Internals Upgrade...what else would you do? [Archive]

FiveO

05-19-2006, 10:22 AM

Hey Gang! Long time....but I'm back!

I had a catastrophic internal engine failure back in very late March. Filled up with 93 octane when it was 25 degrees out and the roads were clear....had to test her out and when I was at redline there was a nice little "kachunk!" and thats all she wrote! I most likely spun a rod bearing.

Good things:

Still have full oil pressure and she still ran...just a bad sound while idling :depress:
No leaks (block is probably fine)
Full S/C boost still available. I did limp her home 5 miles after the "incident".
Transmission still shifting fine.

Pushing 452rwhp and 13.5 pounds of boost in 25 degree weather on winter gas at 6500rpm's probably isn't a good idea... :mad2:

Either way....I've been busy at work...which is a good thing because the overtime helps :D

My Marauder was towed from my garage this morning on a flatbed. Its already 2/3 of the way torn down and the engine is almost ready to go to the engineering company thats going to be doing the internal work.

Upgrades coming for sure:

Diamond Forged Pistons: 20 over bore
Eagle Rods

Now...has anyone ever heard of Melonite or Nitrate coatings on the crankshaft? The engineering guy asked about it and I did some minor research online but am not sure about it. Its not too expensive and is supposed to cut down on wear and decrease friction along with hardening the metal its used on.

Everything is going to be done right in this repair.

I'm having the valve covers powdercoated gloss black while she's down.
Crankshaft is being balanced

Lots more but I gotta take the pistons that just arrived on my door to the engineering company :)

Any thoughts or what else to do while she's all torn down would be appreciated.

Special thanks to Lidio for the phone conversations and information he provided on this.

Also like any feedback on the Melonite/Nitrate coating.

Thanks!!!

:beer:

Tallboy

05-19-2006, 10:44 AM

It's good to hear from you, Mark!

Sorry about the engine. It looks like you're going about this the right way.

I wouldn't change a thing.

LVMarauder

05-19-2006, 10:46 AM

I saw your boring, why not bore and stroke, its just the crankshaft. you could probably reach 310 cid.

Haggis

05-19-2006, 11:12 AM

I hope it is not Sean Highland doing the work...Read this. (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27263)

MI2QWK4U

05-19-2006, 11:24 AM

Welcome back! Well, there is only one guy I would ask about rebuilding that motor, and that is Lidio. He has done a few hundred motors like ours for both Marauders and Mustangs. He primarily does the Mustang 4.6Ls for Mustangs pushing 600-800 RWHP and more, but has done a few Marauder applications as well. Mike Z (mikesmerc) just had lidio build him a motor to be proactive and as usual, it is perfect. Eventually when I get around to building the Mach 1 up, Lid will do the motor the same time it gets a blower. I am sure he could answer your questions and save you any money in crap you dont need. Good luck with the build...

FiveO

05-19-2006, 02:42 PM

I've been in contact with Lidio already, several times, and his information has been great. Just forgot to ask him about the nitrate/melonite treatment.

Lidio suggested DiamonD Pistons and gave me their number out in MI. Already ordered them, received them and got them to the engineering company. Lidio suggested the Eagle rods also and thats what I went with.

Forged Pistons
Upgraded Rods
Powder Coating of Valve covers

Anything else I'm missing on the deep internals? Might as well get-r-done while its all apart.

All the work is being done locally. I'll be using the present Lidio tune thats already on the chip once its all back together but I'll be heading back to Alternative Auto in late June/July sometime for a retune and checkup.

I stopped by the shop and the engine is already out and ready for transport to the engineering company early Monday morning.

MikesMerc

05-19-2006, 04:31 PM

Once you've covered the pistons and rods, you've covered 90% of the weakness in the 4.6 mod motor. Make sure you use high quality bearings and rings, but that goes without saying.

Get your block squared away. Surface roughness, waviness and straightness are important factors in the way a load is distributed to an engine part and are important determinants of a part’s service life. Make sure your block is prepped on a nice large stationary bore and hone machine, and properly decked.

Next to consider is the crank. Some go steel, but I think its a waste of $$. The aluminum block isn't going to go much beyond 700hp anyway, so a 900hp steel crank is overkill. Getting the stock crank balanced is the way to go IMO.

Have the rotating assembly balanced and spec'd to tolerance (blueprinted).

Put in a new oil pump. This is a must. An OEM HD unit is all that's needed.

