Crosswind 777 and 747 Landings -- Incredible

[Bluerauder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljOxo0s33sI

Here are some aircraft crosswind landing tests. Heard that they were done in Brazil at a remote landing field noted for heavy crosswinds. Incredible !!! Check out the one around 2:00 minutes into the video. Whatever they are paying these guys ... ain't enough. ;) And thanks to those engineers that design the landing gear for these forces.

http://photos.imageevent.com/evorg/space/Crosswind.wmv

[fastblackmerc]

Amazing!! I didn't know those big planes could fly sideways! I hope one of those pilots are flying the next plane I'm on....

[natedog1284]

Our planes (C-5 Galaxies) used to have that system, and they are bigger than 747's (big enough to fit 6 greyhound buses inside!). But hence the problem; the system worked fine, but try finding pilot's brave enough to land a plane weighing over 600,000 lbs carrying 2 tanks, all while doing it sideways. The crosswind system was used so little, they deleted it so we maintenance guys wouldn't have to waste our time maintaining it. And people talk about how advanced technology is now; those planes and even the 747's were desinged back in the '50's and '60's, with nothing but paper, pencils and slide-rules. Those were some damn smart people!

[hitchhiker]

Our planes (C-5 Galaxies) used to have that system, and they are bigger than 747's (big enough to fit 6 greyhound buses inside!). But hence the problem; the system worked fine, but try finding pilot's brave enough to land a plane weighing over 600,000 lbs carrying 2 tanks, all while doing it sideways. The crosswind system was used so little, they deleted it so we maintenance guys wouldn't have to waste our time maintaining it. And people talk about how advanced technology is now; those planes and even the 747's were desinged back in the '50's and '60's, with nothing but paper, pencils and slide-rules. Those were some damn smart people!

You got that right!

Nice Post Bluerauder!

Regards,

Dave

:D

[dwasson]

B- 52s can do that too. But, I think it's easier just to find a runway that goes the right direction.

[MikesMerc]

Wow. That was simply just cool to see.

[Bobby Clobber]

Watching those things come in sideways got me thinking, they must be Trilogy equipped?:burnout: :banana: :banana:

[Bluerauder]

Amazing!! I didn't know those big planes could fly sideways! ....
Anybody here that can translate the captions? I believe that they are in Portugese. I think that the 1st one says "relatively calm winds" and they get increasingly more difficult. I am still fascinated with this video. :D P.S. the music is perfect and gives that just unbelieveable eerie feeling. :up:

[GreekGod]

How did you learn about sliderules?

Our planes (C-5 Galaxies) used to have that system, and they are bigger than 747's (big enough to fit 6 greyhound buses inside!). But hence the problem; the system worked fine, but try finding pilot's brave enough to land a plane weighing over 600,000 lbs carrying 2 tanks, all while doing it sideways. The crosswind system was used so little, they deleted it so we maintenance guys wouldn't have to waste our time maintaining it. And people talk about how advanced technology is now; those planes and even the 747's were desinged back in the '50's and '60's, with nothing but paper, pencils and slide-rules. Those were some damn smart people!

[natedog1284]

How did you learn about sliderules?

LOL...I've been told I'm the only 21 year old that thinks like a 40 year old more times than I can count...

And get this, I actually know how to use one too! :eek: Good thing too; I'm terrible at math. Besides, I'm a C-5 mechanic, I should know a little about how they were made, right?

[GreekGod]

My 10th grade geometry teacher (in 1966) told us our slide rules were faster than a calculator, and proved it! Just slide the rule for a 3 digit answer in multiplication-don't need to push any stinking buttons.

[mpearce]

Finally!! A post thats right up my alley!! (Not that Marauder stuff isnt)

I like the way the gear looks when they're coming in. I don't think I have ever seen that before on commercial jets in service now. Can anyone confirm the use of this? I know Boeing has plenty of 777's in service...just not sure if they actually have the crosswind system operational.

