Trying to harness 800 HP [Archive] - MercuryMarauder.net Forums

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BillyGman

08-09-2006, 03:56 AM

Some of you told me to keep ya updated on my high HP street/strip BIG Block car project despite that it isn't a Ford. So here's what I've been up to (PICS to follow)....

I've done everything I can think of to beef-up the drivetrain to handle the torque & power of the big inch engine this car will include. But as of late, I've also been doing many things to also beef-up the rear suspension and chassis areas sorrounding the rear suspension, including what I've been able to learn form others including three guys who own race car fabrication shops.

I've heard stories and seen videos of guys losing the axles in their cars while drag racing, wheels and axles coming off and go flying across the track, which also resulted in their cars slamming into the concrete retaining wall too (NOT a pretty sight!). I've also heard stories of big HP engines twisting rear control arms, and ripping control arm brackets right off of the frames of race cars, as well as lower rear control arms being sent right through the floors!!

So it was time for me to take on a part of this project that I had never dreamed I'd have to. Boxing up the rear lower control arm brackets to prevent them from being twisted, and ripped off of the frame rails, strengthening the mounting ears on the rear crossmember which the rear upper control arms bolt to, and better supporting the sorrounding areas of the frame rails where the attaching points to these peices are located. It was time for me to enlist a welder that I know, since I don't have the equipment to perform that task with .250" thick steel which is precisely what I used for this endeavor. I'll explain the pics as we move along here in this thread. So please read on.....

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 04:07 AM

First, the "before" pics...

click on the thumbnail pics below, and notice how the old rear end is mounted onto the rear crossmember on top via the UPPER control arms, and how it's mounted to the frame rails on the bottom via the LOWER control arms & the mounting brackets that they bolt into. This is your typical 70's era factory GM A-Body car four link suspension, and in some ways is similar to our Marauder rear suspensions, since both left & righthand upper and lower control arms are used. You can also see after I removed the rear end and control arms, where I stripped the paint off of the lower control arm bracket in order to prepare it to be welded. Note how the stock bracket is open and w/out support on the top nor bottom. This is a weak point for drivetrains that will contend with high HP engines......

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 04:19 AM

Here you'll see that I've also begun to strip the areas of paint which will also need to be welded in order to be beefed-up and supported via 1/4" thick pieces of steel that I made cardboard templates for, and traced to have cut by the welder's plasma cutter ( a handy item ;) ).....

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 04:26 AM

This next pic shows the first pieces of steel that were welded onto the rear crossmember where the upper control arms bolt into. Notice how we strengthened the ears that the arms bolt to, made them thicker, and supported them from every direction possible to prevent them from being twisted up like a preztel from the massive axle torque that will be present in this heavy vehicle. We also made pieces to support the entire crossmember structure so that it won't buckle from the twisting forces that will be placed on the frame rails from the engine and axle torque. But we weren't done with this yet........

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 04:33 AM

Next, we boxed the whole thing in, to strengthen it further, so that it would help support the frame rails in the rear section of the car.....

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 04:55 AM

Then it was time for me to paint it with epoxy resin paint. I used some stuff called "Chassis Black" which can be sprayed or brushed on. Now the ears where the upper control arms bolt into are supported on all sides,and are also made thicker too, so they won't be twisting into book ends from the tugging force that the rear end will exert upon the upper control arms, and the crossmember won't buckle either, from the frame rails wanting to twist from 775 ft/lbs of axle torque that I'll be puting through the drivetrain.

I also went out and bought some 2" diameter steel pipe with a .150" wall thickness, made the neccessary measurements to cut it to length, and then had the welder secure it right smack between the frame rails in a place where it would be out of the way of the new rear end as well as the suspension and exhaust parts. It will further help to stiffen the frame rails in the back section of the car. Ofcourse later on I also painted the steel pipe and the surrounding areas with "Chassis Black" paint....

