Interesting....

[martyo]

“Each more than 100 years old, Ford and GM are victims of being
successful
for too long. GM has 476,000 retirees. Ford provides health
insurance for
590,000 people at an annual cost of $3.5 billion. Both Ford and
GM have
health insurance costs of about $1,100 per vehicle. Neither
Asian nor
European producers are burdened by such costs.”

How can you compete with that kind of handicap?

[KillJoy]

Those are some staggering numbers.....

KillJoy

[Leadfoot281]

Rather than say anything bad about the retirement packages domestic car companys are saddled with, let me suggest this;

The Asian and European manufactures need to start paying those benefits.:rolleyes:

[Joe Walsh]

Rather than say anything bad about the retirement packages domestic car companys are saddled with, let me suggest this;

The Asian and European manufactures need to start paying those benefits.:rolleyes:


Couldn't agree more....It's good to see that some companies are still paying benefits, as they had agreed to do, to their retirees.
Too many companies elect to change their retirement benefits and 'pull the carpet out from under retiree's feet'.
Changes in retirement benefits (i.e. reducing them) should only be done while the employee is still working and has a choice about what to do for their retirement.

The import manufacturers are paying retirement benefits, but they have only been building cars over here for 25 years and have a MUCH smaller retiree base.

[Bluerauder]

Too many companies elect to change their retirement benefits and 'pull the carpet out from under retiree's feet'.
The same applies to government and military retirement packages. Every year, I receive some sort of notice that health, medical or other retirement benefits are being modified or changed "to better support" the entire community. This is the retired equivalent of BOHICA. Congressional staffers are constantly on the lookout for new and better ways to screw the military retirees without being TOO obvious including new and complicated retirement pay formulas. This is :bs:

[DeadVic]

and, everytime one of our fellow American's buys a foreign car we lose out in so many ways. No SSI, Medicare, Medicaide, is collected anywhere in the production chain so we have to keep raising taxes on ourselves... oh hell...I don't want to even get started on this...

[martyo]

Before this thread breaks down, let me just point out that I posted it only because the statistic was staggering but interesting to me.

[Joe Walsh]

Yes, You are right Marty....$1,100.00 per vehicle is staggering!

How can you make any money on small, lower end vehicles when 5-6% their cost is an ever increasing overhead.

[Bluerauder]

How can you make any money on small, lower end vehicles when 5-6% their cost is an ever increasing overhead.
You add $5,000 to the price of the Mercury Marauder and other higher end vehicles. :D We call this the "Elena Factor". :rofl:

[Bigdogjim]

Note that Ford and GM agreed to this way back in the 50's? When they were the "Kings" of the auto world. Now that we are global it is kicking them in the azz. Note that when Toyota/Nission went to vote on unions the workers voted NO!

[Bigdogjim]

Really what they (GM & Ford) did was give way the candy store so to speak.

[Bigdogjim]

Oh yeah hindsight is always 20/20

[X369]

Rather than say anything bad about the retirement packages domestic car companys are saddled with, let me suggest this;

The Asian and European manufactures need to start paying those benefits.:rolleyes:

They don't have to - they have (here it comes - I'm ducking) universal national health care.:hide: Well, there it is, the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about - health insurance, universal health care - it's coming, just a question of when. OK, fire away!

Ron

[hitchhiker]

“Each more than 100 years old, Ford and GM are victims of being
successful
for too long. GM has 476,000 retirees. Ford provides health
insurance for
590,000 people at an annual cost of $3.5 billion. Both Ford and
GM have
health insurance costs of about $1,100 per vehicle. Neither
Asian nor
European producers are burdened by such costs.”

How can you compete with that kind of handicap?

Either...

Require the competition to provide the same insurance coverage as a condition of access to our market.

-or-

Provide National Healthcare. That is the main reason Ford and GM build vehicles in Canada. No out of pocket Healthcare costs for those operations.

:D

[martyo]

Call some of our Candian bretheren and ask them what national health care is like. As one who needs his healthcare, i am not sure that that is the solution either.

[Tallboy]

You think healthcare is expensive now?

Wait 'till it's free! Which, by the way, won't happen.

[Bigdogjim]

Call some of our Candian bretheren and ask them what national health care is like. As one who needs his healthcare, i am not sure that that is the solution either.

It does work to some degree. Very high tax on somking, gas and beer & hard liquor...this funds the system.

[Bluerauder]

It does work to some degree. Very high tax on somking, gas and beer & hard liquor...this funds the system.
And a 15% sales tax on stuff ..... like auto parts. :rolleyes:

[LILALLEYKATT]

Does anyone know what the tax rate is for the average Canandian?...I have heard that they can pay up to 50% income tax for that healthcare....

