Goodbye Jaguar?

[SideshowBob]

I just heard on the morning news that Ford may be pulling the plug on Jaguar. How long before the only vehicles Ford produces are Mustangs and pickups? With the amount of incompetency in Dearborn, even those will be losing money soon.

[bigslim]

I haven't heard that. I know that were plans to repalce the S-Type next year. The X-Type was to replaced by a crossover vehicle. It has been a cash cow for Ford ever since they bought it.

[STLR FN]

I haven't heard that. I know that were plans to repalce the S-Type next year. The X-Type was to replaced by a crossover vehicle. It has been a cash cow for Ford ever since they bought it.Darryl since when has Jaguar been a cash cow for Ford. Everything I've read has said since Ford bought Jag that they(Jag) had not made a profit.

[Meteorite]

Darryl since when has Jaguar been a cash cow for Ford. Everything I've read has said since Ford bought Jag that they(Jag) had not made a profit.
That is correct ... Jaguar loses money for Ford every year. I think the only question is: who would buy it?

Aston-Martin was profitable one year only, I believe.

Volvo and Land Rover are now making money.

[junior]

I don't think pickups work either. Ford announce this morning a safety recall of over 1 million light trucks and SUV's because they catch fire...ouch.

[STLR FN]

IMNSHO: Ford's problem are a lack of exciting cars. The Fusion and Edge are just beginning to show excitement for me.

[Hauser717]

Ford's problem are a lack of exciting cars.

I agree totally. And when they do come out with something exciting, it's way too expensive for the average buyer to afford. I'd love a GT or a Shelby, but it just ain't happening. I couldn't even afford a Marauder until they were a couple years old and sitting on used lots. Seems that Ford is producing Mustangs, trucks and old folk's cars and leaving the young crowd that doesn't want a Mustang or a truck to buy Scions and Hondas.

[Breadfan]

I think the design budget to make more exciting cars is being used up by the marketing department so they can make Freestyle commercials that show a divorced/seperated couple having a "good day" together...

Ford is missing the mark, and Jaguar is probably one of the tougher ones to hit, but it has potential. Jaguar still has a stigma they need to wipe off that indicates their cars are less reliable than the competition. Ford has done some to help this, but it's still there.

When people with lots of money go to buy a car, they end up thinking more about Mercedes and BMW over Jaguar.

The latest XJ models are gorgeous cars. They're more roomy than before too and have a real nice look to them. That's a step in the right direction.

The "R" series are pretty hot cars. I saw a new XJR from back to front. Yes back to front because I was a bit behind him but quickly became in front of him in my Trilogy. Although the driver looked visibly distressed that his $90,000 car couldn't keep in front of an old Merc, they're still pretty quick cars.

;)

Seriously though - Jaguar has a lot of heritage they can build off of. There's something there to salvage, somethere there not to let go of. The problem is platform sharing - no one wants an X-type when they know it's a Ford Contour - for Ford/Jaguar to assume that will compete with the 3-series is crazy on their parts.

Jaguar needs a small coupe / sedan that is actually theirs and comes mild to wild and give something that truly goes head to head to the 3-series.

Now's the time since BMW is about to alienate a whole lot of prospective buyers with their new bodystyles...time to capitalize on BMW's new ugly cars while they can...

[StevenJ]

I

The latest XJ models are gorgeous cars. They're more roomy than before too and have a real nice look to them. That's a step in the right direction.

The "R" series are pretty hot cars. I saw a new XJR from back to front. Yes back to front because I was a bit behind him but quickly became in front of him in my Trilogy. Although the driver looked visibly distressed that his $90,000 car couldn't keep in front of an old Merc, they're still pretty quick cars.

;)

Seriously though - Jaguar has a lot of heritage they can build off of. There's something there to salvage, somethere there not to let go of. The problem is platform sharing - no one wants an X-type when they know it's a Ford Contour - for Ford/Jaguar to assume that will compete with the 3-series is crazy on their parts.......

