Restoration advice, please

[Mike Poore]

We have what we think is an historically significant 64 1/2 Mustang CP, which we've stored for nearly 20 years. We knew what it was, when we bought it: a CP, 170cu in 6cyl, 3sp, red/red, and with the correct running gear and all the mechanical pieces parts. Thing is, it was made 8 days into production, at Dearborn, and is SR# 1,401, obviously making it one of those first cars in the dealer's showrooms. We know, for instance that there were Falcons & Fairlanes sharing those SR#'s so this isn't necessarily the 1,401st Mustang built, and could be considerably lower on the production table. I've been keeping track, over the years, and only know of two others with lower #'s; the one in Dearborn (#1) and one in Tennessee.

Now for the problem. What do we do with this car? Proper restoration, will most likely, exceed $20,000, perhaps significantly. There's no sentimental attachment to the car, and we're not interested in campaigning another Garage Queen, like Sunshine. We want a nice reliable 65-66 driver that's not going to require constant repair, hence the restoration idea; which would give us a car we know is mechanicaly sound. Thing is, by the time we're done, the car will be worth less than we have in the restoration. That makes little sense, unless a very early production car like that really would end up being a high dollar item. The restoration guys I've talked to think it could go either way, end value wise, but all agree, restoration would be very expensive.

What would you do? Sell it and go looking for a nice driver, or fix it up?

Please share your thoughts.
thanks
mike & barb

[DEFYANT]

Is restomod an option?

I'd like to do something like that in the future.

[jim geary]

If it were me. Why pump money into a dead horse? Six cylender is not a collectors first choice. Save your money and buy something that is already
good to go. JMO.

[whoskal]

If it were me I would sell it...My first car was a 64 1/2 stang and there are people out there willing to pay good money for those things

[O's Fan Rich]

www.vintage-mustang.com

Tell 'em I sent ya!

[Tallboy]

I would get the car into decent daily-driver condition, and tout it's early production with a small board at the local shows. People usually have quite an interest in cars like that. I know I do. Plus, I think the fact that it's a 6-cylinder is cool. I mean, how many of those do you see at the local hangouts?

[O's Fan Rich]

64 1/2 original, 6 or 8cyl ( btw that one was a 260) is a nice car.
But, a coupe is worth less than a cvert.
Mike YOU gotta choose.... if it were me, I'd sell it after getting as much documentation as possible, to someone who would be willing to put it together.
I do not think you would break even on a resto,( like me with the 68 Fastback...) and to take this early production car and restomod it would be bad.
You may be able to wrangle a nice trade for it....

[FordNut]

Clean it up, get it drivable, sell it as an early production unrestored original daily driver. Then get something else to make into a daily driver. Like maybe a '68 fastback with a 32V Marauder engine!

[DEFYANT]

Clean it up, get it drivable, sell it as an early production unrestored original daily driver. Then get something else to make into a daily driver. Like maybe a '68 fastback with a 32V Marauder engine!


:banana2: Oh yeah! :banana2:

[kj31067]

if it was me ,i would sell and look to purchase another that someone else sunk the 20k into....you ll be paying less for it than they have into it......just a thought:)

[hitchhiker]

We have what we think is an historically significant 64 1/2 Mustang CP, which we've stored for nearly 20 years. We knew what it was, when we bought it: a CP, 170cu in 6cyl, 3sp, red/red, and with the correct running gear and all the mechanical pieces parts. Thing is, it was made 8 days into production, at Dearborn, and is SR# 1,401, obviously making it one of those first cars in the dealer's showrooms. We know, for instance that there were Falcons & Fairlanes sharing those SR#'s so this isn't necessarily the 1,401st Mustang built, and could be considerably lower on the production table. I've been keeping track, over the years, and only know of two others with lower #'s; the one in Dearborn (#1) and one in Tennessee.

Now for the problem. What do we do with this car? Proper restoration, will most likely, exceed $20,000, perhaps significantly. There's no sentimental attachment to the car, and we're not interested in campaigning another Garage Queen, like Sunshine. We want a nice reliable 65-66 driver that's not going to require constant repair, hence the restoration idea; which would give us a car we know is mechanicaly sound. Thing is, by the time we're done, the car will be worth less than we have in the restoration. That makes little sense, unless a very early production car like that really would end up being a high dollar item. The restoration guys I've talked to think it could go either way, end value wise, but all agree, restoration would be very expensive.

