E-85 tune?

[Leadfoot281]

I've got a few questions on E-85.

Recently Car Craft magazine has built a couple engines for E-85 fuel with very impressive results. As I understand it, E-85 is rated at 105 octane. It also has 30% fewer BTU's than standard gas so injectors (and carbs) need to be enlarged to supply sufficient fuel for the engine.

Wouldn't a "tune" for E-85 be especially beneficial for a Marauder with a supercharger?

My thinking is that the 105 octane would require less advance, be more detonation resistant, and not require methanol injection or possibly even intercoolers.

Can a tune for E-85 be accomplished with the stock Marauder injectors? I assume they would have to run a 30% greater cycle.

Could an E-85 tune possibly eliminate the need for an intercooler and thereby reduce the cost and complexity of Marauder supercharger kits?

Lastly, would an E-85 "tune" in a stock Marauder yeild a performance increase?

[magindat]

That all makes sense. The one caveat would be you would ALWAYS have to run E-85. From what I can tell in teh market, E-85 is still only regionally and not universally available. This would definately limit your travelling radius.

A super idea, nonetheless.

[KillJoy]

That all makes sense. The one caveat would be you would ALWAYS have to run E-85. From what I can tell in teh market, E-85 is still only regionally and not universally available. This would definately limit your travelling radius.

A super idea, nonetheless.


Keey your Tuner in the car = having multiple tunes available for travel :D

KillJoy

[magindat]

Keey your Tuner in the car = having multiple tunes available for travel :D

KillJoy

True, and I though of that. However, it would be very difficult to account for a 'mix' of dino and E-85.

[RR|Suki]

Keey your Tuner in the car = having multiple tunes available for travel :D

KillJoy

doesn't work that way


I've got a few questions on E-85.

Recently Car Craft magazine has built a couple engines for E-85 fuel with very impressive results. As I understand it, E-85 is rated at 105 octane. It also has 30% fewer BTU's than standard gas so injectors (and carbs) need to be enlarged to supply sufficient fuel for the engine.

Wouldn't a "tune" for E-85 be especially beneficial for a Marauder with a supercharger?

My thinking is that the 105 octane would require less advance, be more detonation resistant, and not require methanol injection or possibly even intercoolers.

Can a tune for E-85 be accomplished with the stock Marauder injectors? I assume they would have to run a 30% greater cycle.

Could an E-85 tune possibly eliminate the need for an intercooler and thereby reduce the cost and complexity of Marauder supercharger kits?

Lastly, would an E-85 "tune" in a stock Marauder yeild a performance increase?

Yeah I was at VT yesterday talkin to Scott, and he said if I could run E85 in my car that it would be sweet... I'm already looking into how it would work :confused:

[wchain]

I guess its a good idea. The title of the thread got me thinking that this was for running your MM on a daily basis to save money. I guess I was wrong.


Real world tests have also shown that a vehicle that gets 17 mpg with RUG (regular unleaded gasoline) gets about 11 mpg with E-85. I don't think the MM is E-85 Compatible from the factory. While the Power may be more with the right tune, consumption would be a lot higher.

Just like the Mercedes 300SDL that is my Daily driver. I run B99 Biodiesel, based on new/unused Vegetable or Cottonseed Oil. It gets about 1 MPG less than Petroleum Diesel, but it runs quieter, cleaner and smoother, plus has a much lower impact on the environment, and makes people hungry when I drive by.

[Zack]

Im prety sure you need 100lb/hr or more injectors.
But, im known to be wrong.

[Breadfan]

That was my wonder, if you need more fuel to run E-85 you'll need to be sure the pump and injectors can accommodate....right?

[TooManyFords]

Yep, everything goes up about 30+%. To make up in the drop in MPG you can run a lot more timing being that it is 105 octane. So for grandma, there isn't a lot of benefit.. But racing is just getting turned on to this and it may work out.

