Toyotas All Sludged Up

[TheDealer]

Copied From Automotive News







LOS ANGELES -- Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. has quietly settled a class-action lawsuit that covers about 3.5 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles that may have been damaged by engine oil sludge.



Details of the settlement, which allows for third-party mediation of sludge claims rejected by Toyota, have been mailed to 7.5 million current and previous owners.



Critics contend Toyota has told customers and dealers too little about sludge issues. They say some customers took vehicles with dead engines to dealers who had little or no knowledge of the problem and often assumed it was the owners' fault.



Unhappy customers had no remedy other than hiring a lawyer to go after Toyota.



Under the agreement, owners whose claims have been denied by Toyota may submit them to a third-party mediator at no cost for binding arbitration.



"This settlement breathes life into claims that have been dead for years," said Gary Gambel, a lawyer for plaintiffs who sued Toyota. "This is not a settlement that gives a few dollars to everyone. The relief is exactly tied to the problems and damages that someone might have."



The lawsuit, filed in a Louisiana district court, is expected to be approved by the court in early February.



Toyotas at risk

About 3.3 million Toyota vehicles are susceptible to oil sludge, which can cause thousands of dollars in damage and require replacement of the engine. Here are the vehicles included in the settlement.

VEHICLE MODEL YEARS

Camry 4 cyl. 1997-2001

Camry 6 cyl. 1997-2002

Camry Solara 4 cyl. 1999-2001

Camry Solara 6 cyl. 1999-2002

Sienna 6 cyl. 1998-2002

Avalon 6 cyl. 1997-2002

Celica 4 cyl. 1997-1999

Highlander 6 cyl. 2001-2002

Lexus ES 300 1997-2002

Lexus RX 300 1999-2002





Chink in the armor?



Sludge is gelled oil that fails to lubricate engine parts. It can lead to damage, often requiring a new engine at a cost that can exceed $10,000. Complaints about sludged engines have plagued several carmakers, but Toyota's troubles have been especially controversial in light of its reputation for vehicle quality.



The issue highlights a possible chink in the company's armor. Executives fear Toyota is growing too fast for its engineering resources. That could lead to quality snags and a tarnished reputation.



When a customer takes a sludge-caked engine to a dealership, there is usually a "clean-out" procedure. The head is pulled and a service technician tries try to steam out the sludge. If that doesn't work, the engine must be replaced.



Sludge can result from poor engine design; overly tight tolerances between moving parts; improper cooling; and poor maintenance by consumers.



Toyota insists the problem arises mainly when owners fail to change their oil frequently enough.



The agreement does not find Toyota at fault.



"The settlement doesn't mean that Toyota or Lexus vehicles are predisposed to develop oil gel," according to the notice.



"The court did not decide which side was right."



After Toyota had received 3,400 sludge complaints by 2002 it extended its vehicle warranty to eight years and unlimited miles. The program was offered to owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0-liter V-6 or 2.2-liter four-cylinder engines. The company declined to give an updated number of complaints.



The terms



Under terms of the settlement:

<LI type=square>Owners of damaged vehicles have eight years plus 120 days from the original purchase date to file a complaint.
<LI type=square>If Toyota denies the claim, owners can appeal to a judge-appointed third-party administrator: J. Robert Ates, a New Orleans lawyer.
<LI type=square>Customers who have already made repairs may be able to recover the costs.
<LI type=square>Only those who elect not to participate in the settlement can sue Toyota individually. The deadline for that choice was Dec. 31, 2006.
<LI type=square>The settlement is transferable to future vehicle owners.
<LI type=square>The car only needs to show evidence of oil sludge. It is not necessary for the owner to have made repairs during the claim period.
Damages that can be recovered include loss in value of the vehicle and incidental costs, such as rental cars. Past lawyers' fees, mental anguish and bodily injuries are not covered.
A Toyota spokesman said the agreement is not a defeat for the automaker.




"The settlement validates the customer support program we implemented four years ago," Xavier Dominicis said.



"The terms of the program remain unchanged. There always was a way for customers to appeal our decision."



Plaintiff lawyers disagree. They say Toyota failed to communicate the extent of the problem to its dealers and customers. Toyota's appeal process also meant hiring a lawyer, which many consumers could not afford. It costs nothing to file an appeal with Ates.



"The consumer only needs to show reasonable maintenance in terms of oil changes," Gambel said. "You don't need to prove where the sludge came from, or explain your driving habits. If you have oil sludge, Toyota pays" the consumer.



