Another reason to worry

[dwasson]

From: http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/69045.htm

HILL DRIVE FOR '55'
By IAN BISHOP

May 24, 2006 -- WASHINGTON - In a surprise move yesterday, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton called for "most of the country" to return to a speed limit of 55 mph in an effort to slash fuel consumption.

"The 55-mile speed limit really does lower gas usage. And wherever it can be required, and the people will accept it, we ought to do it," Clinton said at the National Press Club.

Before sounding off on the benefits of a lower speed limit, Clinton called for a combination of tax incentives, the use of more ethanol-based fuel and a $50 billion fund for new energy research to cut the consumption of foreign oil 50 percent by 2025.

She also pushed for half of all the nation's gas stations to have ethanol pumps by 2015, and for every gas station to have them by 2025.

[MM2004]

If I were to say I cannot stand Hillary, would this become a political thread? :rolleyes:

I cannot stand Hillary.

We'll see,...

Mike.

[KillJoy]

I agree...... Hillary = Bad

However, I DO think we should convert to a Renewable Source of fuel. Ethanol and Bio Diesel are both good in my book.

KillJoy

[MENINBLK]

GOD FORBID Hillary travels to Texas !!!

We need to get her OUT of New York
YOU need to get her out of the USA !!!

[dwasson]

I've read a couple articles that say that say that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol that it gives back. Everyone wants to talk about Brazil and how they make ethanol from sugar cane. Nobody wants to talk about the demand for sugar cane is causing farmers to destroy the rain forest at an even faster rate.

Ultimately hydrogen is probably the way to go but, we are still far away from that.

[Mike Poore]

I've read a couple articles that say that say that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol that it gives back.

But if ETOH and Bio-Diesel were produced at non-peak hour, hydro and nuke plants, wouldn't the manufacturing cost go down? It seems to me since we're paying agro-business to NOT grow corn, those funds could be use to subsidise the bio-fules industry.


Ultimately hydrogen is probably the way to go but, we are still far away from that.

What's the hitch, Dan? Manufacturing cost, distribution, hysteria, or a combination of all three?

[Paul T. Casey]

I'd like to run alcohol, just the conversion is a major expense. Upsides are it burns cleaner, cooler, and American Farmers grow it. Downside, besides conversion costs, less efficent, if on fire, you cannot see it. Bump the octane with methanol, and let's get aggressive with our tunes! On the Hillary thing, in a sick sort of way, I hope she gets elected. I know a lot of people who deserve it. I can survive, but I figure a lot of things will get cheap when people can't afford them anymore.

[dwasson]

I don't think that it makes sense to grow a crop specifically to make into alcohol. If you could use any biomass that would eliminate the energy used to grow the crops. There are attempts to develop enzymes to break down the complex carbohydrates in wood chips and lawn clippings other waste. This would result in sugars that could be fermented to make alcohol. Then we are left with just the energy used to make the alcohol and the cost of trucking. Alcohol can't be run through pipelines. If you just look at the pump price you are ignoring a lot of subsidies. And as we all know, if the only reason you are doing something is because the government is paying you, it's probably not a good idea.

Hydrogen has it's own issues with energy. Using electrolysis to separate the hydrogen from the O2 in water uses a lot of energy. How do you carry hydrogen in a vehicle? Pressurized? Do you want to have a potential explosive in the back of you car? You could carry it in a bead bed. But then you have to heat the bead bed to release the hydrogen.

Building an infrastructure to supply hydrogen fuel will be expensive. Let's say hypothetically that you can buy a hydrogen car, with acceptable performance, for a small premium over a conventional car. Since we are all good citizens, and want nothing more than to help our nation wean itself from foriegn oil, we will all be willing to pay twice as much per mile as we would for gasoline. After all, we all want good things for our nation.

We do not have a shortage of oil. We have a shortage of cheap oil. When oil gets expensive enough, we'll find other things to use.

[FiveO]

Sounds good to me!

;) :)

Actually...I'd vote for her...(better than any republicants) ;) just wouldn't agree with her on this subject.

[duhtroll]

I am rampantly anti-Bush, but I'd vote against Hillary in a heartbeat. I'm hoping McCain makes a run.

Though, it *would* be fun to see what Bill would do back in the White House with nothing but time on his hands and the wife busy all the time . . .