Those crosswinds are incredibly extreme. Some look to be at least 45 degrees or more off the runway heading. Coming in crabbed like that, with winds like that has got to be rough, especially in a big jet like that. You can't throttle jockey something like that because the turbines need time to spool back up to the power you need them at. Those pilots are fantastic. On one of the approaches, you can tell they're dropping like a rock, and fighting that wind pretty hard.

An airplane is basically like a weather vain. It's going to want to point into the wind no matter what. It's up to the pilot and all of his control surfaces (ailerons, flaps, slats, rudder, trim, etc.) to make sure that thing can land properly.

When I did it flying 172's and 182's, it used to be aileron into the wind to establish the crab angle. Dump in specific degrees of flaps using the standard procedure for whatever aircraft you're flying. And once you have the runway made, kick opposite rudder to straighten out the nose, and you're golden.

Seeing that stuff makes me want to get back in the air asap!

Nice post Blue.

-Mat

[Marauderjack]

On one of them (third one??) it looks as if the wheels are turned to towards the wind too...Can they actually do that??:confused: :bows:

Marauderjack:burnout:

[Bluerauder]

On one of them (third one??) it looks as if the wheels are turned to towards the wind too...Can they actually do that??:confused: :bows:

Marauderjack:burnout:
Jack,
I think if you look hard you will notice that in every one of the landings. In fact, I believe that it is the reason for the "tests" of a crosswind landing system. See Natedog1284's post #3 ^^^^^. :D

[grampaws]

Cool post! slide rules haven't used one for years!!

[Lone_Star]

Bluerauder,

Great post. I passed it along to my friend who is a Boeing Engineer. Its not very often that an Engineer gets public praise. Sliderules are faster then calculators, but you can't play games on a sliderule.

[magindat]

If you watch closely you ca really see the rudders getting a workout!

[GreekGod]

I thought those rudders were moving a lot. Suppose a computer was controlling them?
If you watch closely you ca really see the rudders getting a workout!

[pantheroc]

I've heard somewhere that "Plane landings are nothing more than controlled crashes". That was some good footage.

[Smokie]

Without doubt those pilots are made of "the right stuff"....

[marauder307]

ERAU grad weighing in...

In response to Marauderjack's observation: Yes, they can do that. The main gear on these bigger aircraft (the big airliners, B-52s, C-5s, -141s, and---I'm guessing here---the C-17s) has a certain amount of castering ability built into them.

The long-winded, ERAU-grad explanation goes like this: Ordinarily, as mpearce correctly pointed out, the correct way to perform a crosswind landing is to get the upwind wing down slightly and use the rudder to keep you going straight (or "maintain directional control", for those of you who prefer official-sounding terminology :P ). This is called "slipping" the aircraft.

Now...the aforementioned aircraft can't do it this way. Why? Because the engine nacelles---those big things hanging down beneath the wings---would strike the ground and more than likely get torn off. These bad boys are doing somewhere around 100-120 knots on approach, and only a little less than that in the landing phase. Not a good thing to snag one of those big turning compressor blades on the scrub brush next to the runway.

So the aircraft designers worked it out that the main gear can pivot around a little bit. That's not to say that they should land the airplane like this all time---in fact, I'd hazard a guess that in the Air Force, if you did that enough times, the crew chief is gonna want to talk to you---but in a pinch, the aircraft IS capable of it.

In response to GreekGod: Yes and no. Those controls are boosted both hydraulically and electronically, but it's a proportional response to the amount of pressure the pilot puts on the controls.

Cool-looking video! Looks to me like they were doing some max-performance testing, the kind where the airplane usually ends up broke and the engineers all stand around excitedly comparing notes..."Did you see it break?" "Yeah I did! It was so cool..."

[Ross]

If I was in any of those planes, the seats better be made of vinyl, because they would need to be cleaned up after we landed!

[DTR04]

Anybody here that can translate the captions? I believe that they are in Portugese. I think that the 1st one says "relatively calm winds" and they get increasingly more difficult. I am still fascinated with this video. :D P.S. the music is perfect and gives that just unbelieveable eerie feeling. :up:
Here is the translation.