Consumers can get more information by calling 888-279-4405 or at www.oilgelsettlement.com.



You may e-mail Mark Rechtin at mrechtin@crain.com


Toyota's troubles have been especially controversial in light of its reputation for vehicle quality.

The issue highlights a possible chink in the company's armor. Executives fear Toyota is growing too fast for its engineering resources. That could lead to quality snags and a tarnished reputation

[MarauderTJA]

Interesting. I'd be willing to bet that this is only the tip of the iceberg as time goes down the road. I would like to see something like this have a positive impact on the American Auto industry. But I doubt it. Toyota sales are going through the ceiling. I personally refuse to buy a Japanese or Korean car nameplate ever......

[Joe Walsh]

WHAT???

:eek:

A japanese auto manufacturer with a major recall???....and one that the media actually makes mention of???

(Actually, because most Toyota and Honda owners view their cars as necessary commuting appliances, I'd say that a fair number of these sludge problems resulted from 'poor maintenance by consumers'. "My Toyota is SO reliable, all I ever do is put gas in it!")

[RCSignals]

Too bad it only covers up to 2002 models. I've heard the problem affects newer ones as well.

Nissan also has a problem with engines, but we never hear about that either.

If this had been Ford, or even GM, it would have been in the NEWS every day. As it is not much is being said about it in the media

[MarauderTJA]

As it is not much is being said about it in the media

That is because it would affect the media's revenue stream.

[Crown Vicman]

Is it ok to say "Let the celebration begin"? :lol:

[Ed Tarras]

I also refuse to buy a Jap car. We need to protect our auto industry. Glad to see something is finally getting into the news. In todays market domestic manufacturers can stand up to any import. They (imports) may have been better years ago but not anymore.

[Mike Poore]

It will be interesting to see what their pals at Consumer reports has to say about this one. When the computers were being killed by RF energy from Ham transmitters they argued that 25watts was excessive and wouldn't stand behind the warranty claims. At that time I was running a Killowatt on 75M mobile, with a high "Q" Webster Bandspanner, and would fire it up every time one of those smug bastages pulled up along side the Bronco, and were gawking/laughing at the weirdness hanging on it's bumper. Can't say I ever killed one of 'em though. :rolleyes:

The other thing that comes to mind, was the way the door locks would malfunction and the driver could get trapped in the car. Consumer said it wasn't a big deal, and advised it's readers to get the car anyway, but carry a hammer, just in case they had to break out a window to exit the *^%$# thing. :banned:

[Dennis Reinhart]

This problem has been known for years and it has to do with poor head design, the oil drain holes were to small so what hapens is with head design and operating temps the oil can bake in the drain areas causing the oil to pool in the the head starving the bottom end, I was actualy involved in a small claims over a Toyota camry that was bought by a local Jacksonville woman who was a VP of a local bank she had the oil changed every 3k and they tried to deny the warranty, and I did research and found these issues and problems, and she won her suit against Toyota Dealer ship here

[RCSignals]

............... and she won her suit against Toyota Dealer ship here


Unfortunately Dealrships have been getting stuck with what Toyota (and Nissan in some cases) should be getting stuck with WRT to these awards.

Manufacturers aren't standing behind their cars, so the dealer takes the hit

[TheDealer]

What gets me is, if this was Ford, GM or Chrysler, this would be front page new. Why wasn't this in every news paper and TV news station????

I guess they don't want to look like idiots for lying to the public about the Jap quality!!!

[RedMerc04]

What gets me is, if this was Ford, GM or Chrysler, this would be front page new. Why wasn't this in every news paper and TV news station????

I guess they don't want to look like idiots for lying to the public about the Jap quality!!!
Exactly! This is BS, look at the media attention the Crown Vic's got a few years ago. Sure it was a more dangerous "malfunction" but the media shoved it into your head like there was no tomarrow. Btw, Id like to see any of these unit construction ***** boxes take a rear end hit at atleast 55 mph.... and then see which cars are really safe

[magindat]

Wouldn't surprise me at all if the tree-huggers' demands which helped force extended interval oil-changes contributed to this problem.

[Bluerauder]

WHAT???

I'd say that a fair number of these sludge problems resulted from 'poor maintenance by consumers'. "My Toyota is SO reliable, all I ever do is put gas in it!"
That was my thought too. However, DR's comment above indicates that it happens even on those Toyotas with regular oil changes.... both of them. ;)

If this reliability/sludge problem is so widespread, why do these folks keep going back and buying another one. What's the old saying??? "Once Bitten - Twice Shy". :rolleyes:

[ctrcbob]

Chrysler had/has the same sludge problem with their 2.7 liter V6. Great engine that loves to spin, except it will sludge up.