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 05:09 AM

Next up, is the weak lower control arm brackets. I needed to box them in, and spread the loads to a broader area of the frame rails. According to the race car chassis books and articles I've read, when a quick race car which uses a four link type rear suspension set-up hangs the front tires in the air during the launch at the dragstrip, the entire weight of the car is actually placed on the lower control arms, the brackets that secure them to the frame, and the surrounding areas of the frame itself. This is all due to the leverage forces at work, and it all is related to rear suspension geometry, as well as physics.

The pics below show what we did to the lower arm brackets. Keep in mind that in addition to this, I'll be posting a pic of the triangulation tubular braces that I've also bolted on, which ties these same lower arm brakets to the upper control arm mounting points and the rear crossmember.The pics below show what the control arm bracket looks like now, and what it was before....

martyo

08-09-2006, 05:09 AM

Awesome Billy!! Simply awesome.

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 05:19 AM

Here you'll see that we did the same thing for the driver's side too.....Then it was onto painting everything up, and installing the new Strange Engineering Dana 60 rear end with the 35 spline axles, in place of the wimpy old GM 12 bolt rear that I had previously removed. Ofcourse I installed all new springs, shocks, as well as boxed lower control arms, and double adjustable upper control arms too.

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 05:24 AM

One more pic of the new rearend, as well as the new suspension components installed. If you look closely, you'll see one of those tubular triangulation braces at the top of one of the pics below which I previously mentioned which tie the lower control arm brackets to the upper control arm mounting points in order to further strengthen the whole structure, and prevent flex under torque. Sorry if some of these pics aren't all that great. I was using a disposable camera. And next up, will be the engine installation, which we plan on doing this weekend. :banana2:

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 05:36 AM

Awesome Billy!! Simply awesome. Thanks Marty. I hope that you kept reading though since I was still posting more pics after you had replied. ;)

Bradley G

08-09-2006, 05:50 AM

Truly incredible!, my friend! :bows:

Brutus

08-09-2006, 06:00 AM

Chassis Black paint is the bomb!!!

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 06:19 AM

Truly incredible!, my friend! :bows:Thanks Brad. I can only take the credit for the vision, the motivation, most of the work, and SOME of the ideas though. The credit for many of the ideas I used has to go to a number of the guys on the Hotrod.com board who helped me out with plenty of advice, as well as a few on the Chevelle board, and the guys from those three race car shops I mentioned.

One thing this project of mine has become the most is, a search & fact finding mission. I've never had to comb INTERNET boards, read books and articles, write e-mails, and engage in telephone inquiries as much as I've had to for this project. All of that turns out to be just as much (if not more) time consuming than the actual work that's required to put the car together. I'm learning alot, and I've most likely have a lot more to learn too.

I think the one thing that I've learned the most about high HP cars so far, is that when they're launched off the starting line, the power that the engine is delivering through the drive train will take the easiest path. the path of LEAST resistance. And one thing you have to keep in mind is that the very thing that you want the engine to do ( carry the weight of the car forward as quick as possible) happens to be the path of MOST resistance IF the rest of the drive train, and/or the chassis & rear suspension is weak in any way.

If the torque of the crankshaft can twist an axle, tear-up a U-joint, twist a control arm, or send one through the floor board with greater ease than it will take to propel your two ton car down the drag strip or even down the public road at a fast rate of speed with maximum G-force, then it most certainly will!!! Whatever the path of least resistance is, that's the path that the engine torque will take. So you have to do what you can do make certain that your drive train, suspension, and chassis is strong enough to cause that path of least resistance to be the propelling of the entire vehicle weight forward against gravity. And there's all types of geometry and physics that go along with that too. I don't mean to lecture, it's just that I've found all of this to be quite interesting to say the least.

It's become so much more for me than just bolting something on the car, and jumping in it, and slamming the loud pedal to the floor. When I was building my Marauder up to be the 12 second car that it has been for the past two years, vendors like Kooks, & Trilogy made it so easy for me to obtain that goal. Sure there was some turning of wrenches and some work involved, but it was so easy and practically required very little thought to actually perform the work for the installations. it took some patience, but didn't require any brainstorming once the money was raised for the product in question.

