Just perused the Flush or not to flush thread

[SlkMerc]

Hey all,

Been away too long. I build waterfalls for a living and business has been booming. To my question:

I have an 03-300A that I bought with 56k on it. I had the oil and filter changed immediately for peace of mind. I now have 60k on her and I have been asking around on the trans flush topic. I have no idea when the last trans fluid change was. The T/F smells ok and isnt all nasty and I am real big on maintenance. Can I get a revised poll? Flush or no flush? Should I ask what method the shop I pick uses?


Thanks Dudes,:help:
Donnie

[Bradley G]

I'd say drop the pan.
You can tell alot by examining the content(s) of the trans pan.

[ctrlraven]

I was in the same boat you are in now. I bought my 04 used with 40k on it and in 10 months I've put 18k on it. I ordered a Art Carr deep tranny pan and will replace the pan and filter, then take to a F/L/M dealer and have them flush it.

[Breadfan]

I'd say you are pushing it with a flush, it may depend on the condition of the fluid, like Bradley said dropping the pan may help decide.

Flushes should be around 30k...around 50k is probably still OK but I'll let others chime in.

The main concern as I've heard is that as the fluid ages you will get a buildup of varnishes if not flushed regularly. A flush is a more violent way of changing fluid then letting gravity do the job - but it also get ALL the fluid out whereas a pan drop does not.

The problem is sometimes the inrush of fluid from the flush will cause built up deposits to be knocked loose and they can remain in the transmission and clog up a line causing a failure.

I saw this happen before, my folks have a '95 Suburban, on it's second transmission it started acting up at about 80k. They took it to a shop that did a flush. Things ran fine - for a month. A month later the transmission completely died and a rebuilt unit (#3) had to be installed.

Now that Suburban was probably much worse off than a Marauder at 50k, considering the Suburbans trans cooler was the stock unit, and had 150k on it. Not to mention it didn't have the tow package, so no upgraded cooling, base transmission, but it was still a heavy truck that once loaded with people and their gear might have well have been towing a load...

Not to get off track, but the point is a Marauder at 50k may still be ok for a flush...but I'd like to see some other comments on that before saying it'd be trouble-free.

A series of fluid changes will remove most of the old fluid, and is certainly made easy with the drain plug on the deep trans pan - may be a safer route and even with 3 or 4 drain and fills by a DIY-er it's probably just as costly (or less) as a flush at the dealer.

[Dragcity]

Recommended every 30,000 miles. I had mine done as part of the 30k maintenance.

All is well...

[Smokie]

I see no reason why a flush would not be ok at 60k based on how you described the fluid.

I supposed there is more than one way to do a flush, my reccomendation would be a facility that connects in to your car's tranny lines and supplies a measured amount of fluid (usually 16 quarts) from a reservoir whiles it uses your own tranny pump as your engine runs to expel old fluid and draw in the fresh fluid.

There are no extra presssures other than the one provided by your own tranny.

[magindat]

If you want real peace of mind, drop the pan. If the lollipop is in there, it's never been dropped (but may have been flushed). Apply the deep pan with drain plug. Drain and fill a few times and then you can do it regularly at your own decided interval whilst keeping an eye on fluid condition. Further, the extra couple quarts and cooling fins on the pan don't hurt.

[ctrlraven]

I see no reason why a flush would not be ok at 60k based on how you described the fluid.

I supposed there is more than one way to do a flush, my reccomendation would be a facility that connects in to your car's tranny lines and supplies a measured amount of fluid (usually 16 quarts) from a reservoir whiles it uses your own tranny pump as your engine runs to expel old fluid and draw in the fresh fluid.

There are no extra presssures other than the one provided by your own tranny.Normally which places would have that setup? F/L/M? I agree that is a safer way going about and doing it. My fluid is still cherry color with no odor other than an oil smell to it....no burnt coffee smell here thank god lol.

[ckadiddle]

Living in central FL, I have trans service done once a year regardless of mileage due to the intense heat every summer. We only put around 6000 miles a year on it so far.

[Smokie]

Normally which places would have that setup? F/L/M? I agree that is a safer way going about and doing it. My fluid is still cherry color with no odor other than an oil smell to it....no burnt coffee smell here thank god lol.

