-term predictions. The more we try to protect ourselves, the more we get hurt.
Complying with the never-ending expansion of regulatory requirements is a huge expense that comes out of profits, too. Sarbanes-Oxley created a bureaucratic nightmare. Best thing that could happen would be private firms choosing to stay private in order to avoid the red tape. Then a more reasonable approach to long-term goals could come about.

[STLR FN]

Wow I'm relearning a great deal in this thread. Test on Friday.

[jerrym3]

About three years ago, my company, a Wall Street name you would recognize easily, was purchased by a foreign bank. Slowly but surely, some "staff adjustments" are being made to "make better use of our excellant work force".

Well, I'm sure that those who lost their jobs received something, probably not a great deal, but something.

At the three year mark of the purchase, the senior executives of the original company announced that they were leaving. Obviously, there must have been a "you must remain for three years to get your golden parachute" clause somewhere.

I wonder if they would have pushed for the sale had there not been a golden parachute? (Duh!)

Senior corporate execs, entertainers, sports figures-the new royalty.

Maybe if Ford had cut back on exec pay/bonuses/etc, they would have had enough money to update their truck/SUV line AND their car line.

[Mike Poore]

why have US manufacturers moved to Mexico?

What is the hourly rate, not counting benefits of the US auto worker
What is the hourly rate, not counting benefits of the Mexican auto worker.
How do the benefit packages differ?
And MOSTLY, because it may be the most important question; are the Mexican auto workers union workers?

Does anyone know the answer(s) to the above question(s)?

[Smokie]

Does anyone know the answer(s) to the above question(s)?

Maybe opening factories in Mexico, will help to create a middle class in a country that virtually has none and slow down the tide of illegal immigration.

I consider the above statement a side effect, The car manufacturer does it to escape unions, medical cost and retirement benefit packages.

[dwasson]

Let's get to the point. What laws would you like to see inacted to fix this problem? Saying, "People should buy more american cars" doesn't count. The fastest way to influence the behavior of a large number of people is by law or tax policy.

What are you willing to do and, how do you justify the interference with other people's decisions?

[MikesMerc]

Does anyone know the answer(s) to the above question(s)?

I work with a medium sized, privately held, trucking company that specializes in international shipments of automotive freight. We concentrate on our "lanes" which run between southern Ontario, down through the middle US, through south Texas, and into Mexico. Our only point of entry into Canada is the Detroit/Windor crossings. We have 5 terminals on the Mexican border where we cross in and out of Mexico (Laredo, Eagle Pass, El Paso, Harlingen, and Nogalez), where the frieght ends up in various automotive spots in Mexico like Hermisillo, Mexico City, Monterrey, Quertaro, etc, etc. We can pick up and delivery at any points up and down the lane, but we specialize in cross border work.

I'll tell you all this so you can understand the quality of my responses and decide whether I have any real clue on what happens in Mexico.

Why have US manufacturers moved to Mexico?

Its simply cheaper to do business there. For many reasons. The most significant being labor costs. However, other reduced costs include less stringent governement regulations (safety, environemental,etc), cheaper capital intensive expenditures (buildings), and significant tax breaks.

Additionally important, is the fact that product can, and does, move accross the border easily. This is important as transportation costs do not eat away at the cost advantages of manufacturing in mexico (as it does with over seas relocations).

What is the hourly rate, not counting benefits of the US auto worker

Fully abosorbed with benefits pegs the estimate at $65 hour. Considering an hourly rate not fully absorbed would not be informative.

What is the hourly rate, not counting benefits of the Mexican auto worker

Fully absorbed with all benefits pegs the estimate at $40. The spread would be greater, but in mexico the payroll taxes are much higher than in the USA. They also have things like mandatory vacation pay, mandatory severance pay, and other items that drive payroll costs up.

How do the benefit packages differ?

Night and day. The thing to remember is the Mexico is very socialisitc and many benefits are dictated by law regardless of industry. There is also national health care. So, most auto workers in mexico get vacation and severance pay based on Mexican law. They get supplemental health to beef up the crappy national coverage. And they get a defined contribution retirement package (not a defined benefit package like the old pension plans. Defined benefits plans guarantee a defined benefit at reitrement. Defined contribution plans define the contribution rate, but the benefit at retirement is what it is based on what has accumulated).

In general, the mexican government picks up more of the tab on the benefits side of things. However, even the best health plan is crappy compared to even the most basic US health plans (lots and lots of waiting in line for medical treatment in mex). Same goes for retirement. You get your mexican "social security" and a meager contribution to a retirment plan (assuming you work for a company that offers one). If you want a comfortable retirement in Mexco, you need to save for it yourself.

And MOSTLY, because it may be the most important question; are the Mexican auto workers union workers?

Nope. Two reasons why.

1) unemployement is VERY high. If you don't like what you are being paid, there are 10 other people behind you willing to do it for even less. Its tough for unions to get a foot hold in this type of environment.

2) The rather socialistic governement that provides national health care (even though it sucks), and mandatory worker benefits.

Bottom line its simply cheaper to do business in mexico because it is still 3rd world. It shouldn't be by now, but they have had so much government corruption and poor national economic policy, that their economy never really gets going.

[jerrym3]

It wouldn't hurt to offer a superior product.

I'm a Ford driver, but the other day I drove a friend's Lexus ES300 (I believe). At a light, if I didn't see the tach registering RPMs, I would not have known that the car was running.