J

Yeah but how much more money are they going to need to pour down the drain to make it profitable which it probably never will be! They are better off scrapping the brand and reusing the existing tooling to make Lincoln better. A redesigned XJ with room for a 4.6l modular motor would be a great seller for lincoln with the right pricing. The new Xk could be made into a Lincoln coupe. It's all possible. Just get rid of the name and take the good tooling and sell the rest.

[Breadfan]

Well in that scenario let Lincoln and Jaguar share platforms and tooling. So instead of Lincolns being plush Fords, all of a sudden they're Americanized Jaguars, i.e. european influence and heritage mixed in with the american heritage and big american iron and a big american V8.

Keep Jaguar which is the more recognizable nameplate overseas anyway.

Then you have a world-solution. Lincoln mainly sells here, and limited amounts overseas, Jaguar limited amount here and mainly overseas.

Win-Win. I don't know why Ford doesn't send me paychecks for these good ideas. :)

And then all the Jag enthusiasts won't have to cry because Ford killed a classic nameplate off. Me? I do consider myself a Jag enthusiast. Losing Jaguar would be a poor display of progress for the automotive world.

[juno]

Now that is a good idea. Maybe not all lincolns should be a shared jag but they should have a couple.

Jaguar's have some of the most beautiful lines of all cars. They are easily recognizeable and have a great heritage. Now if they could get a more reliable reputation and even better performance, they could sell some cars.
That is the only line they have that could actually give the Beemers and Benzes some competition. They have the name, now some go would be good.



Well in that scenario let Lincoln and Jaguar share platforms and tooling. So instead of Lincolns being plush Fords, all of a sudden they're Americanized Jaguars, i.e. european influence and heritage mixed in with the american heritage and big american iron and a big american V8.

Keep Jaguar which is the more recognizable nameplate overseas anyway.

Then you have a world-solution. Lincoln mainly sells here, and limited amounts overseas, Jaguar limited amount here and mainly overseas.

Win-Win. I don't know why Ford doesn't send me paychecks for these good ideas. :)

And then all the Jag enthusiasts won't have to cry because Ford killed a classic nameplate off. Me? I do consider myself a Jag enthusiast. Losing Jaguar would be a poor display of progress for the automotive world.

[Mad4Macs]

That is correct ... Jaguar loses money for Ford every year. I think the only question is: who would buy it?

I'll give 'em next weeks beer money for Jag, lock, stock and barrel.
Don't laugh! You have NO IDEA how much I spend on :beer:

[StevenJ]

That's a good idea but we'd have to find away to get around the LS stimga since that car was Lincoln/ Jaguar shared platform. It was Ford's fault it failed though. They let it die purposely through lack of advertisement and lack of updates. The idea is still good. Get rid of Jaguar in the US and turn current Jaguar products into rebodied Lincolns with Modular V8s instead of the expensive Lima motors for the US. Just change the tooling a bit to support the Modulars. A 3v Mustang GT motor tuned for premium that makes 330 hp should be just fine.

[duhtroll]

How ironic. A maroon jag (sorry don't know the model) was next to me on the way to dinner and floored it to get in front of me - then turned into the same restaurant.

(side note: I never race with family in car and rarely do on the street anyway)

I pulled in next to him and said "nice jag."

His reply? "It'll beat that Ford any day."

There were so many comebacks I had to stare at him blankly for a moment.

I laughed and said "First of all, no it won't and secondly, do you even know what you're driving?"

He repeated his above line and then went to sit down across the restaurant from us. Oh, well.

:lol:

[texascorvette]

The auto analysts on CNBC said that Ford may have to package Land Rover with Jaguar to get anyone to take Jag off their hands. Too bad.

[bigslim]

Darryl since when has Jaguar been a cash cow for Ford. Everything I've read has said since Ford bought Jag that they(Jag) had not made a profit.
I meant to say that it has suck the life out of Ford since it was bought.

[bigslim]

I think the biggest problem with Jaguar was that it shared too many parts with cars made by Ford. The X-Type was a good example of this. It was built on the same chassis as the Mondeo which was the bases for the Contour. When someone spends the money that they asking for Jags people don't want to see the same switches and other items that were used in Fords. Also, the designs were too safe. The S-Type was a hit when it came out but it has gotten to long in the tooth for sales. The XJ is nice but not enough of a design difference from the older one. Ford needs to get darring with design and offer some real performance. If you look at what Mercedes and BMW offer the Jaguar line still lacks in the performance catagories. Even Lexus is getting more in tune with performance.

