View Full Version : FR500 heads completely assembled $3299...
...from MMR. That sounds pretty reasonable to me, what do others think?
They claim it will fit the stock intake fine, but they recommend porting the intake.
I don't plan on getting these anytime soon, but it is nice to know they are available.
Anyone else want to jump on one of these.
Maybe we can get a group buy? :D
ctrlraven
07-10-2006, 01:21 PM
What's the performance outlook like for a non-s/c and a s/c MM?
KillJoy
07-10-2006, 01:29 PM
That is over 1/2 way to a SuperCharger.....any of them!
I am sure you WOULD NOT get 1/2 the power from these as you would, even with a conservative tune, any of the s/c choices.
I would say....save the $$$ and buy a blower.... unless you like staying n/a.
KillJoy
SergntMac
07-10-2006, 03:17 PM
IMHO, this isn't a deal for any Marauder owner, supercharged, or, N/A.
There is some mythology on the FR 500 heads involved here, but it predates our engine design. The FR 500 heads were developed for the Ford Racing project car of 2002. This head design and it's flow characteristics are a remarkable improvement for the basic 4.6L DOHC mod motor from '96 through '01. But, this development predates our engines.
The production heads that come stock on all '03 and up Mustang Cobra (s/c), Mach I, Lincoln Aviator, and Mercury Marauder engines, are FR 500 design heads, they just need some attention to detail, and some improved parts.
What you need is some professional "clean up" in the combustion chamber and exhaust port OEM castings
Add valve seats made of of harder metals (OEM are powdered metal).
Add higher rate valve springs.
Add thicker, and more durable valve spring seats (shims).
Add stronger spring keepers.
All of which won't collapse, or, bind above 5500 RPM, which is well below the power potential of a 4.6L DOHC mod motor. In OEM form, our heads/valves/cams haven't begun to breath as they can, they are just jogging through the park. Been here, did this, and just two months ago.
Sent my stock Marauder head/valve/cams assembly out to Mike Halley at High Flow Heads, and he cleaned everything up right nicely. Mike replaced the mentioned components, and checked everything to meet factory specs...1650. round trip, add your shipping.
IMHO, save your money, you already own the parts. When you get serious about building some real power from your stock Marauder engine, budget under 2K in the build and buy yourself the power advantage of having your Marauder stuff rebuilt correctly by a specialist. You won't be disappointed, or, broke.
Just my .02C, carry on gents...
EDIT: reference to exhaust port should read intake port...Sorry.
If you are comparing dollars to HP then no one would pay 1000+ for headers, except for the sound.
That is over 1/2 way to a SuperCharger.....any of them!
I am sure you WOULD NOT get 1/2 the power from these as you would, even with a conservative tune, any of the s/c choices.
I would say....save the $$$ and buy a blower.... unless you like staying n/a.
KillJoy
If you got your heads and all components done for 1650, you got a heck of a deal, as decent parts alone are almost that much. Can you get a deal like that now?
How much HP did you gain Mac? Did you do a pull by any chance? Do you know how they flow after the work compared to the FR500 heads? That would be good data to have to make a real comparison.
I would not recommend these on a stock motor unless you have the cash to burn. If you have a motor with good rods you can rev these a little higher then the stock components. They should be good for 40-50 hp on a 4.6, more on a motor bored and stroked, and even more on a motor with a PA.
If you run a high compression motor and a SC, they should lower your boost with the same pulley and allow you to again raise your boost with a smaller pulley. So basically, if you are at the theoretical 15 psi limit on a 10:1 motor you have to start looking at inlet and exhaust restrictions.
If you are building the ultimate NA motor, they are also a good choice.
And this is a very good deal for these heads for those who are looking for them.
BTW, are you claiming MMR is not a specialist?
IMHO, this isn't a deal for any Marauder owner, supercharged, or, N/A.
There is some mythology on the FR 500 heads involved here, but it predates our engine design. The FR 500 heads were developed for the Ford Racing project car of 2002. This head design and it's flow characteristics are a remarkable improvement for the basic 4.6L DOHC mod motor from '96 through '01. But, this development predates our engines.
The production heads that come stock on all '03 and up Mustang Cobra (s/c), Mach I, Lincoln Aviator, and Mercury Marauder engines, are FR 500 design heads, they just need some attention to detail, and some improved parts.