Do all the above and you have a safe 700hp motor.

EDIT - I'll add that while you are in there, get the heads done. All you need is a bowl clean up...do NOT hog out the ports...the 4.6 DOHC breathes nicley on its own. A 3 angle on the valves is nice too. Have everything re-assembled on the heads with top end hardware (springs, shims, etc). Use the head bolts, not studs.

rayjay

05-19-2006, 06:34 PM

Mark, it was 25 degrees out, but was the engine warmed up fully? I always worry about this happening in the winter.

Glenn

05-19-2006, 06:49 PM

Mark:

Are you going to be able to get down to Atlanta this year? How about the SSHS6 in November?

Glenn

gilby04

05-19-2006, 08:48 PM

[QUOTE=FiveO
.....

Now...has anyone ever heard of Melonite or Nitrate coatings on the crankshaft? The engineering guy asked about it and I did some minor research online but am not sure about it. Its not too expensive and is supposed to cut down on wear and decrease friction along with hardening the metal its used on.
.....

Also like any feedback on the Melonite/Nitrate coating.

Thanks!!!

:beer:[/QUOTE]

FiveO,

My experiences with Melonite/Nitrate coatings are:

1) Melonite is a trademark name for Salt Nitriding. Other such trademark names are Tufftride, Dynablue, and Dynablack.

2) I think the Nitrate coating you refer to is actually a Nitride process, whereas a coating suggests a dimensional increase.

3) Salt Nitriding, and Gas Nitriding, are a heat treating process where nitrogen is infused into the surface of a metal component. This process puts the surface of the metal component into compression, rather than tension. The depth of penetration into the surface of the metal component is very shallow, perhaps .0020", with virtually no dimensional changes to the metal component. This .0020" depth of penetration is quite hard, approaching 65-70 on the Rockwell "C" hardness scale, substantially increasing the wear resistance of the metal component. In addition to the increase in surface hardness, the Nitriding process imparts corrosion resistance and reduces the coefficient of friction of the metal component. Plus it causes the metal to change color to either deep blue or black, similar to "blued gun barrels" on firearms.
Hope the above comments are helpful to you.

Joe Walsh

05-20-2006, 06:15 AM

When I rebuilt my engine, I had my Diamond pistons coated on the top with a thermal barrier coating.
I will eventually S/C my engine and I thought that it would be cheap insurance to avoid heat soaking the piston crowns on a long run under full boost.
I also looked into a 'moly' coating on the piston skirts, but elected not to add that. My engine builder felt it did not help much for the cost.
I also looked into a stroker crank to complement the 93mm Big bore but my engine builder (Modular Performance) did NOT recommend I do that.
They said that a stroker crank pulls a short piston way down to the very bottom of the bore and was not a good addition to a Big bore engine.

Good luck with your rebuild.

FiveO

05-20-2006, 06:18 AM

Thanks for all of the information gents.

Appreciate it. Didn't know about the oil pump replacement!

SSHS6 should be a go this year. Looking pretty good.

Sounds like that Nitriding might be a positive thing if its not too expensive. I'd read that it decreases friction.

When the rod bearing spun the engine was fully warmed up. I'd been up in the Twin Cities and was almost back home. I'd just filled up with 93 octane so I'm not sure if I got some bad gas...IE: water in the gas or if it was just a batch of bad winter gas with additives. Either way...not sure.

She's all torn apart and the engine goes to the engineer on Monday morning.

The Diamond pistons arrived....man are they beautiful! I ordered the rings right from Diamond also.

Thanks again gents!

Glenn

05-20-2006, 07:33 AM

Mark:

Looking forward to seeing you at SSHS6 in Commerce. I just got Trilogized.

Glenn

FiveO

05-21-2006, 07:52 AM

Mark:

Looking forward to seeing you at SSHS6 in Commerce. I just got Trilogized.

Glenn

All right! Nice job Glenn!

What kit number?

:beer:

John F. Russo

05-22-2006, 06:23 AM

Once you've covered the pistons and rods, you've covered 90% of the weakness in the 4.6 mod motor. Make sure you use high quality bearings and rings, but that goes without saying.

Get your block squared away. Surface roughness, waviness and straightness are important factors in the way a load is distributed to an engine part and are important determinants of a part’s service life. Make sure your block is prepped on a nice large stationary bore and hone machine, and properly decked.