At idle, my 2004 Lincoln LS is quiet, but not that quiet.

Why can't our auto companies match the best warranty plans of some other companies? My 2004 LS has a four year warranty, but my more expensive 2003 TBird only had three years.

It's like an admission of "expect problems after the warranty period".

[hitchhiker]

It wouldn't hurt to offer a superior product.

I'm a Ford driver, but the other day I drove a friend's Lexus ES300 (I believe). At a light, if I didn't see the tach registering RPMs, I would not have known that the car was running.

At idle, my 2004 Lincoln LS is quiet, but not that quiet.

Why can't our auto companies match the best warranty plans of some other companies? My 2004 LS has a four year warranty, but my more expensive 2003 TBird only had three years.

It's like an admission of "expect problems after the warranty period".

I don't care about quite; I care about GO!

:D

[Dragcity]

Great discussion everyone. I think we should link this to all major manufacturing companies and or Governement. If this thread is not a cross section of the American people, I don't know what is.

As for the comments about Canada, Canada and it's citizens are our Brothers and Sisters. I truely believe they are. I never feel as they take anything from, only add to the diversity and structure of North America as a whole. I only hope Canada feels the same, I don't know how they feel about we pompus Americans....

I feel the comments about why a company exists are very interesting. The entire spectrum has been discussed. I suppose a the answer encompasses all the mentioned criteria. I do believe a compnay owes its support and dedication to its workforce. Would you want to be the owner or director of a company whos workforce badmouths you? How does THAT effect sales and public image? It is indeed a difficult position, as I'm sure many of our members know first hand. I am a believer in selling your employees first, make them happy, proud and productive, and your business will flouorish. I am, not so naive to think this is all that's needed, but it is where the fire starts...

Yes, a company truely does need to be profitable to stay in business, no question. Are investors ALWAYS needed. No, I don't think they are. They are needed to raise capital for expansion, but there still needs to be a balance between debt and equity within the company. A company like Ford/GM should not need a whole lot of external support. Notice I said "should". Goes back to what I say about top execta and board members. They take way too much money out of where it belongs, in the company.

Workers in this country have given their blood, sweat and tears to the development of top-notch manufacturing, infrastructure building and the like. I know dedication to the employer has all but gone away, but I truely believe the Employer gave up on the Employee first. Dedication goes a long way in all that we human being do. Back in the mid-late '80s when Joe corporation said, "sorry Johnny worker, but your job is no longer in the budget. You have always done a great job for us, and your a great guy. I'm sure you'll land on your feet. Good Luck" .... That has escalated into mass layoffs and that downward spiral of dedication and support.

About the customers buying power...If everyone gets laid off, who's left to buy stuff. And those who got laid off from ACME company, are likely not going to buy from there. They will search out another supplier, you think?

Some company is going to make stuff to sell to us confused Americans. What ever happened to that old saying, "Of the People, For the People"

I also want to say I really enjoy the great level of thought and personal feelings/experience that has been put into this discussion. Thanks for a very interesting read....

[Bluerauder]

What is the hourly rate, not counting benefits of the US auto worker

Fully absorbed with benefits pegs the estimate at $65 hour. Considering an hourly rate not fully absorbed would not be informative.

What is the hourly rate, not counting benefits of the Mexican auto worker

Fully absorbed with all benefits pegs the estimate at $40. The spread would be greater, but in mexico the payroll taxes are much higher than in the USA. They also have things like mandatory vacation pay, mandatory severance pay, and other items that drive payroll costs up.
That is surprising. I would have guessed and even larger differential between the two salary levels. But even so, 40% cheaper is still alot. :rolleyes:

BTW --- in my business, we don't call it "fully absorbed". The term we use is "loaded" (i.e. the rate includes fringe benefits, G&A, overhead and profits).

[MikesMerc]

That is surprising. I would have guessed and even larger differential between the two salary levels. But even so, 40% cheaper is still alot. :rolleyes:

BTW --- in my business, we don't call it "fully absorbed". The term we use is "loaded" (i.e. the rate includes fringe benefits, G&A, overhead and profits).

If you took a look at what the Mexican worker brings home compared to the US worker, the spread is indeed much greater. Payroll taxes are enormous is Mexico and push the total number higher.

BTW, I use "fully abosrbed with benefits" as a very specific term to discuss payroll costs. It doesn't mean the traditional "fully abosrbed" which, when used by itself, includes all variable and fixed overhead. Loaded is a term I see when building up labor charges to outside parties (ei staffing company). I could be wrong there though. Point is, the rates i quoted above are just rough averages, and that they do NOT included any overhead at all. Just wages, payroll taxes, employee insurances, and other benefits.

[Mike Poore]

Good god, and to think someone wanted to shut this thread down. :rolleyes:

I'll say it again; this is the best, most informative, and interesting thread since I've joined the board. Keep going guys there's lots more to examine/explain. I wish more of you heavyweights/insiders would jump in. This is big time education city, and it's all free .....all we have to do is keep an open mind, and listen.:D

BTW, have you noticed the phenomenal number of views, for the short time this thread has been posted?

[Dragcity]

I wasn't kidding when I wrote this thread should be veiwed by others than ourselves. It really gives a great representation of the true feelings of (I believe) America.