[JACook]

That is the main reason Ford and GM build vehicles in Canada. No out of pocket Healthcare costs for those operations.
Dunno 'bout GM, but Ford has been shuttering it's Canadian plants. If what you say is true, they
would be increasing Canadian operations, no? From what I've read on the subject, Canadian
labor burden rates are even higher than U.S.

IMO, the main reason Ford and GM build cars and trucks in Canada (usually the larger models) is CAFE.
The EPA counts Canadian built cars and trucks as imports, for CAFE purposes.

[Joe Walsh]

You think healthcare is expensive now?

Wait 'till it's free! Which, by the way, won't happen.

Yep, we all know that the U.S. Government is THE most efficient way to get anything done! (FEMA immediately comes to mind)

I'm still pi$$ed at Bush for creating the Homeland Security Administration...:mad:
Just another GIGANTIC Tax absorbing agency that replicates and has overlapping authority with countless other government agencies...
Once they are created....THEY NEVER GO AWAY, they just get bigger...$$$$$
:mad2:

[bigslim]

Really what they (GM & Ford) did was give way the candy store so to speak.
That is BS. They did not give away a candy store. They agreed to a contract to let people live the American dream. People made good livings and the upper management made a boatload of money.

[martyo]

It does work to some degree. Very high tax on somking, gas and beer & hard liquor...this funds the system.

It's just slightly more complicated than that. Not to mention that there can be long delays in scheduling appointments for the most routine of medical procedures.

Perhaps one of our Canadian brethren will chime in here on the benefits of National health care. :rolleyes:

[Bigdogjim]

That is BS. They did not give away a candy store. They agreed to a contract to let people live the American dream. People made good livings and the upper management made a boatload of money.

No not this time. The big 3 back then had all the sales they could handle, money flowed like water. Labor asked and upper management just said yes!
No one was thinking about the future. Well wake up it here!

Workers building Honda's and such are making a living also just not bankrupting the company.

[Bigdogjim]

It's just slightly more complicated than that. Not to mention that there can be long delays in scheduling appointments for the most routine of medical procedures.

Perhaps one of our Canadian brethren will chime in here on the benefits of National health care. :rolleyes:

I spent a lot of time up there in the 80's & 90's doing tours. No system is perfect. At the time it was moving along a nice pace. Operation were schedule depending on how life threating they were. Yes there was some conflict with in the system.

[TooManyFords]

That is BS. They did not give away a candy store. They agreed to a contract to let people live the American dream. People made good livings and the upper management made a boatload of money.

I am trying to understand this... You would have them honor that contract to a "T" even if it meant the company would go under?

John

[bigslim]

No not this time. The big 3 back then had all the sales they could handle, money flowed like water. Labor asked and upper management just said yes!
No one was thinking about the future. Well wake up it here!

Workers building Honda's and such are making a living also just not bankrupting the company.
That's now. Wait until those plants start getting old and Honda wants to shut them down. Or their product slows in sales and they want make changes. That is when all those employees will be begging for the benefits that we have.

Remember, Honda, Toyota and Nissan build most of their plants where the employees are making money more money then they ever have. They would have done anything to get the pay they are getting.

BTW, tell your story to some retired UAW workers and see where that gets you. Also, you think that there will ever be retired Honda workers?

[bigslim]

I am trying to understand this... You would have them honor that contract to a "T" even if it meant the company would go under?

John
That is not what I'm saying. I just think that the company made their bed. We didn't make the poor decisions that we have to live with. Why should a retiree give up some of there benefits when there are upper management people making record pays.

I know that when the next contract comes I am gonna get boned. Do you think that when and if things pick back up that they will give back what they took from me? NO!!! But I bet they will give themselves some more big-azz bonuses.

Prime example of poor Ford Management. My plant will run there shifts of production. There will only be maintenance on one shift. Now I ask you, how does this improve operations when you have to wait one day to get a machine back up and running? They want to ship the dies faster but now will have to wait until the next day to fix the machine s that run the dies.

This is a small piece of puzzle that management has done over the years. Now we the membership have to suffer.

[Vortex]

I think having real benefits like medical and a retirement plan are things that are just going down the drain in our country. Some day, all of our heavy manufacturing industries, textiles, shipbuilding and the like will be in India, China and god knows where else. Not every American can afford college for a high tech job, yet we keep voting for what we've got and you'd think the word "Liberal" was equivalent to "Traitor". In the car industry, changes need to be made. I think we will always have people here that buy BMWs or Toyotas, we just need to make sure there are more that prefer a Caddy, Lincoln or Chevy. I'd start with bringing out more show cars and bringing the good ones to market sooner.