:lol:

[dwasson]

I doubt if there is any real sentiment out there for 55MPH. When able, every state but Hawaii raised the limit on at least some roads. I think this explains why it takes Hawaiians so long to drive to the next state.

[Leadfoot281]

If all the corn raised in this country was turned into ethanal or bio-diesel, it wouldn't be a fraction of our needs.

Hydrogen is never going to happen. The metals needed in the fuel cells are semi-rare and pricy. I can't name them all right now, but I did read that the US hasn't got enough deposits of these metals for the potential needs.

As far as Hillary, well, I'll gratefully spend my Trilogy fund to keep her a$$ out. The same goes for McCain.

[Marauder]

With the aerodynamics of cars nowadays, I don't think 55mph is the best for gas mileage. The last few cars I've had got the best mileage between 65 and 75 especially on long trips.

When cars were boxes, 55 may have been a better idea to save gas.

[Vortex]

I seem to recal we fought a revolutionary war long ago because we were sick of dynasties; what do we have now? Kennedys, Clintons, and Bushes. Im tired of all of them, we need some new blood running things. Im a Democrat but will not support Hillary Clinton.

[hitchhiker]

From: http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/69045.htm

HILL DRIVE FOR '55'
By IAN BISHOP

May 24, 2006 -- WASHINGTON - In a surprise move yesterday, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton called for "most of the country" to return to a speed limit of 55 mph in an effort to slash fuel consumption.

"The 55-mile speed limit really does lower gas usage. And wherever it can be required, and the people will accept it, we ought to do it," Clinton said at the National Press Club.

Before sounding off on the benefits of a lower speed limit, Clinton called for a combination of tax incentives, the use of more ethanol-based fuel and a $50 billion fund for new energy research to cut the consumption of foreign oil 50 percent by 2025.

She also pushed for half of all the nation's gas stations to have ethanol pumps by 2015, and for every gas station to have them by 2025.

Hillary has a reputation for making rather dumb and impractical statements in an attempt to cater to which ever 'issue of the day' is being kicked around on the federal level stage. Mostly shallow self-serving sound bites. She picks up on the ethanol issue because that's the way the wind is blowing
and she wants to pick up a few 'safe' points if possible. Nothing much really.

The 'pragmatic chamelion' political personality is really quite discusting.


Think you really know who to vote for?

The Democrats and Republicans have taught each other so well over the years that modern political content is nothing but non-stop well-crafted BS.

Show me the people, the talent, the money, the services, the protection, the opportunity, and the security of the USA and I'm basically happy.

Throw out each and every incumbent this year no matter what party they say they belong to, get a 12 pack afterward, and celebrate the fact that you have really done something.

D.C. will really notice.

And you will have!

:D

[hitchhiker]

If all the corn raised in this country was turned into ethanal or bio-diesel, it wouldn't be a fraction of our needs.

Hydrogen is never going to happen. The metals needed in the fuel cells are semi-rare and pricy. I can't name them all right now, but I did read that the US hasn't got enough deposits of these metals for the potential needs.

As far as Hillary, well, I'll gratefully spend my Trilogy fund to keep her a$$ out. The same goes for McCain.

Dayam.

I thought I noticed something...

This...

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/image.php?u=3796&dateline=1147401551 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/member.php?u=3796)

...and this...

http://usera.imagecave.com/hitchhiker/BushMad.gif

And...

...What's wrong with McCain?

At least 'this stooge' was a real Military Hero years ago and definately took a lickin for us folks here at home.

Points in my book.

Regards,

Dave

:D

[Leadfoot281]

"What's wrong with McCain?"

McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform.

Senator Russ Feingold (D-Wi) said that "special interest" money was corrupting politics and had to limited. McCain obviously went along with it.

So now, due to me (NRA member) and my friend Rick (AARP member) corrupting poor Russ and John, "our voice" in Washington has been silenced 30 or 60 days before elections.

"Our voice" in Washington includes the AARP, NRA, NEA, etc. (EVIL special interest groups indeed!!! ). No more commercials before elections. The people we pay to get our message to America and the government, has been shut down by these self admitted(?) corrupt polititions.

How it squeaked thru the Supreme court, I'll never know.... "CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH". I should send them clowns a copy of the constitution just so they can read it, and not wipe their a$$es on it.