[Bluerauder]

If you took a look at what the Mexican worker brings home compared to the US worker, the spread is indeed much greater. Payroll taxes are enormous is Mexico and push the total number higher.
OK ... here's a numbers game using the figures you provided and some other info & assumptions on my own.

Marauder was MSRP'd at $35K
Mentioned Profit 10K

Net cost of the Marauder was $25K. Assuming that 50% of this cost is in materials, parts, etc. then labor is $12,500 of the car. In the US (and I'll assume Canada as well), that means about 192 hours goes into each Marauder.

Also assuming equal productivity, Mexicans laborers can do that same 192 hours of work for $7,680. In other words, they can sell the car for some $4,820 less and still walk away with some sizeable profits.

I find it quite interesting that it took about that same $5,000 to put the Marauder in my desired price range of $29-30K. Quite interesting !!! :D

[Dr Caleb]

Am I the only one who thinks its a tad amusing to see some here insist we buy "american" goods over imports when the car this site revolves around is Canadian?

One man's 'import' is another man's 'domestic' :)



As for the comments about Canada, Canada and it's citizens are our Brothers and Sisters. I truely believe they are. I never feel as they take anything from, only add to the diversity and structure of North America as a whole. I only hope Canada feels the same, I don't know how they feel about we pompus Americans.

Thanks for that. While I can't speak for all Canadians, just let me say: We do feel the same. While we know there are some 'Pompus Yanks', we also know there are some flaming arsehole Canucks too. I haven't met ethier type on this board.

[twolow]

Thanks for that. While I can't speak for all Canadians, just let me say: We do feel the same. While we know there are some 'Pompus Yanks', we also know there are some flaming arsehole Canucks too. I haven't met ethier type on this board.

Do you guys have nukes up there?

[TripleTransAm]

Marauder was MSRP'd at $35K
Mentioned Profit 10K

Net cost of the Marauder was $25K.


Was that 10k net profit based on the inflated MSRP? I mention this because it's been said on here that the initial target price was much lower and someone overruled it and demanded the MSRP be adjusted upwards to the 35k level.

Also, I'm thinking the 10k profit is based on what the cars were sold to the dealers at. Otherwise, it's dealer profit, not Ford profit, and I doubt the mother company would really pay attention to those figures. I'm assuming we should use the flat dealer invoice price, since rebates only serve to take away from that 10k profit that the mother company would be making.

I'm also quite impressed at how civil this thread has remained. Perhaps this simply proves that in the greater scheme of things, supercharger choice and pecking order on a timeslip database just doesn't matter in the end.

[Bluerauder]

Was that 10k net profit based on the inflated MSRP?
This was my understanding. Of course, I may have interpreted it incorrectly.

As a consumer/customer, I really don't care how the profit is sorted out between the manufacturer and the dealer. It is irrelevant to me and the price that I pay (or negotiate). My sole point was to put some numbers (albeit based on some assumptions) to the problem of off-shore manufacture.

My example (if you buy into the theory) indicates that Mexican auto plants could theoretically have built the Marauder for some $4,820 less than similar plants in the US or Canada. In order to compete based on price ... there are few options available.

1. Eat some of the costs in lower profits. That is, be satisfied with $5,180 in profits instead of the full $10K. Reduce the dealers share, reduce the manufacturers share, reduce the owner/investor share. Taking a 50% hit on profits may not be an option if some or all of it is covering for losses in other product lines.

2. Close product lines that are losing money so that the less available profit is spread further over the more viable product lines.

3. Improve US/Canadian productivity (i.e. shorten the 192 hours). From what I saw at the Rouge Plant, I doubt that much could really be achieved in this area.

4. Lower the Labor Rate by cutting salaries, trimming benefits, eliminating or streamlining overhead and administrative (where those CEO golden parachutes are) costs. Or decreasing the burden of operation & maintenance of older plants and activities.

5. Use or get cheaper materials for your products (this could backfire).

There may be others; but in this simplistic view ... these are the obvious avenues to find another $4,820 savings per car. In my view, it is unlikely that any one area above could sustain the full impact ... so it is likely that a combination may be the right solution.

This is a very complex problem to solve and if any of the area above are deemed "immovable", it places additional strain on the remaining options.

I agree that this thread has caused me to think more fully about this problem than I ever have before ... so it was also an opportunity for me to learn too !! :D

[dwasson]

OK ... here's a numbers game using the figures you provided and some other info & assumptions on my own.

Marauder was MSRP'd at $35K
Mentioned Profit 10K

Net cost of the Marauder was $25K. Assuming that 50% of this cost is in materials, parts, etc. then labor is $12,500 of the car. In the US (and I'll assume Canada as well), that means about 192 hours goes into each Marauder.

Also assuming equal productivity, Mexicans laborers can do that same 192 hours of work for $7,680. In other words, they can sell the car for some $4,820 less and still walk away with some sizeable profits.

I find it quite interesting that it took about that same $5,000 to put the Marauder in my desired price range of $29-30K. Quite interesting !!! :D

The story of how the Marauder was priced illustrates a major problem the US manufacturers have. The stcker price for most cars bear little relationship to what most people pay.

When a new model is introduced, the smart money says, wait a few months until they pay you to buy it. There are very few domestic cars that don't have incentives. It costs a fortune to sell cars that way. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just cut the price?

[de minimus]

Do you guys have nukes up there?