[quota]

I admit not knowing too much about Asian rules regarding retirement. I know much better about Europeans. Believe me, they pay quite more than US companies do for retirement ! They also pay more in taxes on profits, on social security and on medical insurance (all mandatory), while the Euopean states share the final bill.
All in all, I would say that the lack of competitiveness of FORD and GM comes from a poor management, from a huge inertia, from a very poor marketing (rough rebates do NOT replace a clever marketing) and, consequently, from products which are not always adapted to the market.
Just have a look on Lincoln and FORD: Zephyr becomes MKS within its first 18 months on the market (with another engine), Town Car disappears for being replaced by ? with a 6 cylinders engine... , the "500" (already questionable) stays also with a Six, and even the Focus keep on being sold here with the old base while this car (best selling car in Europe) is proposed out there with a new chassis for the last 2 years...

That being said, I am the proud owner of 2 Mercury (MM + GM LSE).
JP

[Bigdogjim]

Nissan build most of their plants where the employees are making money more money then they ever have. They would have done anything to get the pay they are getting.

Then why did Nissan workers vote the union down?

The reason was they were happy with the way Japan's management team ran the plant.

[sailsmen]

Had my parents been citizens of the UK they would both be dead.

Our Med System is not perfect, but both my parents are leading active lives having been diagnosed 8 & 10 years ago.

[rocknrod]

Call some of our Candian bretheren and ask them what national health care is like. As one who needs his healthcare, i am not sure that that is the solution either.
Amen Bro!
Even MORE costly.

[RCSignals]

It does work to some degree. Very high tax on somking, gas and beer & hard liquor...this funds the system.


That's only a short list. Very high tax on everything imaginable is more like it.

Nothing is free.

The problem isn't health care in the US. It's pretty much the best in the world.

[martyo]

The problem isn't health care in the US. It's pretty much the best in the world.

Yep, and the thought of nationalizing health care so some can keep their "bargained for" benefits is scary. To drag down some to make them equal to others is not the solution.

Anyone seen the movie Sleeper?

[Donny Carlson]

Anyone seen the movie Sleeper?

Be honest, Marty. You'll be first in line for an Orgasmatron!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6d/Orgasmatron_Sleeper.jpg/200px-Orgasmatron_Sleeper.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Orgasmatron_Sleeper.jpg)

[martyo]

Be honest, Marty. You'll be first in line for an Orgasmatron!

They don't work. Trust me on this. :D

[jerrym3]

Start looking at the other side of the coin.

Why is healthcare so costly?

Profit making in the drug industry?

Government intervention?

Lawyers willing to sue anybody for just about anything?

I had heard that the overhead cost per car was more like $2,000.

That 2K either means the car is overpriced (by 2K) or there were 2K worth of improvements, features, etc that never made it to the assembly line.

I was once a Ford UAW worker (and a Steelworker; laid off in an Alcoa plant closing, as was my father in his late 50s). Quit working for Ford at age 22 (never regretted it), got married, went to night school on my own dime while working full time days, had a nice carreer in Telecommunications management, and am just about ready to pack it in.

As a union worker, I lost all ambition. If you were a good worker, the union didn't like it because you were raising the bar. And, since the worst worker was payed the same as the best worker, why excel?

Day 1 in the Steelworkers, union rep comes up to me and says, and I quote, "you don't work hard. If they want you to work hard, come see me".

As a supervisor in the garment industry, the union rep (ILGWU) takes me to the side and says "play ball with me, or ten people will swear that you hit me and you will lose your job".

Union life just wasn't for me. It was my responsibility to raise my standard of living, not the union's.

[AzMarauder]

“Each more than 100 years old, Ford and GM are victims of being
successful
for too long. GM has 476,000 retirees. Ford provides health
insurance for
590,000 people at an annual cost of $3.5 billion. Both Ford and
GM have
health insurance costs of about $1,100 per vehicle. Neither
Asian nor
European producers are burdened by such costs.”

How can you compete with that kind of handicap?

The answer to this is simple. You do like the Federal Government has to its military retirees. You just cut the benefits!

Oh that's right... the military doesn't have a union to defend it !

:down:

[duhtroll]

This vvvv is what I was going to add.

I went to Mayo last year for some tests - they spent two days doing everything imaginable to me (and I have some rather colorful stories about the experience, but I digress).

The total bill was over $110,000. Since we had already paid our out of pocket max I didn't pay a dime. That's the good part. The questionable part is what the insurance company actually paid for $110K of services.


It amounted to just over $18K total.

And THAT, my friends, is the problem with our healthcare system. Medical providers have to inflate everything to keep up with all of the frivolous lawsuits people file on a daily basis. So they use this as an excuse to inflate them 100% more than they would need to cover this, and there is no balance in the system whatsoever.

The one beneficial thing government intervention would provide is regulation of these prices. Of course, given our current legislators, they would just redistribute the same amount of cash into their own fat asses, plus a nice bonus.