[RCSignals]

Chrysler had/has the same sludge problem with their 2.7 liter V6. Great engine that loves to spin, except it will sludge up.

Is that one of their Japan made engines?

[RCSignals]

That was my thought too. However, DR's comment above indicates that it happens even on those Toyotas with regular oil changes.... both of them. ;)

If this reliability/sludge problem is so widespread, why do these folks keep going back and buying another one. What's the old saying??? "Once Bitten - Twice Shy". :rolleyes:

for whatever reason people are blindly devoted to their choice of Japanese car model. They will tolerate problems with them that they would never tolerate from Ford, GM or Chrysler.
Just another oddity of human nature.

To listen to some teens and 20-somethings you'd think there are only Japanese auto makers!

[RedMerc04]

To listen to some teens and 20-somethings you'd think there are only Japanese auto makers!
Sad but totally true... :mad2:

[GreekGod]

http://www.boss302.com/oil.htm

[ctrcbob]

RCSIGNALS, no the 2.7 Chrysler Engine is American made. Chrysler may have corrected the problem by now with later made engines, but the early ones were Sludge Monsters.

Check Google for "Chrysler sludge" (or Toyota sludge, or Volkswagen sludge).

[UAW 588]

Copied From Automotive News







LOS ANGELES -- Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. has quietly settled a class-action lawsuit that covers about 3.5 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles that may have been damaged by engine oil sludge.



Details of the settlement, which allows for third-party mediation of sludge claims rejected by Toyota, have been mailed to 7.5 million current and previous owners.



Critics contend Toyota has told customers and dealers too little about sludge issues. They say some customers took vehicles with dead engines to dealers who had little or no knowledge of the problem and often assumed it was the owners' fault.



Unhappy customers had no remedy other than hiring a lawyer to go after Toyota.



Under the agreement, owners whose claims have been denied by Toyota may submit them to a third-party mediator at no cost for binding arbitration.



"This settlement breathes life into claims that have been dead for years," said Gary Gambel, a lawyer for plaintiffs who sued Toyota. "This is not a settlement that gives a few dollars to everyone. The relief is exactly tied to the problems and damages that someone might have."



The lawsuit, filed in a Louisiana district court, is expected to be approved by the court in early February.



Toyotas at risk

About 3.3 million Toyota vehicles are susceptible to oil sludge, which can cause thousands of dollars in damage and require replacement of the engine. Here are the vehicles included in the settlement.

VEHICLE MODEL YEARS

Camry 4 cyl. 1997-2001

Camry 6 cyl. 1997-2002

Camry Solara 4 cyl. 1999-2001

Camry Solara 6 cyl. 1999-2002

Sienna 6 cyl. 1998-2002

Avalon 6 cyl. 1997-2002

Celica 4 cyl. 1997-1999

Highlander 6 cyl. 2001-2002

Lexus ES 300 1997-2002

Lexus RX 300 1999-2002





Chink in the armor?



Sludge is gelled oil that fails to lubricate engine parts. It can lead to damage, often requiring a new engine at a cost that can exceed $10,000. Complaints about sludged engines have plagued several carmakers, but Toyota's troubles have been especially controversial in light of its reputation for vehicle quality.



The issue highlights a possible chink in the company's armor. Executives fear Toyota is growing too fast for its engineering resources. That could lead to quality snags and a tarnished reputation.



When a customer takes a sludge-caked engine to a dealership, there is usually a "clean-out" procedure. The head is pulled and a service technician tries try to steam out the sludge. If that doesn't work, the engine must be replaced.



Sludge can result from poor engine design; overly tight tolerances between moving parts; improper cooling; and poor maintenance by consumers.



Toyota insists the problem arises mainly when owners fail to change their oil frequently enough.



The agreement does not find Toyota at fault.



"The settlement doesn't mean that Toyota or Lexus vehicles are predisposed to develop oil gel," according to the notice.



"The court did not decide which side was right."



After Toyota had received 3,400 sludge complaints by 2002 it extended its vehicle warranty to eight years and unlimited miles. The program was offered to owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0-liter V-6 or 2.2-liter four-cylinder engines. The company declined to give an updated number of complaints.