What would you do? Sell it and go looking for a nice driver, or fix it up?

Please share your thoughts.
thanks
mike & barb

Sorry, but the 6-cyls just don't sell like the V8's do.

You could get the lower running gear (6-cyl has lightweight suspension) and convert it to a V8 car, but, of course, the VIN would not match.

If you're going to keep it, build what you want and enjoy it.

:D

[Bluerauder]

What would you do? Sell it and go looking for a nice driver, or fix it up?

Please share your thoughts.
thanks
mike & barb
Mike, sounds like you have more of a functional need for a decent and reliable daily driver than for a restored Mustang. It's been sitting in your garage for 20 years and you haven't gotten the urge to move forward with the work to get it fixed up. So, I think you already know what the answer is.

I'd say sell the 64 1/2 Mustang to a collector or someone who has the desire/motivation and the resources to do the restoration properly. Provide whatever documentation that you have to validate the "history" and SN# part.

As to recommendations or what to get as a daily car .... I'll need to know more of your transportation requirements. :D You have a pick-up and an SUV already. So, I think that $20K savings will make a starter deposit on a Mercedes SLR McLaren --- what the heck !!! ;)

[Breadfan]

Mike, most everyone above me has stated some good thoughts on the subject. It sounds to me like this car holds strong sentimental value to you as well, trust me, that alone makes a car worth keeping.

Keep that sentimental value in mind when you consider thoughts of selling it. Perhaps selling it might be the most financially secure thing to do, but at the same time it could be emotionally difficult. Often times the true worth of doing something goes beyond dollar figures.

My suggestion is to spend some more time doing research into the cars origins. Maybe try to track down it's true production number. This kind of info raises monetary value of the car. Of course, if you plan to keep it, that doesn't really matter - but it helps win shows. :)

The problem with restoring many cars is that you start out with a small project, and as you are working you go, "You know, I have this part off, I might as well do this. Once that part is done, the surround stuff will look bad so I might as well replace/refinish those as well" - and so on.

If you *want* to keep it I would suggest the following:

Determine if you want all orginal restore or resto-mod, non-original "Driver" restore. This can be determined by learning more about the history of the car and evaluating it's history and setup alongside current and future trends. Will a 6cyl Mustang of that era be something truly special, sought after, or a show-taker?

If not, it does always fully retract from the cars worth and value to keep it stock, but will determine how far you go - i.e. keep the 6cylinder engine stock, but put aftermarket hoses and belts on it, don't repaint every mark, chalk items, use Ford OEM sealer from '64, etc.

Once you analyze the true value you can appropriately plan the END STATE of the restoration, i.e. all show or nice driver.

Once you determine this, and the end state of any restoration, you can determine what must be done now, and what could be done later. The end state also determines how much the car is dissassembled, how much is refinished vs. cleaned, etc. This will allow you to find the best way to restore the car to the state you want in the short term while leaving a clear and easy avenue to complete a more indepth restoration late on.

Unfortunately with the comment I will say it's VERY DIFFICULT to find this balance, becuase often times the only way to take a driver car to a show car is just about another restoration. (But then again, you *DO* keep your drivers exceptionally well maintained and clean!)

So it's a balance, financial value, sentimental value, end resotration state, and resotration path. Once you answer all those questions and have a basic plan you will know if it's a road you want to travel or if it's time to move on or let it sit more for later.

I will say, I was wondering the other day how the old 'stang was doing...

[marauder307]

We have what we think is an historically significant 64 1/2 Mustang CP, which we've stored for nearly 20 years. We knew what it was, when we bought it: a CP, 170cu in 6cyl, 3sp, red/red, and with the correct running gear and all the mechanical pieces parts. Thing is, it was made 8 days into production, at Dearborn, and is SR# 1,401, obviously making it one of those first cars in the dealer's showrooms. We know, for instance that there were Falcons & Fairlanes sharing those SR#'s so this isn't necessarily the 1,401st Mustang built, and could be considerably lower on the production table. I've been keeping track, over the years, and only know of two others with lower #'s; the one in Dearborn (#1) and one in Tennessee.

Now for the problem. What do we do with this car? Proper restoration, will most likely, exceed $20,000, perhaps significantly. There's no sentimental attachment to the car, and we're not interested in campaigning another Garage Queen, like Sunshine. We want a nice reliable 65-66 driver that's not going to require constant repair, hence the restoration idea; which would give us a car we know is mechanicaly sound. Thing is, by the time we're done, the car will be worth less than we have in the restoration. That makes little sense, unless a very early production car like that really would end up being a high dollar item. The restoration guys I've talked to think it could go either way, end value wise, but all agree, restoration would be very expensive.