Nope, not allowed.

[bigslim]

I just recieved a card from Ford that went to all of it's employeess. It is asking ideas to help the company. Also in the that card was info that show some of the support that Ford has maid to various things. You ask why we should buy American cars, this is why:

1. Donated $6 million dollars to the victims of Katrina and sent mobile Incident Communications centers to serve as local Sheriff's offices and donated the use of 275 vehicles to military relief teams.

2. The Ford Fund donated nearly $80 million dollars to the United Way, American Red Cross, Hispanic Scholarship Fund, United Negro College Fund, the Susan G. Komen Breast Cancer Foundation and many more.

3. 80 year association with the Disabled American Veterans, donating thousands of cars, trucks and vans, specially designed to help those who protected our freedom.

There are so many other ways that these American car makers help our communities. This is something I have been saying all along. Can Honda, Nissan and Toyota say the same.

The question has been asked "Why should I buy an American car". This is why.

[dwasson]

There are so many other ways that these American car makers help our communities. This is something I have been saying all along. Can Honda, Nissan and Toyota say the same.

The question has been asked "Why should I buy an American car". This is why.

From Honda.com

American Honda Pledges $5 Million for Hurricane Relief

Update – September 28, 2005 – In response to further destruction in the Gulf Region caused by Hurricane Rita, American Honda has requested to the American Red Cross (ARC) that the company's $5 million assistance pledge be utilized for general hurricane disaster relief, addressing the needs of those affected by Hurricanes Katrina and Rita.

At the same time, American Honda continues to coordinate with the ARC and local, state, and federal relief agencies to determine the need for Honda material support, including portable generators, water pumps, all-terrain vehicles, personal watercraft, off-road motorcycles, and passenger vehicles, in the affected areas. In addition, American Honda Finance Corporation's (AHFC) Disaster Relief Program has been extended to cover families affected by Hurricane Rita.


September 2, 2005 – In the wake of the devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina, American Honda today announced a pledge of $5 million to the American Red Cross - Disaster Relief Fund. This contribution from the Honda family of companies, its associates, and dealers includes direct corporate contributions and special employee matching gift programs. Honda also is making available portable generators, water pumps, all terrain vehicles, personal watercraft, off-road motorcycles, and vehicles to agencies working in the affected areas.

American Honda has been in close communication with the American Red Cross (ARC) and the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to provide support for relief efforts in the devastating aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. The ARC already has at its disposal twenty 12,000-watt Honda generators for use at emergency relief centers around the country. These generators are maintained through annual corporate contributions from American Honda.

Since both the ARC and FEMA have emphasized that the greatest current need is funding to support on-site emergency response teams, on August 31, 2005 American Honda implemented a special corporate matching gift program for its associates, contractors, temporary employees and retirees who would like to make a personal donation to the Hurricane Katrina relief efforts. The company will match donations made by Honda personnel to the American Red Cross - Disaster Relief Fund on a dollar-for-dollar basis with no total limit to contributions. Donations made to the Disaster Relief Fund provide food, clothing, shelter, and other basic necessities to those forced from their homes.

American Honda Finance Corporation (AHFC) also has initiated its Disaster Relief Program that provides payment extensions and other accommodations to customers affected by this tragedy. Every effort is being made to provide assistance to AHFC customers.

The effort to provide support includes the efforts of many different Honda operations. For example:
Honda Manufacturing of Alabama in Lincoln, Ala., has responded with a corporate contribution to the ARC Disaster Relief Fund and is standing by as requested to provide additional support.
Honda of America Mfg. in Marysville, Ohio, is matching associate contributions under an annual program to local United Way agencies, some of which are providing resources to assist in the relief effort.
AHFC offices in Atlanta, Ga. and Dallas, Texas are helping to provide food and other support to local charities that are accepting evacuees from the disaster areas, and AHFC corporate contributions are also being made to these charitable organizations.
American Honda will continue to work with the ARC and FEMA to determine any future need for Honda products.

[dwasson]

From Toyota.com

Toyota Contributions to Hurricane Relief Top $7.5 Million


September 28, 2005 - New York, NY Toyota companies today announced additional support for victims of the Gulf Coast hurricanes. To date, 2005 hurricane relief pledges from Toyota and its 38,000 employees in North America exceed $7.5 million, including in-kind donations.

Toyota's efforts toward hurricane relief include:
• More than $6.5 million in corporate contributions, the majority of which went to the American Red Cross
• A total of $800,000 in company-matched employee donations
• A donation of five Hino trucks, worth an estimated $200,000, to the American Red Cross
• Return transportation for a team of medical personnel who were assisting in American Red Cross relief efforts
• Assistance by Toyota Financial Services and Lexus Financial Services to affected customers including a 90-day extension on payments and suspension of credit bureau reporting and collection
• Shipment of supplies, food and clothing donated by Toyota employees across North America

To stimulate further giving, employee contributions to the American Red Cross and other relief organizations will be extended through the end of October.

Toyota established operations in the US in 1957 and currently operates eight US manufacturing plants, with two more under construction. There are over 1,400 Toyota, Lexus and Scion dealerships located in 50 US states. Selling over 2 million vehicles in the US in 2004, Toyota has a direct US investment of over $13 billion and direct US employment of over 31,000. According to a 2005 Center for Automotive Research study, Toyota, along with its dealers and suppliers, has generated over 386,000 U.S. jobs - including jobs created through spending by direct, dealer and supplier employees.