The terms



Under terms of the settlement:

<LI type=square>Owners of damaged vehicles have eight years plus 120 days from the original purchase date to file a complaint.
<LI type=square>If Toyota denies the claim, owners can appeal to a judge-appointed third-party administrator: J. Robert Ates, a New Orleans lawyer.
<LI type=square>Customers who have already made repairs may be able to recover the costs.
<LI type=square>Only those who elect not to participate in the settlement can sue Toyota individually. The deadline for that choice was Dec. 31, 2006.
<LI type=square>The settlement is transferable to future vehicle owners.
<LI type=square>The car only needs to show evidence of oil sludge. It is not necessary for the owner to have made repairs during the claim period.
Damages that can be recovered include loss in value of the vehicle and incidental costs, such as rental cars. Past lawyers' fees, mental anguish and bodily injuries are not covered.
A Toyota spokesman said the agreement is not a defeat for the automaker.




"The settlement validates the customer support program we implemented four years ago," Xavier Dominicis said.



"The terms of the program remain unchanged. There always was a way for customers to appeal our decision."



Plaintiff lawyers disagree. They say Toyota failed to communicate the extent of the problem to its dealers and customers. Toyota's appeal process also meant hiring a lawyer, which many consumers could not afford. It costs nothing to file an appeal with Ates.



"The consumer only needs to show reasonable maintenance in terms of oil changes," Gambel said. "You don't need to prove where the sludge came from, or explain your driving habits. If you have oil sludge, Toyota pays" the consumer.



Consumers can get more information by calling 888-279-4405 or at www.oilgelsettlement.com.



You may e-mail Mark Rechtin at mrechtin@crain.com


YES!!!! THERE IS A GOD. :banana:

[de minimus]

If this reliability/sludge problem is so widespread, why do these folks keep going back and buying another one. What's the old saying??? "Once Bitten - Twice Shy". :rolleyes:


I think in North America that it has become a conventional wisdom that Japanese cars are "better" in all ways despite individual problems with them. A couple of examples - when I bought my Marauder a enviromentally concious relative pointed out to me that I was contributing to global warming by buying a gas guzzling American (Canadian really, my dear so spare me the kneejerk response) sedan. I looked at their Toyota 4x4 and suggested that they compare Transport Canada fuel mileage estimates for both vehicles. When it was pointed out to her that they were the same, a perplexed look came over her face and the comment "but it's a Toyota...?"
Number 2 - my Dad who is on his third Toyota 4 runner. On all of them he's had to replace the rear window motor at around $1,000 a pop. Sounds like a design defect to me. Now, he has a warning light that's on all of the time telling him his washer fluid is low. $85 to diagnose it and $390 to replace the solenoid. Notwithstanding these problems he swears by Toyota and says that he'd never buy a domestic vehicle because of quality problems with them. At that point I always tell him that I've had no major problems with the last 5 Fords that I've owned and that his 4 Runner costs $$$$ more than a comparable domestic product and really is no better.
Despite the arguments for domestics, he, and thousands like him across N. America remain unconvinced. Conventional wisdom.

[RCSignals]

I think in North America that it has become a conventional wisdom that Japanese cars are "better" in all ways despite individual problems with them. A couple of examples - when I bought my Marauder a enviromentally concious relative pointed out to me that I was contributing to global warming by buying a gas guzzling American (Canadian really, my dear so spare me the kneejerk response) sedan. I looked at their Toyota 4x4 and suggested that they compare Transport Canada fuel mileage estimates for both vehicles. When it was pointed out to her that they were the same, a perplexed look came over her face and the comment "but it's a Toyota...?"
Number 2 - my Dad who is on his third Toyota 4 runner. On all of them he's had to replace the rear window motor at around $1,000 a pop. Sounds like a design defect to me. Now, he has a warning light that's on all of the time telling him his washer fluid is low. $85 to diagnose it and $390 to replace the solenoid. Notwithstanding these problems he swears by Toyota and says that he'd never buy a domestic vehicle because of quality problems with them. At that point I always tell him that I've had no major problems with the last 5 Fords that I've owned and that his 4 Runner costs $$$$ more than a comparable domestic product and really is no better.
Despite the arguments for domestics, he, and thousands like him across N. America remain unconvinced. Conventional wisdom.

That sums it up nicely.
In the US the Marauder is classed as ULEV, I wonder if your relative's Toyota 4x4 is as well?
Seems her 'global warming' observation was based on 'gas guzzling' only and not considering emissions?

[Joe Walsh]

for whatever reason people are blindly devoted to their choice of Japanese car model. They will tolerate problems with them that they would never tolerate from Ford, GM or Chrysler.
Just another oddity of human nature.