What you need is some professional "clean up" in the combustion chamber and exhaust port OEM castings
Add valve seats made of of harder metals (OEM are powdered metal).
Add higher rate valve springs.
Add thicker, and more durable valve spring seats (shims).
Add stronger spring keepers.
All of which won't collapse, or, bind above 5500 RPM, which is well below the power potential of a 4.6L DOHC mod motor. In OEM form, our heads/valves/cams haven't begun to breath as they can, they are just jogging through the park. Been here, did this, and just two months ago.
Sent my stock Marauder head/valve/cams assembly out to Mike Halley at High Flow Heads, and he cleaned everything up right nicely. Mike replaced the mentioned components, and checked everything to meet factory specs...1650. round trip, add your shipping.
IMHO, save your money, you already own the parts. When you get serious about building some real power from your stock Marauder engine, budget under 2K in the build and buy yourself the power advantage of having your Marauder stuff rebuilt correctly by a specialist. You won't be disappointed, or, broke.
Just my .02C, carry on gents...
snowbird
07-11-2006, 03:51 AM
... ... ...
The production heads that come stock on all '03 and up Mustang Cobra (s/c), Mach I, Lincoln Aviator, and Mercury Marauder engines, are FR 500 design heads, they just need some attention to detail, and some improved parts.
... ... ...
What you need is some professional "clean up" in the combustion chamber and exhaust port OEM castings
Just my .02C, carry on gents...
I agree with Sergntmac on this. If you could put your hands on the december 2004 issue of 5.0 Mustang magazine, they did a comparo of 6 stocks DOHC heads and ported those 6 afterwards. Their conclusions about our heads: "By all accounts, these are the best all-around modular Four-Valve heads currently available. They combine the exceptional flow of a slightly larger FR500 intake port with a gigantic, new rectangular exhaust port."
In the same article, flow test at 500 inches, intake and exhaust flow:
Stock FR500 : 291 cfm - 192 cfm
Stock 2003 DOHC : 266 cfm - 175 cfm
Still the same article, ported at Houston performance:
Ported FR500 : 330 cfm - 219 cfm
Ported 2003 DOHC : 331 cfm - 229 cfm
How much will Houston performance charge for a fully worked set with upgraded cams/valves etc? Get a solid quote and post it for a comparison.
I agree with Sergntmac on this. If you could put your hands on the december 2004 issue of 5.0 Mustang magazine, they did a comparo of 6 stocks DOHC heads and ported those 6 afterwards. Their conclusions about our heads: "By all accounts, these are the best all-around modular Four-Valve heads currently available. They combine the exceptional flow of a slightly larger FR500 intake port with a gigantic, new rectangular exhaust port."
In the same article, flow test at 500 inches, intake and exhaust flow:
Stock FR500 : 291 cfm - 192 cfm
Stock 2003 DOHC : 266 cfm - 175 cfm
Still the same article, ported at Houston performance:
Ported FR500 : 330 cfm - 219 cfm
Ported 2003 DOHC : 331 cfm - 229 cfm
snowbird
07-11-2006, 09:28 AM
How much will Houston performance charge for a fully worked set with upgraded cams/valves etc? Get a solid quote and post it for a comparison.
Juno,
I'm not in the market for an upgraded set of heads right now. I just posted facts that i had in my magazines to add to the info of the tread. Fr500 are great heads and (but) so do ours. The facts that once ported both show virtually identical numbers is the argument i wanted to share. Porting either one one should give great results for the ones looking to upgrade in that field. If money is no object, porting any heads will, at some point, give results.
In that magazine article, they went to Houston but a lot more shops could, i guess, do a similar job. I have no opinion good or bad against MMR or Houston performance.
SergntMac
07-11-2006, 09:47 AM
You ask several question, and I'll try to answer them as best and as briefly as I can. First and most important is...
BTW, are you claiming MMR is not a specialist? Certaintly not! And don't lean on it that way. I've done business with MMR, and they are great folks to deal with, with excellent prices and service. However, their target market is the Mustang owner with older 4V DOHC engines, we already own the FR500 design. My advice to seek out a professional, is to get away from the shade tree views of what we need to buy in order to improve performance. The stock Marauder heads are diamonds in the rough, they just need tweaking.
