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AstroVic
03-02-2007, 12:10 AM
I have a case of the red-#@$%!....

I'm sick and tired of the automotive media's bashing of American-made cars. If you buy their hype, it's almost as if the Hondas/Toyotas of this world are technological marvels with no possibility of breaking down. It's total B.S.!

Let me tell you, as a police officer assigned to the "Motorist Assistance Program" in my county, I see more Hondas/Toyotas/etc. on the side of the road than anything else. My personally-owned Fords/Chevrolets/GMs/etc. have *NEVER* left me stranded on the side of the road.

I've put more than half a million miles on police package Chevrolet Caprices and Ford Crown Vics and I've *NEVER* been stranded. Not once. Never.

For me, it's American cars all the way. I don't give a #@$%! where they're built. I only care that my money goes to American owned companies who build quality products for reasonable prices.

Screw Toyota/Honda/Hyundai/Mercedes/VW/Nissan/et al! They might be good cars, but they're ridiculously overpriced and no better than their American counterparts.

/rant off

Motorhead350
03-02-2007, 12:36 AM
I love what you do for me Toyota!

Leadfoot281
03-02-2007, 03:33 AM
I'll put down Mopar every chance I get. Hey, I can't help it, I'm a Ford guy. It's what I do. :D But if push ever came to shove, I'd rather walk than drive some generic Japanesse car.

One of the things I like most about American cars is their heritage.

You don't have that in ANY Japanesse car. No history. No Celica, Camry or Accord will ever sell for 3 million dollars. Much like a cheap microwave, when they die, they are quickly replaced and easily forgotten.

No one will ever write a song about a Hyundai.

I've read obituarys in the paper describing the decedant as a "life long Ford fan". Even twenty years from now, a similar statement will never be said of a late Hyundai owner.

Master
03-02-2007, 04:43 AM
I also love that Ford has been an industry leader in so many areas in North America (and around the world, I've been told). Remember the Escort in 1981? First North American compact with four wheel independent suspension as I recall. I think ford was also one of the first to put electronic fuel injection on their cars over here, and I know that they were running multiport on the vast majority of their vehicles while Chev was still using throttle body on all but its flagship models.
As an example, though, of how ignorant the public is? When they tech my tempo, they always say "Hey, this has independent rear suspension"! Duh! Since inception in what, 1985? Take a look at the N/A competition - even VW - solid rear beam suspension. You have to wonder why Ford even bothers, actually. The buying public is so oblivious to anything but what the trend setters tell them. Its sickening.
OK. My rant done now, too.
Oh, wait! One more: I have a philosophy and it is this. The less you pay for a car, the less money you likely have to spend on a car, ergo, the less money you have available for maintenance. Inexpensive cars, such as Escorts were, were constantly getting a bad wrap in the early days. Yet, my mother's, Aunt's, Brother (Mr. GT!) and I (lowly Mr L) all had sever hundred thousand Kms on our cars with nary more than a computer chip failing (a problem the aftermarket seemed to fix). Yet, everyone else has heads popping, valve train getting smashed, etc. Get Your Maintanence Done! You will never be rewarded with a good and reliable car if you don't treat it right.
Ok. Really done. Thanks.

RedMerc04
03-02-2007, 05:56 AM
I have a case of the red-#@$%!....

I'm sick and tired of the automotive media's bashing of American-made cars. If you buy their hype, it's almost as if the Hondas/Toyotas of this world are technological marvels with no possibility of breaking down. It's total B.S.!

Let me tell you, as a police officer assigned to the "Motorist Assistance Program" in my county, I see more Hondas/Toyotas/etc. on the side of the road than anything else. My personally-owned Fords/Chevrolets/GMs/etc. have *NEVER* left me stranded on the side of the road.

I've put more than half a million miles on police package Chevrolet Caprices and Ford Crown Vics and I've *NEVER* been stranded. Not once. Never.

For me, it's American cars all the way. I don't give a #@$%! where they're built. I only care that my money goes to American owned companies who build quality products for reasonable prices.

Screw Toyota/Honda/Hyundai/Mercedes/VW/Nissan/et al! They might be good cars, but they're ridiculously overpriced and no better than their American counterparts.

/rant off
Ive felt this way ever since I was able to read Car And Driver..... It just never made any sense why cars that had zero balls, terrible looks and doors that were about 2 inches thick where the greatest cars known to man. I quickly started reading Car Craft and Hot Rod...

Jeffh
03-02-2007, 07:17 AM
Ahh Car and Driver....
Theh have said for literally years now that BMW was the car of the Gods. They never once said a bad thing about them. They were a "driver's car", "finely tuned German touring car..." Well about 3-4 years ago, I went a drove a 330. This was one of the worst cars I have ever driven. The shifter was noodle like, the motor was gutless, the road noise was way too high for what the sticker read...etc. Based on the hype, I was truly and utterly disappointed.
Now the Mini I drove the same day was a ball of fun. I would not want it for trips or anything more than a 2 hour drive, but it was FUN.
That same day I drove an 03 Cobra. It tripped my memory as to why I loved V-8 RWD cars. Lets see the Japs/Germans/Koreans build something with that much intestinal fortitude. Yeah they make high horsepower exotics, but to me the rowdiness and rough edges of an American musclecar is what makes them so appealing. I want to hear the engine, feel the gears when I shift and let my a$$ feel the grain of the road when I am pushing it...

Mach1
03-02-2007, 02:27 PM
Dollar for dollar you can't beat the performance of the Mustang GT, Shelby, Corvette etc. My neighbors Camry with 110,000 miles just had to have the engine changed, my Taurus is still cruzing happily at over 150,000. Another thing, I see that the new Toyota Tundra uses timing belts on the cams. Ford only uses belts on 4 cylinder engines, chains on the Duratec's and Modulars. It wouldn't be much fun changing those things out, or breaking a belt on a 32 valve V8!

Joe Walsh
03-02-2007, 02:37 PM
Speaking of which...

Anyone know where I can buy one of those T-Shirts with the HUGE letters on the back that read:


YOUR
HONDA
SUCKS

....??
I need one to wear for my next trip to the drag strip.
:D

Bigdogjim
03-02-2007, 02:37 PM
Truth is jap cars don't nickel and dime you like American cars do years down the road. I was raised in a L&M Dealership and only one of eight kids that never bought a "jap" car. My wife owns a highlander I don't :) Truth is a very well built SUV.
My '92 F-150 is fast becoming a smart buy after 5 years of no issues:)
Marauder after paint and wiper/light issues is running strong:up:

Bigdogjim
03-02-2007, 02:38 PM
Speaking of which...

Anyone know where I can buy one of those T-Shirts with the HUGE letters on the back that read:


YOUR
HONDA
SUCKS

....??
I need one to wear for my next trip to the drag strip.
:D


Give Dennis a call:)

Bluerauder
03-02-2007, 02:47 PM
I'm sick and tired of the automotive media's bashing of American-made cars.
I have never owned an import brand. Have never been inside an import dealership. Have never had the desire to try out a Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, Mitsubishi, etc. Might consider a BMW. Don't think I am a Saab, Volvo, Mercedes, or Porsche person. Wouldn't turn down a Maybach 57S, Rolls Royce, or Bentley GT if someone gave it to me. But that ain't gonna happen. ;)

ckadiddle
03-02-2007, 02:48 PM
Speaking of which...

Anyone know where I can buy one of those T-Shirts with the HUGE letters on the back that read:


YOUR
HONDA
SUCKS

....??
I need one to wear for my next trip to the drag strip.
:D
Perhaps you mean this shirt?
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f129/ckadiddle/MVC-596F.jpg

Master
03-02-2007, 03:14 PM
Man, you'd want to be careful where you wore it though. We have 10second Hondas here. I'd get my MM's butt kicked, sadly.

2003_MM_FYRE49
03-02-2007, 04:01 PM
Like my late father taught me, I'd rather push my Detroit Iron than drive a foreign car. It is beyond me how year after year Consumer Reports ranks those ***** box jap crap commie cars at the top of the list. I am beginning to think that they are owned by the japs. It amazes me how Toiletota continually ranks number one yet they had the most recalls of any car company last year. I have an idiot brother-in-law that always says "toiletota rules". I put him in his place at last Christmas dinner. I told him "when your hungry see how that ***** box jap crap commie car in your garage tastes on your plate. Buy American, your future and well being depends on it". I would wear that t-shirt anywhere, I don't care if they have 10 second cars or not Your Honda Sucks!

marales
03-02-2007, 04:26 PM
I agree. As a cop I not only see Toyotas and Hondas on the side of the road, they are usally abandoned. I've had to impound more Foreign cars than anything else. This probably happens because the junk heap's repair work is more expensive than buying a reasonably priced used car. The problem isn't that American cars break down more often, it's that people don't maintain their vehicles in proper working order. There is more than putting gasoline in a car. :shake:

Oh P.S. I think Euro P.O.S. cars are overated (and overpriced) as well. I'd rather ride a bike than by a junk P.O.S. foreign car.:nono:

Joe Walsh
03-02-2007, 04:30 PM
Perhaps you mean this shirt?
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f129/ckadiddle/MVC-596F.jpg

WHY YES!!!

THAT is the exact T-Shirt that I was asking about!

Me Likey!

So, DR has them?

glassman99
03-02-2007, 04:43 PM
Whow! REALITY check is in order!!

jinxed
03-02-2007, 05:10 PM
The public also never heard Toyota quietly recalled 9.3 million vehicles since 2004 THANKS media !!!!!!!!!!

glassman99
03-02-2007, 05:25 PM
Fact is that American cars per se is not what the masses want. Check out the latest issue of Consumers Report...there is not an American car in the top 10. UNIONS are what continue to kill the American car. It is pretty clear that when AMERICAN workers build cars that continuously rank in the top 10 and they are made HERE with NON UNION workers where the problem is.

Sorry but FACT Get over it or CHANGE

dwasson
03-02-2007, 06:30 PM
I wish that more of you guys had stayed awake during economics class.

glassman99
03-02-2007, 06:40 PM
You got it.. At some point, we got to stop burying our collective heads in the sand and look at what's happening. American NON UNION workers are building American sourced cars in America. (Albeit, they are Japonese/Korean/German nameplates) They are building them with BETTER QC than American workers in the FORD/GM/CHRYLER plants for FAR less money.

Master
03-02-2007, 07:45 PM
"when your hungry see how that ***** box jap crap commie car in your garage tastes on your plate."
Japan is communist now? When did that happen, exactly?
You might want to let these people know. They seem to have their facts about the Japanese Democratic Parliament in disarray, apparently.
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2136.html
;)

RCSignals
03-02-2007, 09:08 PM
The first Japanese cars (and many that followed) were nothing more than copies of British cars. There is still little original or innovative about Japanese cars, and nothing to styling. It doesn't take long for Japanese car styles to look very 'dated', and they mostly start as very insipid.

The first BMW was a copy of an Austin, the Austin Seven I think, in the '30s.
an interesting beginning for what today everyone sees as great German vehicle and innovator.

dwasson
03-02-2007, 09:12 PM
The first BMW was a copy of an Austin, the Austin Seven I think, in the '30s.
an interesting beginning for what today everyone sees as great German vehicle and innovator.

That same Austin was built in the US by the ancestor of the Jeep. And the first Ford was a buggy with a little motor. What does any of that have to do with today?