I guess what I am saying is:

1) Shoot all the lawyers (sorry Marty!) ;)
2) Then go after all of the government officials and make them work at Wal-Mart for the rest of their lives.
3) Re-elect government officials like they do contestants on reality TV. I'd trust most of those "boobs" before I'd trust our elected officials.

Richard Hatch (fat naked guy from Survivor) tried to evade taxes on $1mil and got caught. At least they aren't bright enough to be good criminals.

Have a nice day.


Start looking at the other side of the coin.

Why is healthcare so costly?

Profit making in the drug industry?

Government intervention?

Lawyers willing to sue anybody for just about anything?

I had heard that the overhead cost per car was more like $2,000.

That 2K either means the car is overpriced (by 2K) or there were 2K worth of improvements, features, etc that never made it to the assembly line.

I was once a Ford UAW worker (and a Steelworker; laid off in an Alcoa plant closing, as was my father in his late 50s). Quit working for Ford at age 22 (never regretted it), got married, went to night school on my own dime while working full time days, had a nice carreer in Telecommunications management, and am just about ready to pack it in.

As a union worker, I lost all ambition. If you were a good worker, the union didn't like it because you were raising the bar. And, since the worst worker was payed the same as the best worker, why excel?

Day 1 in the Steelworkers, union rep comes up to me and says, and I quote, "you don't work hard. If they want you to work hard, come see me".

As a supervisor in the garment industry, the union rep (ILGWU) takes me to the side and says "play ball with me, or ten people will swear that you hit me and you will lose your job".

Union life just wasn't for me. It was my responsibility to raise my standard of living, not the union's.

[quota]

Currently, I am employing 31 workers in Montreal, Quebec.
So I can provide some data regarding gross vs net wages, health care, etc.

For a worker earning 1000 Dollars (canadian) per week, Gross,
- 46.42 are deducted for pension funding
- 15.41 are deducted for jobless insurance
- 4.16 are deducted for family care tax (in Quebec only)
- 115.45 are deducted for federal tax
- 140.77 are deducted for provincial tax (the highest in Canada)
which makes a total of 322.21. The employee receives 677.79 Dollars, Net.
On the top of the 1000 Dollars paid for the worker, the employer must pay taxes for 10,37 % plus 2 to 10 % (depending on the exposure) for Medical Health and Safety on the total.
Actually, the worker costs 1214.07 Dollars to the employer.

Additional Health Care plans are available. They come up to a cost of 50 to 75 Dollars per week depending upon the coverage. This cost is generally shared 50/50 between the employee and the employer.

These are just some figures. What these figure do not say is that

- the quality of the health care system is much below average regarding the long waiting time to get access to a doctor or (worse) to any specialist :mad:
- the tax rates in the other provinces of Canada are a bit lower :o
- the tax rates are exponential in any case :mad:
- the "socialist" system generates unmotivated, unresponsible potheads all over the country :mad2:

Voila.
JP

[RR|Suki]

I'd like to jusr say that in Jamaica we don't have health care, or medicade, or social security, or socialized health care... perhaps people need to just be happy that they get anyhting. If they agreed to it they agreed to it, it's their own fault. Maybe when ford and GM die the Japanese and Europeans will build more factories here so that the good people can get their jobs back. Social security is a stupid idea, formed during a depresion by a president trying to win confidence. It's a bad bad bad idea... and it's proving itself to be so. Sorry to whoever that offends, but back home people work way up into there lives, not retiring at 65 and then spending 20 years on social security... nothing against old people and all, but that's just not logic... if you have the savings to stop working at a young age... then do so, but the govenment shouldn't foot the bill at 65 or whatever it is, when life expectancy is 80 something. You guys have no idea how good you hae it here

[jerrym3]

The problem we have is that US companies don't want to retain older workers.

Their salaries are higher, and, like it or not, this is a youth driven society (can't even find a major 1950s/60s radio station in the NY/NJ area).

I'm 63, and already I can see that I'm frequently the oldest person attending meetings or visiting remote company branches.

This country does not respect its older generation the way some other countries do, and I'm ashamed to say that I was that way in my younger days.

There's also a lot of truth to the statement that nobody on their deathbed says "damn, I wish I could have worked longer hours and a few extra years".

[Dr Caleb]

It's just slightly more complicated than that. Not to mention that there can be long delays in scheduling appointments for the most routine of medical procedures.

Perhaps one of our Canadian brethren will chime in here on the benefits of National health care. :rolleyes:

Ok, I'll bite. And I'll try to avoid the politics that such a discussion can lead to ;)

First off, many of the fallicies you have been given are a direct result of misinformation about our healthcare system. (By whom, and why are too political and left as an excercise for the student.)