What would you do? Sell it and go looking for a nice driver, or fix it up?

Please share your thoughts.
thanks
mike & barb


My goodness...sounds like quite the find!

My only reservation---if it were me---about a restoration would be in the engine. The 200-ci sixes are still somewhat plentiful, and in that plentifulness (is that even a word?) they would be easier to get parts for and thereby easier to maintain. And you'd be able to easily graft it onto the existing transmission. So I'm not sure if I'd keep the 170.

That said...if you've got a line on a place that could supply you with 170 parts---shoot, keep it! Find ya someplace that can do the body right, get the interior spruced up (if it needs it!) get it safe to drive (which means brakes, engine, lights, and at least lap belts) and enjoy it.

You sound like you might be on the fence about it as far as value goes. As a fellow enthusiast, let me propose this to you: Decide why you would want to keep it. Would it be because you love it and enjoy it, or would it be for the more pragmatic reason of valuation? If it's the first reason, by all means keep it and enjoy. We need more enthusiasts like you. If it's the second reason, well...I'm not going to say you're evil, 'cause that's not true. I myself like making money and can easily respect your motives. But I think you'd probably be better off letting it go if the second reason is your real driving motivation.

As for me, there's a '66 Ford Ranger p-up still waiting for me back on the family farm in west AL; red, 352 (not a misprint), standard bed, 3-on-the-tree. Odometer's on the verge of rolling over 300,000. Driver's door is bashed in from a close encounter with a tractor, and the brakes are totally gone. Not worth a plugged nickel as far as market valuation, but when I get the money I'm tearing it down to the framerails and rebuilding it to my satisfaction. Why? It was the first vehicle I ever drove in my life. And with the slow inexorable decline of the farm and the health of my family, it will be the one thing that remains of the land my family owned and worked for the last 7 decades. There's my motivation.

Sorry about the length of the answer...but I hope it helps put things in focus a bit. :up:

[jerrym3]

I have a similar situation with my 64 Galaxie.

The car has chassis rot (I first noticed it in 1979, but it still rides fine and the doors all close and line up) and trunk issues as well. The front buckets could use new upholstry, but once you start, you don't know where to end.

The top was replaced in the early 80s, and the installer said that that would be the last top don that car ue to front bow rust issues.

So, I keep it clean and waxed, out of the rain, and repair anything that goes bad mechanically (within reason). Should the trans go, it becomes an immediate parts car. I'm not interested in swapping out the chassis, and paying someone to do it doesn't make sense, all things considered.

I almost sold it two years ago for $2,000, but I changed my mind. Car is still a head turner, and I only put about 800 miles per year on her (car has 209,000 miles now).

She's been mine since 1969, so I'll just keep driving her until one of us wears out.

[RoyLPita]

This is just a thought. Did you get a report from Marti Auto works in AZ? They have the info that can tell you when it really came off of the line.

[jdando]

At the point I am in my life I would get all the documentation regarding the early lineage and put it up for sale. The good thing is you do not need to sell it and can take your time to find a buyer who values what you have. No need to panic and dump it at a "fire" sale price.

Yea, it might be cool to restore, but then you would have a 40 year old car with 40 year features (weak power, weak brakes, no ac). Plus the hassles of storing it, etc.

Just my two cents. Good luck with the project!
jeremy

[sspmustang]

This is just a thought. Did you get a report from Marti Auto works in AZ? They have the info that can tell you when it really came off of the line.
Marti doesn't have any info prior to '67.. :(
I would sell the car to someone who will preserve/restore it..restomod one that's already been beat to crap. Even the lowly sixes are getting hard to find in worthwhile shape. My .02.

[Mike Poore]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses. A couple of them took me by surprise, simply because we had not considered them. For instance, Charlie's wondering about a restomod, which I'll address first.

I wouldn't do that to this car, because of it's build date and historical significance. There are plenty of '65-66's out there (over a million of 'em) that are fair game for butchery, but not this one.

Secondly, Chuck's idea of doing a minimal fix-up and put it on the market, while letting prospective buyers know what it is. A reasonable plan, and worth considering.

There's also, Rich's advice to visit the mustang net, and ask basically the same one I've asked here. That I'll do, and it's great advice. You get dibs and garage time on our new Rotary Lift, Rich.