Joe Walsh
03-02-2007, 09:47 PM
You got it.. At some point, we got to stop burying our collective heads in the sand and look at what's happening. American NON UNION workers are building American sourced cars in America. (Albeit, they are Japonese/Korean/German nameplates) They are building them with BETTER QC than American workers in the FORD/GM/CHRYLER plants for FAR less money.


You are ignoring the fact that all of the NON UNION factories are relatively new as is their workforce,
so the Japanese/German/Korean manufactureres aren't saddled with silly little things like long term health care and pension plans for retirees...

BTW: I no longer buy the old B.S. about domestic cars and their poor quality.
The problem is that the domestic manufacturers don't offer any products that consumers are excited about buying.
Lincoln's answer to sagging sales is not to offer something inventive/ exciting/powerful like Cadillac does, Lincoln just keeps slapping on more and more garish CHROME.:puke:

RCSignals
03-02-2007, 11:10 PM
That same Austin was built in the US by the ancestor of the Jeep. And the first Ford was a buggy with a little motor. What does any of that have to do with today?

It was just a point of interest.
What has not much to do with it is the first Ford being a buggy with a little motor. In those days pretty much every automobile was a 'horseless carriage'

The 'Austin' built by BMW was not built under any license, it was a straight unauthorised copy. So much for originality.

Master
03-03-2007, 07:11 AM
To touch on a few points from above:
1. The Lincoln MKX (Or whatever its silly letters are) and Edge actually sold much better than Ford had expected, so they must have struck a chord with the public somewhere on that one, extra chrome or not.
2. A lot of these Japanese manufacturers now have a lot of plants in North America. They are also publicly owned, so you could have shares in them just like you could in Ford, Chev, Chrysler. Have you checked with your broker lately to see where your money is invested? Is he putting it into Ford, or Toyota? Have you asked? If he said "Toyota", would you tell him to put it in "Ford"? Remember, its considered "Junk" stock right now, so is your money going to go where your mouth is?
3. Non-union does not mean "communist". In fact, non-union is the ultimate capitalits system. It's how the mine operators used to oppress people in my native Cape Breton Island. They essentially endentured families in the mining towns for life. Their children, too, until the "socialist" idea of unions was able to take hold. However, as long as unions still exist in other plants, places like Toyota and Michelin will continue to have good pay, good benefits becuasee they can't afford to have people point at them and say that inequality is the result of non-union operations. However, when the last union falls, do you think these corporations will feel any compunction whatsoever to maintain high standards of pay, benefits, worked rights?
4. Companies that come here and say if we unionize, we'll close, are blowing smoke. The problem is, our governments are on their side. The proper way to deal with it should be to allow them to leave, but tarrif their products so heavily if they try to bring them into North America that they could not possibly sell a single unit. They would come crawling back, I assure you. This is what the Americas governments did achieve with the Japanese imports. If they weren't assembled here, or had significant components manufactured here, then they would be tarrifed out of existence. Our local Volvo plant was the result of this trade regulation. Sadly, NAFTA ended that as it has for so many. Mexico now gets the industries that once were a significant part of our economies. And until mexico starts importing as much from us as it exports back, we'll continue to have a problem.
5. Unions cxertainly started out as a very good thing, ending the oppression of huge corporations and their government backers. However, unions have in many ways forgotten their true purpose: Protect the oppressed and provide an opportunity for people to earn a fair wage in a fair and safe workplace. Now, instead of going after the millions of workers who are prevented "full time" status and the comensurate benefits they would entail at retailers throughout North America, they sit back and try to keep getting more and more money from the companies that are already unionized, essentially making them uncompetitive and running them into the ground.

I'm not saying all of this to proclaim fact. I'm hoping to encourage a bit of discussion and get us all to think in broader strokes than "Your commie Honda Sucks". Lets look at everything and see where we can make the biggest difference. Ie: If we not only bought Fords, but bought all of the shares we could (which would be a lot at the current prices), then attended the shareholders meetings, maybe we could make a real difference in the company we love.

Some interesting links:

Brief account of unionizing in Cape Breton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Cape_Breton

Brief history of Unions in America: http://www.socialstudieshelp.com/Eco_Unionization.htm

Thoughts? Comments?

Bigdogjim
03-03-2007, 07:22 AM
You got it.. At some point, we got to stop burying our collective heads in the sand and look at what's happening. American NON UNION workers are building American sourced cars in America. (Albeit, they are Japonese/Korean/German nameplates) They are building them with BETTER QC than American workers in the FORD/GM/CHRYLER plants for FAR less money.


It is how the factory is managed. Now Toyota is building a plant in Tn. to build the Highlander/RX300 which is made in Japan. Drive around any main street in American and wonder why you so many Honda's & Toyota's. People will spend money on a product that works and have quality, in cars it is also resale value. Ford has come up short on so many models mostly due to underpowered engines. Look at Marauder. Need I say more.

sailsmen
03-03-2007, 09:44 AM
Most tarriffs are a tax on the consumer to protect overpaid workers.

Master
03-03-2007, 12:01 PM
Interesting thought. In many cases, yes, I would agree. Often complacency and a sense of entitlement cause a workforce and its government to react to competition through protectionist practices. Take the softwood lumber issue between Canada and the US for example.
But when you trade between economies with completely different standards of living and GDP, "overpaid" becomes a very relative and arguable term. To a worker in Mexico, $100 a week might be pretty good, since bread costs 35c, there is public transport (of some sort) to the factory instead of your own car, etc. Compare to an American worker who pays $1.50 for bread, needs a car because public transit is underfunded and underdeveloped. The $100 a week doesn't go to far in America (er, the United States - America is a continent, not a country - sorry). These are two extremely simplistic and perhaps silly comparisons, but they should give the idea about why $100 a week in one country doesn't allow for fair competition in another.

dwasson
03-03-2007, 12:13 PM
Check out this article at Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage)

sailsmen
03-03-2007, 12:38 PM
Due to world peace and changes in technology we are in a global economy.

We need to do things that others cannot or do them better than others can.

As our competitors develop an infrastructure and a better educated work force they are able to compete with us better and better.

Either we close our borders to all outside labor, goods and services, (it did not work in the Soviet Union) or we compete.

If the Mexicans can produce a cheaper/better Ford Taurus then the consumer will buy the Mexican Taurus.

If consumers were not price driven then Walmart would not be the world's largest retailer.

BAD MERC
03-03-2007, 01:28 PM
When I was younger, I drove nothing but GM cars. Until that fateful daily joke was pulled on me in the form of a 1991 Bonneville SSEi Supercharged. I felt like I was on Candid Camera daily. Then it was lovingly wrecked in the side by a stop sign runner. I had to drive it wrecked after making a mint on it. I saw a charcoal gray Toyota Cressida (this was in 1994 BTW) at Bill Branch Chevrolet and tried to buy it on the spot with CA$H. Salesman takes a look at me and says "that car is expensive, can your mommy co-sign for you?" If I remember, I had about $6800.00 cash on me. I left leaving a nice smoke show (I didn't care, the Bonneville was a total loss) and went down the street and got a Ford Probe LX (Mazda 626 drivetrain), loaded with EVERYTHING for $4,000 out the door!!!! Drove that until 205,000 miles and sold it to my cousin. She drove it for thre more years. Bought a 1995 Taurus SE in '97 and put 282,000 miles on it. Replaced one tranny, the radiator and A/C clutch. That is all. Now I have the Marauder and I am a Ford guy to the marrow. I work on cars every day and get to take them apart so I see how they're built. Those of you with newer GM cars and trucks - you have it coming when it comes to replacing stuff. I have a customer with a Plummer (plastic Hummer) H2 and his door latch failed to latch and threw off the security, the door chime and keyless entry. When it was replaced out of warranty it was in excess of $600.00 because it was tied in to a door computer and needed to be programmed in. A 40 dollar part. I hate GM cars with a criminal passion and I was never fond of Chrysler after my brother was stuck with a Neon that had all the paint fly off like teflon primer was used. Honda cars feel old and tired when thay have 60K on the odometer. Toyota's feel like bolt-upright appliances. I have found that simplicity gives me the greatest joy. I have driven a BMW 760 Li with the iDrive system and it is the class-leader for eyes-off-the-road time. I don't need doors that pull closed by themselves or wipers that start when a drop of water hits the glass. I hate Daytime Running Lamps and believe they take away a motorcyclists edge in traffic. Okay, I am done whining.

Blackened300a
03-03-2007, 02:21 PM
I live in America, I work in America, I make money in America, This is why I only buy American.

Master
03-03-2007, 02:21 PM
Good article, Dan. really enjoyed that. I wasn't familiar with the formalized concept. Of course, it does rely heavily on benevolent governments. Too often we find ourselves reaping the benefits of produce or goods from countries that do not benefit equally from trade. Oppressed people in deplorable conditions making little if anything by way of income - certainly at or below the subsistance level - to provide goods to a rich economy. This, of course, is Africa now. In the 1800s and early 1900s, it was in many ways America. So how do we get a world to follow good economic models without the threat of well connected capitalists using government force to keep the playing field as uneven as possible?
This might make an interesting new thread, since its really at the root of "Poeple Bashing American Cars".

sailsmen
03-03-2007, 02:52 PM
There will always be evil, 7% to be exact, in the world. You cannot stop it.

The countries that have the least government involvement in their economies have the highest standards of living.

The countries with the most government involvment, usually in the form of corruption, have the lowest standards of living.

GreekGod
03-03-2007, 04:03 PM
There will always be evil, 7% to be exact, in the world. You cannot stop it.

The countries that have the least government involvement in their economies have the highest standards of living.

The countries with the most government involvment, usually in the form of corruption, have the lowest standards of living.

Corrupt tyrants and governments in Mexico, Central & South America, and Africa come to mind.

GreekGod
03-03-2007, 04:10 PM
I'm no shill for Consumer Reports, but the latest issue (April), is their annual auto issue. They have an excellent essay, "Which companies make the best cars? Global fight with intriguing results", starting on page 16. It covers all the issues mentioned in this thread, and then some.

dwasson
03-03-2007, 05:45 PM
I'm no shill for Consumer Reports, but the latest issue (April), is their annual auto issue. They have an excellent essay, "Which companies make the best cars? Global fight with intriguing results", starting on page 16. It covers all the issues mentioned in this thread, and then some.

Here's a description of the Consumer Reports article. (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119804#2)

GreekGod
03-03-2007, 06:58 PM
The linked commentary is on the whole magazine issue. My referenced article has much more detail.

Joe Walsh
03-03-2007, 09:50 PM
I'm not saying all of this to proclaim fact. I'm hoping to encourage a bit of discussion and get us all to think in broader strokes than "Your commie Honda Sucks".

NO, I only said:

YOUR
HONDA
SUCKS

I never made any political references...:D


Lets look at everything and see where we can make the biggest difference. Ie: If we not only bought Fords, but bought all of the shares we could (which would be a lot at the current prices), then attended the shareholders meetings, maybe we could make a real difference in the company we love.



I did and I have....

Ford does not make anything that I would be interested in buying anymore...except for the new Mustang, and I already own two Mustangs now.