If you got your heads and all components done for 1650, you got a heck of a deal, as decent parts alone are almost that much. Can you get a deal like that now? Yes I can, so can y'all. Seek out a head flow shop in your area, and do some shopping. MMR sells parts, not this type of custom machining. Mike Hally is happy to do mail order business with us, you can reach him at 1.708.396.0505.
As I stated earlier, this upgrade is ideal for the older designs, but not a deal for anyone with an '03 or later 4.6L/5.4L mod motor. The improvement is in the 5 to 10 percent range for us, rather than the 50-60 percent range it produces on older mod motors. The 1650. I spent was half labor, half parts. The parts are new valve seats of non-powdered metals (aluminum-nickle-bronze) with improved "behive" valve springs and retainers from Crower, and harder valve shims to protect the valve spring seat in the head. The OEMs are weak and collapse (which may be the cause of the common complained of "valve tic"). The rest was labor and assembly, valve lapping to match the valve to the new seat, and clean-up of casting excess in the combustion chamber and exhaust ports. Nothing more extravagant than this simple housekeeping, and if you are buying more parts than what I mention here, you're wasting your cash because you already own the best for a street/strip Marauder. Just needs some minor attention to detail.
How much HP did you gain Mac? Did you do a pull by any chance? Do you know how they flow after the work compared to the FR500 heads? That would be good data to have to make a real comparison. Of course I did a few pulls, you think I'm that slow? However, the problem with my back to back comparasion here, is that I've done more than just massage the heads. Sorry, I don't have Mike's SuperFlow data at hand.
My engine build of '04 went south after 13K miles. The "piston-to-piston wall" clearance (.00045) was set too loose from the very beginning, and the pistons rattled around in the bore until the skirts ate up the piston wall. This build produced 525 RWHP with 480 RWTQ with 18 PSI of boost (2.70 pulley). The car was stupid fast, 12.2x on street tires last year. But it also drank oil like a diesel, as much as a quart in 300 miles, with a lot of gas contamination too. It was time to repair the damage, and MMR sold me a repair kit. Manley 9.5:1 .20 over forged pistons and rings, their improved OEM oil pump, and I salvaged my Eagle H-Beam rods and Ford Racing crank from the first build. .20 over repaired the damaged cylinder walls, and other than the head work outlined here, and a .00030 piston-to-wall clearance, not much else was changed. New numbers are 538.8 RWHP, 464.5 RWTQ on 16 PSI of boost (2.95 pulley), just where I want it. Haven't been to the track yet, only 2K on this build, but it is again stupid (and scary) fast.
With respect to flow numbers in general, do some research? There are dozens of publication on the shelves that have charted the difference between the FR500 and '03 Cobra heads (as well as other 2V and 4V comparasions). The truth prevails, the numbers are very very close, and in some cases, identical. This justifies the expense of R&R on the heads, porting and clean-up as I describe here, and replacement of certain parts. It does not support new heads, because the FR500s are not any better than we have now. These investigations by engineers and specialist over time have proven my point, there is no foundation to support spending the money on FR500 heads, if you own a '03 or newer 4V mod motor.
There are even pics of clay molds of all the intake and exhaust ports of all years, you can see the difference over the B heads, and you can see there is no difference between the the FR 500 and the '03 Cobra heads. Look around for Sean Hyland's book from back in '03..."How to Build Max-performance 4.6 Litre Ford Engines"...ISBN 1-884C89-78-X. You don't have to read Hyland's theories or take his advice, just look at his pics and charts, case closed.
If you have a motor with good rods you can rev these a little higher then the stock components. They should be good for 40-50 hp on a 4.6, more on a motor bored and stroked, and even more on a motor with a PA. If you run a high compression motor and a SC, they should lower your boost with the same pulley and allow you to again raise your boost with a smaller pulley. So basically, if you are at the theoretical 15 psi limit on a 10:1 motor you have to start looking at inlet and exhaust restrictions. And this is a very good deal for these heads for those who are looking for them... Sorrry, my friend, this is simply not true.
The 40-50 RWHP gains you mention, are figures from upgrades to older mod motors, the 93-96 Mark VIII, and '96-'98 Cobras with the "B" heads, and the '99-01' "tumble port" heads. As I stated, a tremendous gain, but it depends on where you begin.