To listen to some teens and 20-somethings you'd think there are only Japanese auto makers!

Yeah, but they are SO MUCH FUN to annihilate with my big 4 door sedan!!!

I love watching their expressions when they hear my exhaust on the downshift, listen to the DOHC V8 wail and watch my "slow" American car rapidly pull away from their Rice Rags.

The only thing they are quick with is an excuse as to why they LOST.

"Ahhhhhh.....Ummmmmmm......Ahhh h..... Dude, like my 'NAWZ' malfunctioned and my VTEC was turned off!"

:D

[sailsmen]

The reason why some are blindly loyal to the Japanese cars is because they first became popular during the gas crunch in the early mid 1970's when we were getting 7-8 mpg in domestics vs 20+ mpg in Japanese.

The quality of domestics was absolutely horrible. We bought an Olds Cutom Cruiser Wagon. The engine had to be replaced in the first month becuase it was filled w/ tar. Dealer said strike at plant and a lot of cars had been boobie trapped. The list can go on and on.

[Marauderjack]

The reason why some are blindly loyal to the Japanese cars is because they first became popular during the gas crunch in the early mid 1970's when we were getting 7-8 mpg in domestics vs 20+ mpg in Japanese.

The quality of domestics was absolutely horrible. We bought an Olds Cutom Cruiser Wagon. The engine had to be replaced in the first month becuase it was filled w/ tar. Dealer said strike at plant and a lot of cars had been boobie trapped. The list can go on and on.


What he ^^^^ said x10!!!!!:puke:

The Jap cars were LIGHT YEARS ahead of domestics during that era and those memories have carried A LOT of foreign sales "Momentum" to this day!!;)

Marauderjack:shake:

[cblake]

</B>

The Truth About Toyota Engine Oil Sludge
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com[IMG]http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/ /><o:p></o:p><font face=" /><o:p></o:p>
<FONT face="Times New Roman">Toyota engine oil sludge affects more than the few models and model years covered in Toyota's "Customer Support Program for Engine Oil Gelation." Toyota indicates that 1997-2002 Sienna, Camry, Avalon, Celica, Lexus RX300, and Lexus ES300 are the ones that are sludge-prone. At the same time, it says that these vehicle owners are to blame for the sludge condition. Toyota doesn't include the earlier models or the later models, though. It also doesn't include the Corolla, RAV4, and 4Runner despite the fact that some of these owners are reporting sludge buildup and engine demise. <o:p></o:p>
<FONT face="Times New Roman">The class action lawsuit covers all the models and model years included in the CSP, contrary to the poster's information above. I suppose that Toyota will use any loopholes it can to limit the relief for its valued customers.
<FONT face="Times New Roman"><o:p></o:p>
<FONT face="Times New Roman">Many Toyota owners are reporting that Toyota has required far more engine oil change receipts than what it publicly has stated it would. According to owner accounts, owners continue to be treated poorly in Toyota's alleged effort to limit the number of vehicle owners who qualify under the CSP. In many cases engines are being cleaned when they need to be replaced.
<FONT face="Times New Roman"><o:p></o:p>
<FONT face="Times New Roman">Unfortunately, the class action lawsuit doesn't help those with models not covered under the CSP. It doesn't help those who long ago traded their vehicles when sludge clogged their engines. It doesn't help those Toyota owners whose engines mysteriously threw rods through the engine block. It doesn't do anything for the Toyota owners whose engines spontaneously erupted in fire on the road for no apparent reason. No, there are many Toyota owners left out.
<FONT face="Times New Roman"><o:p></o:p>
<FONT face="Times New Roman">Is Toyota really "listening" to online discussions/reports by its vehicle owners? If so, why isn't the petition being addressed? Why aren't these owners getting a fair resolution in their sludge or engine failure cases? We know that Toyota is tracking the owner postings.
<FONT face="Times New Roman"><o:p></o:p>
<FONT face="Times New Roman">Interestingly enough, someone has been trying desperately to sabotage the Toyota owner petition. Who would care to go to this length to prevent Toyota owner organization? Who would want to end this petition? Hmmmm....
<FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p>
<FONT face="Times New Roman">Charlene Blake
<FONT face="Times New Roman"><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:PersonName>cblake@erols.com</st1:PersonName><FONT face="Times New Roman">
<FONT face="Times New Roman">Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution
<FONT face="Times New Roman">http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html (http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html)<FONT face="Times New Roman">

<o:p></o:p>
[/B]