I have bought lots of FORD stock (2500+ shares), and I'm done buying it! No matter how cheap it is now!
What was once a $50,000+ investment is now worth less than $20,000.
I can't afford to snap up FORD stock at such a low $7.50/share current price.
I'm looking to dump all of it....If it EVER crawls above $10/share.:mad:

RCSignals
03-03-2007, 10:22 PM
When I was younger, I drove nothing but GM cars. Until that fateful daily joke was pulled on me in the form of a 1991 Bonneville SSEi Supercharged. I felt like I was on Candid Camera daily. Then it was lovingly wrecked in the side by a stop sign runner. I had to drive it wrecked after making a mint on it. I saw a charcoal gray Toyota Cressida (this was in 1994 BTW) at Bill Branch Chevrolet and tried to buy it on the spot with CA$H. Salesman takes a look at me and says "that car is expensive, can your mommy co-sign for you?" If I remember, I had about $6800.00 cash on me. I left leaving a nice smoke show (I didn't care, the Bonneville was a total loss) and went down the street and got a Ford Probe LX (Mazda 626 drivetrain), loaded with EVERYTHING for $4,000 out the door!!!! Drove that until 205,000 miles and sold it to my cousin. She drove it for thre more years. Bought a 1995 Taurus SE in '97 and put 282,000 miles on it. Replaced one tranny, the radiator and A/C clutch. That is all. Now I have the Marauder and I am a Ford guy to the marrow. I work on cars every day and get to take them apart so I see how they're built. Those of you with newer GM cars and trucks - you have it coming when it comes to replacing stuff. I have a customer with a Plummer (plastic Hummer) H2 and his door latch failed to latch and threw off the security, the door chime and keyless entry. When it was replaced out of warranty it was in excess of $600.00 because it was tied in to a door computer and needed to be programmed in. A 40 dollar part. I hate GM cars with a criminal passion and I was never fond of Chrysler after my brother was stuck with a Neon that had all the paint fly off like teflon primer was used. Honda cars feel old and tired when thay have 60K on the odometer. Toyota's feel like bolt-upright appliances. I have found that simplicity gives me the greatest joy. I have driven a BMW 760 Li with the iDrive system and it is the class-leader for eyes-off-the-road time. I don't need doors that pull closed by themselves or wipers that start when a drop of water hits the glass. I hate Daytime Running Lamps and believe they take away a motorcyclists edge in traffic. Okay, I am done whining.

Nicely said.

Leadfoot281
03-03-2007, 10:34 PM
Never underestimate stupidity.

There are a lot of people out there that base their car buying decision on how many cup holders a vehical has.

Many times I've had people wheel into my driveway and show off their new cars. The very first thing they show me is the "neat-o" cup holders in the dash, seats, doors, seat backs, and center console.

It usually goes something like this;

"Hey Leadfoot! Check it out! I even have an auxillary power plug next to the cigarette lighter so I can run a lap top computor! How cool is that?!"

But dude, you don't even own a lap top computor...

"I could run one though!"

You could also drink 11 Slurpees on your way to work...

"Sure could!"

Is this why you bought the car?

"Well, American cars just don't have the features this one does. Japanesse cars are so much more advanced in terms of technology".

Like the power outlets you'll never use?

"Yep!"

Never underestimate stupidity. Or the power of marketing gew-gaws, bells and whistles, and gimicky useless crap.

Honestly, how many of you tried to "wow" your friends the power adjustable gas/brake pedels in the Marauder? (I did). When was that last time you actually used them? Car mags always report the number of cup holders a car has. And just like my stupid friends, they rate cars based on cup holder/passenger ratio.

Cup holders sell cars. I blame my unused adjustable pedals on picky, stupid magazines that crucify American cars for "lack of features compared to their Japanesse counter parts".

dwasson
03-04-2007, 04:48 AM
Cup holders sell cars. I blame my unused adjustable pedals on picky, stupid magazines that crucify American cars for "lack of features compared to their Japanesse counter parts".

That may all be true. But then all that it means is that Ford is just too damn stupid to build enough cup holders into their cars.

Rule #1 is, The customer is never wrong. If you insist that the people who buy hondas are stupid you will never do what you must do to compete. If the US car market demands 11 cup holders per vehicle you either give them that or you deserve to go out of business.

And the adjustable pedals are a big hit with the old women who drive the Grand Marquis. My Aunt Lucy is about five foot nothing and the pedals were a major reason she bought the GM.

RUSTY
03-04-2007, 06:19 AM
Some of my friends have bought cars recently. One friend sold his two Chevys and bought a two Toyotas. Two of my other friends bought Saturns, one new and one used, They have a low resale so they can be had cheap and they swear by the very very durable powertrain.
Who makes these engines?

Bluerauder
03-04-2007, 07:35 AM
There are a lot of people out there that base their car buying decision on how many cup holders a vehicle has.

I bought the Marauder just for the cup holders. :rolleyes: Seems I was misinformed. :rofl:

not5-0
03-04-2007, 08:00 AM
I live in America, I work in America, I make money in America, This is why I only buy American.That pretty much sums it up. As an American I feel a strong obligation to buy American products. In todays America the almighty dollar prevails over what's right, and buying American is simply "right". Please don't give me an economics lesson about free trade and commerce because nothing will change What is in my heart.:flag:

Master
03-04-2007, 08:34 AM
Yup. If its in your heart, then you don't have to worry about any one discussing or arguing with you. You know the Marauder is made in Canada, though, right? ;)

Peter
03-04-2007, 08:37 AM
I live in America, I work in America, I make money in America, This is why I only buy American.
I live in Canada, I work in Canada, I make money in Canada and USA , This is why I only buy Canadian(manufactured).

UAW 588
03-04-2007, 08:46 AM
As a proud member of the United Auto Workers Union and Ford Motor Company Employee, I'd like to say





JAP CARS SUCK!!!!!!

dwasson
03-04-2007, 10:48 AM
It's the triumph of emotion over education.

Leadfoot281
03-04-2007, 11:09 AM
That may all be true. But then all that it means is that Ford is just too damn stupid to build enough cup holders into their cars.

Rule #1 is, The customer is never wrong. If you insist that the people who buy hondas are stupid you will never do what you must do to compete. If the US car market demands 11 cup holders per vehicle you either give them that or you deserve to go out of business.

And the adjustable pedals are a big hit with the old women who drive the Grand Marquis. My Aunt Lucy is about five foot nothing and the pedals were a major reason she bought the GM.

Nice point about the pedals.

The point I was trying to make was about domestic car manufactures being put in second place by car mags due to losing the cup holder war.(and other trinkets). These are the same magazines that measure interior room in 10ths of inches. Who uses 10ths of inches? How do you divide an inch into tenths? Shouldn't an inch be divided into 16ths?

These same car mags also determine truck of the year on quarter mile times and ease of ingress. This is akin to giving Playmate of the year to the one with the highest grade point average. The BMW iDrive is a perfect example of this.

The customer is always right. The manufactures should stop pretending that Consumer Reports/Car and Driver/Motor Trend is the customer. People have also got to stop making car purchases based on faulty/irrelevant/bogus tesing procedures and useless trivial statistics published by the same magazines.

I'd be OK with buying a car based on a magazine review if they used my testing standards. They don't. The test a car (or truck) and it passes or fails based on what they feel it should be like. As it is now, it's just a long running, and not very funny, joke.

Dr Caleb
03-04-2007, 11:13 AM
I bought the Marauder just for the cup holders. :rolleyes: Seems I was misinformed. :rofl:

That's exactally what I was thinking. My car is not a restaraunt, therefore cupholders are redundant.

But I have been known to put a piping hot Timmies into one while on long road trips. So I guess ONE cupholder per car is needed. :)

not5-0
03-04-2007, 11:18 AM
Yup. If its in your heart, then you don't have to worry about any one discussing or arguing with you. You know the Marauder is made in Canada, though, right? ;)I was aware of that....I do believe FOMOCO is an American company therefore I consider the Marauder a product of an American company regardless of where it is built.....:canada: :flag:

dwasson
03-04-2007, 11:38 AM
People have also got to stop making car purchases based on faulty/irrelevant/bogus tesing procedures and useless trivial statistics published by the same magazines.

Why do people have make their decisions based on what you think is right?

People buy the things they do because these things meet a perceived need. If you are shopping for a transportation appliance to move you and your troop to Wal-Mart and Grandma's, cup holders may be a major differenciator.

When we bought our Jeep in 1994 the major decision point was the configuration of the cargo area. There are dozens of other reasons to choose the Cherokee, or the Explorer, or the Blazer, but the one that mattered to us was how well the dog crates fit into the back.

When the wife bought her last Accord her major reason was that he last four Hondas had been reliable and easy to live with. She had owned Ford, GM, and Chryslers in the past and had been let down by all of them. The Hondas have never broke down and left her on the side of the road. Think about it, if your last experience with a manufacturer was negative you would try another manufacturer. If the company that abused your trust comes back and says, "Give us another chance. We're a lot better now", wouldn't you ask yourself why you should change when the company you've been dealing with since then has always given good value? Until Honda gets her PO'd Ford is not likely to get another chance.

When I bought my Marauder, it was the only American built car I looked at. There was/is not another American car that interests me enough to ask the salesman what it costs. If the Marauder was not there I would be in a Honda, Toyota, or Nissan now. So, with Ford discontinuing the one car that I liked, should I reward them by buying something that I don't want?

If cupholders, fractions of inches in Consumer Reports tests, or autocross times, is what drives the consumer's decision making then Ford's management is guilty of fiduciary malfeasance by not giving customers what they want. Unfortunately, Ford management's poor decision making is likely to cost some people their jobs. I feel bad about that, but not bad enough to drive something I don't want.

Mach1
03-04-2007, 12:17 PM
It's the triumph of emotion over education.


Or maybe the triumph of living only for today, over planning for the long term.

Green96
03-04-2007, 01:40 PM
I was always a Ford or Chrysler man, but then I let myself be lured in by the dark side. I purchased a 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GT. After 1 year and 4 months I was able to unload the biggest POS that I have ever owned. I felt lucky when I only had to fork over a check for $350 to the new owner to cover my loss on the heap. There were to many issue to count, but the last straw was not the problems. It was the way I was treated. That is why I will never own another GM product again.

So, when I went looking for a replacement (it was my wifes car by the way) what could I do. Chrysler was off my list thanks to my 2002 Dodge Dakota and the neverending game or replace the warped rotors, and Ford just didn't have anything to offer (she wanted small to mid-sized FWD and sorry but the Taurus was a turd). I got her a VW Jetta.

I did not want to to an import, but in one way all of the domestics had failed me (mechanical issues / lack of product offering). The sad thing is, the VW was the best new car I have ever purchased (my Marauder was used so it doesn't count).

On the bright side, she is now in a Mercury Milan. It is 10 months old, and working perfectly. Hope it stays that way.

GreekGod
03-04-2007, 03:42 PM
I'm only 5'6" tall, with ape-like features. The power adjustable pedals are a nice extra on the Panther platform. Granny can hug the steering wheel, even if she shouldn't. I keep my seat all the way back, and the pedals never get re-adjusted because I'm the only driver. It is supposed to be safer to stay as far back from the airbag as possible.

Leadfoot281
03-04-2007, 03:57 PM
Wasn't Motor Trend magazine busted back in the ninties in a scandal involving GM? IIRC they were taking money from them in exchange for positive reviews.

All I can say is that, yes, I agree. Car mags do bash on American cars. A lot. Some deserve it. Most don't. But car mags that NEVER bash on Japanesse or European cars are clearly showing a bias.