The dealers I am familiar with use this method, you can inquire prior to service what method is used.

[Drock96Marquis]

So long as the fluid is not brownish, or burnt smelling, go ahead and get a flush.

If the fluid is brown and/or burnt, you may want to pass, as it could kill the trans (clutch glazing)

At 60k, I doubt your transmission fluid, even if original (though let's hope not!), is burnt. Unless the previous owner flogged the hell out of it or did A LOT of towing.

Fortunately, Mercon V is a very resilient transmission fluid to both heat and abuse, I'm sure all is well :)

[SergntMac]

Flushing works for me.

My present "#3" Marauder was purchased 12/05, with 71K miles on the odo. It's a '03 300B silver birch, and it was attractive to me mostly because of it's apparent treatment by it's former owner. It was abused, neglected, beat up, dried out, exhausted. Absolutely zero owner maintenence of traceable note, surely nothing anywhere near to "preventive" maintenence ever, even a few burn holes in the Nudo leather. Broken radio, broken HVAC, OEM plugs, tires, serpetine belt...Hell, this was one pure bone-stock MM, only aged before it's time. For the right price, I took a chance, and I haven't been disappointed...Yet.

It's solid and strong, and recovering very nicely in my rehab program, even the paint sparkles again, albeit some scars remain. But, I had the same question you post today..."Where in Hell do I begin?"

Someone ^ there mentioned "dropping the pan is less violent". This could not be further from the truth when discussing a tranny fluid flush as they are done today. 10 years ago, maybe. Maybe they may have done it differently when it was a "foal" in technology, and with likewise questionable results. But, not today, not now.

The very first maintenence stop for me on my way to recovery, was a quick visit to my local Jiffy Lube, staffed by a bunch of local teenagers from our neighborhood "tech" high school . "Oil change with filter, 5W20, air filter and a tranny flush with Mercon V...Please." 30 minutes later, "done, sir!"

"Violent" and this up to date method of tranny flush do not belong in the same sentence. The process is so non-violent, you would think it was introduced by the a flower child of our peace-loving generation of the late '60s. All it does, is employ one of the tranny's natural resources (the front pump) to circulate fresh fluid throughout the tranny and tranny cooling system in a most peaceful manner, at the speed and with the PSI of the native front pump, with the engine running at idle speed. All that's really happening, is that you cut off one supply reservior (your tranny pan) in favor of another, and redirect the contaiminated supply into the appropriate repository. Ummm...Dialysis for the tranny?

I drove away knowing that no further damage would occur from what ever bad blood was present until that moment. I may not have improved anything, but the abuse stops...Now.

Today I have 82K on the odo, with no problems from this method of flush. I have a stock tranny pan with a drain plug (thank you RF OverLord) in hand, and I believe I have repaid myself by removing the possible and unknown complications present at my point of purchase. Nothing negative followed this flush, and though it's prolly still very useful tranny fluid, it's time (at 85K) to switch pans, install a fresh filter, and conclude the tranny rescue. (BTW, I just completed the same restoration of the cooling system, with very good results).

In brief, the flush method worked for me. I stopped any further damage (if there was any) and reset my maintenence schedule. I also installed an inexpensive way to maintain the freshness of tranny fluid by installing a pan with a drain plug. Now I can pick up 4-5 quarts of Mercon V when it's on sale and drain the pan, and refill that whenever I feel it's appropriate. Most likely, I will never need to replace the filter again.

Like I said, "works for me"...Carry on gents.

[RF Overlord]

Donnie, you've gotten some good advice up there ^^^...but please allow me to emphasize a couple of points that were made:

It was stated that as long as the ATF isn't brown and smelly, it should be OK to do a complete flush. I agree. Since you don't know the maintenance history, and since most people are clueless when it comes to transmission fluid, it most likely hasn't ever been done and I suggest you get it done ASAP. Install a new filter while you're in there. As Mac said, you shouldn't need another one after this.