On the '03 Cobra design shared with the Mustang Cobra, Marauder, Aviator and Mustang Mach I, there is no such gain and you should not promise that across the board. The only benefit to us in this offering, is when the engine has grenaded with lateral damage to the heads. Then, it may be cheaper to replace than repair.
Our stock compression is 9.8:1, so please note my loss of RWTQ in this mod. This is the case when you open up breathing. Ported intakes, ported heads, larger OD exhaust and all that indeed builds better breathing. With all the right stuff in place, you can can build as much as 1000RWHP @ 10K RPM. However, on a 281 CID mouse motor, this means more HP in the upper RPMS, at the cost of torque in the lower RPMS, and I would not anticipate that a stroker kit to 5.0L would show a radically different response to the mod. This is simple basic science, and with a Roots blower in place, you can take the hit. With a centrifugal blower, you get it back at the top end. In drag racing terms, a slower 1/8 mile car, but a much faster 1/4 mile pass.
I hope this helps clear the air for a Marauder owner. IMHO, MMRs offer is not a value to a Marauder owner. Just my .02C, carry on, gents.
EDIT: reference to exhaust port should read intake port...Sorry.
SergntMac
07-11-2006, 09:56 AM
Oh and BTW...I retained the stock valves and cams. Again, a perfect match for the building of a 500+ RWHP Marauder...
All I asked for was a price. If you want to throw out numbers, compare the costs also.
Juno,
I'm not in the market for an upgraded set of heads right now. I just posted facts that i had in my magazines to add to the info of the tread. Fr500 are great heads and (but) so do ours. The facts that once ported both show virtually identical numbers is the argument i wanted to share. Porting either one one should give great results for the ones looking to upgrade in that field. If money is no object, porting any heads will, at some point, give results.
In that magazine article, they went to Houston but a lot more shops could, i guess, do a similar job. I have no opinion good or bad against MMR or Houston performance.
David Morton
07-11-2006, 11:34 AM
IMO, if you are using or planning on using a forced induction, be it supercharger or turbocharger, the CFM flow of ports only give a minimal increase in power. Where head work is gonna benefit such an engine most is in the area of the combustion chamber so you can tune for the most boost possible. Then (if the bottom end can take it) better springs, seats and valves, in order to up the redline potential of the valvetrain. If your using a turbo, then you can think about porting the exhausts.
On a normally aspirated engine CFM flow matters only if you can use the extra capacity and that would mean you'd have to have a bottom end that can handle 8000+ rpm. Our heads are doing pretty good at 6000 as they are. I'm not a fan of doing this kind of porting mod unless you're racing in a class where N/A is the requirement. For the street, there's a lot more power to be had doing other things that cost less per HP gained, a lot less.
Mac,
You are too funny. A few weeks ago you were claiming that the the FR500 heads were way different then ours and you could not use the cams- valves etc in our heads. And you claimed it was too exspensive to have head work done.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27993
Let's do some numbers. Say you can get the head work done for a 1000 on our heads, I say that is low, but I will use the number you used in the other article. It easily could be much more if there is anything wrong with the stockers. I doubt you can get a full port/polish and assembly for that price.
Good parts. $1500 bucks at least. Yes you could stick with stock parts, but that is not what we are comparing. We are looking at better valves, more aggressive cams etc. These will definitely improve performance, rpm range and reliability.
You would end up with a minimum of $2500 invested.
That is only a $800 difference, if you are lucky.
Plus the time and effort to get your heads there and the down time of your vehicle.
You could set them on the shelf until you decide to do the swap. If you were to go out and buy a used set of heads and do all the work and upgrade all the components to match this, you will spend more money.
Again, This is a good deal on those heads if someone is looking for them.
As I stated earlier, this upgrade is ideal for the older designs, but not a deal for anyone with an '03 or later 4.6L/5.4L mod motor. The improvement is in the 5 to 10 percent range for us, rather than the 50-60 percent range it produces on older mod motors. The 1650. I spent was half labor, half parts. The parts are new valve seats of non-powdered metals (aluminum-nickle-bronze) with improved "behive" valve springs and retainers from Crower, and harder valve shims to protect the valve spring seat in the head. The OEMs are weak and collapse (which may be the cause of the common complained of "valve tic"). The rest was labor and assembly, valve lapping to match the valve to the new seat, and clean-up of casting excess in the combustion chamber and exhaust ports. Nothing more extravagant than this simple housekeeping, and if you are buying more parts than what I mention here, you're wasting your cash because you already own the best for a street/strip Marauder. Just needs some minor attention to detail.