I think it would be fun to see what those editors drive. Maybe they are just like my ex-girlfriend. She still thinks all cars need $500/month in repairs. What did she drive?

Several Chrysler K-cars. (Omnis, Horizons, and Daytonas)
Several V-6 Cavaliers.
A Chevy Citation.
A Geo Storm.
A Chevy LUV.
A Chrysler Cirrus.

That is a list that will make anyone hate American cars.(notice how there are no Fords on the list?). I pointed that out to her and POOF! She's gone...:confused:

Dan, you should look at American Standard (AMSTD).Their stock is doing great. I got in it 10 years ago and I've seen it split three ways. Last time I checked, it's up 19% YTD. Also, buying Hondas probably won't help your Ford stock.

dwasson
03-04-2007, 04:16 PM
We're not settling aything with this thread. So, let me ask the obvious question that nobody wants to address. If you think that everyone should buy american cars, what are you willing to do to see that happen? Would you use government to address this issue? Are you willing to reduce your neighbor's freedom to buy and drive what they want? Would you make everyone in the country pay more for cars by applying tariffs? How would you fix it?

Bigdogjim
03-04-2007, 05:01 PM
We're not settling aything with this thread. So, let me ask the obvious question that nobody wants to address. If you think that everyone should buy american cars, what are you willing to do to see that happen? Would you use government to address this issue? Are you willing to reduce your neighbor's freedom to buy and drive what they want? Would you make everyone in the country pay more for cars by applying tariffs? How would you fix it?


Can not fix it with Goverment. You are free to buy which ever product suits your needs or price range. Market driven.

Master
03-04-2007, 06:11 PM
Honestly, I think Ford (or GM, or whomever) could fix it themselves if they just had good leadership and marketing. However, as long as they keep using faulty focus groups and getting led around by leaders without a clue, we'll keep seeing them decline. We're the die-hards and the conscious consumers. Two points of view I've heard here are: "I'll buy American because its what I believe in" and "I'll buy the best product for me".
The first example, if followed by everyone, would yield Ford unprecedented success over its import rivals. The second would require real action on Ford's part. I can't imagine that we as a group are so terribly unique, and no doubt are a fair representation of the general public. This means that what is going to have to happen is that Ford must start making vehicles that stir something in the general buying public that the foreign counterparts cannot.
Is this stating the obvious? Thoughts?

dwasson
03-04-2007, 06:25 PM
Honestly, I think Ford (or GM, or whomever) could fix it themselves if they just had good leadership and marketing. However, as long as they keep using faulty focus groups and getting led around by leaders without a clue, we'll keep seeing them decline. We're the die-hards and the conscious consumers. Two points of view I've heard here are: "I'll buy American because its what I believe in" and "I'll buy the best product for me".
The first example, if followed by everyone, would yield Ford unprecedented success over its import rivals. The second would require real action on Ford's part. I can't imagine that we as a group are so terribly unique, and no doubt are a fair representation of the general public. This means that what is going to have to happen is that Ford must start making vehicles that stir something in the general buying public that the foreign counterparts cannot.
Is this stating the obvious? Thoughts?

I think that MM.NET members are not representative of the greater North American market. We care and pay more attention to cars than most of our neighbors. How many of your neighbors spend time on a internet forum discussing their car? Most of them don't even want to keep oil in their cars, much less spend lifespan arguing about which brand of oil is better.

People on this board like the types of cars that the american companies build and are more willing to cut the companies slack when they build a car that doesn't perform. One sign of how out of the mainstream this group is shows in how many MM.NET members suggest that Ford can cure their problems by building more high performance cars. High performance cars are not where the money is. The money is in the dull transportation appliances that we ignore, except when they are in our way. Suggesting that people buy american cars while other cars are better suited to their needs means that you are willing to enable the american car companies to avoid having to make better cars.

Ultimately, Ford needs to be producing good boring cars so that they are availble when a customer gets PO'd at Honda or Toyota. That is how the Japanese took that market share in the first place.

Master
03-04-2007, 06:32 PM
Indeed, that was actually my point. Ford needs better market research and better marketing. The people from our web to whom I was referring were not the ones proclaiming just the MM, but all the other cars in their fleet, many of which are not North American. Look at their list of reasons for buying non-domestic.
Perhaps I was too long winded in getting there. I have a history of that.

dwasson
03-04-2007, 06:34 PM
Can not fix it with Goverment. You are free to buy which ever product suits your needs or price range. Market driven.

There's the answer. You can complain that other people should behave like you would want but, in a market driven economy it is incumbent on the manufacturers to produce things that consumers want to buy.

The government can tax things, or subsidize other things, or use other powers to influence people's choices. These actions inevitably cause larger problems.

Master
03-04-2007, 06:42 PM
So, is this the end of our beloved thread?

dwasson
03-04-2007, 06:47 PM
So, is this the end of our beloved thread?

Nah, Godwin's Law hasn't been invoked.

Leadfoot281
03-04-2007, 07:11 PM
I think that MM.NET members are not representative of the greater North American market. We care and pay more attention to cars than most of our neighbors. How many of your neighbors spend time on a internet forum discussing their car? Most of them don't even want to keep oil in their cars, much less spend lifespan arguing about which brand of oil is better.

People on this board like the types of cars that the american companies build and are more willing to cut the companies slack when they build a car that doesn't perform. One sign of how out of the mainstream this group is shows in how many MM.NET members suggest that Ford can cure their problems by building more high performance cars. High performance cars are not where the money is. The money is in the dull transportation appliances that we ignore, except when they are in our way. Suggesting that people buy american cars while other cars are better suited to their needs means that you are willing to enable the american car companies to avoid having to make better cars.

Ultimately, Ford needs to be producing good boring cars so that they are availble when a customer gets PO'd at Honda or Toyota. That is how the Japanese took that market share in the first place.

I agree 100%.

For me though, it would take one heck of a screw up by Ford for me to go anywhere else. Some see me as part of the problem. Maybe I am. I'll never know if Toyota (or any other brand) is better since I won't buy one. I don't care if others do. I just hate to see people jump ship over (what I see as)minor stuff.

I won't see a movie based on some critics review, nor will I buy a car based on some magazine. Overall I'd say that mags that review cars have zero credability. Why trust a $3.50 magazine on a $35,000 purchase?

dwasson
03-04-2007, 07:20 PM
I agree 100%.

For me though, it would take one heck of a screw up by Ford for me to go anywhere else. Some see me as part of the problem. Maybe I am. I'll never know if Toyota (or any other brand) is better since I won't buy one. I don't care if others do. I just hate to see people jump ship over (what I see as)minor stuff.

You've never owned a '79 Granada or a 74 Pinto.

RCSignals
03-04-2007, 08:47 PM
You've never owned a '79 Granada or a 74 Pinto.

Both ok in their class at that time.

The Pinto/Bobcat were good cars.

RCSignals
03-04-2007, 08:51 PM
It's the triumph of emotion over education.

That applies to many buyers of Japanese cars. Most that I know.

ChiTownMaraud3r
03-04-2007, 09:22 PM
Has anyone else seen that commercial from ford, about Car & Driver rating the Ford Fusion highest among all of the competition? Not that I care what C&D thinks, but that commercial kept me from changing the channel as fast as I usually do, and thought it was kind of surprising that they would have rated it the "best" in its class.

grzellmer
03-04-2007, 09:25 PM
Here's a description of the Consumer Reports article. (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119804#2)

How can anyone with a brain believe this drivel? "Toyota is the most reliable vehicle?" At 9.3 MILLION vehicles recalled last year they had more than the next THREE automakers combined.

Consider the Source, a wise man once said.

BAD MERC
03-04-2007, 09:35 PM
Toyota is reliable. I don't consider a recall a reliability issue. When you get too comfortable building bulletproof vehicles - you may have an oversight in one production aspect that may be caught down the road. But... Camrys and Corollas do not get anybody's blood pumping. Neither do most vehicles for that matter. Cars once invoked a passion and said something about the driver. If you drive a Camry, Accord, Malibu, Taurus or Sebring it says " I only need A - B transportation and nothing more Those vehicles are made for those who do not know how to shop for a car and are happy with appliances.
How can anyone with a brain believe this drivel? "Toyota is the most reliable vehicle?" At 9.3 MILLION vehicles recalled last year they had more than the next THREE automakers combined.

Consider the Source, a wise man once said.

05GTMach70
03-04-2007, 11:59 PM
America makes good cars. So do other countries. it is all basically based on what they want to promote and why..

dwasson
03-05-2007, 04:57 AM
Both ok in their class at that time.

The Pinto/Bobcat were good cars.

Cars like the Granada and the Pinto are a big reason that the japanese companies grabbed as much of the market as they have. There was a huge difference in driving a Pinto or a Datsun 510, or even a Corolla. The Granada was a POS that my bride brought with her. It came into the shop on the hook 14 times in the first two years she owned it. Finally, it caught fire on the side of the freeway in one of the scariest neighborhoods in St Louis. My wife grabbed her purse and watched it burn.

GreekGod
03-05-2007, 07:28 AM
(CR mag)
Best and worst in new car owner satisfaction
Would you buy your car again?


With the results in from our biggest owner-satisfaction survey ever, more U.S. models made the Most Satisfying list, although Japanese models still dominate. Seven domestic models made the top cut this year, compared with only four last year. Japanese models fell from 31 to 26; European models increased from 9 to 11. And a South Korean model is on the list for the first time: the Hyundai Azera.

Owner-satisfaction Ratings are determined by the percentage of those who answered "definitely yes" to the following survey question: “Considering all factors (price, performance, reliability, comfort, enjoyment, etc.), would you get this car if you had to do it all over again?”

Overall, 45 models earned the highest Rating, meaning they drew a thumbs-up from at least 80 percent of owners. This list (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/reliability/would-you-buy-that-car-again-406/best-and-worst-models/best-and-worst-models.htm) included many sporty or powerful V8-equipped cars as well as fuel-efficient cars, showing that both ends of the spectrum generate passion among owners. On the other hand, thirstier pickups, SUVs, and minivans made up 24 of 28 vehicles on the Least Satisfying (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/reliability/would-you-buy-that-car-again-406/best-and-worst-models/best-and-worst-models.htm) list, meaning fewer than 50 percent of owners said they’d definitely buy or lease them again.

The bottom line. The Toyota Prius ranks as the most satisfying vehicle overall for the fourth straight year, with 92 percent of owners saying they’d get another one. Second place again goes to the Chevrolet Corvette. The Chevrolet Uplander minivan was the lowest--ranked model in the survey.

Oh, what a feeling, Toyota (or Corvette)!

Dr Caleb
03-05-2007, 10:21 AM
How can anyone with a brain believe this drivel? "Toyota is the most reliable vehicle?" At 9.3 MILLION vehicles recalled last year they had more than the next THREE automakers combined.

Consider the Source, a wise man once said.

Exactally, consider the source of the recalls. What problem were they trying to address?

Let's see, 533,000 Tundras recalled due to a suspension problem. 4 Million total for electrical and steering. I don't know where that 9.3 million comes from but . . .

From here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/recalls/list_e.asp

drill down to 'Toyota' and click on 'Search". the same recall shows up for model years 2004 - 2007.