Thanks for noticing my new avatar! It's my 4th grade graduation picture. Ain't I cute? :) BTW, I agree with you again. No more incumbants!

[hitchhiker]

"What's wrong with McCain?"

McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform.

Senator Russ Feingold (D-Wi) said that "special interest" money was corrupting politics and had to limited. McCain obviously went along with it.

So now, due to me (NRA member) and my friend Rick (AARP member) corrupting poor Russ and John, "our voice" in Washington has been silenced 30 or 60 days before elections.

"Our voice" in Washington includes the AARP, NRA, NEA, etc. (EVIL special interest groups indeed!!! ). No more commercials before elections. The people we pay to get our message to America and the government, has been shut down by these self admitted(?) corrupt polititions.

How it squeaked thru the Supreme court, I'll never know.... "CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH". I should send them clowns a copy of the constitution just so they can read it, and not wipe their a$$es on it.

Thanks for noticing my new avatar! It's my 4th grade graduation picture. Ain't I cute? :) BTW, I agree with you again. No more incumbants!

Cute as ever!

:D

[Leadfoot281]

Thanks Dave...:o (I think)

While I'm at it, Russ Feingold was recently quoted in the La Crosse Tribune saying that there is too much "discrimination" in the states constitution and would like to see gay marriage happen in Wisconsin.

That's brilliant! Too much discrimination? Lol! While he's at it, why not eliminate the "discrimination" that is preventing me from getting married to my Marauder? Hey, I'd love the cheaper car insurance rates and higher taxes that come from being hitched! Heck, I know a chick that'd get married to her horse, if it weren't for all that darn "discrimination"!!!!!

No doubt about it folks, that Russ Feingold is a brilliant man...:rolleyes: Keep your eyes peeled. I have a feeling this wacko crack-pot may take a run at the White House too.

I have no feelings either way on what people do in their homes. But pro-gay marriage people like McCain or Feingold are gonna open up a big can-o-worms if they allow gay marriage. (especially from the "get married to your car" crowd)!

[Mike Poore]

If all the corn raised in this country was turned into ethanal or bio-diesel, it wouldn't be a fraction of our needs.

Hydrogen is never going to happen. The metals needed in the fuel cells are semi-rare and pricy. I can't name them all right now, but I did read that the US hasn't got enough deposits of these metals for the potential needs.

Here's the guy I was waiting to hear from, Dan.

Someone with first-hand information in agro-business. BTW, I think the rare earth storage material for Hydrogen is Bryllium (sp?)

Ok, so we know that using 100% ethanol as an automotive fuel is a pipe dream; but what about a 10% gasoline ETOH mix? I understand that this ratio will work just fine as an automotive fuel in most cars without modification, and would mean a real 10% reduction in oil consumption, for gasoline manufacture, at least. Wouldn't that represent a significant reduction in imported fuel, or would we burn more fuel to manufacture the ethanol? :dunno:

[duhtroll]

It's the storage and transport of the ethanol that's the issue - it's doable, but oil companies are dragging their collective feet in getting it done. They cannot honestly say "we don't have the resources to do this" as they'd be laughed at. The longer we stay in their max. profit zone, the better.

[Mike Poore]

It's the storage and transport of the ethanol that's the issue -


Am I to understand that the mixing would have to be done at the point of sale, or could it be mixed and be transported from the refinery?

One nice thing about ethanol is that it's hydroscopic, meaning it would suck up any moisture in the tank.
It just seems to me that a 10% reduction of gasoline consumption would be a worthwhile effort, even if there were subsidies involved.

[Mad4Macs]

Ultimately hydrogen is probably the way to go but, we are still far away from that.

Sign me up!

http://www.outatime.it/public/40-mr_fusion.jpg

[dwasson]

Am I to understand that the mixing would have to be done at the point of sale, or could it be mixed and be transported from the refinery?

One nice thing about ethanol is that it's hydroscopic, meaning it would suck up any moisture in the tank.
It just seems to me that a 10% reduction of gasoline consumption would be a worthwhile effort, even if there were subsidies involved.

What is it about subsidies that people like so much? There is a basic rule about subsidies: If you wouldn't do it without a subsidy it is a bad idea. A subsidy doesn't make it a good idea, it just means that someone else pays for the bad idea.