[STLR FN]

I meant to say that it has suck the life out of Ford since it was bought.Cool. Thanks for clearing that up.

I'll say this and I'm sure Darryl and a few other Ford employees and vendors on here would like to go slap the sht outta some of the bean counters and designers at FOMOCO for what they have given us lately(or not given) .

[bigslim]

Cool. Thanks for clearing that up.

I'll say this and I'm sure Darryl and a few other Ford employees and vendors on here would like to go slap the sht outta some of the bean counters and designers at FOMOCO for what they have given us lately(or not given) .
Yeh, I would like to slap a few. But then I realize that these are the same people that run the "Lion's" organization.

[mr.continental]

Yeh, I would like to slap a few. But then I realize that these are the same people that run the "Lion's" organization.

Yeah, you think they would have learned from their mistakes.

OOPS, did I say that out loud.

[GAMike]

Ford unfortunatley has so many issues, that combine to make one BIG mess........... Financial Incompitency, speed of reaction to markets, product marketing, the closing of the SVT group to me are the biggies that Ford is responsible for Plus:

Platform sharing- The Premier Automotive Group has some very good platforms to cross pollinate other brands with....... For example
Volvo S80 P2 Platform, is now under the Ford 500, and the Crossover (Don't think they are produced in the same factory, but its essentially the same design.)

The P2 is what is also under all S60's, Volvo V70 Wagons, and their SUV the XC90 both of which get rave reviews for ride quality and safety.

If this is the case, why not take the platform under the new Volvo S40/C70 and port it over to Jag X Type Nxt. Generation........ ?

Lastly Porsche built a line of SUV's, Why can't Jag, off the Rover LR3/Range Rover Sport, or the P2 Platform. I never thought the Cayenne would sell as much as it has...Boy was I wrong. Give a couple highline models away to Pop Culture Celeb's and look out!

Volvo technology beyond the platform sharing has started to morph into other Ford brands/products, but its not happening fast enough. Ford needs not care where the idea was hatched if its good make sure the models who require it, get it. As long as the model is similar and competive (Like what Jag Coupe/Convert. is finally doing with the Aston Martin)

Lastly, the Platform that the Mustang is built on gets rave reviews too, why not crosspollinate that and bring back the Cougar or something. Again to slow in the market.

My guess is that the UAW has some culpability here due to the contract that it has with Ford...Not that familiar with all the details but everything you read blames the unions for something or another. If the unions are interested in a long term relationship instead of imediate satisfaction, it seams they may want to discuss with membership ways to ensure jobs for future generations, put together a plan for that and explore this with Ford Management. Those of you in the UAW Union know way more than I here, but this is just my .02

regards,

[STLR FN]

Ford unfortunatley has so many issues, that combine to make one BIG mess........... Financial Incompitency, speed of reaction to markets, product marketing, the closing of the SVT group to me are the biggies that Ford is responsible for Plus:

Platform sharing- The Premier Automotive Group has some very good platforms to cross pollinate other brands with....... For example
Volvo S80 P2 Platform, is now under the Ford 500, and the Crossover (Don't think they are produced in the same factory, but its essentially the same design.)

The P2 is what is also under all S60's, Volvo V70 Wagons, and their SUV the XC90 both of which get rave reviews for ride quality and safety.

If this is the case, why not take the platform under the new Volvo S40/C70 and port it over to Jag X Type Nxt. Generation........ ?

Lastly Porsche built a line of SUV's, Why can't Jag, off the Rover LR3/Range Rover Sport, or the P2 Platform. I never thought the Cayenne would sell as much as it has...Boy was I wrong. Give a couple highline models away to Pop Culture Celeb's and look out!