[TripleTransAm]

Question about the foreign owned assembly plants on US soil:

how does their union-management relationship compare with those of the domestics? What is the frequency of striking as compared to GM, Ford or Chrysler plants?

[RCSignals]

Question about the foreign owned assembly plants on US soil:

how does their union-management relationship compare with those of the domestics? What is the frequency of striking as compared to GM, Ford or Chrysler plants?

Most of them aren't unionised. Unless something has changed, I don't think any of the Japanese ones are Union.

'Chrysler' is foreign owned.

[RCSignals]

Nope, not allowed.


that's what it is wanted for you to think. Canadian Fighter jets tasked with intercept duty were still armed with air to air Nuclear missiles at least up until the fall of the USSR.

[TripleTransAm]

Doesn't US legislation force the employer to allow the workforce to install a union if they desire?

Chrysler is foreign-owned, but locally managed to some degree (most likely more than the wholly foreign companies with local management branches, even though I understand Benz is calling the big shots).

[dwasson]

Doesn't US legislation force the employer to allow the workforce to install a union if they desire?

The unions have not convinced the majority of the workers that they would benefit from a union.

[RCSignals]

Am I the only one who thinks its a tad amusing to see some here insist we buy "american" goods over imports when the car this site revolves around is Canadian?

My 350Z was at least put together in Canton, Mississippi.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24304&page=9

Read my post above. Also, Ford vehicles built in Canada are built by Ford Motor Company, the same Ford Motor Company that builds vehicles in the US.

Can you say your 350Z was built by an Amercan Company?

[RCSignals]

Doesn't US legislation force the employer to allow the workforce to install a union if they desire?

Chrysler is foreign-owned, but locally managed to some degree (most likely more than the wholly foreign companies with local management branches, even though I understand Benz is calling the big shots).

"if they desire" The procedure is not too different from the procedure in Canada.



You could also say Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc are "foreign-owned, but locally managed to some degree".

[dwasson]

The Honda Accord coupes sold in Japan are made in Ohio.

[bigslim]

The unions have not convinced the majority of the workers that they would benefit from a union.
And the reason that is is because the Asian makers setup shop in depressed and poorer areas. This gives the opportunity to people to make more money then they ever have. They don't know any better. This is why they are located in more rural areas. Before they had these plants they had no other means to make the money they are making now.

They don't know that when their plants get older and the company wants to shut down they have no security what so ever. At least we have sub pay benefits to help with a transition.

They don't know that when their product has run it's course it will shut down. Where do they go then? Do they have bumping rights to another plant? NO.

They don't know that they don't have to do unsafe jobs. They are not threatened with the "If you don't do it you will be fired" attitude. we have union safety reps that make sure we don't put ourselves in harms way. Would I climb up on crane or enter into a machine without my safety equipment because I have no union and some boss told me to do it? NO! But they would because they have no choice.

It is ture that the union has tried to setup shop in these plants. It is true that they have been unsuccessful do this. What I see happening is when the blue sky falls in these "Happy Workers" plants they will then come screaming for the union. When their plants close and they have no benefits then they are going to want the union. When Toyota builds another plant in the area and closes the older plants and the older employees can't bump into the new plant because there are no bummping rights then they will cry for a union. When the work force gets old and they are not needed and see they are being replaced by younger workers then they will want a union. When they start to make too much money and new workers can do the job for a cheaper rate in a newer plant they will want a union. Yeh, everyone thinks the union is bad until they need them.


You guys keep thinking what you want to. I know the answers to all of this. I live it everyday. I am really tired of the whole domestic-foreign thing. I am tired of the whole union-nonunion thing. You guys do what you want. I am out of here.

I AM A PROUD UNION WORKER!! THINK WHAT YOU WILL ABOUT ME! IT IS THE UNION THAT KEEPS THIS COUNTRY GOING! WE BUILT THIS COUNTRY!

[de minimus]

This is really quite an informative and interesting thread on a quite serious issue. I for one always try to buy products made in North America. My MM is my fifth Ford in a row - my experiences with Ford have always been positive in terms of service, quality and the product itself. My brother, who knows nil about cars swears by his Toyota trucks, yet his trucks have been in the shop more often and more expensively than my Fords. A scientific comparison? Perhaps not. When I suggested to my brother that he replace his Toyota truck with a F-150, his response was that the Toyota was better built, more reliable and more fuel efficient. All of his arguments I could debate, but the point is he believes them to be true. Until Ford and the other North American manufacturers can convince Americans and Canadians that they can build a vehicle equal or better to the imports, they will continue to lose market share. To blame unions or executive salaries for Fords problems is, with respect simplistic.

[de minimus]

that's what it is wanted for you to think. Canadian Fighter jets tasked with intercept duty were still armed with air to air Nuclear missiles at least up until the fall of the USSR.

In the pre-Trudeau years with the Voodoos perhaps, but not after. Trudeau wasn't a fan.

[TooManyFords]

And the reason that is is because the Asian makers setup shop in depressed and poorer areas. This gives the opportunity to people to make more money then they ever have. They don't know any better. This is why they are located in more rural areas. Before they had these plants they had no other means to make the money they are making now.