Yes, there can be delays for many procedures, but only for non-life threatening ones. For example, you may wait a few months for an MRI scan - but you have the option of going to a private clinic and paying for it yourself. We have a severe Doctor shortage here, but that is because we are dragging our asses in recognizing training from other countries, such as eastern europe and asia - so many good doctors end up driving cabs. And the money to be made in the US is much better, so there is a slight drain for the doctors who are only in it for the money.

The US actually spends more public money per capita than does Canada on Healthcare, and Life Expectancy in Canada is 2.5 years longer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_c are_systems_compared

As for quality and cost, ask Logan why his mother came back here for her injured ankle. I live in one of the few provinces where monthly charges are levied for healthcare. I can pay $64 a month and I am covered. If for example, I had a child born with a heart defect, everything needed to make that child happy and healthy is paid for, I don't have to assume massive debt to keep my child from an early death. If I find I have developed Lung Cancer; treatment, medication - everything is covered. And I will get the best treatment available, it does not depend on my ability to pay.

As for our auto industry - it's a mixed situation. We build cars etc, but we are also not allowed to have our 'own' industry. If a manufacturer were to decide to build a new brand of vehicle, it's almost impossible to see it into the US market.

We are also willing to give manufacturers tax breaks to get jobs. With the new Camaro being build in Canada, we save thousands of Jobs. One of our largest auto parts comapnies (with rights to build Mercedes, Ford and GM products) is willing to pick up the extra slack that will cost one shift at the STAP plant.

http://tinyurl.com/fhpek

And just a little aside, here a connection between '24' "Jack Bauer" and our healthcare system. Tommy Douglas, a politician from Saskatchewan, is largely responsible for our National Healthcare System. He was recently voted 'The Greatest Canadian' ( http://www.cbc.ca/greatest/ ) because of that. His daughter married Canadian actor Donald Sutherland. So Keifer Sutherland is his grandson.

Yes, yes. Just nod your head and humour the sardonic Canadian, or he'll tell you how you lost the war of 1812 and how our beer and healthcare is so much better . . . :beatnik:

"Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States. " -J. Bartlett Brebner ;)

[duhtroll]

I was going to say that as well.

If people didn't get fired just for being old, like 3 weeks before qualifying for pensions, then Social Security would not be so necessary.

If people working 3 jobs could get a decent living from any two of them, then Social Security would not be necessary. Let's face it, no matter how many "good" jobs there are in this country, there will never be enough for the number of workers. Minimum wage doesn't cut it.

If we get rid of SS I want my money back, plus the interest it would have earned.

If you don't want your SS check, I'll take it. I sincerely doubt that anyone on this board is going to refuse their SS check simply on principle.

No offense intended, but most people who deride Social Security either don't know or don't remember what it was like to struggle. The people who don't want it are the people who don't need it, and that IMO disqualifies them from commenting on it.

Your money goes to lots of social programs. You don't get to pick and choose. Simply because you may not need SS does not mean you get to take it away from others.

-Spoken as a person who probably will NOT need it and is not planning for it to be there. But, that doesn't change my attitude to "I've got mine, so screw everyone else."





The problem we have is that US companies don't want to retain older workers.

Their salaries are higher, and, like it or not, this is a youth driven society (can't even find a major 1950s/60s radio station in the NY/NJ area).

I'm 63, and already I can see that I'm frequently the oldest person attending meetings or visiting remote company branches.

This country does not respect its older generation the way some other countries do, and I'm ashamed to say that I was that way in my younger days.

There's also a lot of truth to the statement that nobody on their deathbed says "damn, I wish I could have worked longer hours and a few extra years".

[RR|Suki]

I was going to say that as well.

If people didn't get fired just for being old, like 3 weeks before qualifying for pensions, then Social Security would not be so necessary.

If people working 3 jobs could get a decent living from any two of them, then Social Security would not be necessary. Let's face it, no matter how many "good" jobs there are in this country, there will never be enough for the number of workers. Minimum wage doesn't cut it.

If we get rid of SS I want my money back, plus the interest it would have earned.

If you don't want your SS check, I'll take it. I sincerely doubt that anyone on this board is going to refuse their SS check simply on principle.

No offense intended, but most people who deride Social Security either don't know or don't remember what it was like to struggle. The people who don't want it are the people who don't need it, and that IMO disqualifies them from commenting on it.

Your money goes to lots of social programs. You don't get to pick and choose. Simply because you may not need SS does not mean you get to take it away from others.

-Spoken as a person who probably will NOT need it and is not planning for it to be there. But, that doesn't change my attitude to "I've got mine, so screw everyone else."