Transmission flushes, if done with a machine like the T-Tech, are completely safe and effective. Here's a link (http://www.cloreautomotive.com/site_prod.asp?sku_pk=151) to how they work, but basically they are a double-ended cylinder with a piston inside, much like a shock absorber. Fresh fluid is pumped into one end of this cylinder and the machine is connected into one of the cooler lines. When the car's engine is started, the transmission's own pump pushes the old fluid into the other end of the cylinder which causes the piston to push the fresh fluid in. There's no "power-flushing" or "back-flushing" involved. This is the way they do it at the dealer.

If you are going to keep the car, install a pan with a drain plug. There are a number of choices ranging from the so-called "U-Haul" pan, which is installed by Ford in E-250 vans delivered to U-Haul and is identical to the one on your car with the addition of the drain plug, all the way to the FRPP finned aluminium pan which also has an additional 2 quarts capacity. Prices range from $75 to $200. The drain plug makes future ATF changes much easier and MUCH less messy.

[jgc61sr2002]

I guess I am a little old fashioned. I prefer the pan with a drain plug.
You can drain a few quarts of tranny fluid each time you change your engine oil.
Have done this in the past and driven several cars over 250,000 miles with the orignal trans.

[Donny Carlson]

at Jiffy Lube!




http://www.delsjourney.com/images/news/news_01-09-30/1-6724-Jiffy-Lube.jpg

Ask for Leo or Anthony!!

[Tallboy]

Flushing works for me.

My present "#3" Marauder was purchased 12/05, with 71K miles on the odo. It's a '03 300B silver birch, and it was attractive to me mostly because of it's apparent treatment by it's former owner. It was abused, neglected, beat up, dried out, exhausted. Absolutely zero owner maintenence of traceable note, surely nothing anywhere near to "preventive" maintenence ever, even a few burn holes in the Nudo leather. Broken radio, broken HVAC, OEM plugs, tires, serpetine belt...Hell, this was one pure bone-stock MM, only aged before it's time. For the right price, I took a chance, and I haven't been disappointed...Yet.

It's solid and strong, and recovering very nicely in my rehab program, even the paint sparkles again, albeit some scars remain. But, I had the same question you post today..."Where in Hell do I begin?"

Someone ^ there mentioned "dropping the pan is less violent". This could not be further from the truth when discussing a tranny fluid flush as they are done today. 10 years ago, maybe. Maybe they may have done it differently when it was a "foal" in technology, and with likewise questionable results. But, not today, not now.

The very first maintenence stop for me on my way to recovery, was a quick visit to my local Jiffy Lube, staffed by a bunch of local teenagers from our neighborhood "tech" high school . "Oil change with filter, 5W20, air filter and a tranny flush with Mercon V...Please." 30 minutes later, "done, sir!"

"Violent" and this up to date method of tranny flush do not belong in the same sentence. The process is so non-violent, you would think it was introduced by the a flower child of our peace-loving generation of the late '60s. All it does, is employ one of the tranny's natural resources (the front pump) to circulate fresh fluid throughout the tranny and tranny cooling system in a most peaceful manner, at the speed and with the PSI of the native front pump, with the engine running at idle speed. All that's really happening, is that you cut off one supply reservior (your tranny pan) in favor of another, and redirect the contaiminated supply into the appropriate repository. Ummm...Dialysis for the tranny?

I drove away knowing that no further damage would occur from what ever bad blood was present until that moment. I may not have improved anything, but the abuse stops...Now.

Today I have 82K on the odo, with no problems from this method of flush. I have a stock tranny pan with a drain plug (thank you RF OverLord) in hand, and I believe I have repaid myself by removing the possible and unknown complications present at my point of purchase. Nothing negative followed this flush, and though it's prolly still very useful tranny fluid, it's time (at 85K) to switch pans, install a fresh filter, and conclude the tranny rescue. (BTW, I just completed the same restoration of the cooling system, with very good results).

In brief, the flush method worked for me. I stopped any further damage (if there was any) and reset my maintenence schedule. I also installed an inexpensive way to maintain the freshness of tranny fluid by installing a pan with a drain plug. Now I can pick up 4-5 quarts of Mercon V when it's on sale and drain the pan, and refill that whenever I feel it's appropriate. Most likely, I will never need to replace the filter again.

Like I said, "works for me"...Carry on gents.