To me, that sounds like economic development at the highest levels! Let me say the same thing in another way:


"Hmmm, I had a crappy job or no job at all in a rundown area and now I work for more money that GOD and the area built this fantastic factory right here because they believe in us! I'm sure glad I don't know any better!"

I won't quote the rest of your union dribble because it is just like investing in stocks... "the following statements are to be considered 'forward looking' and may or may not represent the result of yada yada yada..."

Sounds exactly like couch racing, "I'm sure it will go low 11's in the cool weather". Yeah, no slip to prove that either.

I am not impressed.

John

[twolow]

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24304&page=9

Read my post above. Also, Ford vehicles built in Canada are built by Ford Motor Company, the same Ford Motor Company that builds vehicles in the US.

Can you say your 350Z was built by an Amercan Company?

But I'm supporting American jobs by buying the 350z, the MM is not keeping American plants and jobs going...true?

[Dr Caleb]

that's what it is wanted for you to think. Canadian Fighter jets tasked with intercept duty were still armed with air to air Nuclear missiles at least up until the fall of the USSR.

Exactally. Keep the Plutonium in one place, the detonators in another. They aren't 'bombs' without detonators. From what I've heard, this is still the common practice.

[Dr Caleb]

But I'm supporting American jobs by buying the 350z, the MM is not keeping American plants and jobs going...true?

Coincidence is not causality. People not buying enough Fords, for whatever reason (percieved quality etc.) is what's closing US plants. Buying a 350z is one sale Ford didnt get.

The St. Thomas plant has already lost 2 shifts due to low sales of the CV/CVPI/GM. I find it ironic that 'slow sales' of the CV are one reason for the plant closure, but the CV is not for sale in Canada, except as a fleet vehicle. The only reason St. Thomas is keeping that one shift, is because payroll costs are lower because of our healthcare system. One Canadian plant that is closing is the Windsor engine plant.

[dwasson]

I'm disappointed. About 24 hours ago I asked for ideas from y'all about how to fix this. Nobody has offered any concrete suggestions. I think that this illustrates that the problem is very complex and not likely to be solved by shouting "Buy American" at everyone.

I've been out of work for a while. I know that being out of work is a terrible thing. The possibility of losing your job can knock the foundations from under your confidence. But I also know that, while there may be some external forces at work here, my condition is mostly the result of my decisions. If my wife was willing, I would be out of Michigan in a heartbeat. My unemployment is nobody's fault but mine.

Now, accepting that the cause of your condition is the guy you see in your drivers license picture, is a frightening, but invigorating, thing. It focuses your mind on the serious things. It causes you to do something instead of sitting like a deer in the headlights.

In a global economy, it is incumbent on all of us to pay attention to the changes in the market. I'm 49, I've known since 1974 that the auto industry was not where the future was. I went to school to stay out of the auto industry. In the absense of my wife's willingness to move from Detroit, I need to once again change careers. Like a surfer, I need to step off this wave onto another.

This I will do.

Back to the problem with the auto companies. Most of the ideas I have to fix the auto companies would be to change the tax code. Extending the depreciation schedule for capitol equipment would encourage the factories to update equipment and become even more productive. There could be a tax break for re-educating employees. What about encouraging research partnerships with local universities? The tax code could encourage these things.

There are a lot of you who want to see punitive taxes placed on corporations, not tax breaks. But I can guarantee that if you make the auto companies a worse investment there will be less investment. And less investment means a weaker company and job losses.

Are you willing to get past your anger and fear and move on with your lives?

[Bluerauder]

I'm disappointed. About 24 hours ago I asked for ideas from y'all about how to fix this. Nobody has offered any concrete suggestions.
Not "exactly" true ... go back and reread post #159. I provided a list of possible solutions. Do you want specific numbers?? :rolleyes:

[dwasson]

Not "exactly" true ... go back and reread post #159. I provided a list of possible solutions. Do you want specific numbers?? :rolleyes:

My mistake, you certainly had some valid ideas. I was thinking more of government inputs,as many seem to want "somebody to do something".

[Dragcity]

I think we are doing something. We have opened up a very positive discussion. You are absolutely correct in your statement this is a complex problem. Very complex indeed.

Are you willing to get past your anger and fear and move on with your lives?

Not sure where this statement came from or is going. I think this thread has proven that we may be angry, but are discussing it, and really do want to contribute to a feasable resolution. As for fear, if we are not afraid of this decline in North American production, we are fooling ourselves. In my opinion, we should be afraid. If we simply ignore it and 'move on with our lives', we will soon all be working at Wendys or working for a call center for the next big Korean or Indian company. (I don't think I can learn Korean).

There is an answer to the problems and roadblocks that are putting us at a disadvantage. I think we have hit on most all of them. We as a people/country/continent need to have the guts to wake up and try a new approach. Maybe the 'NEW' Ford will pony up....

I know we can't truely solve these issues right here and now, but it's a good start. Getting everyones ideas and true feeling help us all in our future endevors. I know there are some business owners and executives on this site, maybe we have shed some light on unspoken issues.

Big Slim, if you're out there, don't bow out. You have great points. I for one respect your opinions and positions on Unions. I agree that they are needed in many situations. Just like Management, Unions need to exercise restraint. I belive it to be a good checks and balances system for the workforce. Non-union shops would not have very good working conditions had it not been FOR the unions. I hope everyone realizes that. Even office workers would have deplorable conditions.