First, it will be more then 5-10% improvement. The cam alone will give you more then that.
You got decent results even without the cam and porting, just some clean-up. So imagine what you would do with the full Monty.
Yes, if somone wants to go the inexpensive route, they can do what you did and hopefully get as good a deal and results, but they will not get the same results as the full heads and components.
There are even pics of clay molds of all the intake and exhaust ports of all years, you can see the difference over the B heads, and you can see there is no difference between the the FR 500 and the '03 Cobra heads. Look around for Sean Hyland's book from back in '03..."How to Build Max-performance 4.6 Litre Ford Engines"...ISBN 1-884C89-78-X. You don't have to read Hyland's theories or take his advice, just look at his pics and charts, case closed. Sorrry, my friend, this is simply not true.
Yes I have the book and I have seen the pictures. No our heads are not the same as the FR500. Yes, some similarities, but there is a big difference in the shape and angles of the ports. It is not just a little porting to get ours to outflow them buy a little margin, it is a lot of porting.
The 40-50 RWHP gains you mention, are figures from upgrades to older mod motors, the 93-96 Mark VIII, and '96-'98 Cobras with the "B" heads, and the '99-01' "tumble port" heads. As I stated, a tremendous gain, but it depends on where you begin.
On the '03 Cobra design shared with the Mustang Cobra, Marauder, Aviator and Mustang Mach I, there is no such gain and you should not promise that across the board. The only benefit to us in this offering, is when the engine has grenaded with lateral damage to the heads. Then, it may be cheaper to replace than repair..
With the whole package you can see those gains. People are getting more then 5 or 10% with the cams alone. Yes, we have excellent heads. But this package has better heads/cams/valves and components. Again, you did well with your deal, but I would expect much better results from this combination, probably twice as much improvemant because you did not get a full port or cams and valves. So, it would be the same $ to HP as yours.
Edit: This is crazy anyway because as you have stated and I agree, our heads in stock form will make crazy power with any FI. Like I said earlier in this thread, JMHO head work is really for someone going with the ultimate NA motor, has a head problem, wants Monster power or just has too much time on their hands or money in their pocket. :)
Second Edit: BTW, I do not mean anything personal by this, you are a wealth of knowledge, but Ido enjoy a spirited discussion.
SergntMac
07-11-2006, 02:50 PM
Okay, my last words on this, I promise. I know some of y'all don't like long posts, sorry...
Mac, You are too funny. A few weeks ago you were claiming that the the FR500 heads were way different then ours and you could not use the cams- valves etc in our heads. And you claimed it was too exspensive to have head work done.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27993 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27993 [/quote)
Naughty juno...Switching topics, eh? It's okay though, there isn't any conflict in my position, on either topic.
That thread contains my views of the head/valve/cam discussion from a different point of view, i.e., installing the FR 500 spring/cam/valve kit on Marauder heads. My thoughts are clearly stated on that topic, and they do not conflict with anything I have posted in this thread. That deal is not financially sound for us owners, neither is this present discussion of the FR500 head as a full assembly, a deal.
Installing cams alone on a used Marauder head is a pricey adventure if done right, due to their lack of cam bearings. Installing bearings is the only correction to this, if long term duarability is on your list of concerns. If you're going to dump the car in a year, shop for aftermarket cams (Crower is good) and bolt them in. I also said the remaining components are not interchangable between the heads without proper machine work and they are not, but you would prolly get away with it for a few dyno pulls, if you want to do things that way. I do not.
Let's do some numbers. Say you can get the head work done for a 1000 on our heads, I say that is low, but I will use the number you used in the other article. It easily could be much more if there is anything wrong with the stockers. I doubt you can get a full port/polish and assembly for that price. Good parts. $1500 bucks at least. Yes you could stick with stock parts, but that is not what we are comparing. We are looking at better valves, more aggressive cams etc. These will definitely improve performance, rpm range and reliability. You would end up with a minimum of $2500 invested. That is only a $800 difference, if you are lucky. Hey, 800 buck is 800 bucks, right? Again I disagree. Call Mike Hally for his pricing, or, go shopping around your town. Let's not start the "if" stuff either, all discussion are based on a healthy engine, and the owner is looking to build some power. If you have to replace a damaged head, the FR500 combo may indeed be a good deal. If not, it isn't.