I grew up in a van in a third world contry for alot of my "childhood" and 'll turn down Social Security. You can have my check, you are very mistaken, people who don't want it might very well know what real struggle is. What you call struggle here is how the middle class lives in my country. The problem is that people took a nice gesture by the government and turned it into a "right". I'd like all the money I am putting into SS back, I'll put it into an acount of my own. I am 23 and I KNOW that I'm not getting Social Security, my mother isn't going to either, she left this county. Perhaps if people in this county had a little consideration for the older people in the society and communities looked out for eachother... but allas that is not very realistic either.. All it comes down it is that the system is broken and complaining gets nowhere. What your majority of voters decides is what it'll be, you have to take the good with the bad. Atleast you can speak your mind in this country. ;)

[duhtroll]

I'm not discounting your situation, but it's very easy to say what you'll be doing in 45 years. The problem is that things never seem to turn out how you plan -- sometimes they are better, and sometimes worse.

I'm contemplating a career change after 15 years, because I don't see what I do being around in 20 years when I am eligible for pension. It's not because I don't like what I do. I could fall on hard times as easily as the next person, so having SS there is a good plan.

I disagree with SS not being a right. It most certainly *IS* a right, as long as you put money into it. It's your money. You may not get to decide how it's withdrawn, but you still get the benefit. In the same way, you have a right to protection by your local LEOs, within reason, or a right to a public education.


I grew up in a van in a third world contry for alot of my "childhood" and 'll turn down Social Security. You can have my check, you are very mistaken, people who don't want it might very well know what real struggle is. What you call struggle here is how the middle class lives in my country. The problem is that people took a nice gesture by the government and turned it into a "right". I'd like all the money I am putting into SS back, I'll put it into an acount of my own. I am 23 and I KNOW that I'm not getting Social Security, my mother isn't going to either, she left this county. Perhaps if people in this county had a little consideration for the older people in the society and communities looked out for eachother... but allas that is not very realistic either.. All it comes down it is that the system is broken and complaining gets nowhere. What your majority of voters decides is what it'll be, you have to take the good with the bad. Atleast you can speak your mind in this country. ;)

[Petrograde]

As a union worker, I lost all ambition. If you were a good worker, the union didn't like it because you were raising the bar. And, since the worst worker was payed the same as the best worker, why excel?

Day 1 in the Steelworkers, union rep comes up to me and says, and I quote, "you don't work hard. If they want you to work hard, come see me".


^^this^^ is why we are making China, India, etc. rich.

Great post Jerry! :up:

[RCSignals]

Ok, I'll bite. And I'll try to avoid the politics that such a discussion can lead to ;)

First off, many of the fallicies you have been given are a direct result of misinformation about our healthcare system. (By whom, and why are too political and left as an excercise for the student.)

Yes, there can be delays for many procedures, but only for non-life threatening ones. For example, you may wait a few months for an MRI scan - but you have the option of going to a private clinic and paying for it yourself. We have a severe Doctor shortage here, but that is because we are dragging our asses in recognizing training from other countries, such as eastern europe and asia - so many good doctors end up driving cabs. And the money to be made in the US is much better, so there is a slight drain for the doctors who are only in it for the money.

The US actually spends more public money per capita than does Canada on Healthcare, and Life Expectancy in Canada is 2.5 years longer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_c are_systems_compared

As for quality and cost, ask Logan why his mother came back here for her injured ankle. I live in one of the few provinces where monthly charges are levied for healthcare. I can pay $64 a month and I am covered. If for example, I had a child born with a heart defect, everything needed to make that child happy and healthy is paid for, I don't have to assume massive debt to keep my child from an early death. If I find I have developed Lung Cancer; treatment, medication - everything is covered. And I will get the best treatment available, it does not depend on my ability to pay.

As for our auto industry - it's a mixed situation. We build cars etc, but we are also not allowed to have our 'own' industry. If a manufacturer were to decide to build a new brand of vehicle, it's almost impossible to see it into the US market.

We are also willing to give manufacturers tax breaks to get jobs. With the new Camaro being build in Canada, we save thousands of Jobs. One of our largest auto parts comapnies (with rights to build Mercedes, Ford and GM products) is willing to pick up the extra slack that will cost one shift at the STAP plant.

http://tinyurl.com/fhpek

And just a little aside, here a connection between '24' "Jack Bauer" and our healthcare system. Tommy Douglas, a politician from Saskatchewan, is largely responsible for our National Healthcare System. He was recently voted 'The Greatest Canadian' ( http://www.cbc.ca/greatest/ ) because of that. His daughter married Canadian actor Donald Sutherland. So Keifer Sutherland is his grandson.

Yes, yes. Just nod your head and humour the sardonic Canadian, or he'll tell you how you lost the war of 1812 and how our beer and healthcare is so much better . . . :beatnik:

"Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States. " -J. Bartlett Brebner ;)


Sorry Caleb, health care in Canada is not all that great.
Tommy Douglas's health care plan was quite a bit different from what has evolved. His NDP is barely is reflected in the current incarnation of the NDP.