<blockquote>On certain vehicles, the connection at the intermediate shaft or the intermediate extension shaft may become loose or the intermediate shaft sleeve may develop a crack under certain operating conditions. The connection may separate or the shaft sleeve may fracture, which could result in the loss of steering control and an increased risk of a crash. Correction: Dealers will replace the steering intermediate shaft. In addition, the dealer will inspect the sliding yoke and the intermediate extension shaft and replace them if necessary. </blockquote>

So, it's a serious steering problem.

Knowing about the problems with our transmissions, paint, axels, overheating on cylynders 7 & 8, wire harness chafing, Tire wear . . . and knowing that car manufacturers aren't going to do a recall unless the cost of fixing it is less than the cost of lawsuits; So, my question is: Do you think Toyota having more recalls makes them a better or worse manufacturer than Ford/Mercury?

sailsmen
03-05-2007, 10:52 AM
My quality experience w/ FORD and GM in the mid to late 1970's was horrifying.

In the early 1980's we switched to BMW and Porsche. Better quality and reliability but still had problems.

In the mid 1980's switched to Honda and Toyota. Very good quality and no problem.

Late 1980's to present switched to Ford. Some cars have been excellent and some have had reliability issues. Ford's reliability seems to go up and down.

davidholland
03-05-2007, 11:44 AM
I could not agree more,I made the mistake once of owning a mazda SE-5 Pick-up,a late eighties version not a re-badged ranger,It was junk I sold when it had only 24K. Car 7 driver and the like are written by flag-burning hippies who are over-educated derlicts and have no real interest in cars!

They drove mommies toyota celica & datsun 210's in the seventies and thought they would save the world. I have a 1974 ranchero with a 302 the to this day runs like a swiss time piece,pump the gas twice touch the key and it starts right up! And that when quality was supposed to be bad!

anyway i could go on for hours over this. I'm done

Bluerauder
03-05-2007, 11:59 AM
The Granada was a POS .... It came into the shop on the hook 14 times in the first two years she owned it.

Twelve times would have been enough for me. :rofl:

Leadfoot281
03-05-2007, 12:05 PM
You've never owned a '79 Granada or a 74 Pinto.

I owned a '78 Mercury Monarch and a '74 Pinto. The Monarch had 100k miles and I put another 30k on it. I replaced the master cylinder shortly after paying $500 for it. I had no other problems with it. The mono-leaf rear suspension did sag a lot though.

I really can't give a fair review of the Pinto. I never titled it and I just used it for ice fishing. Occasionally I'd wheel through town with it when the cop was at home or off duty. I paid $50 for it and sold it for $50.

Say what you want about these two cars. I see far more of them rolling around today than similar year Datsuns.

JVJ
03-05-2007, 01:04 PM
I have a case of the red-#@$%!....

I'm sick and tired of the automotive media's bashing of American-made cars. If you buy their hype, it's almost as if the Hondas/Toyotas of this world are technological marvels with no possibility of breaking down. It's total B.S.!

Let me tell you, as a police officer assigned to the "Motorist Assistance Program" in my county, I see more Hondas/Toyotas/etc. on the side of the road than anything else. My personally-owned Fords/Chevrolets/GMs/etc. have *NEVER* left me stranded on the side of the road.

I've put more than half a million miles on police package Chevrolet Caprices and Ford Crown Vics and I've *NEVER* been stranded. Not once. Never.

For me, it's American cars all the way. I don't give a #@$%! where they're built. I only care that my money goes to American owned companies who build quality products for reasonable prices.

Screw Toyota/Honda/Hyundai/Mercedes/VW/Nissan/et al! They might be good cars, but they're ridiculously overpriced and no better than their American counterparts.

/rant off"A-MEN" to that bro!. I will never go import. "I stay "FORD" all the way. "GO FORD"!!!!<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"> </v:shapetype> (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))<v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/ /><o:lock aspectratio=</o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 12.75pt; HEIGHT: 21pt" o:button="t" href="javascript<b></b>:void(0)" alt=":ford:" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Ford%20Flag.GIF" src="file:///C:\TEMP\msohtml1\01\clip_image 001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape> (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))

Shora
03-05-2007, 06:15 PM
0123456789

Shora
03-05-2007, 06:31 PM
The public also never heard Toyota quietly recalled 9.3 million vehicles since 2004 THANKS media !!!!!!!!!!


How can anyone with a brain believe this drivel? "Toyota is the most reliable vehicle?" At 9.3 MILLION vehicles recalled last year they had more than the next THREE automakers combined.

Consider the Source, a wise man once said.

<FONT face=Verdana><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com[IMG]http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/ /><st1:City><st1:place><font color=" /><st1:City><st1:place><st1:City><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Toyota</st1:place></st1:City><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana> may recall a lot of cars but at least they STAND BY THEM!

<FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=black>Forget the problems with my previous Fords. My Marauder has had the "smoke on start up issue" which we all know is caused by faulty heads in early production Marauders (like mine build 06/02) and Ford refuses to recall or even FIX the problem (while under original warranty or ESP).

<FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=black>I cannot imagine a brand new <st1:City><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Toyota</st1:place></st1:City><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana> smoking on start up and having them not take care of the problem under warranty.

<FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=black>Also, since my car is an 06/02 build I could be having the soft axle issue. Ford choose to recall ALL fleet panther vehicles built in that time frame but refuses to even INSPECT my axles.

<FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=black><?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>So PLEASE do me a favor and do not criticize <st1:City><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Toyota</st1:place></st1:City><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana> for having many recalls. At least they own up to known problems and fix them no matter what the cost is to them. They will lose money on a recall before they take advantage of their customers.<o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana><o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>The same CANNOT be said of FORD who is clearly cheating me by refusing to address these issues.

<FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=black>We have 8 FORDS in my family. If they want to make it 9 they better step up and take care of me or money will be going elsewhere.<o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana><o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>The other Fords in my family (E-150s, Crown Vic, Explorers, and Expedition) have been far from trouble free but none had such clear cut issues that should have been fixed under recall and refused.<o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana><o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>I have never owned anything other than Ford or Chevy in my life but I am sick of being taken advantage of by them. If you saw the build quality and, more importantly, the service my brother gets on his Odyssey you have a hard time insulting the imports with a straight face. <o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana><o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Lastly, in my book, our Marauders are more of an import than the imports since many Hondas/ Toyotas are BUILT HERE by middle class Americans and not Mexicans/ Canadians <o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana><o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>This is my post from this thread-<o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana><o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=467745#post46 7745<o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana><o:p></o:p>
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>…for the record, buying a Toyota/ Honda that is built in the USA helps more middle class Americans (like me and probably most of you) then buying a Marauder or other Fords built in Canada/ Mexico.

<FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=black>I care about giving jobs to middle class Americans and NOT white color executives. Helping Ford, while they move many of their plants and operations over seas does not help me (or you) in anyway. Buying a <st1:City><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Toyota</st1:place></st1:City><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>/ Honda that is built here gives honest jobs (with honest pay) to the Americans that I care about-The Hard Working Middle Class.

<FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=black>F__K Elena Ford and all the other executives. They do NOTHING for me. If they want me to remain loyal (my last 3 cars/ trucks were Fords and 8 currently in my family) they better produce a better product than their competition and <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>BUILD IT HERE! I want my money going to the middle class here in the <st1:country-region><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>USA</st1:place></st1:country-region><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana> and not the middle class of <st1:country-region><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Mexico</st1:place></st1:country-region><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>/ <st1:country-region><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>.

<FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=black>Also, do not give me that b/s why they have to build them in <st1:country-region><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Mexico</st1:place></st1:country-region><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>/ <st1:country-region><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana> because it is cheaper. If Honda and <st1:City><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Toyota</st1:place></st1:City><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana> (<st1:City><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Toyota</st1:place></st1:City><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana> has 9 plus plants here in the <st1:country-region><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>US</st1:place></st1:country-region><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>) can build cars/ trucks here and make a profit so can they.
</st1:place></st1:City>

Master
03-05-2007, 06:42 PM
Actaully, Honda and Toyota build a lot of their cars here (Canada), too. As for not wanting them built outside of the US, do keep in mind it is part of what equalizes the trade balance. Without back-and-forth trade across the border you might not have the leverage you need when it comes time to request the purchase of:
- Softwood lumber
- Uranium
- Oil (you still need that, right?)
- gypsum
- steel
- Nickel
- REAL beer

And here I thought this thread had died and gone to heaven...

jgc61sr2002
03-05-2007, 07:14 PM
The first time I washed my Marauder the headlights fogged up.
Brought it to the dealer of purchase (also purched a GM in 2000) and the gave me a stroke job. Went to another dealer I knew (Ford) and they were replaced no probelm. Do you think I would by another car from the first dealer. I think not.

I always got excellent treatment from so called foriegn car dealers.

sailsmen
03-05-2007, 07:34 PM
Balance of trade is illogical and irrelevant.

We buy alot of goods from Walmart and they do not buy anything from me.

We buy Fords and Ford does not buy anything from me.

Agent M79
03-05-2007, 07:42 PM
Article Name: Best and Worst

Under the "Most Impressive" and listed first:

Ford Fusion / Mercury Milan:
As expected, these replacements for the Taurus and the Sable are practical and roomy. But we were unexpectedly impressed with their nimble handling and comfortable ride, which make them feel more like expensive European cars. Unlike many new cars in their first year, their reliability has been excellent.


So there you have it. Maybe Ford can get one right and maybe Consumer Reports can say so.

I have only had domestic branded vehicles all of my life with one exception. I can say that mile for mile that the non-domestic brand has had far fewer problems (and right now I can't think of one) and when I drive it I beat the snot out of it. My wife is the daily driver and my treatment of it seems like coddling compared to the Mistress of Distress.

My dad also has only had domestics until this last car. Same story. He says he is pretty sure he doesn't remember where the dealership is but he knows the names of all the service guys and managers at the domestic dealerships. Claims to have drank 1000 bladders full of crappy dealer coffee over his life.

Only being able to vouch for myself, I am not part of some conspiracy to stick it to America or Americans. I can't speak for my father.

Whatever elixer the foreign guys have slipped into the magazine writers coffee or have seeded into the clouds over the USA to make so many people believe that their 'equal or lesser than quality cars' are so much better than domestics, I think it is high time the domestics tap into that same resource.

I love my Marauder, misbuild issues and all. I loved my T-Bird, Mark VII, all my Chevy's and Pontiacs that came before them. I love the fluid fill and tire rotation only relationship my family has had with a couple of non-domestics too. Guess we'll see which way it goes.

marauder307
03-05-2007, 08:07 PM
Well, here we go....

"Jap cars suck, buy American."

Why?

Last two cars I've owned were/are American. Both were headaches...the Marauder was a TSB bandit; the last six months that I owned it were a never-ending stream of trips to the shop for various fixes. While Matson Shipping Lines/American Auto Logistics can take some of the credit, Mercury's not completely off the hook...that suspension wasn't new, radical, or different; it was an amalgamation of parts from the CVPI line (which should have made it damn near to bulletproof) and stuff out of the SVT parts bins. It shouldn't have broken as easily.

And if the Marauder was bad, the Bonneville GXP I've got has been even worse. First year of ownership, the damages have been:

---wait three months for a new switch panel for the driver's computer. Broke
at 3000 miles.
---wait two months for a new steering intermediate shaft. Broke at 4500 miles, and had to switch to another Pontiac dealer because the selling dealer refused to honor the warranty issue (which is a long-winded way of saying "they told me to pack sand").
---wait another two months right after that for a new foglight assembly.