But what I'm learning is that restoring a car from the ground up, and choosing an all-out performance build to accomplish that, is one major undertaking, and it requires constant research and brainstorming. It's really quite a major challenge. It's a labor of Love, and requires alot of persistence.I'm sure that a number of guys here know exactly what I mean.

blkwidowmerc

08-09-2006, 06:20 AM

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 06:26 AM

Chassis Black paint is the bomb!!!Yeah, it seems to be like pretty good stuff. It dries pretty quick when you're applying it with a brush. Sometimes so quick that it begins pulling the bristles right out of your brush. So I found that if you aren't going to be spraying it due to concerns with possible overspray like I had, then it's better if you use one of those foam brushes.;)

ckadiddle

08-09-2006, 06:26 AM

That's going to be one B.A.M.F. when you're done. :)

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 06:30 AM

That's going to be one B.A.M.F. when you're done. :) I sure hope so. :D

MarauderTJA

08-09-2006, 06:34 AM

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 06:45 AM

Incredible job Billy:bows: Very impressive. Hey, I am on Cape Cod and I will be travleing through CT this Saturday to take the Tapenzee bridge over to NY for my trip to PA..Any chance of us hooking up?Sure. You can come look at the car if you like. I'm supposed to be at some picnic by 3:00pm though. I hope that won't be a problem. In fact, if I decide to blow it off, I can always use you as an excuse. I can just say I had unexpected company from out of state.

Tallboy

08-09-2006, 09:20 AM

WOW! Great write-up and pictures, bro!

I can't wait to see the completed project. Keep us posted...:)

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 10:36 AM

here is a flaw with the marauder.the axles....... That's exactly one of the reasons why I chose a rear end with 35 spline axles for this mega-HP Chevelle. The axle shafts on 35 spline pieces are 50% thicker than on the wimpy 28 spline ones of the Marauder. Many MM owners do okay with the 28 spline axles, but when you get into the 800 HP at the crankshaft range, you don't want to start half-stepping with your drivetrain. The 35 spline axles are 1.5" in diameter, and unlike the 28 splined ones, they're case hardened as well. The Dana 60 rear I chose also uses a 9.75" diameter ring gear,(compared to the 8.8" diameter ring gear of the Marauder and Mustang rears) as well as a pinion shaft that's 1.6" in diameter (as opposed to the pinion diameter of 1.3" on the Ford 8.8, and Ford 9" rears).

Below is a picture of the ring & pinion gear that the Dana 60 rear uses matched-up right along side of the ones the GM 12 bolt rears use. You can see the massive size of the Dana 60 ring & pinion. The Ford rears use ring & pinion gears very similar in size to the GM 12 bolt rear. In this case, bigger is better. I also bought the heavy rear support cover along with a Detroit Locker. Add to that the chromemoly pinion yoke that uses the big 1350 series U-joints. So this rear end set-up I have in this car is ready to do battle.

The "S-60" rear (Strange's version of the Dana 60 ) is made of nodular iron, and has the spanner nuts inside just like the Ford 9" rears do for easier life when you're setting up the gears after a ring & pinion swap. The S-60 rear weighs 25 LBS more than a GM 12 bolt, and 15 LBS more than a Ford 9" rear does, but this is NOT an area you want to skimp in on a high HP car. Particularly a heavy one. Yes, that's unsprung weight which isn't good for handling around tight turns, but it's in the rear of the car which is a good area for drag racing as far as straight line traction goes. What I mean is, if you HAVE to add weight to a drag race car, then the back of the vehicle is where you would want to add it. And seeing is how this car is going to be front heavy otherwise with the tall deck iron engine block I have for it, I'm not very worried about the 25 LBS I've added to the back with the Dana 60 rear.

StevenJ

08-09-2006, 12:09 PM

Dude, the 28 splines are fine for most coventional n/a cars. Some of the early 03's had recalls for faulty rear axles. Maybe you car was one of them? This was covered under an official Ford recall.

Tallboy

08-09-2006, 12:28 PM

Dude, the 28 splines are fine for most coventional n/a cars. Some of the early 03's had recalls for faulty rear axles. Maybe you car was one of them? This was covered under an official Ford recall.

...hang on a minute, I want to make sure I get this straight.

