E85 Crown Vic

[dwasson]

Here's (http://www.kicktheoilhabit.org/roadtrip/) a Blog about traveling cross country in an E85 fueled Crown Vic. One benefit to converting a Panther seems obvious. The trunk is large enough to carry extra fuel.

[Vortex]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels and costs $347 per acre, according to Pimentel’s analysis. Thus, even before corn is converted to ethanol, the feedstock costs $1.05 per gallon of ethanol.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42>http://healthandenergy.com/_themes/copy-of-romanesque/rombul1a.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the grain is crushed and fermented. As many as three distillation steps are needed to separate the 8 percent ethanol from the 92 percent water. Additional treatment and energy are required to produce the 99.8 percent pure ethanol for mixing with gasoline. <!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42>http://healthandenergy.com/_themes/copy-of-romanesque/rombul1a.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTU. "Put another way", Pimentel says, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTU".<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42>http://healthandenergy.com/_themes/copy-of-romanesque/rombul1a.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce, compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of gasoline. "That helps explain why fossil fuels-not ethanol-are used to produce ethanol", Pimentel says. "The growers and processors can’t afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn’t afford it, either, if it weren’t for government subsidies to artificially lower the price".<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42>http://healthandenergy.com/_themes/copy-of-romanesque/rombul1a.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Most economic analyses of corn-to-ethanol production overlook the costs of environmental damages, which Pimentel says should add another 23 cents per gallon. "Corn production in the U.S. erodes soil about 12 times faster than the soil can be reformed, and irrigating corn mines groundwater 25 percent faster than the natural recharge rate of ground water. The environmental system in which corn is being produced is being rapidly degraded. Corn should not be considered a renewable resource for ethanol energy production, especially when human food is being converted into ethanol".<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42>http://healthandenergy.com/_themes/copy-of-romanesque/rombul1a.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->The approximately $1 billion a year in current federal and state subsidies (mainly to large corporations) for ethanol production are not the only costs to consumers, the Cornell scientist observes. Subsidized corn results in higher prices for meat, milk and eggs because about 70 percent of corn grain is fed to livestock and poultry in the United States. Increasing ethanol production would further inflate corn prices, Pimentel says, noting: "In addition to paying tax dollars for ethanol subsidies, consumers would be paying significantly higher food prices in the marketplace".<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42>http://healthandenergy.com/_themes/copy-of-romanesque/rombul1a.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->Nickels and dimes aside, some drivers still would rather see their cars fueled by farms in the Midwest than by oil wells in the Middle East, Pimentel acknowledges, so he calculated the amount of corn needed to power an automobile:<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42>http://healthandenergy.com/_themes/copy-of-romanesque/rombul1a.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->The average U.S. automobile, traveling 10,000 miles a year on pure ethanol (not a gasoline-ethanol mix) would need about 852 gallons of the corn-based fuel. This would take 11 acres to grow, based on net ethanol production. This is the same amount of cropland required to feed seven Americans.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><!--msthemelist--><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=baseline width=42>http://healthandenergy.com/_themes/copy-of-romanesque/rombul1a.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><!--mstheme-->If all the automobiles in the United States were fueled with 100 percent ethanol, a total of about 97 percent of U.S. land area would be needed to grow the corn feedstock. Corn would cover nearly the total land area of the United States.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></TD></TR><!--msthemelist--></TBODY></TABLE><!--mstheme-->

[Leadfoot281]

Where did he get those numbers?

There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY it takes 140 gallons of fuel to grow an acre of corn! The real number is closer to 1-1.3 gallons total. The fuel tank on a large row crop tractor holds about 100 gallons and can easily over an acre every 8 minutes.

"140 gallons of fossil fuels costs $347". Where is this fuel coming from and where can I get some? Either this is some seriously out-dated info, or some one is getting some darn cheap fuel! That's $2.47/gallon folks!

For me to plant 360 acres of corn @ $2.47/gallon, burning 140 gallons/acre, equals $124,919.00 in fuel per year! These numbers are so far off, it's bordering on halucinogenic!! :pimp:

550 gallons of ethanol is produced from an acre of corn. Not 328! I'd like to know how many bushells of corn he estimates are produced per acre since that is how corn production is measured. When people ask what your milage is in the Marauder, you don't tell them how many BTU's, calories, watts, amps, volts, it takes, do you?

Irrigation? What irrigation? Corn doesn't need it here! "Depleted ground water". Where does this "depleted ground water" go? Mars? Venus?

Errosion. What errosion? We started with 1,000 acres 150+ years ago, and still have every square inch of it. In fact, my property taxes actually go up every year! Farming without using various soil and water conservation practices is illegal and has been for since the days of the great dust bowl.