I think "balance" is the right word...

[jerrym3]

Read today's USAToday on line. There's a write up on the new Buick Lucerne that's very positive. Article even throws a few rocks at the leaders of the pack.

I thought that the Buick line had a pretty decent style to it, but from the looks of the Lucerne (from the rear), they've given in to the crowd.

Maybe a short term fix would be to extend the warranty period of American cars. Sure, some cars will have problems and be a money loser to the manufacturer, but if their products are good, most cars should continue to run just fine.

It would also be great advertizing.

Would you rather save a few dollars up front or drive for X trouble free years?

[Dr Caleb]

Maybe a short term fix would be to extend the warranty period of American cars.

Would you rather save a few dollars up front or drive for X trouble free years?

I think that is a perfect example of why people percieve asian built cars as more reliable. My G/F bought a Kia because she believed it was more reliable, after all, it came with a 10 year warranty, right?

But she's finding out now, that the fine print says that after 3 years, anything that causes the 'check engine' light to come on is not covered under warranty. A bad/burnt headlight causes the 'check engine' light to come on.

[dwasson]

Maybe a short term fix would be to extend the warranty period of American cars. Sure, some cars will have problems and be a money loser to the manufacturer, but if their products are good, most cars should continue to run just fine.

It would also be great advertizing.

Would you rather save a few dollars up front or drive for X trouble free years?

I bought a Kia Sedona and have been very happy with it. I was looking for a minivan at a time when the Total Cost of Ownership was a primary motivation. It is good to know what a car will cost you over time. Extending the warranty is the best way to show the customer that they won't get beat up by repair costs.

One of the German cars (Audi?) even offered 2 years free maintainance, including oil changes. The car companies are asking for a large amount of money. They need to reassure the customer a little.

[RCSignals]

In the pre-Trudeau years with the Voodoos perhaps, but not after. Trudeau wasn't a fan.


This off topic, so I apologise.

But definitely after Trudeau, as I said at least up until the fall of the USSR. The Candian public were led to believe otherwise. Part of the Trudeau truth.
Voodoos were in service into the '80s when the CF-18 came on line.

[1 Bad Merc]

I think what alot of people are missing here is that Ford, GM and Daimler Chrysler do not consider themselves "American Companies"! They are now pushing themselves as "Global companies" and as such will do whatever it takes to continue to make their profits. They dont care about the average American working man and only worry about where they can buy/make stuff cheap and sell for a decent profit. Most Americans are very confused when it comes to this new terminalogy as they figure that these companies should put America first but that is not the way the companies look at it. If they can hire cheap labor in Indonesia they will do it. If they can buy raw steel from China they do it! If they can import some computer analysts from India-pay them half what an American makes- they do it!

The only reason these company HQ's are still here in America is because we still have a high standard of living. As soon as this falls, don't be surprised if we see some corporate HQ's moving to new countries in different parts of the world. We have basically sold the American workers right down the drain. Through PACS, Corporate lobbyists, Government, Etc. we have allowed these companies to do whatever they want in their own best interests.

When people look at me and ask, "Who is to blame for this mess"? I tell them to look straight in the mirror and say "Hello". We are responsible by our continued voting in of our current crop of elected carrier political officials who could not give a dam about us.

I guess I will get off the Soapbox now but being in the International Import/Export business I have seen the first hand effects of Globalization and the bleeding of our manufacturing base.

:(

[dwasson]

This off topic, so I apologise.

But definitely after Trudeau, as I said at least up until the fall of the USSR. The Candian public were led to believe otherwise. Part of the Trudeau truth.
Voodoos were in service into the '80s when the CF-18 came on line.

Which model are these?

http://terpsboy.com/blogger6/cafers.jpg

[de minimus]

Which model are these?

http://terpsboy.com/blogger6/cafers.jpg

That's pretty funny. They look way too new to be ours.

[de minimus]

Big Slim, if you're out there, don't bow out. You have great points. I for one respect your opinions and positions on Unions. I agree that they are needed in many situations. Just like Management, Unions need to exercise restraint. I belive it to be a good checks and balances system for the workforce. Non-union shops would not have very good working conditions had it not been FOR the unions. I hope everyone realizes that. Even office workers would have deplorable conditions.

I think "balance" is the right word...

Well said.

[RCSignals]

That's pretty funny. They look way too new to be ours.

His picture doesn't show up.

But speaking of 'new' When Canada did change over to CF18s, they still had a very large stock (war stock) of brand new mothballed Voodoos. (many more than were in service) These were all quietly sold to some un-named country in, maybe South America.

[jerrym3]

Well, if you think about it, union benefits are not paid for by the company. The costs are just rolled over into the price of the car.

So, my last three new Ford purchases have helped fund my brother-in-law's early retirement from Ford?

That S.O.B.

[texascorvette]

The 'Shareholder' approach has been working sooo well for the past 8 years. America is puting itself out of business. We, as a country have given away our Gross National and Gross Domestic Product. We still consume, but we are producing less of what we consume and bring to the world market.

I truely believe our time has passed as a great nation. We are so deep now, I fear we will never get out of the hole we've dug.

I think that companies need to take PROPER care of business, and the stock prices will follow. Too many financial analysts are in the boardroom and forgot how the bread gets buttered.