I missed your mention that we were discussing more aggressive cams, more sofisticated valves, ect. I thought we were talking about the bang for the buck value of the mod, and MMR's price of 3299. If you want to pull out all the stops, Mike can do a set of full blown custom heads for around 5K, parts included, so can Fox Lake. But, this isn't what I was discussing. Bang for the buck on what's on the table, leave the maybe out of it.
If you are suggesting that the FR500 stuff will be better than modding OEM heads to any degree, this goes against the facts known to date. Sean Hyland, page 40..."The '03 Cobra intake port suffers again from factory bowl machining. With a cutter, open the seat up to match the factory bowl macnining, and work on the short side radius to improve the transition'.
Page 41..."The '03 Cobra differs from all previous 4V designs. The round section of the port transitions into a square port section at the end of the turn from the valve. this results in a port that outflows all other designs, including the FR500 race head."
Plus the time and effort to get your heads there and the down time of your vehicle. Ahhh c'mon now...The R&R costs is equal for all the mods in consideration, let's not fold it in just yet.
If you're saying you can save some time by buying a second set of heads and doing the swap in one move, I agree. Shipping heads out for custom work will cost time, yes, but what does this have to do with the performance discussion? BTW, my labor charge on head assembly by Mike was listed as 300 bucks, a flat fee. But, don't we paying this in the MMR offering too? Or, are they putting the stuff together before shipping?
You could set them on the shelf until you decide to do the swap. If you were to go out and buy a used set of heads and do all the work and upgrade all the components to match this, you will spend more money.
Again, This is a good deal on those heads if someone is looking for them. I disagree, and my rationale has been stated, no need to cover it again.
First, it will be more then 5-10% improvement. The cam alone will give you more then that. You got decent results even without the cam and porting, just some clean-up. So imagine what you would do with the full Monty. I think you're stepping outside the parameters of this discussion again, no "ifs" were included in my remarks, I'm just sharing facts.
Yes, if somone wants to go the inexpensive route, they can do what you did and hopefully get as good a deal and results, but they will not get the same results as the full heads and components.
Yes I have the book and I have seen the pictures. No our heads are not the same as the FR500. Yes, some similarities, but there is a big difference in the shape and angles of the ports. It is not just a little porting to get ours to outflow them buy a little margin, it is a lot of porting. Whoa...sure it's the same book? Well, okay, must be we interpret what is seen, and what the charts mean differently. "Glass is half full/half empty" thing...
With the whole package you can see those gains. People are getting more then 5 or 10% with the cams alone. Yes, we have excellent heads. But this package has better heads/cams/valves and components. Again, you did well with your deal, but I would expect much better results from this combination, probably twice as much improvemant because you did not get a full port or cams and valves. So, it would be the same $ to HP as yours. Who are your "people"? That sounds like "I know a guy who's wife's uncle installed..."
I know of two Marauder owners here who have installed FR500 heads and valve/spring/cam kit, and I have yet to see any solid data on the gains. Master reports good stuff, but it wasn't a clean "one mod only" install, he added Kook's headers too, picked up 60 RWHP I believe. How much of that was the headers, which some folks (Logan) stated were worth 50 RWHP alone. I'm confused. The other member hasn't been to a dyno yet, and he doesn't have any "before" numbers anyway. If I have missed any other 411, please update me with some stats, not generalizations on percentages heard about somewhere.
Now you're saying that the FR500 heads and valve kit should produce twice the performance gains that I have achieved with a professional overhaul of the stock head, valves and cams. Twice? I'll let the folks here sort that out for themselves.
Edit: This is crazy anyway because as you have stated and I agree, our heads in stock form will make crazy power with any FI. Like I said earlier in this thread, JMHO head work is really for someone going with the ultimate NA motor, has a head problem, wants Monster power or just has too much time on their hands or money in their pocket. :)
Second Edit: BTW, I do not mean anything personal by this, you are a wealth of knowledge, but I do enjoy a spirited discussion. Thank you and likewise, sir. I'm always pleased to make someone chuckle, and I enjoy a spirited discussion as much as the next guy. Nothing personal taken, or, sent your way.