Portuguese

Não são todos os dias que encontramos ventos calmos.
o que fazer nestas situações?
Voe
Volte à época de aeroclub
Lembre-se de seus intrutores e faça um pouso seguro.
Estes pilotos certamente voaram aeronaves convencionais
Aprenda com os melhores

English

It’s not every day that we find calm winds.
What do you do in these situations?
Fly.
One comes back to one's time in the Flying Club.
One remembers his instructors and makes a safe landing.
These pilots had certainly flown conventional aircraft.
Learn with the best ones…Flying Club.

[natedog1284]

ERAU grad weighing in...

In response to Marauderjack's observation: Yes, they can do that. The main gear on these bigger aircraft (the big airliners, B-52s, C-5s, -141s, and---I'm guessing here---the C-17s) has a certain amount of castering ability built into them.

The long-winded, ERAU-grad explanation goes like this: Ordinarily, as mpearce correctly pointed out, the correct way to perform a crosswind landing is to get the upwind wing down slightly and use the rudder to keep you going straight (or "maintain directional control", for those of you who prefer official-sounding terminology :P ). This is called "slipping" the aircraft.

Now...the aforementioned aircraft can't do it this way. Why? Because the engine nacelles---those big things hanging down beneath the wings---would strike the ground and more than likely get torn off. These bad boys are doing somewhere around 100-120 knots on approach, and only a little less than that in the landing phase. Not a good thing to snag one of those big turning compressor blades on the scrub brush next to the runway.

So the aircraft designers worked it out that the main gear can pivot around a little bit. That's not to say that they should land the airplane like this all time---in fact, I'd hazard a guess that in the Air Force, if you did that enough times, the crew chief is gonna want to talk to you---but in a pinch, the aircraft IS capable of it.

You are quite correct sir. Our gear does caster, as does the C-17's but the old x-wind system used to let the pilots dial in the gear rotation in accordance with the amount of wind they were flying into. And yes, I hate it when they get a little over-zealous with the sticks on a launch and taxi out too fast without letting the gear turn gradually; we almost always get problems with gear retraction or over/under rotation. But what's a young enlisted man like myself going to say to an officer pilot? Not much....:rolleyes:

[Bluerauder]

Here is the translation.

Portuguese

Não são todos os dias que encontramos ventos calmos.
o que fazer nestas situações?
Voe
Volte à época de aeroclub
Lembre-se de seus intrutores e faça um pouso seguro.
Estes pilotos certamente voaram aeronaves convencionais
Aprenda com os melhores

English

It’s not every day that we find calm winds.
What do you do in these situations?
Fly.
One comes back to one's time in the Flying Club.
One remembers his instructors and makes a safe landing.
These pilots had certainly flown conventional aircraft.
Learn with the best ones…Flying Club.
Thanks, DTR04 ..... appreciate the translation. :up:

I am pretty sure those pilots are among the best there is. :D

[mpearce]

ERAU grad weighing in...

I'm an ERAU grad as well. Nice to meet you. Funny we both do aviation as a career yet we run into each other on a car website.

I strictly fly airplanes only for pleasure now. I ended up controlling them instead.

-Mat

[dwasson]

I've heard somewhere that "Plane landings are nothing more than controlled crashes". That was some good footage.

Any landing that you can walk away from is a good one. If you can reuse the airplane, it's a great one.

[Joe Walsh]

I'm an ERAU grad as well. Nice to meet you. Funny we both do aviation as a career yet we run into each other on a car website.

I strictly fly airplanes only for pleasure now. I ended up controlling them instead.

-Mat


My brother is an ERAU grad (Prescott campus) and he flies triple 7s for Continental Airlines...I'll forward this video to him and ask him about these landings.
Pretty awesome flying, especially in such BIG planes!!:bows:

[GreekGod]

I was told that a 747 did a barrel-roll over the EAA fly-in at Oshkosh, WI years ago. Can anyone confirm?

[marauder307]

I was told that a 747 did a barrel-roll over the EAA fly-in at Oshkosh, WI years ago. Can anyone confirm?