Mike, you missed my saying we have no sentimental attachment to this particular car, it's just that we know what it may be, and feel it could deserve a full and complete restoration; but, perhaps, not by us.
BTW, that was the fastback you saw, when you and dad were here. The cp, is stored at another location.

We know when it came off the assembly line, at Dearborn, day 8 of production, we just don't know exactly how many Mustangs were made in the seven days that proceeded it. For instance, how many shifts, and did they work Saturdays and Sundays? Again, I'll point out that Falcons and Fairlanes shared those serial number sequences, my point being just how many mustangs were produced before SR# 1,401 came up, subtracting out the Falcons and Fairlanes? Remembering there were two weekend days in this cycle, this car could have been manufactured with just five days of production before it. For argument's sake, lets say there were an equal number of Falcon, Fairlane, and Mustangs built on the specified days. Math: 1,401 divided by 3 equals 467. Nevertheless, this car had to be one of those Mustangs that were in the showrooms, on that first day the public saw them.

The points made about full restoration of just any '65 6cyl Mustang are the most compelling. We had another 64 1/2 6 cyl auto, a June build car, that was actually better than this one, mechanically; but there was no sense whatsoever in restoring that one, and we gave it to a local high school as a project car for their body shop, taking the tax write off as a charitable contribution.

But this one.... this one's different.

It seems, from the shared wisdom, that two, actually one, course of action makes the best sense.

Find the right person who is willing and able to save this piece of history, and lovingly restore it; should be the one to have it; and for us to put the 20K or so we'd have spent restoring this one into a really nice driver, we're going to enjoy.

I think that's what everyone's said, when it's all summed up.

Some of you don't know, but I have an "A" engine 4sp 65 Fastback, which is almost done, and we're looking for the 65-66 coupe to be Barb's grocery getter, and had thought, this '64 1/2 cp was the one to fix up, for her.

Basically, it seems, we've all agreed it is not.

You guys are great, and Barb & I really appreciate your input. Please, if there's more to add, or if we've missed something, please continue.

I really appreciate marauder307's insightful assessment of what we're about as enthusiasts and our not caring one whit about turning a profit (oh how I hate that notion) but our concern about sinking far too much resources into something not worth the effort, for our purpose at this juncture. I mean, anyone think it a good idea to drop 50 large restoring a Pacer? (someone will, though)

Thanks for your time, guys, you're the best.

mike & barb :)

[Mike Poore]

www.vintage-mustang.com (http://www.vintage-mustang.com)

Tell 'em I sent ya!

Thanks Rich. I registered and posted the question. I hope they have the level of expertise and helpfulness as our guys. :)

Honestly, you don't have to look around much, to see how great this site really is.

[RCSignals]

You know, these days there is real interest amongst collectors for original, unrestored, reasonable condition cars. This would fit that bill. clean it up, polish it, get it running, documented, and sell it.

Then look for another you fell comfortable making into a 'driver'

I once owned a 64 1/2 Convert, with a production date of 17 April. Also another with a production date of 2 May.

Both of these were Canadian cars, While all mustangs were built in the US, their engines were not exactly the same. It had to do with import regulations, and things were different pre Auto pact (which wasn't until 1966)
the pre '66 cars had Canadian or at least Canadian spec engines, and the engines were painted Canadian colours. For instance, the 260 engine was gold block with light Ford blue valve covers, and had a blow-by (crankcase vent) tube. The 289s were gold block with red valve covers and blow-by tube.

[HotrodMerc]

Mike, if i am reading your post correctly, and my eyes are tired at this point, i don't believe you say how close this car is to running, etc., which might have an effect with some of the good suggestions above. Bottom line in my view is based on 1., you seem to know what you would be getting into in a resto., and what kind of shape the car is really in now, 2., you just REALLY want a nice driver, 3. you seem to have enough info. to know that regardless of the actual production position of the car, it is early, and is good fodder for a concours car, for people that want that kind of thing. And you know this question- if you did end up doing even close to a concours resto, which is a good possibility once you got started, would you and/or your wife actually drive it as the daily driver that you want? Probably not, right? So why don't you just sell it as is, take the $$ and find you a nice driver or one to make into the driver you want, with a lot less work and trouble, then drive it and not worry about it? I am biased because i am deep into one of those troublesome resto's. that i don't really want to be spending the time, or $ on, that started to just be a wiring harness and a little paint.