You are drifting from your original question, "is this mod worth it?". Now it's the value of a full blown professional build up. Doubt my cost numbers, or the value of my conservative approach? Call Mike Hally, he'll lay it out for you with some hard facts from his experience. He's a business man too, and will prolly do better with the dollars, with some GB traffic.
It may be worth it to just order new stock head assemblies from Ford, let Mike do his thing and go from there. Used heads in good condition, may be worth 500 each.
The question was "is this deal worth it" and my answer is no. Right out of the Ford Racing catalogue with no breaks, the parts add up to 3289.95, plus assembly and shipping. I couldn't find MMR's deal at their site, but at best (and I'm guessing) they are saving us the cost of assembly. Fine, that's 300 bucks, but the rest of it is no deal.
Folks...The facts are out in the free world, do your research first.
-30-
ctrlraven
07-11-2006, 03:31 PM
The 1650 I spent was half labor, half parts. The parts are new valve seats of non-powdered metals (aluminum-nickle-bronze) with improved "behive" valve springs and retainers from Crower, and harder valve shims to protect the valve spring seat in the head. The OEMs are weak and collapse (which may be the cause of the common complained of "valve tic"). The rest was labor and assembly, valve lapping to match the valve to the new seat, and clean-up of casting excess in the combustion chamber and exhaust ports. Nothing more extravagant than this simple housekeeping, and if you are buying more parts than what I mention here, you're wasting your cash because you already own the best for a street/strip Marauder. Just needs some minor attention to detail. Hmm I thought that valve tic sounds was normal cause I've heard it everyday since I first got the car back in 12/05. Honestly to me $1650 seems like a good deal for what you had done and what beneifits offers. The valve tic sounds, is this something I should have looked at right away? It's not really loud but if I have the hood open or standing right next to the front quarter panels with the hood close I can hear it.
MarauderTJA
07-11-2006, 03:47 PM
IMHO, this isn't a deal for any Marauder owner, supercharged, or, N/A.
There is some mythology on the FR 500 heads involved here, but it predates our engine design. The FR 500 heads were developed for the Ford Racing project car of 2002. This head design and it's flow characteristics are a remarkable improvement for the basic 4.6L DOHC mod motor from '96 through '01. But, this development predates our engines.
The production heads that come stock on all '03 and up Mustang Cobra (s/c), Mach I, Lincoln Aviator, and Mercury Marauder engines, are FR 500 design heads, they just need some attention to detail, and some improved parts.
What you need is some professional "clean up" in the combustion chamber and exhaust port OEM castings
Add valve seats made of of harder metals (OEM are powdered metal).
Add higher rate valve springs.
Add thicker, and more durable valve spring seats (shims).
Add stronger spring keepers.
All of which won't collapse, or, bind above 5500 RPM, which is well below the power potential of a 4.6L DOHC mod motor. In OEM form, our heads/valves/cams haven't begun to breath as they can, they are just jogging through the park. Been here, did this, and just two months ago.
Sent my stock Marauder head/valve/cams assembly out to Mike Halley at High Flow Heads, and he cleaned everything up right nicely. Mike replaced the mentioned components, and checked everything to meet factory specs...1650. round trip, add your shipping.
IMHO, save your money, you already own the parts. When you get serious about building some real power from your stock Marauder engine, budget under 2K in the build and buy yourself the power advantage of having your Marauder stuff rebuilt correctly by a specialist. You won't be disappointed, or, broke.
Just my .02C, carry on gents...
Mac, not to high jac this thread, but have you had any experience with the FR500 cams for our motor?
Mac,
I was not drifting from the original disussion. My whole point has always been that this is a good deal for these fully assembled heads if someone is looking for them. Simple as that. Whenever I come across something like that I want to share in case someone is looking.
You got a good deal and good results on your head work and you were trying to compare that to these heads, but you did not get everything done,
I was trying to compare apples to apples and what it would cost for a complete overhaul and porting of the stock heads to upgrade them to completely equivalent or better internal components as the FR500.