Now, where do I get 120lb injectors? (LOL)

John

[cyclopsram]

All new non fleet Panthers can run E85 and gas in any mixture...up to 100 percent E85 from the factory...however Consumer Reports confirms in all their tests, even with ricers, that the mileage drops off 20 or so percent...Corn is for drinkin and Gas is for burnin..RAM

[Leadfoot281]

Last time I looked, E-85 was about $1.50/gallon. It's probably around $1.70 or so right now though. Mathematically I believe this works out to "half a dozen of one or six of the other" when compared to standard pump gas.

Even if the is no major economic advantage to E-85 the performance aspects of it should be looked into. Car Craft magazine got 601HP and 631TQ out of a 6-71 blown 350 Chevy (with 10.2:1 Compression ratio!) and no intercooler. They built the engine, complete from oil pan to carb, for $6,340.

Can a stock MM computor detect octane differences and alter timing and injector pulse width to compensate? Would a custom tune be able to do this?

I have E-85 everywhere here and I'd love to be able to use it.

[KillJoy]

A benifit of E-85 is that fact that is is more environmentally friendly.

E-85 + Biodiesel = Our future....IMO....

KillJoy

[ckadiddle]

.............................. .................Just like the Mercedes 300SDL that is my Daily driver. I run B99 Biodiesel, based on new/unused Vegetable or Cottonseed Oil. It gets about 1 MPG less than Petroleum Diesel, but it runs quieter, cleaner and smoother, plus has a much lower impact on the environment, and makes people hungry when I drive by.
But does your Mercedes go WOO-WOOOO???:lol:

[wchain]

But does your Mercedes go WOO-WOOOO???:lol:

Yes, but only at a very high frequency......

"This should be played at high volume, Preferably in a residential area"

[Lidio]

I have to admit... at this time I've got no experience with E-85 fuels.

I like what little I've read and heard about it, and I think it has great potential once motors that are truly engineered for it start to surface, that is if the demand present itself.

The fact that its around or is officially rated at 105 octane is music to the motor heads ears. I think (and I'm sure this is nothing new) that to truly take advantage of the stuff it would require a engine with pretty decent static compression, and a blower or turbo for sure. I envision a smaller motor with lets say less then or around 4.0L from a OEM and efficiency point of view. It would have no less the 11.5 to 12 to 1 compression or even more, and maybe a small twin screw producing no less then 10-13psi. With the compression being higher and other aspects of the engine truly designed to take advantage of the greater octane of E-85. You'd have what I think would amount to a pretty fuel efficient little motor that would produce big power all around. Now of course this could also be applied to bigger V-8's which plenty of people are already doing with E-85.

The thing that I like so much at a glance about E-85 is that's all their is... one octane, and only one except for the winter version of it that I've heard about.
Just like diesel for the most part, no choice at the pump just one. There's nothing I hate more then the different octanes and regional differences with modern fuels, and the potential for the pumps to mix incorrectly as it goes into your tank. Aside from potential emissions issues that I'm not totally up on, I'm all over one universally higher octane fuel for all cars. Of course there's the older cars and the trillions that cant run on or will run poorly with to much octane.

[Leadfoot281]

From the Feb '07 issue of Car Craft magazine "BDS publishes a chart that equates boost to static compression. A static compression ratio of 10:1 at 8 psi of boost is equal to a normally aspirated engine with 15.4:1 compression ratio."

I haven't been to BDS's website yet, nor am I an engineer, but this number seems to be about right. I figure that a MM with a 15.4:1 CR should make about the same power as one with 8psi.

This sounds like absolutely ideal conditions for 105 octane E-85.

I'm not aware of any seasonal changes in E-85 octane or formulation. I will certainly look into that.

I like the idea of higher compression ratio engines too. Higher mechanical CR's increase volumetric efficiency. The detonation resistance from E-85 would be a great match.

When I find a good rust free chassis for my 351W I plan on building it for E-85. I know the man who built Cale Yarboroughs stock car engines and he also built an alcohol powered '65 Ranchero that got him lots of job offers from Detroit. He choose to remain a relatively unknown Minnesota farmer. Today he holds several Bonneville records and still farms just a few miles from me.