Last year's energy bill mandates arbitrary increases in blended ethanol use that so exceed current ethanol production that it is causing gasoline shortages and therefore huge price spikes.

Why don't we import the missing ethanol? Brazil makes a ton of it and very cheaply.

Answer: The Iowa caucuses. Iowa grows corn and chooses presidents. So we have a ridiculously high 54-cent ethanol tariff and ethanol shortages.

Nothing can screw up a rational market as surely as throwing government at it.

[duhtroll]

Iowa grows less corn than Illinois. (or they did at least a few years ago) Square mileage thing.

If all that ethanol money is coming to Iowa farmers, I wonder why the parents of my students aren't rolling in it (I teach in a county that has the richest farm soil in the nation, bar none). Oh yeah, because they have to pay for the fuel for their combines. And any profits that would be seen are absorbed by the middlemen.

People have been trying to replace the Iowa caucuses for decades. I really don't see the correlation between that and gas prices. As for tariffs on sugar imports, I wonder if that is mostly to protect US production of *sugar* more so than corn.

While it may look like a great solution to the depedency on oil, there are a fair share of problems using ethanol. There is a break even point on the price of ethanol; that is, it is only worth using it if it’s price is below 70% of the price of gasoline, because ethanol is less efficient on the engine. Let’s say that if you can run 10 km with one liter of gasoline, the flex engine will only run 7.5 km with the same amount of ethanol.

That said, the price relation between the barrel of ethanol ($30) and the barrel of oil ($70) (and if I may add, $70 only because we are futzing around in the mid-east and SUVs are still flying off dealer lots) does not represent the prices at the pump. Ethanol comes from sugarcane, the same as does, yes, sugar! And sugar, as oil is a commodity. Right now the world demand for sugar is twice the production so the price just keeps rising. As of today, in Brazil, as a producer you make more money turning sugarcane to sugar than into ethanol.

The offer of ethanol is much lower than the demand (because everybody in Brazil is buying flex engines now) and the price of ethanol on the pump skyrocketed to almost 90% of the price of gasoline, so its not as economically viable to fill the tank with ethanol anymore.

EDIT: As a side note, I'm tired of the reed prices for woodwind instruments skyrocketing as well. (they are also made from sugarcane) :P


What is it about subsidies that people like so much? There is a basic rule about subsidies: If you wouldn't do it without a subsidy it is a bad idea. A subsidy doesn't make it a good idea, it just means that someone else pays for the bad idea.

Last year's energy bill mandates arbitrary increases in blended ethanol use that so exceed current ethanol production that it is causing gasoline shortages and therefore huge price spikes.

Why don't we import the missing ethanol? Brazil makes a ton of it and very cheaply.

Answer: The Iowa caucuses. Iowa grows corn and chooses presidents. So we have a ridiculously high 54-cent ethanol tariff and ethanol shortages.

Nothing can screw up a rational market as surely as throwing government at it.

[duhtroll]

That's beyond my knowledge, but I'm surrounded by people who know so if no one else chimes in I can find out. EDIT: I think the oil companies were *****ing about not being able to send it through pipes or something.

I *do* know that Brazil's ethanol has problems with freezing, tho'. That had me mystified when I heard it.

Found this on the ethanol tariff: http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/pdf/Ethanol_Tariff_Position_Paper. pdf

and this: http://cornandsoybeandigest.com/news/Suspending-the-Ethanol-Tariff-Wouldnt-Solve-the-Gas-Price-Problem/index.html

But those are from obviously biased sources.

I see corn based ethanol as the short-term solution. It is not something that is going to be cost effective for long, which is why we need to look into cars that run on crap, literally.

Make one that runs on methane and I'll never need to stop for fuel.


Am I to understand that the mixing would have to be done at the point of sale, or could it be mixed and be transported from the refinery?

One nice thing about ethanol is that it's hydroscopic, meaning it would suck up any moisture in the tank.
It just seems to me that a 10% reduction of gasoline consumption would be a worthwhile effort, even if there were subsidies involved.

[Dr Caleb]

I've read a couple articles that say that say that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol that it gives back. Everyone wants to talk about Brazil and how they make ethanol from sugar cane. Nobody wants to talk about the demand for sugar cane is causing farmers to destroy the rain forest at an even faster rate.

Ultimately hydrogen is probably the way to go but, we are still far away from that.