Donnie, you've gotten some good advice up there ^^^...but please allow me to emphasize a couple of points that were made:

It was stated that as long as the ATF isn't brown and smelly, it should be OK to do a complete flush. I agree. Since you don't know the maintenance history, and since most people are clueless when it comes to transmission fluid, it most likely hasn't ever been done and I suggest you get it done ASAP. Install a new filter while you're in there. As Mac said, you shouldn't need another one after this.

Transmission flushes, if done with a machine like the T-Tech, are completely safe and effective. Here's a link (http://www.cloreautomotive.com/site_prod.asp?sku_pk=151) to how they work, but basically they are a double-ended cylinder with a piston inside, much like a shock absorber. Fresh fluid is pumped into one end of this cylinder and the machine is connected into one of the cooler lines. When the car's engine is started, the transmission's own pump pushes the old fluid into the other end of the cylinder which causes the piston to push the fresh fluid in. There's no "power-flushing" or "back-flushing" involved. This is the way they do it at the dealer.

If you are going to keep the car, install a pan with a drain plug. There are a number of choices ranging from the so-called "U-Haul" pan, which is installed by Ford in E-250 vans delivered to U-Haul and is identical to the one on your car with the addition of the drain plug, all the way to the FRPP finned aluminium pan which also has an additional 2 quarts capacity. Prices range from $75 to $200. The drain plug makes future ATF changes much easier and MUCH less messy.

Better advice on this subject could not be given. Bravo, gentlemen!!! :beer:

[chuckled]

In my opinion, if the car isn't raced or used as a tow vehicle and the oil is not discolored or smells burnt, there is no need to flush. Another simple test is to rub between fingers to make sure no grit is present. I don't believe that transmission oil wears out and it is not subjected to the influx of unburned fuel and the flash fires like the engine crankcase. Just my 2 cents worth.

[RF Overlord]

:D
I don't believe that transmission oil wears out and it is not subjected to the influx of unburned fuel and the flash fires like the engine crankcase.Do you frequently have flash fires in your crankcase? :eek: I suggest extra-strength Tums... :D

I agree that transmission fluid doesn't "wear out"; neither does motor oil for that matter. Irrespective of their different environments, therefore their different types and levels of contamination, both fluids DO, however, have an additive package that gets depleted with normal use, requiring renewal either by a simple drain-and-fill or the more complete flush.

Given the parameters you stipulated (no racing, no towing, fluid not oxidised, etc) I do agree that flushes are not strictly necessary and a simple pan drop may suffice...if performed at intervals appropriate to the use the vehicle gets.

[SlkMerc]

Hey All,

Turns out that my Dad, a long time and successful hotrod builder purchased coolant and trans flush machines. The T/F unit is similar to the one that was described in the thread, a resevoir of fluid that uses the pump to move it. So Im all over it asap.

For me, I could care less if the fluid truly wears out or not. Since I am big on maintaining my cars, I would do it regardless of wear or not. So at 60k:

Recharge the K&N ( I do this about every 5 tanks of gas )
Change the fuel filter
Flush trans and power steering ( our racks need love too!)
Flush Radiator
Change engine oil ( a little shy of 2500 miles since the last but what the hell)

Hey what about the Rear End? what does it take?


Donnie

[AstroVic]

Hey what about the Rear End? what does it take?

It takes 80W90 according to the owner's manual, but I use Royal Purple 75W90 synthetic gear oil in all of my Panthers with excellent success. If you use the Royal Purple, you won't need to add any friction modifier, either, because it's already built in.

I also strongly recommend getting a NAPA "Victor Reinz" gasket rather than re-gooping it with messy black RTV - it'll make future gear oil changes much more pleasant.

[RF Overlord]

The rear end came from the factory with 80W-90 conventional. The axle TSB kit from Ford comes with 75W-140 synthetic, so it seems they don't consider the stock fluid to be adequate. I would recommend using synthetic.

+1 for the Victor Reinz gasket...

[rauder775]

Well, after reading the pros & cons from these threads, I finally did the trans flush, filter and added "Uhaul drainable pan" in my '03 MM. It had 42.5k miles on it (all highway). First time I've done anything at the dealer...surprisingly a pleasant experience.

Will do the axle as well. Have picked up modifier already, but I'll stick w/ non synthetic myself...guess too "old school".