"Ethanol from corn costs $1.74/gallon to produce, but gasoline costs .95/ gallon to produce." Perhaps it's time to ask Uncle Sam where the other $2.20/ gallon goes when you fill up with $3.15/gallon gas!

Are you paying "substantially higher prices for meat, eggs, and poultry" due to subsidised corn production? Maybe that's why hybrid vehicals are so popular! People can't afford eggs anymore! Obviously, they thought that they could save a little extra money buying a hybrid to help off-set the artificially high cost of Chicken McNuggets and Egg McMuffins. There is much more to raising chickens than the cost of corn.

My computor is going to run out of pixels before I finish shooting holes in this crack-pots ideas.

[ctrcbob]

The way the article was written, it looked like when he would run out of E85 fuel, the car would stop and he had to bring extra E85 with him. Well, my understanding is that E85 cars are FFV's, (Flex Fuel Vehicles) and if he ran out of E85, all he had to do was to fill up with Gasoline.

Punched in the closest E85 fuel pumps from me and it came out that the closest are 313 mile from me in SC.

A few weeks ago, I went into some of the Auto Manufactures WebSites. (Both Ford and Chrysler) and they said that they will/can not sell FFV's in all states. You are not even allowed to order an FFV in California and the NorthEast states that use California standards.
WTF, E85 puts out more polution?? I don't know, but why can't they be sold in California, New York, etc?

[Leadfoot281]

I'm willing to bet that 20% our local gas stations carry ethanol. Or maybe it's because I hit the same stations every week. It's as common as diesel fuel.

Try doing an ethanol search for La Crosse Wisconsin, Decorah Iowa, or Winona Minnesota. You should find lots of ethanol pumps.

[duhtroll]

We have ethanol all over the place - nearly every pump I have seen in IA has one "button" dedicated to ethanol, and some have all of them. One thing about this information is true - ethanol cannot be sustained as a long-term solution. There are other things we need to be doing - see previous thread about all of that (a few weeks ago we went through lots of this - no need to repost it)

[BigMerc]

Brazil has been on ethanol or a ethanol mix for many years and havent had a problem with stocks or shortages.

100% is ambitious but just to have the alternative would be nice to get some money away from greedy oil companies.

[GarageMahal]

Brazil has been on ethanol or a ethanol mix for many years and havent had a problem with stocks or shortages.

100% is ambitious but just to have the alternative would be nice to get some money away from greedy oil companies.

Two words: Sugar Cane. I am all for alchyfuel but the situation is Brazil is very different from the USA.

jta

[STLR FN]

Can't we just run on Di-lithium Crystals? "Live long and Prosper.":D

[dwasson]

I don't think that it makes economic sense to grow a crop to use for alcohol fuel. But, using a byproduct, like cornstalks or sawdust, removes most of the cost of production.

[Leadfoot281]

Sugar cane only needs to get planted every 5 years. That certainly makes it far more economically viable as a fuel when compared to corn, which needs to get planted every year.

The Brazillions don't seem to care what happens in the Middle east. Maybe they're onto something?

Sawdust is already being used as a heat source for pellet stoves. Several of my friends use corn stoves to heat their houses! Corn is cheaper than LP! I have an outdoor wood stove, using wood I cut myself, and it's nearlly free to run. My only expenses for heating my house are chain saw blades, gas/oil mix, and a couple week-ends of cutting wood. Corn is slightly higher to heat a house, but not by much.

Of the three, pellet stoves are by far the most expensive to run (on par with natural gas), followed by corn (extremely cheap), then wood (at most $50/year for gas and blades).

I haven't heard of sawdust or cornstalks being converted to fuel. Collecting cornstalks to use as a fuel would seriously deplete farm land topsoil. The N-P-K that goes into making plants grow is also contained in the stalks. Removing that from the feilds is similar to raking your yard. (think 4" grass compared to 12' corn) The effects would be far more drastic, and much quicker. Cornstalks left on the feild return nutrients and also help prevent errosion by retaining water.

Cornstalks are also used as a food source for cattle. Next time you go for a drive in the country, look for those cement grain silos next to farmers barns. They are filled with the entire corn plant, chopped while still green, and allowed to ferment slightly to make it more pallatable. Cattle are fed this in the winter since they cannot graze during the winter months! Cornstalks are hardy "waste by products"!

If the CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) were raised to 30mpg, there would be absolutely need no need for ANY forgien oil. Ethanol can not replace foriegn oil entirely. Wouldn't replacing 10% or 20% be better though?

Too bad Detroit can't find a way to build 30mpg cars that we want. Until then, we'll be dealing with the towel heads for a long, long time.