So far so good after that...we're up to a whole 9500 miles on the clock now, and I spend my time waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Now...can any of you tell me what a Japanese car is?

Toyota? Nope. They're built in Tennessee and Ohio...doesn't sound Japanese to me.

Honda? Nope. Built the same places. Still doesn't sound Japanese to me.

Not only that, but I test drove an Acura TL-S a few months back. It would've handily spanked a stock Marauder (granted, there ain't many of those around though) and had a bunch of really nice features on it, like a backup camera that kicked on when you put it in reverse. I couldn't get that on my Marauder, and there was at least one time when I bumped that oh-so-nice rear fascia on the inside of my parking stall at my condo at St. Louis. Fortunately for me, the stall was built of wood...no damage incurred to either car or structure.

Shoot, let's stretch the geographical area out a bit. Hyundai's Korean. Where are they built?

My hometown. Montgomery, Alabama.

I can vouch for this place...IT'S NOT KOREAN. Although there are a few that seem to have washed up there...

So...back to my original question: What's a Japanese car?

The answer, for those of you who haven't figured it out yet, is---there isn't one. There are only Japanese companies; there are no Japanese cars.

So technically the rant that kicked this thread off is incorrect, although I'll let that pass.

'Nuff of that. Now, onto to the whole "Buy American, the life you save may be your own" blather....

Hey look...I'd love to buy American. I think it would be great. But there's a reason why the old Big Three won't go near Detroit anymore, and that's the American autoworker. Certainly, I will agree that when they started, there was a need for them; the workers needed protection from vindictive employers. Great. Outstanding idea.

But nowadays, the unions are totally obstructionist and an outright hindrance. Were I an American autoworker, I most definitely would not want these corrupt ***holes to represent my needs at the bargaining table. I'm willing to come to work in the cold (he!!, is there any other kind of temperature in Detroit?), and I don't give a scheisse about the lack of cappucino machines in the breakroom. Shoot, the medical care/coverages---ALONE---for your standard-issue UAW employee these days are 10X better than anything I get in MY job...

...and I'm a federal employee at the GS-12 level. I don't even get dental coverage.

The workers actually need to take this situation into their own hands and change the very operating paradigm of the unions themselves. Otherwise, the Big Three will continue to outsource to the lowest bidder. It's up to you...do something about it, or don't.

As for me? Well, the next car I plan on getting, after I make out of this Hawaiian hell, is a Dodge. And that's not American either; it's built in Brampton, Ontario (Canada), and over 50% of the parts come from Mercedes-Benz---which is German. So there.

'Nuff said.

marauder307
03-05-2007, 08:25 PM
Well, here we go....

"Jap cars suck, buy American."

Why?

Last two cars I've owned were/are American. Both were headaches...the Marauder was a TSB bandit; the last six months that I owned it were a never-ending stream of trips to the shop for various fixes. While Matson Shipping Lines/American Auto Logistics can take some of the credit, Mercury's not completely off the hook...that suspension wasn't new, radical, or different; it was an amalgamation of parts from the CVPI line (which should have made damn near to bulletproof) and stuff out of the SVT parts bins. It shouldn't have broken as easily.

And if the Marauder was bad, the Bonneville GXP I've got has been even worse. First year of ownership, the damages have been:

---wait three months for a new switch panel for the driver's computer. Broke
at 3000 miles.
---wait two months for a new steering intermediate shaft. Broke at 4500 miles, and had to switch to another Pontiac dealer because the selling dealer refused to honor the warranty issue (which is a long-winded way of saying "they told me to pack sand").
---wait another two months right after that for a new foglight assembly.

So far so good after that...we're up to a whole 9500 miles on the clock now, and I spend my time waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Now...can any of you tell me what a Japanese car is?

Toyota? Nope. They're built in Tennessee and Ohio...doesn't sound Japanese to me.

Honda? Nope. Built the same places. Still doesn't sound Japanese to me. Not only that, but I test drove an Acura TL-S a few months back. It would've handily spanked a stock Marauder (granted, there ain't many of those around though) and had a bunch of really nice features on it, like a backup camera that kicked on when you put it in reverse. I couldn't get that on my Marauder, and there was at least one time when I bumped that oh-so-nice rear fascia on the inside of my parking stall at my condo at St. Louis. Fortunately for me, the stall was built of wood...no damage incurred to either car or structure.

Shoot, let's stretch the geographical area out a bit. Hyundai's Korean. Where are they built?

My hometown. Montgomery, Alabama.

I can vouch for this place...IT'S NOT KOREAN. Although there are a few that seem to have washed up there...

So...back to my original question: What's a Japanese car?

The answer, for those of you who haven't figured it out yet, is---there isn't one. There are only Japanese companies; there are no Japanese cars.

So technically the rant that kicked this thread off is incorrect, although I'll let that pass.

'Nuff of that. Now, onto to the whole "Buy American, the life you save may be your own" blather....

Hey look...I'd love to buy American. I think it would be great. But there's a reason why the old Big Three won't go near Detroit anymore, and that's the American autoworker. Certainly, I will agree that when they started, there was a need for them; the workers needed protection from vindictive employers. Great. Outstanding idea.

But nowadays, the unions are totally obstructionist and an outright hindrance. Were I an American autoworker, I most definitely would not want these corrupt ***holes to represent my needs at the bargaining table. I'm willing to come to work in the cold (he!!, is there any other kind of temperature in Detroit?), and I don't give a scheisse about the lack of cappucino machines in the breakroom. Shoot, the medical care/coverages---ALONE---for your standard-issue UAW employee these days are 10X better than anything I get in MY job...

...and I'm a federal employee at the GS-12 level. I don't even get dental coverage.

The workers actually need to take this situation into their own hands and change the very operating paradigm of the unions themselves. Otherwise, the Big Three will continue to outsource to the lowest bidder. It's up to you...do something about it, or don't.

As for me? Well, the next car I plan on getting, after I make out of this Hawaiian hell, is a Dodge. And that's not American either; it's built in Brampton, Ontario (Canada), and over 50% of the parts come from Mercedes-Benz---which is German. So there.

'Nuff said.

TRP460
03-05-2007, 09:45 PM
Well, here we go....

"Jap cars suck, buy American."

Why?

Last two cars I've owned were/are American. Both were headaches...the Marauder was a TSB bandit; the last six months that I owned it were a never-ending stream of trips to the shop for various fixes. While Matson Shipping Lines/American Auto Logistics can take some of the credit, Mercury's not completely off the hook...that suspension wasn't new, radical, or different; it was an amalgamation of parts from the CVPI line (which should have made damn near to bulletproof) and stuff out of the SVT parts bins. It shouldn't have broken as easily.

And if the Marauder was bad, the Bonneville GXP I've got has been even worse. First year of ownership, the damages have been:

---wait three months for a new switch panel for the driver's computer. Broke
at 3000 miles.
---wait two months for a new steering intermediate shaft. Broke at 4500 miles, and had to switch to another Pontiac dealer because the selling dealer refused to honor the warranty issue (which is a long-winded way of saying "they told me to pack sand").
---wait another two months right after that for a new foglight assembly.

So far so good after that...we're up to a whole 9500 miles on the clock now, and I spend my time waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Now...can any of you tell me what a Japanese car is?

Toyota? Nope. They're built in Tennessee and Ohio...doesn't sound Japanese to me.

Honda? Nope. Built the same places. Still doesn't sound Japanese to me. Not only that, but I test drove an Acura TL-S a few months back. It would've handily spanked a stock Marauder (granted, there ain't many of those around though) and had a bunch of really nice features on it, like a backup camera that kicked on when you put it in reverse. I couldn't get that on my Marauder, and there was at least one time when I bumped that oh-so-nice rear fascia on the inside of my parking stall at my condo at St. Louis. Fortunately for me, the stall was built of wood...no damage incurred to either car or structure.

Shoot, let's stretch the geographical area out a bit. Hyundai's Korean. Where are they built?

My hometown. Montgomery, Alabama.

I can vouch for this place...IT'S NOT KOREAN. Although there are a few that seem to have washed up there...

So...back to my original question: What's a Japanese car?

The answer, for those of you who haven't figured it out yet, is---there isn't one. There are only Japanese companies; there are no Japanese cars.

So technically the rant that kicked this thread off is incorrect, although I'll let that pass.

'Nuff of that. Now, onto to the whole "Buy American, the life you save may be your own" blather....

Hey look...I'd love to buy American. I think it would be great. But there's a reason why the old Big Three won't go near Detroit anymore, and that's the American autoworker. Certainly, I will agree that when they started, there was a need for them; the workers needed protection from vindictive employers. Great. Outstanding idea.

But nowadays, the unions are totally obstructionist and an outright hindrance. Were I an American autoworker, I most definitely would not want these corrupt ***holes to represent my needs at the bargaining table. I'm willing to come to work in the cold (he!!, is there any other kind of temperature in Detroit?), and I don't give a scheisse about the lack of cappucino machines in the breakroom. Shoot, the medical care/coverages---ALONE---for your standard-issue UAW employee these days are 10X better than anything I get in MY job...

...and I'm a federal employee at the GS-12 level. I don't even get dental coverage.

The workers actually need to take this situation into their own hands and change the very operating paradigm of the unions themselves. Otherwise, the Big Three will continue to outsource to the lowest bidder. It's up to you...do something about it, or don't.

As for me? Well, the next car I plan on getting, after I make out of this Hawaiian hell, is a Dodge. And that's not American either; it's built in Brampton, Ontario (Canada), and over 50% of the parts come from Mercedes-Benz---which is German. So there.

'Nuff said.

I feel your pain ...

BTW, did you notice the "Consumer Reports" link provided by "GreekGod" in this thread (#77)? Check out the car that scored #1 in the "most satisfying / large car" catagory!

<TABLE borderColor=#ffffff cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=250 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #fff 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; BORDER-TOP: #fff 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px; FONT: bold 0.75em arial; VERTICAL-ALIGN: top; COLOR: red; PADDING-TOP: 5px" align=middle colSpan=2>LARGE CARS</TD></TR><TR><TD class=darkblue align=middle>Model</TD><TD class=darkblue align=middle>Percentage*</TD></TR><TR><TD class=darkblue>Dodge Charger (V8)</TD><TD class=darkblue>
83


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=darkblue>Hyundai Azera</TD><TD class=darkblue>
81


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=darkblue>Toyota Avalon</TD><TD class=darkblue>
81


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=darkblue>Buick Lucerne (V8)</TD><TD class=darkblue>
80


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

After almost one year of driving mine, I can't disagree with their scoring results ...

RCSignals
03-05-2007, 11:09 PM
I feel your pain ...

BTW, did you notice the "Consumer Reports" link provided by "GreekGod" in this thread (#77)? Check out the car that scored #1 in the "most satisfying / large car" catagory!