Next to consider is the crank. Some go steel, but I think its a waste of $$. The aluminum block isn't going to go much beyond 700hp anyway, so a 900hp steel crank is overkill. Getting the stock crank balanced is the way to go IMO.

Have the rotating assembly balanced and spec'd to tolerance (blueprinted).

Put in a new oil pump. This is a must. An OEM HD unit is all that's needed.

Do all the above and you have a safe 700hp motor.

EDIT - I'll add that while you are in there, get the heads done. All you need is a bowl clean up...do NOT hog out the ports...the 4.6 DOHC breathes nicley on its own. A 3 angle on the valves is nice too. Have everything re-
assembled on the heads with top end hardware (springs, shims, etc). Use the head bolts, not studs.

Are you saying 700 RWHP?

fastblackmerc

05-22-2006, 06:46 AM

I have a '66 Corvair Corsa Coupe that has a Nitrate-treated crank that is/was standard equipment with the 140HP engine option. These cranks are very much sought after for their durability in the Corvair aftermarket especially for Covair powered aircraft. If it's within your budget I'd go for it.

Glenn

05-22-2006, 07:51 AM

Mark:

Trilogy #124.

Glenn

MikesMerc

05-22-2006, 04:58 PM

Are you saying 700 RWHP?

Nope. Rule of thumb is that would be at the crank. Figure safe rwhp into the low 600 to 650 range, though I have seen forged bottomed 4.6 DOHC motors making over 700rwhp.

FiveO

05-23-2006, 03:34 PM

Don't think pistons and rods are supposed to look like this:

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/149211648.jpg

Good news...the block appears just fine. No water in the gas, the guy doing the work feels that it was just static compression (I think he called it that).

Should be ready toward the end of next week....!

I asked him about the oil pump and he said that its already in the works and he replaces them whenever he rebuilds an engine.

The crankshaft is going out tomorrow for rebalancing and nitrite treatment.

More as I get it!

:beer:

Joe Walsh

05-23-2006, 03:40 PM

Don't think pistons and rods are supposed to look like this:

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/149211648.jpg

WOW! :eek:
I've gotta give those powdered metal rods more respect!

S/C force feeds cylinder COLD, DRY air for combustion;
Piston pushes down on rod REALLY hard;
Rod pushes down on Crankshaft REALLY hard;
Crankshaft doesn't move fast enough;
Rod goes "OUCH".

Glad to hear that all else looks 'OK'.

MikesMerc

05-23-2006, 03:42 PM

Yowsa, that's the second bent rod I've seen this year. The last one was off a Kenne Bell blown 4.6 DOHC making 18 PSI that bent a rod from huge low end torque.

Looking at your pick, the ring landings look intact. Appears that piston damage happened after the rod bent. But thats just a guess.

Sounds like you are on your way to a good rebuild. Keep us posted.

FiveO

05-23-2006, 03:51 PM

And its tough to tell from that picture but if you look straight on on the rod you'd see a bit of "twist" too...

Wowza is right.

GreekGod

05-23-2006, 04:28 PM

I thought the consensus on this forum was the stock powdered metal oil pump gears should be replaced with hp gears account the powdered metal gears will fail from very little detonation.

TooManyFords

05-23-2006, 04:39 PM

With rods that look like pretzels, I would -seriously- consider upgrading to a cobra crank. No telling how that crank could be weakened with that sort of stress levels.

Really. Spend the money now and don't tear it down again in 3 months.

john

PS: Welcome back Mark!!

MikesMerc

05-23-2006, 05:00 PM

I thought the consensus on this forum was the stock powdered metal oil pump gears should be replaced with hp gears account the powdered metal gears will fail from very little detonation.

Detonation has no effect on the oil pump gears. The ravaging effects of detonation can be found mostly in the cylinder (which includes the piston).

I've yet to hear of a mod motor fail due to an OEM oil pump failure. The OEM units are surprisingly stought. Most mod motor builders throw in a new unit during the build.

Just like the crank, an oil pump can be upgraded for serious builds. IMO they are overkill on a basic forged build up on a stock amuminum mod motor block, and an area to pay attention to if you are on a reasonable budget. Of course both upgrades do buy you more "toughness" in those areas if budget isn't an issue. But, once you've cover the pistons and rods, the block will be next to let go long before the stock crank and oil pump do.

That said, John is right, I'd have the crank gone over well at a minimum.

FiveO

05-23-2006, 05:15 PM

The crank is going to be gone over with a fine tooth comb. Anything wrong with it and it will be replaced.