Volvo technology beyond the platform sharing has started to morph into other Ford brands/products, but its not happening fast enough. Ford needs not care where the idea was hatched if its good make sure the models who require it, get it. As long as the model is similar and competive (Like what Jag Coupe/Convert. is finally doing with the Aston Martin)

Lastly, the Platform that the Mustang is built on gets rave reviews too, why not crosspollinate that and bring back the Cougar or something. Again to slow in the market.

My guess is that the UAW has some culpability here due to the contract that it has with Ford...Not that familiar with all the details but everything you read blames the unions for something or another. If the unions are interested in a long term relationship instead of imediate satisfaction, it seams they may want to discuss with membership ways to ensure jobs for future generations, put together a plan for that and explore this with Ford Management. Those of you in the UAW Union know way more than I here, but this is just my .02

regards,Ford does cross pollinate on various projects. The Milan, Zephyr, Fusion are based off the Mazda 3. The problem with Ford is mostly design and reaction to ever changing markets. Relied too much on trucks and SUV's while other manufactures diversified(and I'm not talking bout DCX & GM). What car really excites you into wanting a Ford(Stang doesn't count)? I'm not even going to get into the 'union' aspect. Yes we(UAW Local 900 member) are at some fault but we can't take the full blame for poorly designed or engineered vehicles. We can take some of the blame for missing, wrong parts put on vehicles. It's a two way street. Lately Ford?UAW are working more closely together to ensure what little jobs we have left are kept. Just my 2 cents.

[GAMike]

True enough about the Mazda 3 Platform, I think its a Gem for Ford if they can leverage it successfully like you say with some sexy sheet metal.

Except for the Union thing, I was focusing on the Premier Automotive Group just because I sold Volvos for 4 yrs. and was saw the BS going back and forth between everybodys design groups in PAG. The bottom line is Jag is Hemmoraging cash to the tune of $500mill. a year avg. there cars have become much better from a reliability perspective, but they have lost cache' they all run together looks wise, and they are extremely expensive to produce. If you think the skin has value in that Jags are distinctive to look at, fine. Change what is not seen to effect the production costs. this is what engineers are supposed to do. If the guy down the hall builds a better mousetrap, and you can make it still look like a Jag, handle like a Jag, then use it and save some $$$. They started doing this with the Duratech V-6 from ford to Jag, not saying its a good move (No cache value) but at least it gets ppl. playing in the sandbox together. If SVT developed an engine for a Ford, and the Jag engineers played with that design to put there stamp on it, then you would have a good fit. But alas.........No SVT.

I know I could get massively flamed for the union comments, but the reality in Ford right now, if to play come along, get along. The us vs. them scenario of days gone past is over with no matter what union officials would like membership to beleive. Unions still are important in the production envirornment, but they are needed as self policing collaborators, not distractions from core business operations. Toyota, just passed Ford in sales, and they have been turning profits like nobodys business. Don't be in denial of what a Ford UAW team can do if they trully work together and get past the BS rhetoric. If they don't Toyota's march will continue.

Best regards,

[jerrym3]

I own a 2004 LS Sport8, and I completely agree with the earlier Lincoln LS comment. Ford had a potential winner and let it die.

A redesigned dash and annual power upgrades would have done wonders for the car, but noooooooooooooooo.

Ford (after 2003) was content to announce "new colors" for the LS!!

Maybe they were afraid that an upgraded LS would steal Jag S sales, but didn't they look at the market and imagine stealing a few BMW sales also?

[MikesMerc]

Yeh, I would like to slap a few. But then I realize that these are the same people that run the "Lion's" organization.

No need to slap them....the Lions Organization makes money every year. Win or Lose they make money. That's good business:D

As for Jaguar, rumor around here is that they are selling the division. Its just about a done deal now. The "buyer" will drop the low end and go back to the high end exclusively.

[Marauderjack]

I really hate to say this guys.....but I am affraid that domestic auto manufacturers are going the way our textile companies did (I worked in textiles for 30 years)....thanks to overbearing unions......third world countries will eventually have all of our manufacturing.....PERIOD!!!:ma d2:

I realize that unions did GREAT things in their time but the "Pseudo-Economies" built around their high dollar manufacturing facilities are falling apart and it is hard for those involved to adjust......and I sympathize with all of you affected!!