<table border="0" bordercolor="#ffffff" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="250"><tbody><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid rgb(255, 255, 255); border-right: 1px solid rgb(255, 255, 255); padding: 5px; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; font-size: 0.75em; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: ; vertical-align: top; color: red;" colspan="2" align="center">LARGE CARS</td></tr><tr><td class="darkblue" align="center">Model</td><td class="darkblue" align="center">Percentage*</td></tr><tr><td class="darkblue">Dodge Charger (V8)</td><td class="darkblue">
83


</td></tr><tr><td class="darkblue">Hyundai Azera</td><td class="darkblue">
81


</td></tr><tr><td class="darkblue">Toyota Avalon</td><td class="darkblue">
81


</td></tr><tr><td class="darkblue">Buick Lucerne (V8)</td><td class="darkblue">
80


</td></tr></tbody></table>

After almost one year of driving mine, I can't disagree with their scoring results ...

Probably because it's built in Canada with a Mexican engine and obsolete German engineering

RCSignals
03-05-2007, 11:17 PM
<st1:city><st1:place>

I cannot imagine a brand new <st1:city><st1:place>Toyota</st1:place></st1:city> smoking on start up and having them not take care of the problem under warranty.

.............

<o:p></o:p>
So PLEASE do me a favor and do not criticize <st1:city><st1:place>Toyota</st1:place></st1:city> for having many recalls. At least they own up to known problems and fix them no matter what the cost is to them. They will lose money on a recall before they take advantage of their customers.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
............
</st1:place></st1:city>

You don't really believe that do you?

Toyota step up right away and fix something without question? Try again.

Toyota's are perfect from the factory, so they don't have problems that need to be fixed! That is the attitude, and it apples equally to Honda and Nissan.

They certainly stepped up willingly and addressed the sludge issue promptly, and the steering issue, and,.....

Shora
03-06-2007, 12:31 AM
You don't really believe that do you?

Toyota step up right away and fix something without question? Try again.

Toyota's are perfect from the factory, so they don't have problems that need to be fixed! That is the attitude, and it apples equally to Honda and Nissan.

They certainly stepped up willingly and addressed the sludge issue promptly, and the steering issue, and,.....

First, I hope that you are not taking personal offense to anything that I have said. Just trying to give my point of view.

Answer this for me. Just on this board, how many people have 300As with smoke on start up? Only a handful were LUCKY enough to get it fixed. Those heads should have been recalled. No new car should be smoking on start up these days.

How can you explain the "soft axle" recall ONLY for fleet vehicles? My car should have been recalled as well since it was built in the time frame of the recall. At the very least, they should at least inspect them and make sure that they are safe.

I went to 3 dealers and all said that the Ford Hotline would not authorize them to even inspect these issues.

I called Ford Customer Service and gave the Vin # to the 8 Fords that are currenty in my family and they still refused to offer me any help with these issues.

I have businesses to run. I have to spend time with my family and friends. I do NOT need to be chasing down every Ford dealer hoping to get LUCKY. Ford should have recalled my Marauder for those problems (and others) and chose not to.

I wonder is I will choose or allow my family to spend money with them again?

dwasson
03-06-2007, 04:46 AM
Does the recall on F150 cruise control switches mean that F150s are junk?

dwasson
03-06-2007, 04:47 AM
I feel your pain ...

BTW, did you notice the "Consumer Reports" link provided by "GreekGod" in this thread (#77)? Check out the car that scored #1 in the "most satisfying / large car" catagory!

<TABLE borderColor=#ffffff cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=250 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #fff 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; BORDER-TOP: #fff 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px; FONT: bold 0.75em arial; VERTICAL-ALIGN: top; COLOR: red; PADDING-TOP: 5px" align=middle colSpan=2>LARGE CARS</TD></TR><TR><TD class=darkblue align=middle>Model</TD><TD class=darkblue align=middle>Percentage*</TD></TR><TR><TD class=darkblue>Dodge Charger (V8)</TD><TD class=darkblue>
83


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=darkblue>Hyundai Azera</TD><TD class=darkblue>
81


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=darkblue>Toyota Avalon</TD><TD class=darkblue>
81


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=darkblue>Buick Lucerne (V8)</TD><TD class=darkblue>
80


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

After almost one year of driving mine, I can't disagree with their scoring results ...

You're cherry picking results, and very small differences at that.

sailsmen
03-06-2007, 07:36 AM
How many Toyota engines have gone bad because of "oil sludge"? How many paid Toyota large sums of money for a new engines?

It wasn't until the class action suits started that Toyota started responding.

A friend of my wife's bought a new engine for her Toyota and beleived it was her fault for not changing the oil enough.

RCSignals
03-06-2007, 12:44 PM
Does the recall on F150 cruise control switches mean that F150s are junk?

It would seem so

RCSignals
03-06-2007, 12:53 PM
First, I hope that you are not taking personal offense to anything that I have said. Just trying to give my point of view.

No problem, I didn't


Answer this for me. Just on this board, how many people have 300As with smoke on start up? Only a handful were LUCKY enough to get it fixed. Those heads should have been recalled. No new car should be smoking on start up these days.

I'm not sure how many, I don't think it is that many from what I've read here.
A small puff of blue smoke just on start up is something to be that concerned about? I've seen it on many other cars.




How can you explain the "soft axle" recall ONLY for fleet vehicles? My car should have been recalled as well since it was built in the time frame of the recall. At the very least, they should at least inspect them and make sure that they are safe.

I went to 3 dealers and all said that the Ford Hotline would not authorize them to even inspect these issues.

I called Ford Customer Service and gave the Vin # to the 8 Fords that are currenty in my family and they still refused to offer me any help with these issues.

I have businesses to run. I have to spend time with my family and friends. I do NOT need to be chasing down every Ford dealer hoping to get LUCKY. Ford should have recalled my Marauder for those problems (and others) and chose not to.

I wonder is I will choose or allow my family to spend money with them again?

Do you have an axle problem now? Are you just anticipating one?

For whatever reason, and I don't think Ford is alone on this approach, they are taking the view that fleet vehicles have harder driving and more miles, and will/may fail sooner. Regular owners/vehicles may never experience a problem. (not every axle is bad) They take the view that if your axle displays and you report a problem, they will inspect and repair.
Ford won't pay a dealer to just inspect "in case'.

They did the same with the early plastic manifolds, and many of those have still not cracked.

What you choose to buy next is up to you, just don't expect perfection or different treatment in such issues.

sailsmen
03-06-2007, 01:33 PM
My car does not puff blue smoke on start up.

I had the axels replaced at 70K when I had the rear carrier replaced. The bearing surfaces were tore up from being soft. I had no symptoms.

Look at my sig, no defective heads here.

RCSignals
03-06-2007, 02:20 PM
........

I had the axels replaced at 70K when I had the rear carrier replaced. The bearing surfaces were tore up from being soft. I had no symptoms.

......

and that is the issue. I'm guessing Ford would ask at what point/mileage did the axles start to deteriorate.
We all know they should allow dealers to at least inspect, but dealers won't because if they don't find anything when an issue has not been reported, Ford will not pay. If a dealer is convinced to inspect just on the customer requesting it, and does find a failure, supposedly Ford will then pay for the inspection, and replace the axles.

sailsmen
03-06-2007, 03:48 PM
The kit that Ford offered was very reasonable. 2 axels, bearings, seal, etc for less than the cost of one axel.

davidholland
03-08-2007, 04:18 PM
One thing that everybody agrees on here is a passion for a truly unique car.

I wanted my Marauder because it was the most exciting thing to come along since the Impala SS (yes I said it!) The truth is Ford just does not get it!

what killed the MM was price and lack of performance in stock trim! When you have people who are passionate for cars like this Ford needs to build upon that not kill it!

this whole site exists for a car that was made for 2 model years and ended production 3 model years ago. That should tell you something!

RCSignals
03-08-2007, 05:22 PM
One thing that everybody agrees on here is a passion for a truly unique car.

I wanted my Marauder because it was the most exciting thing to come along since the Impala SS (yes I said it!) The truth is Ford just does not get it!

what killed the MM was price and lack of performance in stock trim! When you have people who are passionate for cars like this Ford needs to build upon that not kill it!

this whole site exists for a car that was made for 2 model years and ended production 3 model years ago. That should tell you something!

well actually many marauders sold for well below msrp. Performance in stock trim was good and as advertised, just not as much as what some enthusiasts wanted.

What killed the Marauder was a lack of any real marketing. Few knew it even existed.

murphypeople
03-10-2007, 10:53 PM
There is no such thing as an “American car company.” They have not existed for many years. They are “Multi-national” corporate empires that exist for the global elite to exploit the non-elite people of the earth. You should notice that when these enormous multi-national companies, even phone companies, when they layoff “their” people/slaves they hire less expensive people/slaves in other countries. Mathematics is mathematics an engineer is an engineer, when properly schooled and trained. If a multi-national can get the same output from an $80k engineer in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Seattle</st1:place></st1:City> and a $5k engineer in India/Pakistan/China…guess who loses. Not the multi-national. “When your neighbor is out of work it is a recession. When you are out of work it is a depression.”
That said...my blood is as red/white/blue as any of you. I am former military and all that... I looked real hard at Toyota, subaru for my daily driver. That idea did not sit real well with me, even thought I standby, right or wrong, what I say above. When I discovered my MM...not knowing the model even existed...I thought "right a$$ right seat" right price.
I was glad to spend my $$,$$$ on a symbol of Americana.
And that is that for me.
Tony:burnout:


I have a case of the red-#@$%!....

I'm sick and tired of the automotive media's bashing of American-made cars. If you buy their hype, it's almost as if the Hondas/Toyotas of this world are technological marvels with no possibility of breaking down. It's total B.S.!

Let me tell you, as a police officer assigned to the "Motorist Assistance Program" in my county, I see more Hondas/Toyotas/etc. on the side of the road than anything else. My personally-owned Fords/Chevrolets/GMs/etc. have *NEVER* left me stranded on the side of the road.

I've put more than half a million miles on police package Chevrolet Caprices and Ford Crown Vics and I've *NEVER* been stranded. Not once. Never.

For me, it's American cars all the way. I don't give a #@$%! where they're built. I only care that my money goes to American owned companies who build quality products for reasonable prices.

Screw Toyota/Honda/Hyundai/Mercedes/VW/Nissan/et al! They might be good cars, but they're ridiculously overpriced and no better than their American counterparts.

/rant off

dwasson
03-11-2007, 06:54 AM
There is no such thing as an “American car company.” They have not existed for many years. They are “Multi-national” corporate empires that exist for the global elite to exploit the non-elite people of the earth. You should notice that when these enormous multi-national companies, even phone companies, when they layoff “their” people/slaves they hire less expensive people/slaves in other countries. Mathematics is mathematics an engineer is an engineer, when properly schooled and trained. If a multi-national can get the same output from an $80k engineer in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Seattle</st1:place></st1:City> and a $5k engineer in India/Pakistan/China…guess who loses. Not the multi-national. “When your neighbor is out of work it is a recession. When you are out of work it is a depression.”
That said...my blood is as red/white/blue as any of you. I am former military and all that... I looked real hard at Toyota, subaru for my daily driver. That idea did not sit real well with me, even thought I standby, right or wrong, what I say above. When I discovered my MM...not knowing the model even existed...I thought "right a$$ right seat" right price.
I was glad to spend my $$,$$$ on a symbol of Americana.
And that is that for me.
Tony:burnout:

Modern economics does not support slavery. The ownership business model is inefficient. The slavery model required them to feed workers that weren't producing. Now they use a leasing model. When they have no use for a worker they just stop making payments.

sailsmen
03-11-2007, 08:58 AM
If only you were willing to pay $100 for blue jeans and $75,000 for a Marauder the overseer could keep the American slave on the Plantation.