1. You're calling BillyGman, "Dude"?
2. You are telling him about axle strength?

Go hang out in one of Motorhead350's threads, will ya?

Paul T. Casey

08-09-2006, 01:06 PM

Wow. That ride will put some daylight under the front tires!

supa_carrot

08-09-2006, 02:50 PM

Wow, looks good. Any idea when you will have that monster up and running, entirely complete?

TAF

08-09-2006, 02:58 PM

Billy,

Bryan and I were enjoying this thread earlier today...he says he challenges you to try and break that rear-end....he says you just won't be able to do it. And we BOTH want to compliment you on your work/progress....it looks GREAT! Being the bow-tie guy Bryan is...he gave you the ultimate compliment of saying it looks like you're putting together one of the finest examples of that model year he's seen...and he's seen a TON of them.

Congrats my friend!

MarauderTJA

08-09-2006, 03:51 PM

Sure. You can come look at the car if you like. I'm supposed to be at some picnic by 3:00pm though. I hope that won't be a problem. In fact, if I decide to blow it off, I can always use you as an excuse. I can just say I had unexpected company from out of state.

Cool Billy. I am going out striper fishing tomorrow for the day. Give me a call on my cell phone 239-281-5181 when you ge a chance so I can get directions to the house or a good meeting spot off 95. Hell, feel free to use me as an excuse. According to Chuck, you and I will have some great car stuff conversation anyway, which probably will be better than a picnic. Plus, I been wanting to meet you. Seems we have a lot in common.

TOM

StevenJ

08-09-2006, 04:31 PM

...hang on a minute, I want to make sure I get this straight.

1. You're calling BillyGman, "Dude"?
2. You are telling him about axle strength?

Go hang out in one of Motorhead350's threads, will ya?

No, blkwidowmerc (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/member.php?u=5450) is who I am reffering to. I was not trying to address Billy. And I was reffering to Marauders as far as the 28 spline goes. I know nothing about Gm axles.

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 06:02 PM

LOL...it's all good my friend. No harm no foul. 28 spline axles have their shortcomings, but aside from the quality control issues that Ford/Mercury has had with them, they are what they are. They're okay for a 15 second daily driver. I still have the original axles in my 12 second S/Ced Marauder, and after 51,000 miles so far, they're okay. Alot of S/Ced Marauder owners have upgraded to the 31 spline axles though, and I don't blame them.

Tom, I'll give you a call. You can call me too if you like 203-734-5582. I don't have a cell though, so feel free to leave a message if you call and you miss me.

Todd my freind, it's good to see you weigh in on this thread. Thankyou to you and Bryan. :D

Supa Carrot, I hope to have this car on the road and driving sometime in September. But time will tell. This is a real big task for me. Especially because I just bought the car as a roller back in Late Novemeber last year. So I've been attempting a complete performance restoration in a mere 10 months. I just might make it, but we will see.

Chuck, let me know when you'll be up here again!!

Tallboy

08-09-2006, 06:14 PM

Count on it, Billy. I'm never gone for long...:beer:

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 07:08 PM

Here's a pic of the special racing transmission crossmember that I have on order. It's made of .500" thick steel, and is designed to help support the frame rails so they don't twist nor flex. Between this piece, and the fact that I've had a 4th side welded on the right and left frame rails to box them in, the frame should have considerably more rigidity than it did from the factory.

The one bad thing about this crossmember, is that nobody seems to have it in stock, and so it's going to be a waiting game for me concerning this critical piece of the puzzle. I ordered this from Summit racing a month ago, and they still haven't got it in. And last time I checked, they said that they aren't sure when it will arrive, but that they're hoping by the end of August. And the only other place that I've found that sells these is a transmission place in NJ, who told me over the phone that the place that makes these is so backed up, that they aren't giving them any ship dates for these pieces. :mad:

But anyway, when I do get it, it should work pretty good.

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/RC-ABody.gif

the_pack_rat

08-09-2006, 08:28 PM

Ya' got some serious beefin' up going on there .....

Your finished product is going to be the indestructable "underground bunker" of cars when it's done.