Personally, if I can find a second set of our heads cheap I would like to have them redone and swap over at some point as I am a little concerned about how the exhaust valves will last with the turbo. It may not be a problem as I will be in boost only a small percentage of the time, but who knows for sure?
I know of a few folks who have switched to the FR500 cams in our heads, but they are usually accompanied by other mods and it is hard to get a real number from them also.
Stock FR500 heads are not worth squat.
A ported FR500 with cams is another story.
The guy who did all my current machine work has a set of FR500's on the porting bench right now and I will be happy to share the flow #'s once he is done.
The short turn radius of the intake tract on the FR500 is far superior to our Marauder heads.
Just so you know, a typical port job of MArauder/Cobra heads from this guy nets 320cfm @450lift in the intake and 260cfm@450 lift on the exhaust.
Yes, .450 lift, he is an incredible porter.
SergntMac
07-12-2006, 08:28 AM
Stock FR500 heads are not worth squat.
A ported FR500 with cams is another story.
The guy who did all my current machine work has a set of FR500's on the porting bench right now and I will be happy to share the flow #'s once he is done.
The short turn radius of the intake tract on the FR500 is far superior to our Marauder heads.
Just so you know, a typical port job of MArauder/Cobra heads from this guy nets 320cfm @450lift in the intake and 260cfm@450 lift on the exhaust.
Yes, .450 lift, he is an incredible porter.Well, thank you, Zack.
I need to apoligize to juno, I've made a mistake I didn't catch until just now, and this mistake may have confused him. Now that I have discovered it, it would have confused me too, in his shoes.
After I read Zack's post, I called him for clarification, then went back to the top of this thread. In my post #4, and again in post #10, I identified the exhaust port as needing some clean up. This is a typo, I meant to say intake port, as I did in post #15, Hyland's quote.
My apologies to juno, and to all for my error and the confusion it may have caused us.
Carry on Gents.
No problem Mac.
Zack,
260 is outstanding at .450.
GreekGod
07-12-2006, 12:37 PM
Correct me if you think I'm wrong but flow numbers are just a tool and don't tell the whole story. The torque curve needs to be proven under street driven load and is dependent on a totally matched system, which includes camshafts, tuning (A/F ratio, timing), valve sizes and tract flow.
I want the feel of a big-block torque monster, which may not be possible without a belt or exhaust driven compressor. Is the naturally aspirated OEM Marauder engine close to optimized for maximum average torque? I suspect significant gains from cam and head changes are unlikely with current technology, without raising the powerband, of course.
p.s. perhaps an automatic O/D 6-speed with a 4.57 real axle ratio would be a way to go?
David Morton
07-13-2006, 02:05 PM
I like the way you think, Greek God. For years my understanding of port flow values has been that high numbers aren't good for the lower end of the rpm band. Increasing the cross-sectional area, of an intake port for example, can give more total flow, a good thing at higher rpm's, but can decrease the velocity of the intake charge at lower rpm's and hurt the swirling of the intake charge in the combustion chamber as well as it's inertia, consequently dropping the torque drastically at lower rpm's. Not to ignore the exhaust ports, the inertia of the gasses leaving can also have a negative effect on cyclinder purging and throw out the camshaft's overlap timing design resulting in power loss and even a dangerous tendency to backfire through the intake. In the old days we just upped the idle speed with a single screw to solve that problem. Nowadays with Idle Air Control motors and a computer trying it's best to keep the idle speed as low as possible, just porting your heads can open up a big can of worms. I left out the mistakes that be made, like taking off too much metal hurting structural integrity and more likely, creating cooling problems, hot spots and the like. Head porting isn't something for Bubba to try on his own heads just because his wife got him a Dremel set for Father's Day.
If your gonna flow blueprint your heads, then a lot of other things have to figure into the picture. Here's where an experienced head porter that has done this stuff before is needed. He knows what he can get by with, knows what camshaft to add to the package and all the other stuff you already have installed, like headers, etc. and can do what he knows works on a given setup. Good ones are rare.
I classify head porting along with piston gas porting. It's one of the things you can do to get a little more power, but at a lot of expense and trouble for some power gains at the higher rpm's at the expense of losses at the lower rpm's (normally aspirated), and so porting is for the racing crowd, or guys that have plenty of money to burn, and have a blower or turbo, and so get even smaller high rpm gains but pay no lower rpm penalties.
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