With all due respect, (and no flames intended! I just want to discuss E-85 pros/cons/theory) I'll wait to get a blower for my MM until I can run E-85. I just feel it would be safer since forced induction engines hate detonation.

Why is Car Craft magazine the only ones taking an interest in this stuff?

[Leadfoot281]

One more question; How did the FFV (Flex Fuel Vehical) Taurus handle a 50/50 tank of E-85 and standard pump gas?

How do the other flex fuel vehicals handle it? I assume that the vehicals knock sensor was able to detect pinging and re adjust timing. Am I on the right track and is there more to it than this?:confused:

[magindat]

One more question; How did the FFV (Flex Fuel Vehical) Taurus handle a 50/50 tank of E-85 and standard pump gas?

How do the other flex fuel vehicals handle it? I assume that the vehicals knock sensor was able to detect pinging and re adjust timing. Am I on the right track and is there more to it than this?:confused:

Not sure on exact details, but short story is there's a sensor in the fuel line to adjust tune based on gas/alky just before it hits the engine.

[JonW]

As I understand it, E85 is much more corrosive than gasoline. So things like fuel lines, gaskets, and other soft parts, would need to be changed out to accomodate E85. I believe that the fuel pump and injectors would also need to be changed. If I could see a measureable performance benefit, and if there was someone that could do it and do it right, I'd be very interested in the conversion.

[cruzer]

Don't believe that E 85 will be cheaper than gasoline--it is presently highly subsidised by the Gov't--someone with connections should do a follow up on this--if it is true , this could very well be a bait and switch by our own people--and besides, have you noticed the price on corn derived food products---this thing is hitting everyone's pocketbook---think about it. I'm all for saving the planet--but don't take food from people to make fuel that has other sources. Flame away, but that is how I feel. ( Maybe my 79 years on this planet has tainted my reasoning, but I've been conned before):confused:

[Jeremy]

One more question; How did the FFV (Flex Fuel Vehical) Taurus handle a 50/50 tank of E-85 and standard pump gas?

How do the other flex fuel vehicals handle it? I assume that the vehicals knock sensor was able to detect pinging and re adjust timing. Am I on the right track and is there more to it than this?:confused:


I do believe there is a "flex fuel" sensor, which tells the PCM the percentage of gas/E-85

[Leadfoot281]

Don't believe that E 85 will be cheaper than gasoline--it is presently highly subsidised by the Gov't--someone with connections should do a follow up on this--if it is true , this could very well be a bait and switch by our own people--and besides, have you noticed the price on corn derived food products---this thing is hitting everyone's pocketbook---think about it. I'm all for saving the planet--but don't take food from people to make fuel that has other sources. Flame away, but that is how I feel. ( Maybe my 79 years on this planet has tainted my reasoning, but I've been conned before):confused:


The cost of the corn used in an 18oz box of corn flakes is currently about $0.18. It has risen from about $0.12

Does anyone know why Corn Flakes has gone from $2.90 to $4.00 box? The cost of the corn is clearly NOT the answer.

The only thing removed from the corn is the sugars and alcohol. What's left over is valuable animal feed. Absolutely no one is going hungry over this!

Government subsidy of E-85 is needed. Ethanol plants are spendy! I'm assuming that governement will quit once we have enough plants to get this idea off the ground. Until then 50% the cost of ethanol plants are paid for by guys like me....individual private investers. That means I'm assuming much of the risk.

Yeah, that E-85 sure is killing us!

Also, Scarlett Johansson and I are expecting twins. :rolleyes:

[magindat]

I do believe there is a "flex fuel" sensor, which tells the PCM the percentage of gas/E-85

Only on vehicles labeled as such. Those vehicles also include the appropriately larger duty injectors.

[mrjones]

Currently where I live, the nearest E85 station is a couple of hours away, down in Houston. However, as I'm getting ready to trade my wife's Durango in, I'm thinking of getting her a new pickup with an FFV engine, and putting an auxiliary tank in the bed. That way, I can fill up in Houston with enough E85 to last a little while. I realize that it's not gonna save me any money, but I REALLY like the idea of sending up to 85% less money to the middle east.