I'm also going to get it nitrite treated...so that should help.

Thanks for the info gents...more to come as I get it!

Marauderman

05-23-2006, 05:25 PM

Mark--I need to go over my rebuild stuff--and see what I did ---seems your doing it all right---I know this thing I got now seems to get angry casue I can't find enough straight roads--:lol:--good luck and I will soon post my upgrades===Tom

FiveO

05-24-2006, 04:32 PM

This is just sad!!!

I bent 2...yes 2 rods, not just the one!

The mechanic doing the internals work had only pulled the 1 piston (left one) at the time I posted the 1st pic. He got the rest of the block taken apart earlier today and found the piston on the right!!! This one was the 2nd from the back on the passenger side....and its not torn up as much.

The oil pump has been ordered (new one) and the crankshaft is being meticulously inspected for flaws (any and I'm getting a new one). Its then going to get the nitrate treatment. The block still appears to be just fine...thank god!

Couple pics:

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/149510481.jpg

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/149510494.jpg

The new Eagle Rods: Old ones are an "I" formation...these are an "H" formation. Should be much stronger.

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/149510524.jpg

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/149510510.jpg

More as I get it!

:beer:

Joe Walsh

05-24-2006, 09:14 PM

That is an expensive pair of book ends!!

FiveO

05-24-2006, 09:16 PM

That is an expensive pair of book ends!!

Great idea!

Just gotta find someone to get them bronzed.. :D

FiveO

06-06-2006, 05:25 AM

Hey Gang,

The Crankshaft is just fine, no damage. It was meticulously inspected and is free of flaws. Its been treated with nitrite and is being balanced as we speak. I haven't seen it yet but will grab some pics when its back late this week. The engineer doing the work said its almost black now...:)

The valve covers turned out beautifully! Much better than the crappy silver the 2004's came with: I didn't get a photograph the they're even powdercoated inside!! (nothing on the seal points though).

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/153485921.jpg

Engine should be good to go by Monday/Tuesday for the re-install. More info as I get it!

Thanks again for all the help and tips. The engineer/mechanic team I picked for this rebuild is top notch and everything you people posted here they're already doing.

:beer:

juno

06-06-2006, 05:59 AM

Do you have an update? What are you doing with the top end?

Smokie

06-06-2006, 06:43 AM

If I read your post correctly, you bent #1 and #7 rods and broke the skirt on piston #1, have the pieces of the piston skirt been found??? Were they intact or pulverized???

Thanks for the updates and pictures.

FiveO

06-06-2006, 10:08 AM

All the metal was pulverized. Smaller pieces...1/4 inch long, bit smaller. The Pistons that were bent were in the following positions:

Front of car:

okay.......okay
okay.......okay
okay.......bent passenger side -->
bent.......okay

Back of engine

All of the metal has been found. The whole thing is apart and the oil pump is being replaced. There's no where else it could be but found.

Sorry for my newbie-ness when it comes to engines, as I'm learning alot, but what changes can be made to the "top-end" and what parts actually entail the "top-end"?

Smokie

06-06-2006, 10:49 AM

FiveO

06-06-2006, 10:58 AM

Top end...you talking heads and cams?

Leaving those alone for now...all appears fine with them.

FiveO

06-13-2006, 08:53 PM

All's coming together with the rebuild...slowly but surely. The balancing took a bit of extra time....gent who was doing it was busy.

It was balanced on some type of digital machine. Actually wasn't too out of wack...about 20 grams from what I hear.

The nitrite treating is interesting. Makes the crankshaft look almost black or at least dark gray.

Several pics...including the block getting its once over...including a .20 over bore.

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/156167592.jpg

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/156167629.jpg

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/156167609.jpg

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/156167599.jpg

I've spoken with the guy whose doing the internal work at length and he's convinced this will be a beautiful upgrade, just like everyone here has said. Few extra HP, no problems with the crank (now nitrite treated), upgraded rods, pistons, etc.

Everythings coming together!

Thanks Lidio, Mikesmerc for the information and everyone for the other suggestions.

Should be on the road by the end of next week at the latest. I'm asking the guys to take their time and do it right.

All smiles here in Minnesota!!! :D :beer:

MikesMerc

06-14-2006, 04:46 AM

Looks great!! You're going to have a nice potent motor there that will withstand the extra abuse of higher HP levels. Congrats on a very smart rebuild process. It sounds like the guys doing your work know what they are doing.