Haven't heard of a 747 doing this...story may be apocryphal. But there is footage out there somewhere of "Tex" Johnson putting the first 707 through a barrel roll at low altitude, AND in full view of the Boeing top brass.

Kinda sucks how the world has changed...do that these days and you'll have a dozen FAA types gang-banging your butt as soon as you get parked...

[marauder307]

I'm an ERAU grad as well. Nice to meet you. Funny we both do aviation as a career yet we run into each other on a car website.

I strictly fly airplanes only for pleasure now. I ended up controlling them instead.

-Mat

I wish I still flew...spent 1999-2001 at ERAU-DAB getting my MAS degree; got recruited for my current job at one of their fall job fairs.

I haven't touched the controls since Feb 2003; last flight was at Maxwell AFB's Aero Club, in their "Aztruck". I DID get my 2nd class medical renewed in 2004; the 3rd class part of it expires in April (which is now this month, as you read this). Rolled up close to 400 hours, rated for Comm/Inst/MEL/SEL, and even got 40 hours of rotary time before I discovered that the school in Ormond Beach was ripping me off.

When I finally got hired at on my current job, I had rent, the student loan from ERAU, and the Marauder payment to contend with; with the price of a rental 172 pushing up around 110/hr wet, and instructors around 35-40/hour, I was too broke to keep flying and had too few hours to take a shot at the airlines. I've kept a membership in AOPA, but I'm getting progressively more disgusted with them. Phil Boyer's nuts if he thinks that general aviation's coming back...who in the he11 has 300g to buy a new 172 anymore, or $120/hr wet to spend on a rental? Not me...and with my impending marriage, now I've got yet something else to suck down my income. AOPA's fine if you've got a ton of money to contribute to them, otherwise they really don't care about you.

Ah well...I meant this to be a short answer, and now look what I've done.:shake: It's good meeting you too; seems like ERAU grads are everywhere...

[mpearce]

I was told that a 747 did a barrel-roll over the EAA fly-in at Oshkosh, WI years ago. Can anyone confirm?

I'd believe a 747 low pass at Oshkosh, but not a barrel roll. The 707 barrel roll is confirmed though. There is video. I think it was out in Seattle maybe in the 70's? The history channel had a story about the guy who did it, and interviewed his kid.

-Mat

[RoyLPita]

I'd believe a 747 low pass at Oshkosh, but not a barrel roll. The 707 barrel roll is confirmed though. There is video. I think it was out in Seattle maybe in the 70's? The history channel had a story about the guy who did it, and interviewed his kid.

-Mat

I would not mind seeing that footage.

I wonder if the newest (and largest) Airbus can take this kind of abuse?????

[Blue03]

I would not mind seeing that footage.

I wonder if the newest (and largest) Airbus can take this kind of abuse?????

It was Tex Johnson at the August 1955 SeaFair Summer Fest over the Hydroplane race course on Lake Washington in Seattle. It was in a prototype 707 called the Dash 80.

See and hear it from Tex himself. Hope the link works.

:) http://www.orizzle.com/htm/v/020.htm (http://www.orizzle.com/htm/v/020.htm)

[GreekGod]

Link worked fine-great site! Amazing C-130 takeoff and landing on aircraft carrier.

[mpearce]

I would not mind seeing that footage.

I wonder if the newest (and largest) Airbus can take this kind of abuse?????

Maneuvers like that are more reserved for the little aerobatic type aircraft. The A380 is just too huge for a barrel roll IMO, but who knows...it might be able to. It's too big and too slow I think. Maybe they'd stall a wing? I'm not really sure. They'd need a TON of altitude before entering the roll though.

-Mat

[marauder307]

Maneuvers like that are more reserved for the little aerobatic type aircraft. The A380 is just too huge for a barrel roll IMO, but who knows...it might be able to. It's too big and too slow I think. Maybe they'd stall a wing? I'm not really sure. They'd need a TON of altitude before entering the roll though.