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=38601

Alcohol does not cost more in energy to produce than it makes. Most of those 'studies' neglect the energy derived from the sun. Alcohol can be produced by perennial grasses that can be seeded, then 'mowed' with no other intervention.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/06/8367959/index.htm

And alcohol can be turned into hydrogen directly, using a catalyst.

http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/2/6

And the thing that mystifies me, is the technology exists to create a 'clean' nuclear reactor, but it's illegal!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/china.html

My next home, I'm thinking with the high cost of natural gas, that I'll install a geothermal heating system.

http://www.earthenergy.ca/dir.html

[Leadfoot281]

My neighbor runs geo-thermal in his new house. You'll love it. I have an outdoor wood boiler. It was far more economical to install in an old house like mine. I haven't paid a heat bill in three years. Sure I spend a week in the woods with my chainsaw every fall, but hey, it's free heat and free hot water!

My friend who sold me the Wood boiler built a stile for his. He produced several hundred gallons of ethanol with it. Since the stove maintains a steady temp of 200degrees (or what ever you set it at below 212) there was no cost for him to produce the ethanol. (it actually heated his house and water, while he made the ethanol!).

His wife didn't like the 500 gallon stainless steel bulk tank full of ethanol 30 feet from her door so he had to quit.

His plan was to sell stile kits to everyone that bought a boiler from him. Then he could stop by and load up the ethanol. Today, he's working on converting a 300 I-6 Ford truck motor to run on ethanol. (decking the head and block for more compression, and modifiying the factory one barrel carb). If there is an easier engine to convert to ethanol, I haven't found it.

We get an extra .05/bushel of corn due to the local ethanol plant (only because it's local). Now I have 4 payments left on my Marauder...:D

Would you stop going to work for $2/hr? That's what I thought! It pays more to go to work, even for us farmers.

Feel free to criticize farmers...just don't do it with your mouth full.

[dwasson]

There's a long american tradition of turning corn into ethanol My Unce Bill went to prison for that ... twice.

Check this out. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_rebellion)

[rayjay]

FWIW, a ethanol plant is being built on the site of the former Miller brewery in Fulton, NY. 10% ethanol/gas mixture is being used to lower emissions in northeast cities that have a pollution problem. The down side is that its not as efficent, lower MPG. The upside is its cleaner, produces jobs for US citizens, renewable, ect... Since the dimise of the family farm, we have a lot of unused farm land in my county alone. Imagine how much nationwide. IMHO big oil will not allow it to happen when they are making billions and billions in profit.

[Mike Poore]

Learning lots of good stuff here, guy, thanks. Different prospectives based upon regon and economy provide interesting and thoughtful discussion.
Um, whoever said there was an issue with alcohol freezing is wrong. Without looking it up, I can't give you a number, but whatever temperature, or lack of it, that will freeze 100% ETOH, is not consistant with life as we know it.
BTW, 100% ETOH is not possible without expensive processing. My guess is, they're talking 95%.

Here's another interesting sidebar: There's a proposal for an ethanol plant in Franklin Co. PA, at the shut down Letterkenny Ordinance Depot, and I see signs all over: STOP THE ETHANOL PLANT! and NO ETHANOL HERE. Anyone want to venture a guess what that's all about?:dunno:

BTW, I like the way farmers do things; we should put them in charge of the country for a while, and send that bunch of lying weasel lawyers in Washington City, packing.

[dwasson]

BTW, I like the way farmers do things; we should put them in charge of the country for a while, and send that bunch of lying weasel lawyers in Washington City, packing.

If you put my Uncle Jody in charge he'll rob us blind.

[MIDNITEMARAUDER]

I think Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer should be consulted on this topic!

[duhtroll]

I didn't say alcohol - I said ethanol. It's a cold start issue with E85 - a caveat to using E85 year round in many parts of the USA:

E100 alone (or even E85) is right out for year-round use.

From wikipedia:

At inlet air temperatures below 15 C (59 F), it is likewise not possible to start the typical internal combustion engine on pure ethanol (E100); for cold engine starts, starting the engine on gasoline and then transitioning to E100 can be done. Similarly, for starting a vehicle on E85 summer blend in extremely cold weather, it is likewise required to add additional gasoline during at least the starting of the engine, before transitioning to burning the E85 summer blend. In practice, it is easier simply to add more pure gasoline to the fuel tank when extremely cold weather is expected, prior to the arrival of the cold weather, to avoid cold engine start difficulties.