[jabo731]

You have gotten alot of good advise, I personally would drop that pan and replace it with a deep one like the Art Carr and do periodical changes.

[JimmyXR7]

I hope you read this as I am at the tail end of the list.

Pump out of the fluid is best with dropping the pan every other time. The pump out replaces all the fluid which is better than the pan drain. The pan drain replaces some fluid to 'revitalize' the old fluid and is better than no service.

Dropping the pan, allows the pan to be cleaned of the fine abrasive particles that settles on the bottom of the pan. Since approx 1990 Ford has been using magnets in the trans pans which collect the fine metal shavings. Great Idea! I have been adding magnets to my trans pans for years on my older classics. My older classics have torque converter drain plugs, I drain the torque converter too.

I purchased my 2003 Marauder with 28K miles on it. At 30K miles I dropped the Trans pan. The pan magnet was fully loaded with the 'black metal mud' and the 'mud' had started to collect on the bottom of the pan within 2 inch of the magnet. As often I drive my Marauder hard and I do not know how the previous owner drove, I plan on dropping the trans pan at 45K miles for a comparison check.

My dad and uncle had shops in different towns when I was young in the 60s and 70s. I learned many tips from them and I have serviced many transmissions over the years. I still work on cars on the weekend but I am a professional mechanical engineer.

Hope this helps, Jim

[David Morton]

(deleted by David Morton) Reason: MM03MOK doesn't like what I have to offer to this site.

[DeadVic]

my 2 cents

I have had four Panthers since 1998. All, except the MM, have develop TC shudder at one point or the other. The MM has had a tune on it since day one. I assume this is why I either don't feel or don't have the TC shudder show it's ugly face.

But, after my first couple exposures to TC shudder I began researching and learned that a full flush every 20K miles was in order given my driving style. I run WOT several times a day and run up to redline shifts 90% of the time I go WOT.

So, all my Panthers now get flushes every 20-25K miles. The MM is on it's third batch of fluid (1 from factory and 2 flushes) at 45K miles.

It's fairly cheap insurance and worth the piece of mind for me.

One question that has dogged me tho; is this an issue of tranny or TC? or both? Me thinks the TC is the weakest part of any panther drive train (one might argue output shaft - but in stock form, it's the TC IMHO).

[RF Overlord]

is this an issue of tranny or TC? or both? Dead, according to ex-Ford transmission designer and 4R70W guru Jerry Wroblewski, the shudder is a TC/fluid issue. He called it "stiction". It's a breakdown of the fluid/friction-surface interface in the torque converter clutch. Kinda like when it's not quite raining and your windshield wipers chatter across the glass. Mercon V was developed to address this issue by specifying a synthetic-blend base stock instead of mineral oil to help with oxidation, and by adding more friction modifiers to the additive pack. MV is called a HFM (Highly Friction Modified) fluid.

David Morton: Thank you, sir, for that most excellent tutorial. You've confirmed a number of things I either suspected, or was told by someone who heard it from their brother's wife's barber's mechanic... :) BTW, don't be such a stranger...

[David Morton]

Dead, according to ex-Ford transmission designer and 4R70W guru Jerry Wroblewski, the shudder is a TC/fluid issue. He called it "stiction". It's a breakdown of the fluid/friction-surface interface in the torque converter clutch. Kinda like when it's not quite raining and your windshield wipers chatter across the glass. Mercon V was developed to address this issue by specifying a synthetic-blend base stock instead of mineral oil to help with oxidation, and by adding more friction modifiers to the additive pack. MV is called a HFM (Highly Friction Modified) fluid.

David Morton: Thank you, sir, for that most excellent tutorial. You've confirmed a number of things I either suspected, or was told by someone who heard it from their brother's wife's barber's mechanic... :) BTW, don't be such a stranger...

Brother's wife's BARBER?

I knew it. Nancy's and them dang Nancy's parading up and down San Francisco are taking over the world!

Sorry to hear 'bout yer brother. Just remember, we hate the sin, not the sinner.

