Headers

[Constable]

I'm sure this has probably been discussed at length, but I have a few questions to pose to some of the more knowledgable folks here at MM.net. Basically, I don't want to spend $750 on a set of headers from JDM / Kooks. And you can all be DAM sure I'm not spending over $1,000 for the EXACT SAME headers from SHM (yes, SHM actually bought headers through JDM and now offer them for about $300 more... odd huh??)

I'm thinking that if a pair of FMS shorty headers can fit nicely in a cobra engine compartment... why not in a MM? We MUST have more room to work with than a Cobra.

If it's not the room... then what exactly would be blocking the path of a set of these bad boys? And if it can be done, then why hasn't it been tried yet?

I figure if I use an FMS header that's designed for that motor (basically) then they really can't void anything on the warranty... it's a Ford built part, right?

I dunno... someone get back to me. Maybe I'm just doin a lil wishful thinkin.

[TAF]

Call Dennis, he has some shorty headers ready to go...

[SergntMac]

The exploration of headers has been an on-going project for some time, you're behind in your reading.

Dennis Reinhart offered a set of full length headers late last summer, a custom build and pricey, but worth it if you're into serious perfromance. He would need a volume order to bring the price down, and truthfully, most of us are not that serious.

As you know, Sean Hyland also offered full length headers, also pricey, and requiring a major overhaul of the entire exhaust system, including non OEM tips (back then, we couldn't get replacement Megs tips). Sean's goof, was that his promise of 25 HP from adding his headers to the MM wasn't backed up. His testing was done on one of his custom stroker motors, and on an engine dyno. Bench numbers don't mean squat to me.

As I post this, Dennis is working on fitting a set of shorties in place, but it's not a clean direct fit bolt-on as you suggest. And, the actual performance gain hast yet to be measured, it's work in progress. Read up on all the Reinhart posts for more.

Personally (IMHO) I'm not convinced that headers will make that much of a difference here. Seems that everything you do to the exhaust system provides a HP gain in the higher RPMs, but at the expense of torque in the lower RPMs. That's not a trade off I'm happy about. This 4200 lb/281 CID beast needs all the power it can get down low, and it needs to manage that power as best it can below 3500 RPM. That's why 4:10 gears work so well as part of the Stage I mods, and the Stallion Torque Converter is a must have in Stage II.

The MM has thrown us some curves. Customary and accepted mods we often consider when trying to get more performance of of any car, just don't seem to work that well on an MM. For months now, folks here have been crying for a cold air kit and nothing has been developed. Why is that?

One reason is that the car is still too rare in numbers for the manfacturers to spend the R&D money without a promise of a decent return on that investment and who can blame them?

Another explanation is that there isn't much to improve upon.

Our factory cold air path seems more than adequate as it is, it just needs a larger air scoop before the filter box. When someone designs that larger scoop and produces it in molded injected plastic that we can bolt or tape into place, they will make some decent, and honest money because that's all we need. More fresh air into the filter box.

I look at it this way, Sean Hyland, Kenny Brown, Dennis Reinhart, Triology, and others, are in the business of making money by building high performance cars and accessories. If they dare sell us a mod that doesn't have a clear benefit and a decent bang-for-the-buck pay off, they're out of business, and fast too. I'm sure any one of then could package a cold air kit in a few days, and we would jump on it. But, down the road, when we prove it to be a rip-off, they're done.

This is why I hold to the principle that if there was a worth while performance mod they could sell us, they would. The absence of a cold air kit is telling. Even K&N was shy about producing a "performance" filter for the MM, because the actual performance gain has not been proven. Okay, we got a filter number now, but it's not for a filter specifically developed for the MM, its just a filter from another application that fits good. Moreover, it doesn't necessarilly provide any true performance gain and K&N knows that, though having a filter, and a part number from K&N is comforting for many here.

As for your question on warranty issues, Mad 3R's experience is an eye opener. Seems that none of us can turn screw one on this car without LM backing away with lame excuses. As far as I am concerned, I don't have a warranty on my MM unless it's a TSB. Mods are risky, take the risk you're comfortable with...IMHO.

[Warpath]

The trick Sarge is how the gain is advertized. K&N states up to X hp gain. The filter change for me is more mental than physical. I feel like it should make a difference. So, I bought one. But, I don't know for sure. Plus, such a small gain (such as ~5hp) is difficult to measure accurately. Dyno measurements vary measurement to measurement and could vary more than 5 hp. Therefore, unless you measure a statistically significant number of vehicles (at least 30), you won't know for sure what the actual gain is. Of course, for large gain items such as nitrous or blowers, the gain is pretty obvious.