Generally Americans are led to falsely believe the health system in Canada is a utopia, costs nothing, and the elderly get all their prescription drugs practically given to them. All wide falsehoods.

Canadians simply have a pious attitude, especially when it comes to comparing anything 'American'
Canadians do not have as great an understanding of the US as they think.

[Dr Caleb]

Sorry Caleb, health care in Canada is not all that great.
Tommy Douglas's health care plan was quite a bit different from what has evolved. His NDP is barely is reflected in the current incarnation of the NDP.


Compared to Germany or Sweden, very true. The NDP, the LIEberals and the Republican Party North (Conservative Party of Canada) are all very different from even 20 years ago, and nearly indisdinguishable from each other. But that wasn't what Marty asked.



Generally Americans are led to falsely believe the health system in Canada is a utopia, costs nothing, and the elderly get all their prescription drugs practically given to them. All wide falsehoods.

Excatally as I said, there is a lot of misinformation floating about. We get what we need. We pay for what we want on top of that. Taxes are the cost of civilization.



Canadians simply have a pious attitude, especially when it comes to comparing anything 'American'
Canadians do not have as great an understanding of the US as they think.

Most 'Canadians' also don't make blanket statements about 'Americans', as though they aren't 'individuals'. We may have a long and shared history, but we have some stark differences that cause friction on occassion. Pronounciation of the letter "Z" and how many 'e's in 'whisky' for example. ;)

[hitchhiker]

That's only a short list. Very high tax on everything imaginable is more like it.

Nothing is free.

The problem isn't health care in the US. It's pretty much the best in the world.

Only for those who can afford it!

:D

[hitchhiker]

^^this^^ is why we are making China, India, etc. rich.

Great post Jerry! :up:

Corporations have become economic traitors to the country that launched them!

We are the only industrialized country in the world where your access to health care is determined by how much a potential employer values your services!

Older employees and job seekers are just plain screwed!

:D

[RCSignals]

Only for those who can afford it!

:D


Actually I was wrong. Healthcare in the US is FREE for those who can't afford it.

[RCSignals]

Compared to Germany or Sweden, very true. The NDP, the LIEberals and the Republican Party North (Conservative Party of Canada) are all very different from even 20 years ago, and nearly indisdinguishable from each other. But that wasn't what Marty asked.

Well, compared to the US also, very true.

Somewhere around here I have Tommy Douglas's autograph. (as well as PET's) Maybe at least Tommy's is now worth something (He'd have been a less disruptive PM than PET)




Excatally as I said, there is a lot of misinformation floating about. We get what we need. We pay for what we want on top of that. Taxes are the cost of civilization.

yup, exacatally.
except for the part of getting what is needed, at least unless it's on a death bed.




Most 'Canadians' also don't make blanket statements about 'Americans', as though they aren't 'individuals'. We may have a long and shared history, but we have some stark differences that cause friction on occassion. Pronounciation of the letter "Z" and how many 'e's in 'whisky' for example. ;)

Well, many 'Canadians' do make such blanket statements, unfortunately. (you know, ..........all those 'Americans' share one brain, apparently)
I stand by my blanket statement.

There is only one way to pronounce 'Z', likewise there is no question of how many 'e's in 'whisky'.................:cool man:

[hitchhiker]

Actually I was wrong. Healthcare in the US is FREE for those who can't afford it.

OK...I'm backin out of this one because it is going to get very political if it goes any further!

I'm done.

:D

[ParkRanger]

Ok, I'll bite. And I'll try to avoid the politics that such a discussion can lead to ;)

First off, many of the fallicies you have been given are a direct result of misinformation about our healthcare system. (By whom, and why are too political and left as an excercise for the student.)

Yes, there can be delays for many procedures, but only for non-life threatening ones. For example, you may wait a few months for an MRI scan - but you have the option of going to a private clinic and paying for it yourself. We have a severe Doctor shortage here, but that is because we are dragging our asses in recognizing training from other countries, such as eastern europe and asia - so many good doctors end up driving cabs. And the money to be made in the US is much better, so there is a slight drain for the doctors who are only in it for the money.

The US actually spends more public money per capita than does Canada on Healthcare, and Life Expectancy in Canada is 2.5 years longer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_c are_systems_compared

As for quality and cost, ask Logan why his mother came back here for her injured ankle. I live in one of the few provinces where monthly charges are levied for healthcare. I can pay $64 a month and I am covered. If for example, I had a child born with a heart defect, everything needed to make that child happy and healthy is paid for, I don't have to assume massive debt to keep my child from an early death. If I find I have developed Lung Cancer; treatment, medication - everything is covered. And I will get the best treatment available, it does not depend on my ability to pay.