Keep us posted when it all comes together.

Glenn

06-18-2006, 04:35 PM

Mark:

The only time I saw rods that bent like that was when I was in LA (no, that is not like in CA). I owned a nice 1988 Lincoln Mark VII LSC with the 302 HIPO engine. I drove to work through a thunder storm worse then any hurricane I had ever seen and I went through some standing water and got some up the air intake. Engine ran but had a ticking noise. Sure enough, I had the oil pan taken off and had the bent rod. I believe it is called hydrostatic lock. My guess is somehow you got water on top of the pistons.

Glenn

FiveO

06-30-2006, 05:41 AM

Well she's done!

Took an extra week or two but I'm not complaining. During that down time I had the front timing cover powder coated gloss black also to match the valve covers. Looks great.

The engine went back in yesterday and they fired her up. No problems what-so-ever.

I have alot of pics to upload and I'll do it after work this evening.

Can't wait to drive her this weekend! WOOT!

Tallboy

06-30-2006, 07:28 AM

I'm glad to hear things are going well, Mark. Keep us posted...:up:

TooManyFords

06-30-2006, 07:43 AM

That's really good to hear Mark. Now I gotta get up there and cruise the parkways with you Minneapplers!

:)

john

FiveO

07-03-2006, 12:37 PM

Well there was one glitch. The car started and idled fine, even drove fine. But..anytime you'd get into the s/c boost (5+ pounds) there was a problem. It was like it wasn't getting enough gas or something, there was major hesitation.

I called Trilogy and spoke with Ben. He was very helpful and once I explained the situation he knew right away what it was....spark plug gap. The mechanic that re-installed the engine put the gap at the stock motor settings and not Trilogy settings. Once that was figured out and fixed she's running like a top! The shop did that for free also, no issues there. They've been great to work with, just missed that one step.

Just got her washed up and taking a nice leisurely drive to the Twin Cities late this afternoon. First 200 miles not much boost at all...then an oil change on Wed/Thursday.

Couple pics:

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/163017405.jpg

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/163017364.jpg

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/163017341.jpg

Engine bay is a bit dirty right now but as I have the whole week off :D its gonna be sparkling by the weekend!

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL283/1552930/4651240/163017392.jpg

The rebuild was very professionally done. Cost breakdown:

$500 Eagle rods
$850 Diamond forged Pistons .20 bore
$175 Crankshaft Nitrite treatment

The re-builder used Fel-Pro Gaskets all around except the valve cover gaskets which I replaced.

$120 new water pump (OEM, new - not rebuilt)
New oil pump, forget the brand name but its not OEM. Upgraded, the rebuilder swears by them. I'll get the info if anyones interested.

Total cost for me: Out of Pocket:

$2950 paid to the rebuilder (included oil pump, crank test and nitrate, etc.)
$850 pistons and accessories
$125 water pump
$155 miscellaneous gaskets, bolts and new plugs that I needed to purchase
$995 to the shop for taking the engine out and putting it back in.

= $5075

Hope its well worth it...we'll find out after I hit the track in a month after getting a couple thousand miles on the rebuild. Nice thing is with this setup with the forged pistons and better rods I have some breathing room on the total HP and don't have to worry about doing this same thing again :)

Next up, probably next spring, is a rebuild of the rear end to include 31 spline axles.

Cheers!!!

:banana2: :beer: :D

juno

07-03-2006, 12:53 PM

Very nice!

Yes, the timing cavers came out great!

shakes_26

07-03-2006, 03:27 PM

Sounds like she'll be a real screamer! glad to hear you've got her back and in the mix.

Thanks for posting the good info, I would have never thought a powdered rod (much less two...showoff!) would bend like that and not snap/shear/disintegrate.

MikesMerc

07-03-2006, 03:40 PM

$2950 paid to the rebuilder (included oil pump, crank test and nitrate, etc.)
$850 pistons and accessories
$125 water pump
$155 miscellaneous gaskets, bolts and new plugs that I needed to purchase
$995 to the shop for taking the engine out and putting it back in.

= $5075

Hope its well worth it...we'll find out after I hit the track in a month after getting a couple thousand miles on the rebuild. Nice thing is with this setup with the forged pistons and better rods I have some breathing room on the total HP and don't have to worry about doing this same thing again :)

Looks great! You got a fair price for all that work as well. A nice smart build you have. Congrats.