Getting back to headers, Bassani has just released mid length headers for Mustangs. Maybe they'll fit MMs.

http://www.bassani.com/default.cfm?fuseaction=catalog .productreleasefor'03cobra

http://www.bassani.com/images/4.6L%20headers.png

[Constable]

What spiked my interest in starting this thread was reading Dennis' post about the shorty's that are in development. I also was looking through the MAC Performance site to order a set of mufflers.

There I came across one of their freshly released products --- "Stubby Headers". They appear to be an equal-length style, but smaller than Shortys.

I said to myself, "Self... these look small enough to be stock manifolds. They might fit!" But I'm probably wrong.

I thank all of you for your input.

[FordNut]

My understanding is that the Cobra shorty header flanges interfere with the MM frame rails. Those mid-length headers move the flanges so they could possibly work. I'm not sure that I would go with big-tube primaries due to loss of low rpm torque. 1-1/2" preferred to 1-5/8" max for the small displacement engine in a heavyweight car.

[looking97233]

My thoughts,

The problem with the mod motors has always been getting air into them, not getting air out. I see putting headers on a N/A MM as a loss of power. You may have a gain at 4500+rpm, but down low you will suffer. Now then, with one of the superchargers being made available, everything changes. Dennis is working on this, why not wait and see what he comes up with? I would want to see the dyno sheets from idle to 6000rpm, then we can know where the gain is and where the loss is.

[SergntMac]

Agreed Looking, we're talking about tweakin the N/A 4.6L. Everything changes when you supercharge, it's a whole different program. Therefore, if supercharging is in your future (it's not in mine) I suggest you start with the supercharging of your choice on a bone stock car, and dive into other mods (gear, TC, headers) as you need to, in order to manage your new power.

When I read the performance specs on the Trilogy roots style kit on bone stock MM, I was really impressed. Then I realized that I have a lot of mods in place that would have to go, so, my advice is, decide what you want to do with the supercharging first, then mod on accordingly.

I'm seeing this header thing from another point of view. Dennis has developed full length headers, that's done. He's working on shorties, and there is your clue.

If there was something even slightly compatable with our MMs, why would they need to be developed? Doesn't this say, in a way, that off the shelf parts from other cars will not fit?

Of course, here is that "gain" question again, headers will provide a performance gain, but is it the kind of performance that will benefit our MMs? I don't want to lose low end torque for high RPM HP, this car is too heavy for that. Gaining 20 Hp at 5000 RPM is good, no question on that. But, do I want 20 HP to cost me 35 FtLb of torque at 2000 RPM? No, absolutely not. Torque is what moves the car, HP is the manner in which we measure that caopability...IMHO.

[mensrea]

One of the large header companies developed a set of headers, but was having tunability issues with them... I am waiting on an update of how things turned out. I would be interested to see what Dennis gets together.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Ask and you shall recieve.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2828&goto=newpost

[rurumon]

has anyone thought of making a cam package that would give us more grunt at lower rpm?

Dennis- That X pipe looks amazing! cant wait to slap it on!

[LincMercLover]

You wanna pay for FOUR cams?!?! :eek:

[rurumon]

if it moves that odd torque band a little south in the RPM department, why not?

I mean, regrinds for four cams wont be to rediculous to price, its the installation thats a real pain.

[SergntMac]

It's cheaper, and I mean a lot cheaper, to schedule a Team Ford power tune. Those guys from FordChip.com know how to tweak the MM system. According to my last dyno, I'm pushing 250 ftlbs. of torque to the ground at 2000 RPM, and at 3500 RPM, 276 ftlb. Is this "south" enough?

[Dennis Reinhart]

Originally posted by SergntMac
It's cheaper, and I mean a lot cheaper, to schedule a Team Ford power tune. Those guys from FordChip.com know how to tweak the MM system. According to my last dyno, I'm pushing 250 ftlbs. of torque to the ground at 2000 RPM, and at 3500 RPM, 276 ftlb. Is this "south" enough?

This is true but I have those files now so, yes its always better with a direct dyno tune for those that cannot get there the chip or flash is the next best thing.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Dennis Reinhart
This is true but I have those files now so, yes its always better with a direct dyno tune for those that cannot get there the chip or flash is the next best thing.

Well...Now her ya go, from the Man himself. Bravo, Dennis, and thanks!

To you newcommers who get the updated programming from Dennis...You're welcome.

[WolfeBros]

That is just what I needed to push me over the top to finally get
the 4:10's and a reburn. Dennis I am calling you this week buddy.
:D