As for our auto industry - it's a mixed situation. We build cars etc, but we are also not allowed to have our 'own' industry. If a manufacturer were to decide to build a new brand of vehicle, it's almost impossible to see it into the US market.

We are also willing to give manufacturers tax breaks to get jobs. With the new Camaro being build in Canada, we save thousands of Jobs. One of our largest auto parts comapnies (with rights to build Mercedes, Ford and GM products) is willing to pick up the extra slack that will cost one shift at the STAP plant.

http://tinyurl.com/fhpek

And just a little aside, here a connection between '24' "Jack Bauer" and our healthcare system. Tommy Douglas, a politician from Saskatchewan, is largely responsible for our National Healthcare System. He was recently voted 'The Greatest Canadian' ( http://www.cbc.ca/greatest/ ) because of that. His daughter married Canadian actor Donald Sutherland. So Keifer Sutherland is his grandson.

Yes, yes. Just nod your head and humour the sardonic Canadian, or he'll tell you how you lost the war of 1812 and how our beer and healthcare is so much better . . . :beatnik:

"Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States. " -J. Bartlett Brebner ;)

An excellent and informative analysis!
You make a strong argument for your country's system - one that the USA is trying to avoid. Our system here in the states is great -- as long as your healthy! Don't get seriously sick here - you'll lose all you've worked for in your lifetime.

PR :burnout:

[Hotrauder]

My head hurts. What happened to personal responsibility? You know. ..or maybe you don't. Be worth so much to your emplyer that they cannot afford to have you leave. Leave as often as necessary to get were you want to go. Expect the best, prepare for the worst and control your own life. Looking around expecting someone else to do for you is a sure path to disaster. If you cannot make that work here you are up the creek everywhere. Just a thought. Dennis:soap:

[duhtroll]

It makes no difference how "valuable" you are when the boss in charge of firings is an a$$. Or with nepotism in today's businesses, or keeping the sycophants around, or the chikc with the nice rack, etc..

If people were fair, I'd agree with you. But people ain't fair. Everyone takes it in the shorts sometime - some at the worst possible time.


My head hurts. What happened to personal responsibility? You know. ..or maybe you don't. Be worth so much to your emplyer that they cannot afford to have you leave. Leave as often as necessary to get were you want to go. Expect the best, prepare for the worst and control your own life. Looking around expecting someone else to do for you is a sure path to disaster. If you cannot make that work here you are up the creek everywhere. Just a thought. Dennis:soap:

[Petrograde]

It makes no difference how "valuable" you are when the boss in charge of firings is an a$$. Or with nepotism in today's businesses, or keeping the sycophants around, or the chikc with the nice rack, etc..

If people were fair, I'd agree with you. But people ain't fair. Everyone takes it in the shorts sometime - some at the worst possible time.

Here's a few words to describe ^^this^^

BLAMESTORMING: Sitting around in a group, discussing why a deadline was missed or a project failed, and who was responsible.



SEAGULL MANAGER: A manager, who flies in, makes a lot of noise, craps allover everything and then leaves.



ASSMOSIS: The process by which some people seem to absorb success and advancement by kissing the boss' butt rather than working hard.

[texascorvette]

Actually I was wrong. Healthcare in the US is FREE for those who can't afford it.Especially if you are an ILLEGAL alien!!!!!

[Hotrauder]

It makes no difference how "valuable" you are when the boss in charge of firings is an a$$. Or with nepotism in today's businesses, or keeping the sycophants around, or the chikc with the nice rack, etc..

If people were fair, I'd agree with you. But people ain't fair. Everyone takes it in the shorts sometime - some at the worst possible time.

Perhaps I was overly simplistic. Find a position where your talent and hard work directly effect the bottom line and everyone knows it. Made me bullet proof for 40 years through 8 companies. I had more than one AH try to drop the bomb. They went AOMF. I wasn't trying to blue print here for everyone but offering a plan that worked well for me for a long time. BONUS...I woke up everyday gratified by what I accomplished the day before and excited to accomplish more that day. I had people I didn't enjoy working subordinate to and didn't for very long but I always enjoyed my work and my customers. Dennis

[duhtroll]

Oh I agree - just saying not everyone gets that lucky to have people who care how good you are.


Perhaps I was overly simplistic. Find a position where your talent and hard work directly effect the bottom line and everyone knows it. Made me bullet proof for 40 years through 8 companies. I had more than one AH try to drop the bomb. They went AOMF. I wasn't trying to blue print here for everyone but offering a plan that worked well for me for a long time. BONUS...I woke up everyday gratified by what I accomplished the day before and excited to accomplish more that day. I had people I didn't enjoy working subordinate to and didn't for very long but I always enjoyed my work and my customers. Dennis