Think about this.... With fewer US/Canadian workers, there are fewer individuals with a VESTED INTEREST who hold shares in the Company the are supposed to believe in and work to improve.

We know from experience, that a great company is not made in the boardroom or on Wallstreet. It is great because of the WORKFORCE that drives the machine!

We have continually depleated the GREAT workforce this country once had, as such have degraded the vested interest of our countrymen and women.

"Cut The Help" can only go so far, and I belive we have far surpassed the point of no return. Not only have we given away our world market edge, we are in the final stages of breaking the will, pride and suppport of the American workforce.

Oh my, I guess I had something to say!!!

I'll be done now...My brother-in-law works in a Ford plant. In the last ten years, the wife and I have bought all the new Fords that we can pony up the money for because A) Ford makes as good a vehicle as anyone and better than most, and B) I want to help insure my sister's husband has a decent job. Some of the stories he tells me about the assinine work rules, feather-bedding, and downright reluctance to cooperate with management in any way, shape, or form make me wonder just how stupid I am for trying to support the American automobile industry tho!

[Dragcity]

As we can see in recent events, it's imparrative workers cooperate with manageemnt, and vice-versa. If we boil it down to the most simple and basic statement..... mankind can accomplish anything when we work together in a positive manner.

If everyone (and company) could just grow out of the "what's in it for me?", "How much can we take away?", Why should I?", "screw the other guy"; we could get out of this slump and rebuild proper relationships.

We, as a country truely are smarter than this. Ancient Rome had lead in their drinking water and pottery, they had that excuse.

Some things in life don't begin and end with dollars and cents....just sense!

Maybe Union Stewards should drive the machine to improve realations. It's in everyones 'Best Interest'.

[duhtroll]

Wow- I've learned a lot through this thread also guys - thanks.

I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but as far as unions are concerned:

1) They are a valued check to the power of management. I have seen firsthand what management will do when they think they can get away with it. That's all I will say on that, because it's anecdotal and not true of all situations.

2) To say that the unions are the problem in this case (and many others) is simply a cop-out. "Those damn lazy union workers and their BS about 'not my job' is what's wrong with this country" is an incredibly narrow viewpoint to take.

There are lazy workers EVERYWHERE; union and non-union. Sure there is corruption in unions - just like EVERYWHERE else in your community and our government. What's the old saying of one finger pointing away from you?

To imply that union-based job security makes one lazy is fallacious. To imply that any other form of job security makes one lazy means that fear of losing one's job is a/the primary motivating factor for Americans, and that American workers are, by and large, lazy in general. And if that's true, maybe we deserve the economy that's looming on the horizon.

Otherwise, one wouldn't be able to find many non-union employees who were just as lazy - just as worthless. Anyone wanna take that bet?

Unions' roles have changed because workplaces have changed. It does not make them valueless.

There is plenty of blame to go around.

. . .says the guy who typed this at work. :P

-A

[texascorvette]

Wow- I've learned a lot through this thread also guys - thanks.

I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but as far as unions are concerned:

1) They are a valued check to the power of management. I have seen firsthand what management will do when they think they can get away with it. That's all I will say on that, because it's anecdotal and not true of all situations.

2) To say that the unions are the problem in this case (and many others) is simply a cop-out. "Those damn lazy union workers and their BS about 'not my job' is what's wrong with this country" is an incredibly narrow viewpoint to take.

There are lazy workers EVERYWHERE; union and non-union. Sure there is corruption in unions - just like EVERYWHERE else in your community and our government. What's the old saying of one finger pointing away from you?

To imply that union-based job security makes one lazy is fallacious. To imply that any other form of job security makes one lazy means that fear of losing one's job is a/the primary motivating factor for Americans, and that American workers are, by and large, lazy in general. And if that's true, maybe we deserve the economy that's looming on the horizon.

Otherwise, one wouldn't be able to find many non-union employees who were just as lazy - just as worthless. Anyone wanna take that bet?

Unions' roles have changed because workplaces have changed. It does not make them valueless.

There is plenty of blame to go around.

. . .says the guy who typed this at work. :P

-AInterestingly enough, it was reported on CNBC this very morning that only 12.5% of American workers are unionized--and that includes those wacko nutcases at the National Education Association. At times it has every appearance that unions are doing their best kamikazi imitation. It is a rare member of management who has done anything to harm unions, but the unions' self-serving leaders care little for the rank-and-file member and have done an excellent job of driving their own members to the unemployment line. As long as they can keep their perks and big salaries, why should the leaders care about the fate of their own members?

[rayjay]

[quote=duhtroll
I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but as far as unions are concerned:

1) They are a valued check to the power of management. I have seen firsthand what management will do when they think they can get away with it. That's all I will say on that, because it's anecdotal and not true of all situations.-A[/quote]

Having been a union unit chair and regional VP for many years, I concur with the above statement.

[dwasson]

Well, if you think about it, union benefits are not paid for by the company. The costs are just rolled over into the price of the car.

Taxes too. Whenever some congress-critter wants to raise corporate taxes I want to remind them that corporations don't pay taxes, they just collect them.

[Dragcity]

It better be: Collect..... and Remit

[RCSignals]

................. but the unions' self-serving leaders care little for the rank-and-file member and have done an excellent job of driving their own members to the unemployment line. As long as they can keep their perks and big salaries, why should the leaders care about the fate of their own members?

This also is sadly quite true, in many instances.