Dr Caleb
03-11-2007, 11:23 AM
Modern economics does not support slavery. The ownership business model is inefficient. The slavery model required them to feed workers that weren't producing. Now they use a leasing model. When they have no use for a worker they just stop making payments.

Modern economics is totally out to lunch. As a wise man once said 'The real world is a special case to the modern economist'.

And in this wonderful new system, 'slavery' has simply been replaced with 'debt'.

[dons fireproof suit]

RCSignals
03-11-2007, 02:19 PM
Modern economics is totally out to lunch. As a wise man once said 'The real world is a special case to the modern economist'.

And in this wonderful new system, 'slavery' has simply been replaced with 'debt'.

[dons fireproof suit]

So what is new or modern about that?

murphypeople
03-12-2007, 07:08 PM
The recurrent theme throughout all economic models appears to be exploitation of the meek by the elite of the society. Slavery or indentured servitude is not foreign to mankind’s economic models. It is the exploitation of man at the hand of his fellow man that makes for oppression and hardship. There is a better way. In a word selflessness. To bad mankind can not make it work long term. Maybe there is a reason for that.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>
Flame suit on…:flamer:

dwasson
03-12-2007, 07:15 PM
The recurrent theme throughout all economic models appears to be exploitation of the meek by the elite of the society. Slavery or indentured servitude is not foreign to mankind’s economic models. It is the exploitation of man at the hand of his fellow man that makes for oppression and hardship. There is a better way. In a word selflessness. To bad mankind can not make it work long term. Maybe there is a reason for that.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>
Flame suit on…:flamer:

That is crap. If you were selfless you wouldn't be on this forum. Maybe the Focus forum, or the used Pinto forum, or even the bus riders forum. Society has been advanced by people pursuing their self interest. Self interest is honorable and the only reliable force to advance the human condition.


Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded- here and there, now and then- are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty. This is known as "bad luck." - Robert Heinlein

Master
03-12-2007, 07:16 PM
Socialism. Flame suit also engaged.

Dr Caleb
03-13-2007, 11:01 AM
Socialism. Flame suit also engaged.

Careful! That enters the realm of politics, a subject that may not be discussed here. We are discussing 'economics.'


That is crap. If you were selfless you wouldn't be on this forum. Maybe the Focus forum, or the used Pinto forum, or even the bus riders forum.

I think you are confusing 'selfless' with 'treehugger'. One can drive a Porsche and still volunteer their time to a homeless shelter. Spreading one's good fortune (or hard work) is not dependent on the car we drive.



Society has been advanced by people pursuing their self interest. Self interest is honorable and the only reliable force to advance the human condition.

Advanced, yes. Honourable, yes. But there is no advancement in greed. Many who are rich do advance society, many do not. Many in debt only work to pay the interest on that debt, only to acquire more debt. And Banks, and Credit Card companies, and Oil companies all keep on reporting record profits.

<blockquote>If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go now from us in peace. We ask not your counsels nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were ever our countrymen. - Samuel Adams</blockquote>

TheDude
03-13-2007, 10:09 PM
I have a case of the red-#@$%!....

I'm sick and tired of the automotive media's bashing of American-made cars. If you buy their hype, it's almost as if the Hondas/Toyotas of this world are technological marvels with no possibility of breaking down. It's total B.S.!

Let me tell you, as a police officer assigned to the "Motorist Assistance Program" in my county, I see more Hondas/Toyotas/etc. on the side of the road than anything else. My personally-owned Fords/Chevrolets/GMs/etc. have *NEVER* left me stranded on the side of the road.

I've put more than half a million miles on police package Chevrolet Caprices and Ford Crown Vics and I've *NEVER* been stranded. Not once. Never.

For me, it's American cars all the way. I don't give a #@$%! where they're built. I only care that my money goes to American owned companies who build quality products for reasonable prices.

Screw Toyota/Honda/Hyundai/Mercedes/VW/Nissan/et al! They might be good cars, but they're ridiculously overpriced and no better than their American counterparts.

/rant off

So why don't you give me your German owned/built Charger? :D

Master
03-14-2007, 08:06 AM
I don't think the Charger is built in Germany. It also won't be owned by Germany for much longer. Sadly, Aston Martin isn't really owned by Ford anymore. Heard yesterday that they sold the majority for about $800 million to a group of investors. That should spell the end of Aston Martin for sure.

Bluerauder
03-14-2007, 09:28 AM
I don't think the Charger is built in Germany.
According to the list below, the Dodge Charger is built in Canada.

What is an American Car ?

The following list was obtained from the April 2007 issue of Consumer Reports, page 19. I assume those models missing are built in the county of the nameplate. However, the Mercury Gran Marquis is missing (must be an option to the CV). When you add “parts content” to the equation, the picture becomes even fuzzier.

Built in South Korea

USA-Chevrolet Aveo

Built in Mexico

USA-Buick Rendevous
USA-Cadillac Escalade ESV & EXT
USA-Chevrolet Avalanche
USA-Chevrolet HHR
USA-Chevrolet Silverado (some)
USA-Chevrolet Suburban (some)
USA-Chrysler PT Cruiser
USA-Dodge RAM (some)
USA-Ford F-Series (some)
USA-Ford Fusion
USA-GMC Yukon (some)
USA-Lincoln MKZ
USA-Mercury Milan
JAP-Honda Accord
JAP-Nissan Sentra
JAP-Nissan Versa
JAP-Toyota Tacoma
GER-Volkswagen Jetta
GER-Volkswagen New Beetle

Built in Canada

USA-Buick LaCrosse
USA-Chevrolet Impala
USA-Chevrolet Monte Carlo
USA-Chevrolet Silverado (some)
USA-Chrysler 300
USA-Chrysler minivans (some)
USA-Dodge Charger
USA-Ford Crown Victoria
USA-GMC Sierra (some)
USA-Pontiac Grand Prix
JAP-Acura MDX
JAP-Honda Civic (some)
JAP-Honda Pilot (some)
JAP-Honda Ridgeline
JAP-Lexus RX350
JAP-Toyota Matrix
JAP-Toyota Corolla

Built in United States

JAP-Acura TL
GER-BMW X5
JAP-Honda Accord (some)
JAP-Honda Civic (some)
JAP-Honda CR-V (some)
JAP-Honda Odyssey (some)
KOR-Hyundia Sonata
JAP-Infiniti Q56
JAP-Mazda 6
JAP-Mazda Tribute
GER-Mercedes M-Class
GER-Mercedes R-Class
JAP-Mitsubishi Galant
JAP-Nissan Altima
JAP-Nissan Maxima
JAP-Nissan Pathfinder
JAP-Nissan Titan
SWE-Saab 9-7X
JAP-Subaru Legacy
JAP-Toyota Camry (some)
JAP-Toyota Sienna
JAP-Toyota Tundra

Dr Caleb
03-14-2007, 11:11 AM
According to the list below, the Dodge Charger is built in Canada.

However, the Mercury Gran Marquis is missing (must be an option to the CV).

The list is very incomplete. The Charger is built in the same plant as the Magnum and Chrysler 300. They aren't on the list ethier.

Lincon Town Car isn't listed . . . and that's just a quick look.

RCSignals
03-14-2007, 12:50 PM
The list is very incomplete. The Charger is built in the same plant as the Magnum and Chrysler 300. They aren't on the list ethier.

Lincon Town Car isn't listed . . . and that's just a quick look.

Yes there are a whole lot more built in the US.

From what I've read, 'F-series' trucks are no longer buit in Mexico with the exception of some larger than F450.

(Ford should never have sold it's Large truck division (now Sterling) )

rumble
03-14-2007, 01:34 PM
What killed the Marauder was a lack of any real marketing. Few knew it even existed.

That and Elena.

RCSignals
03-14-2007, 06:44 PM
Yes, but I'd like to think that had there been good and wide marketing, resulting in sales, Elena's negative opinion would have been over ruled.

she was wrong about it not being a car for women anyway. Many women bought the car, and many love it.

Aren Jay
04-22-2007, 03:13 PM
Have Ford sell it's cheap cars for 20% less than compareable Japanese cars.

Have our North American Governments make a quota you sell one car made overseas, or with oversea's made parts. You must let us sell a NA made car or parts car in your country.

Have Ford give every car the same options from a total list of options available.

4WD, seats that you like, with or without console, sunroof as a buyer option on any car, Tilt steering wheel not the stupid tilt column. Any colour option.

I would love to have a supercharger optioned 6.8L V10 Marauder with bright red paint, tan leather interior, no console but with the floor shifter poking out of the carpet. Red carpet and floor mats. Quad auto air conditioning, L length addition for the rear seats. Select Trac 4wd. A factory roof rack and towing package capable of hauling 12,000 Lbs. with seperate gear range for towing. Upgraded Brakes, adjustable air ride suspension height and Xenon headlights. Add a winch and brush guard and i'm thrilled. And the Mustang like any colour you want backlighting. With a T roof.

You might want something different and given a choice it would likely mean that no two cars would ever be the same again.

Go Modular.

GreekGod
04-22-2007, 04:46 PM
Have Ford sell it's cheap cars for 20% less than compareable Japanese cars.

Have our North American Governments make a quota you sell one car made overseas, or with oversea's made parts. You must let us sell a NA made car or parts car in your country.

Have Ford give every car the same options from a total list of options available.

4WD, seats that you like, with or without console, sunroof as a buyer option on any car, Tilt steering wheel not the stupid tilt column. Any colour option.

I would love to have a supercharger optioned 6.8L V10 Marauder with bright red paint, tan leather interior, no console but with the floor shifter poking out of the carpet. Red carpet and floor mats. Quad auto air conditioning, L length addition for the rear seats. Select Trac 4wd. A factory roof rack and towing package capable of hauling 12,000 Lbs. with seperate gear range for towing. Upgraded Brakes, adjustable air ride suspension height and Xenon headlights. Add a winch and brush guard and i'm thrilled. And the Mustang like any colour you want backlighting. With a T roof.

You might want something different and given a choice it would likely mean that no two cars would ever be the same again.

Go Modular....

...and 24" wheels, too?

Aren Jay
04-22-2007, 08:36 PM
Everyone could be driving their own homer car.

Upon reflection maybe some of that is over kill.

I would settle for a NA 4.6L hybrid engine; similar to the new Subaru hybrid parallel system. Adds very little bhp (~15) but ~100 ftlbs of torque and a fair amount of economy. 12000lbs of towing, with a 2nd towing gear range. (similar to a low gear range in a 4x4.) 4wd/rwd selectable power train.

With this you get a Very good torque Marauder, plus added fuel economy. Truck like towing without the truck when in towing range and better brakes and the like. The 1993-96 cadillac fleetwood brougham had the 7000 lbs towing package option, surely with modern technology this could be bumped up to 12000lbs.

A car with double the MPG of a SUV and all the towing or more would appeal to all those who don't want to get stuck in big SUV's or Trucks and yet still want to pull their trailers all around North America. Then when you unhitch it turns into the car the Marauder was supposed to be without killing the fuel economy like a supercharger.

318 bhp and 418 Torque. 24 city and 33 highway MPG (US) Lots of low down torque and real competition for the new batch of small engined crossovers. Plus all the fleet vehicles would love to have 40% more economy.