It is always hard to "back up" but I am affraid we all are having to......to some degree!!:mad: It ain't pretty and it will probably get uglier before it gets better!!

FORD will eventually be gone if they don't wake up!!:eek:

Marauderjack:(

[Loco1234]

Jaguar to be sold?

There are reports that the Ford Motor Company is trying to sell Jaguar and Land Rover as a package. The US car giant would probably seek to retain a minority shareholding in the company, suggesting that the plan is to find a financial group rather than another car company to buy the business. Thus if the company could be turned around and made successful Ford could reaquire the business at a later date. There have been talks with car companies seeking a luxury brand, notably Renault and Hyundai but for the moment no deal is done. The sale is interesting in F1 because Jaguar is a brand which would benefit from F1 exposure if there was a budget to go racing - as happened when Ford tried it a few years ago. Jaguar Racing was eventually sold to Red Bull and became Red Bull Racing.

It sad really sad....:( :(

[Macon Marauder]

Autoextremist seems to think Hyundai (Kia) has the inside track:
"Get ready to be disappointed, Jaguar fans. The rumble from rumors coming out of Dearborn is growing louder, and the picture emerging is that the Hyundai conglomerate is hard on the case of acquiring Jaguar and perhaps Land Rover in a bundle. Kia, part of the Hyundai auto empire, is said to be the new home for the Jaguar brand. What does it all mean? It's a big bowl of not good as far as we're concerned, as any residual connection to Jagaur's illustrious heritage will be finally put to rest. And it makes the exclusive, desirable brand's still standing that much more valuable."

[texascorvette]

Autoextremist seems to think Hyundai (Kia) has the inside track:
"Get ready to be disappointed, Jaguar fans. The rumble from rumors coming out of Dearborn is growing louder, and the picture emerging is that the Hyundai conglomerate is hard on the case of acquiring Jaguar and perhaps Land Rover in a bundle. Kia, part of the Hyundai auto empire, is said to be the new home for the Jaguar brand. What does it all mean? It's a big bowl of not good as far as we're concerned, as any residual connection to Jagaur's illustrious heritage will be finally put to rest. And it makes the exclusive, desirable brand's still standing that much more valuable."

When Kia went belly up, Hyundai acquired them for virtually nothing. Now the two companies have lots of assets with little debt, kinda like KMart going bankrupt and stiffing the stockholders--then with all the debt gone KMart goes out and buys Sears. A bunch of fat cats get fatter, and the employees and stockholders get the shaft. In the case of Jaguar/Land Rover, looks like it might be the drive"shaft".

[Beamer]

I own a 2004 LS Sport8, and I completely agree with the earlier Lincoln LS comment. Ford had a potential winner and let it die.

A redesigned dash and annual power upgrades would have done wonders for the car, but noooooooooooooooo.

Ford (after 2003) was content to announce "new colors" for the LS!!

Maybe they were afraid that an upgraded LS would steal Jag S sales, but didn't they look at the market and imagine stealing a few BMW sales also?

Yea I had/may get back a 2002 Lincoln LS v8 Prem. and the car is awesome. Very stylish and just beautiful and real head turner but god forbid we advertise it and up the power. I think they got ugly when the '03s came out besides the LSE's. Its a shame they let it die because its a great car besides the 3.9L's problems. Handles great, just needed like 300HP to stay w/ the rest of the pack. Funny thing is the LS is now getting popular. Nice Job Ford, real nice. Even better was the engineers who did not ask for help when trying to make a SVT like version but were too stuck up to ask SVT for their input and just let it die. I do not know the exact details but over at an LS board it was a hot topic.

[jerrym3]

I wasn't aware that the 3.9 had problems.

I've got the 3.9 in my 2004 LS and my 2003 TBird.

Never had any motor issues (TBird has 11K miles; LS has 15K), but both cars came up with the dreaded "E" and had to have the transmissions reflashed.

There were no symptoms in the LS, just the "E". In the TBird, the trans "lost" 4th gear in the SST mode.