-Mat

The Airbus aircraft can't do it...not because the airframe can't take it (although I imagine there'd be he11 to pay if you tried to roll something that dadgum big) but because the Airbuses have this notoriously overpowered HAL-like fly-by-wire system on board that won't allow it. If you try to exceed 35 degrees of bank, the computer takes the airplane away from you and rights itself.

This can have some real negative effects. Anybody remember that A320 that crashed at the Paris Air Show about 10-15 years ago? It was during a low-altitude "beauty pass" down the runway...with all the landing gear/flaps hanging out. The computer thought the aircraft was trying to land, and the when the pilots saw the end of the runway coming up fast (along with the VERY tall trees off the end) they tried to pull up...but HAL refused the control inputs, and they sailed right into the trees. A/C crashed and exploded. The Airbus company showed an amazing....um...efficiency, in cleaning up the crash site before the accident investigators could get there. :nono: :shake:

[mpearce]

Anybody remember that A320 that crashed at the Paris Air Show about 10-15 years ago?

Absolutely. That was horrible. Quite a fireball for everyone to see. Casualties if I'm not mistaken. I'm a Boeing and MD fan.

-Mat

[GreekGod]

Cylindrical slide rule.

http://godwin.bobanna.com/cylindrical_sliderule.jpg

Thacher's Calculating Instrument.
A cylindrical, rotating slide rule. Designed by Edwin Thacher in the late 1870s, and marketed by K+E as the model 4012. An engraving mistake on early pre-K+E instruments mis-spells the name as Thatcher. The rosewood box behind the instrument came with it.
The 18 inch scales have two portions, one external segmented cylinder that rotates, and a movable internal cylinder that also rotates. The scales achieve very high accuracy due to their equivalent length of 30 feet. This permits answers to 4 or sometimes 5 decimal places, which is extraordinary. Operations are multiplication, division, squares and square roots.
This slide rule was a working instrument in the mid 1930s, and then became the property of algebra teacher Hilda MacGregor, who often displayed it in her math class room. The use of slide rules was still part of the math curriculum into the 1960s. Today a five dollar calculator from K-Mart is vastly superior to a slide rule in every practical way. But in their day slide rules were a standard part of every engineer's tool kit, and many designs were completed with their aid.

[Ken]

Any landing that you can walk away from is a good one. If you can reuse the airplane, it's a great one.
ROTFLMAO:lol:

[mpearce]

Cylindrical slide rule.

http://godwin.bobanna.com/cylindrical_sliderule.jpg

Thacher's Calculating Instrument.
A cylindrical, rotating slide rule. Designed by Edwin Thacher in the late 1870s, and marketed by K+E as the model 4012. An engraving mistake on early pre-K+E instruments mis-spells the name as Thatcher. The rosewood box behind the instrument came with it.
The 18 inch scales have two portions, one external segmented cylinder that rotates, and a movable internal cylinder that also rotates. The scales achieve very high accuracy due to their equivalent length of 30 feet. This permits answers to 4 or sometimes 5 decimal places, which is extraordinary. Operations are multiplication, division, squares and square roots.
This slide rule was a working instrument in the mid 1930s, and then became the property of algebra teacher Hilda MacGregor, who often displayed it in her math class room. The use of slide rules was still part of the math curriculum into the 1960s. Today a five dollar calculator from K-Mart is vastly superior to a slide rule in every practical way. But in their day slide rules were a standard part of every engineer's tool kit, and many designs were completed with their aid.


C'mon with this picture!

We all know it's an Ionic Breeze!!

-Mat

[GreekGod]

C'mon with this picture!

We all know it's an Ionic Breeze!!

-Mat

More likely Corinthian. They might have had one at the Regurgitarium. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[mpearce]

Greek,

I was kidding about the Ionic Breeze thing...but honestly...I don't think Ive ever seen one of those before. Kind of like walking through a library and seeing someone using an Abacus.

I used the E6B or "wizz wheel" to get used to manual computations...once I had that down, I got lazy and used the electronic E6B. Much easier...especially when you're trying to keep your plane straight.

-Mat