Learning lots of good stuff here, guy, thanks. Different prospectives based upon regon and economy provide interesting and thoughtful discussion.
Um, whoever said there was an issue with alcohol freezing is wrong. Without looking it up, I can't give you a number, but whatever temperature, or lack of it, that will freeze 100% ETOH, is not consistant with life as we know it.
BTW, 100% ETOH is not possible without expensive processing. My guess is, they're talking 95%.

Here's another interesting sidebar: There's a proposal for an ethanol plant in Franklin Co. PA, at the shut down Letterkenny Ordinance Depot, and I see signs all over: STOP THE ETHANOL PLANT! and NO ETHANOL HERE. Anyone want to venture a guess what that's all about?:dunno:

BTW, I like the way farmers do things; we should put them in charge of the country for a while, and send that bunch of lying weasel lawyers in Washington City, packing.

[Leadfoot281]

I'd vote for a farmer. As long he (or she) isn't another peanut farmer!

I had a chance to get in on an ethanol plant. They needed a minimum $25,000 investment and had to raise half the $64,000,000 construction cost. The profit rolls in after they start selling ethanol.

My neighbor got in on it. I bought the Marauder instead. He sold his share four years later for $111,000. If I had gone in on the deal, I'd be driving a Ford GT today...

There's another ethanol plant going up, someplace north of me, near Fargo I think. I don't understand why anyone would oppose an ethanol plant. They don't stink or create pollution, as far as I know.

[Mike Poore]

[quote=duhtroll]I didn't say alcohol - I said ethanol. It's a cold start issue with E85 - a caveat to using E85 year round in many parts of the USA:
quote]

Ethanol and ETOH are the same thing. Sorry, it's Dr Science coming at you with lab jargon. Now the gumment is giving it numbers, I see, to further confuse the issue. Normally in lab parlance, ethanol (ETOH) is called alcohol, and usually by the percentage of the solution in water: eg 70% alcohol. or simply 70%, and everyone knows what you're talking about. Also the 100% Ethanol is used in reagents and always referred to as Ethanol

In hospitals and such, they call alcohol swabs, disinfectant & such Alcohol, as well, but in that case it's Isopropal alcohol, or in the old days, isoproponal. Then, there's wood alcohol, Methanol and a host of other compounds with extra carbons here and there. Confusing, you bet.

Otherwise I didn't realize you were talking about venturi freezing, or carb icing which would certainly be a major issue with starting a cold engine running straight alcohol, (ethanol)

[Mike Poore]

I don't understand why anyone would oppose an ethanol plant. They don't stink or create pollution, as far as I know.

It's really funny, because Letterkenny Army Ordinance Depot was just that, a huge facility where they stored BOMBS ....big ones. Tactical Nukes & such. It's hard to comprehend why anyone living within 20 miles of the place wouldn't have been raising hell about those bombs, except they all worked there and collected nice pay checks from Uncle Sam. ;)

[duhtroll]

Sorry Mike, but as logic would dictate, all ethanol is alcohol, but the reverse is not true . . .

Otherwise I've been really misusing some of that stuff. ;)


[quote=duhtroll]I didn't say alcohol - I said ethanol. It's a cold start issue with E85 - a caveat to using E85 year round in many parts of the USA:
quote]

Ethanol and ETOH are the same thing. Sorry, it's Dr Science coming at you with lab jargon. Now the gumment is giving it numbers, I see, to further confuse the issue. Normally in lab parlance, ethanol (ETOH) is called alcohol, and usually by the percentage of the solution in water: eg 70% alcohol. or simply 70%, and everyone knows what you're talking about. Also the 100% Ethanol is used in reagents and always referred to as Ethanol

In hospitals and such, they call alcohol swabs, disinfectant & such Alcohol, as well, but in that case it's Isopropal alcohol, or in the old days, isoproponal. Then, there's wood alcohol, Methanol and a host of other compounds with extra carbons here and there. Confusing, you bet.