:lol:

[Dennis Reinhart]

Hey all,

Been away too long. I build waterfalls for a living and business has been booming. To my question:

I have an 03-300A that I bought with 56k on it. I had the oil and filter changed immediately for peace of mind. I now have 60k on her and I have been asking around on the trans flush topic. I have no idea when the last trans fluid change was. The T/F smells ok and isnt all nasty and I am real big on maintenance. Can I get a revised poll? Flush or no flush? Should I ask what method the shop I pick uses?


Thanks Dudes,:help:
Donnie


Since the Marauder torque converter does not have a drain it holds about 8 qrts of dirty fluid, I would find a shop that has a BG flush machine as we do. This allows for a complete transmission flush with out even pulling the pan, you make sure the transmission is full when you start you add a can of cleaner, fill the flush machine up with 14 qrts of fluid, connect in series with any transmission line, and let the car run, the you open a valve the clean fluid will displace all the old fluid, its a great system.

[David Morton]

I think so too, Dennis.

My only complaint is that most of the shops that offer this service are overcharging. Yes, it's a better service. Yes, there's a machine to pay for as well. But this is a service that's less labor intensive in two ways. One: you no longer need to use a rack, and the tools, the pan, the torque wrench, the gasket, the cleanup of the parts involved in doing a pan drop; and two: you no longer need the level of training in the technician to do such a job. This new flush is a job you can train a high-school drop-out to do in a few days and have almost no comebacks. It's actually less demanding of expertise than the lube tech job. He's doing more work cleaning the filter adapter flange and drain hole, filling the new filter, wiping the dirt off the zerk fittings and filling the engine with oil than this service calls for.

And there's only one shop here in Bradenton that does it for less than $100. OUTRAGEOUS! Filter change style can be had for $79.

Still, mine has less than 30,000 miles and I've already done it on mine. Yup, paid too much for a flush. That tells you how much better I think this service is.

[Dennis Reinhart]

David the machine new is over 2000.00

Price the Mercon five, lets say 4 dollars a quart 4x14 = 56.00 add the flush kit with the cleaner and additive 29.95 flat rate for most shops right now is 85.00 or higher if a shop charges 100.00 they made a whopping 24.00 profit. For the hour it took to do this. I don't get rich doing a flush, if I use Mercon five I charge 150.00 if I use Amsol its much higher.

It is a very good machine and they also make a oil flush machine we have that as well.

[David Morton]

David the machine new is over 2000.00

Price the Mercon five, lets say 4 dollars a quart 4x14 = 56.00 add the flush kit with the cleaner and additive 29.95 flat rate for most shops right now is 85.00 or higher if a shop charges 100.00 they made a whopping 24.00 profit. For the hour it took to do this. I don't get rich doing a flush, if I use Mercon five I charge 150.00 if I use Amsol its much higher.

It is a very good machine and they also make a oil flush machine we have that as well.

Sorry about the rant Dennis.

I retired in 2001 and have never used the machine. I was thinking it would be down for 1/2 hour tops, 5 min to attach, 20 min to run and 5 min to finish. And I was going by the old Dexron II bulk rate cost of $1.25 a qt.

I had no idea the machine took that long and that dealers were paying $4 a quart for 1000 gallons of Mercon V.

Please accept my apology. :o

[Dennis Reinhart]

Sorry about the rant Dennis.

I retired in 2001 and have never used the machine. I was thinking it would be down for 1/2 hour tops, 5 min to attach, 20 min to run and 5 min to finish. And I was going by the old Dexron II bulk rate cost of $1.25 a qt.

I had no idea the machine took that long and that dealers were paying $4 a quart for 1000 gallons of Mercon V.

Please accept my apology. :o


No David its fine, I appreciate your post and comments, its so easy to misinterpret some one on the net, and yes when the dealer buys in bulk they save but they do not lower there price I am a independent I can not buy 500 gallons at one time, if the car is hot you have to wait a bit and we normally do it on a rack its easier to raise it up in some cases. But I am with you on many things some dealers do, thats why in most cases its better and cheaper to find a good shop for non warranty service and repair.

[David Morton]

Yup, you're one of the good guys here IMO.

I just did a search and found a bulk dealer that is selling the DexronII/Mercon V ATF through Conoco for 13.95 a gallon, 500 gallon minimum order. You ain't makin' much if your retailing it for $4 a quart bud.

Oil prices have gone up quite a bit since 2001.