:beer:

BillyGman

08-09-2006, 11:06 PM

Ya' got some serious beefin' up going on there .....

Your finished product is going to be the indestructable "underground bunker" of cars when it's done.

:beer:Okay, you blew my cover, so I'll come clean......the real purpose for this car is to survive a nuclear war. This is a prototype of new Chevelles that I'll be coming out with that will do double duty as tanks. :D

In all seriousness though, after talking with a race car fabricator on the telephone who gave me some of the general and non-specific ideas for all of these chassis modifications, I began to take the horsepower that I have sitting on a pallet here a little more seriously than I previously was. He told me that alot of guys try to put the kind of power that I will be through a factory stock chassis, and they end up twisting & mauling it to a deformed mess, and then they bring it to him to try and fix it, and he said that it's for that reason, that many guys have to end up back-halving their cars.

It's because they mangled the original chassis beyond repair, since they wouldn't listen to his advice in the first place. So my efforts with this recent work I've done are in hopes that I don't repeat their mistake ( I mean those guys that he was telling me about). :)

rocknrod

08-10-2006, 11:48 AM

Motor-Mounts.

BillyGman

08-10-2006, 11:56 AM

Motor-Mounts.Supplemented with a chain or cable to the frame. ;)

rocknrod

08-10-2006, 03:41 PM

Supplemented with a chain or cable to the frame. ;)
Good idea.
I used to break mounts like they were free.
But once I did that, I broke a rear hiem joint, fixed, etc, etc. etc....
Youll have fun:D

BillyGman

08-10-2006, 03:50 PM

A word about motor mounts....

most guys who choose a high HP application tend to use solid motor mounts because they're harder than the factory OE style rubber ones. But I suspect that they also can be more brittle too. I say that, because aside from the fact that I don't think that I'd like the vibration running across the frame and through the car from the engine that the solid motor mounts undoubtedly cause, there's a guy who I work with who has a 69 Chevelle 396 with a big blower sticking out of the hood.

His ride is a 750 HP Chevelle, and he broke a solid motor mount with that engine. He then went to the Polyurethane mounts, and he hasn't broken them yet. As far as the heim joints, I don't believe in using heim joints in street driven cars. From what I've heard, just going over bumps on the public roads either destroys them, or the areas that they're attached to. They might be okay for a car that's only driven a few hundred miles per year, but none of my cars are garage queens, nor will I ever own anything like that (not my cup of tea). I have to drive what I build, and drive it often, to enjoy it. I don't build nor modify a car just to have it sit at some show looking pretty, or to sit in my garage so that I can brag about it when I have company over the house. That does absolutely nothing for me. I'm not interested in winning trophies. I want to USE what I build for it's engineered, intended purpose.

For the life of me I just cannot relate to guys who build BIG horsepower cars, just so that they can sit somewhere looking pretty. I see cars like that all the time too when I drive by cruise nights. They have these huge blowers capable of MEGA-horsepower sticking up out of the hood, but they tell you that they never "beat" on their cars. Oh really? Then what's the point of having 500+ HP under the hood if you never use it? It's like a real old guy who takes some Viagra just to get excited and look at how big he is, and nothing more. (sorry for the rant). But if I'm missing something about the heim joints, then please feel free to correct me. Anyway, as far as the motor mounts, If I have a big problem with the breaking them with this engine, then I'll just go to using motor plates.

rocknrod

08-11-2006, 07:20 AM

...
For the life of me I just cannot relate to guys who build BIG horsepower cars, just so that they can sit somewhere looking pretty. I see cars like that all the time too when I drive by cruise nights. They have these huge blowers capable of MEGA-horsepower sticking up out of the hood, but they tell you that they never "beat" on their cars. Oh really? Then what's the point of having 500+ HP under the hood if you never use it? It's like a real old guy who takes some Viagra just to get excited and look at how big he is, and nothing more. (sorry for the rant). But if I'm missing something about the heim joints, then please feel free to correct me. Anyway, as far as the motor mounts, If I have a big problem with the breaking them with this engine, then I'll just go to using motor plates.
Thats RIGHT!:)