Otherwise I didn't realize you were talking about venturi freezing, or carb icing which would certainly be a major issue with starting a cold engine running straight alcohol, (ethanol)

[hitchhiker]

My neighbor runs geo-thermal in his new house. You'll love it. I have an outdoor wood boiler. It was far more economical to install in an old house like mine. I haven't paid a heat bill in three years. Sure I spend a week in the woods with my chainsaw every fall, but hey, it's free heat and free hot water!

My friend who sold me the Wood boiler built a stile for his. He produced several hundred gallons of ethanol with it. Since the stove maintains a steady temp of 200degrees (or what ever you set it at below 212) there was no cost for him to produce the ethanol. (it actually heated his house and water, while he made the ethanol!).

His wife didn't like the 500 gallon stainless steel bulk tank full of ethanol 30 feet from her door so he had to quit.

His plan was to sell stile kits to everyone that bought a boiler from him. Then he could stop by and load up the ethanol. Today, he's working on converting a 300 I-6 Ford truck motor to run on ethanol. (decking the head and block for more compression, and modifiying the factory one barrel carb). If there is an easier engine to convert to ethanol, I haven't found it.

We get an extra .05/bushel of corn due to the local ethanol plant (only because it's local). Now I have 4 payments left on my Marauder...:D

Would you stop going to work for $2/hr? That's what I thought! It pays more to go to work, even for us farmers.

Feel free to criticize farmers...just don't do it with your mouth full.

I like my ethanol in Margaritas every Friday evening!

:D

Can I just run a long straw from the gas tank and fuel myself at the same time? Can you also run a car off of Agave liquor? (tequila)

;)

[dwasson]

Can I just run a long straw from the gas tank and fuel myself at the same time? Can you also run a car off of Agave liquor? (tequila)

;)

You could, but who needs a car that throws up and starts fights with bikers?

[Leadfoot281]

I could probably give you folks some more detailed info on his wood boiler-stile set up but, in all honesty, I tried to know as little as possible on some of his "projects".

Right now 93 octane is $2.83 at Kwik Trip, and E85 is $2.43 at the same store. Not much of a deal in my opinion.

Minnesota Governor Tim Palentry is busy answering questions on the ever increasing price of E85. To make a long story short, supply and demand.

There is a local farmer/celebrity that built Cale Yarboroughs 1970 stock car engine. He still owns the car, I sat in it once as a kid when his museum was open. I'm not going to give out his name here (he's in his eighties now) but he built an alcohol powered 1966 Ford Ranchero. He had job offers flood in from Detroit but wouldn't leave Minnesota. The local newspaper ran a story on the car a few years back. In it he claimed the car ran just fine on Vodka.

Tequila? I'm not so sure I'd try it. The Ranchero might wake up parked next to a '74 Chrysler Imperial.

[hitchhiker]

I could probably give you folks some more detailed info on his wood boiler-stile set up but, in all honesty, I tried to know as little as possible on some of his "projects".

Right now 93 octane is $2.83 at Kwik Trip, and E85 is $2.43 at the same store. Not much of a deal in my opinion.

Minnesota Governor Tim Palentry is busy answering questions on the ever increasing price of E85. To make a long story short, supply and demand.

There is a local farmer/celebrity that built Cale Yarboroughs 1970 stock car engine. He still owns the car, I sat in it once as a kid when his museum was open. I'm not going to give out his name here (he's in his eighties now) but he built an alcohol powered 1966 Ford Ranchero. He had job offers flood in from Detroit but wouldn't leave Minnesota. The local newspaper ran a story on the car a few years back. In it he claimed the car ran just fine on Vodka.

Tequila? I'm not so sure I'd try it. The Ranchero might wake up parked next to a '74 Chrysler Imperial.

My Rancheros usually behave themselves unless I'm driving.

:D

[rayjay]

Going to 10% ethanol blend across the country would put a real dent in dependance on foreign oil. Problem is getting the infrastucture up and running. This is not going to happen tomorrow.

[Mike Poore]

Going to 10% ethanol blend across the country would put a real dent in dependance on foreign oil. Problem is getting the infrastucture up and running. This is not going to happen tomorrow.

THAT's what I was wondering about. So ...what are the roadblocks?

[quote: duhtroll]"""Sorry Mike, but as logic would dictate, all ethanol is alcohol, but the reverse is not true . . .

Otherwise I've been really misusing some of that stuff. ;)""""[quote:]
:laugh:

It's like saying "Single Malt" and "4 Roses" in the same breath.