Aternative Fuels ?

[Dragcity]

As there has been a lot of discussion about:

1) Fuel Economy
2) Fuel Costs
3) Performance
4) Environmental Issues

I would llike to know who knows what about the FEASIBLE alternatives that exist.

I did a little research on:

A) Propane - Present in all oil deposits - byproduct - relatively innexpensive
B) Hydrogen - The most abundant element in the Universe - Clean
C) Alcohol - A very renewable resource - Funny cars run on it, why can't I?
D) Bio-Deisel - Turns waste into energy, at what cost??
E) Nitrogen - Expands when taken from liquid to gas at a rate of 646 : 1 - very abundant and renewable (78% of atmosphere) - Need NO IGNITION, power by thermal expansion (This is the one I like)

Each has its draw-backs, and is simply not practical.

A) Propane - 30% less energy than gasoline - pressurized storage....
B) Hydrogen - Expensive to produce and store - Pressurized storage...
C) Alcohol - Uses food resources - what is the clean fuel we use to heat & distill during production?
D) Bio-Deisel - Ot all engines can be made to run on it - what is the clean fuel we use durig refinement?
E) Nitrogen - Danger of uncontrolled expansion, has a VERY low boiling point NEGATIVE 212* F. Storage is an issue.... Need forged parts, lots of them....


O.K. - What do you guys got? I really am very intersted in this....

www.aa.washington.edu/AERP/CRYOCAR/<WBR>Papers/sae97.pdf

[Bluerauder]

I would llike to know who knows what about the FEASIBLE alternatives that exist.
I think we can safely scratch Kerosene off the alternative fuels list. :rolleyes: Based on a test sample of one, it was proven not to be a suitable racing fuel for the MM. :rofl: Sorry MH !! Couldn't resist. ;)

[Dragcity]

I think we can safely scratch Kerosene off the alternative fuels list. :rolleyes: Based on a test sample of one, it was proven not to be a suitable racing fuel for the MM. :rofl: Sorry MH !! Couldn't resist. ;)


It would work in Deisel applications.....

[KillJoy]

I would REALLY like E-85 & Bio-Diesel being the norm.

Corn is cheap, and easily grow here in the US. Lets get the Gov'bt to stop paying Farmers to kill their crops, and pay to have a re-growable fuel source. Too bad BIG OIL is in the Upper Gov't :(

KillJoy

[Dragcity]

Kill...

We (USA) cannot grow enough corn to satisfy our consumption for auto fuel.

By what means are we able to cleanly and efficiently distill? What will we burn?

With that in mind, do we burn more fuel than we are making???

[magindat]

I think we can safely scratch Kerosene off the alternative fuels list. :rolleyes: Based on a test sample of one, it was proven not to be a suitable racing fuel for the MM. :rofl: Sorry MH !! Couldn't resist. ;)


It would work in Deisel applications.....

Kerosene is Turbine fuel!!!!

[magindat]

Kill...

We (USA) cannot grow enough corn to satisfy our consumption for auto fuel.

By what means are we able to cleanly and efficiently distill? What will we burn?

With that in mind, do we burn more fuel than we are making???

IIRC, I saw where they are burning the stalks and cobs and junk left from harvest to fuel the distiller.

[FordNut]

I would REALLY like E-85 & Bio-Diesel being the norm.

Corn is cheap, and easily grow here in the US. Lets get the Gov'bt to stop paying Farmers to kill their crops, and pay to have a re-growable fuel source. Too bad BIG OIL is in the Upper Gov't :(

KillJoy

Ethanol from corn is not a solution. There is a currently a hold in effect to stop major chemical companies who want to from building more ethanol plants. This is because of corn shortages which are already starting to affect food prices. Corn demand goes up, price goes up. Things that people don't even consider as being affected by corn prices start to get more expensive. Not just corn flakes, but Coke: sweetened with corn syrup, Beef: cattle eat corn, many more examples can be found. So food gets more expensive and those living in poverty (many of whom don't even have cars) end up unable to afford food because we're burning it up in our gas tanks.

New processes are being developed to convert crops such as sawgrass into ethanol, which is a much more viable solution. The crops can be grown virtually anywhere, very hardy crop, multiple harvests annually, etc. But it'll be a couple of more years before the technical details are worked out.

Hydrogen could work, but there are major obstacles to overcome. Production takes a lot of electricity, so to create the electricity without polluting the air we need more nuclear power plants. The distribution network must be developed so it is convenient for people to use it, or they won't. And the current hydrogen cars being pushed by the government are actually electric cars running on a hydrogen fuel cell. The public will be more likely to accept a car with an internal combustion engine and hydrogen tank, especially if it can be switched back & forth between gasoline and hydrogen. Pushing that idea would help to get the distribution network established so that the people who really do want an electric car on a hydrogen fuel cell could actually get the fuel.

[jdando]

I will throw one more energy in the mix...electricity!

http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/springfieldil/archives/images/tesla.jpg

http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/specs.php

I like electric RC cars, electric golf carts and now with constantly evolving and improving battery technology electric cars.

jeremy

[KillJoy]

Kill...

We (USA) cannot grow enough corn to satisfy our consumption for auto fuel.

By what means are we able to cleanly and efficiently distill? What will we burn?

With that in mind, do we burn more fuel than we are making???

We can GROW corn ANYHWERE!!!!!

Use Nuclear or Hydro (Hover Dam ;) ) to provide the power.

And...NOPE! Water is FREE :D

KillJoy

[Dragcity]

How much carbon is released into the atmosphere from burning all the waste?



Still looks like gasoline is it. It's the only ready energy SOURCE we have. Seems all other methods require using some enrgy SOURCE to make the alternative fuel.

Wind and Sun are sources, but solar needs a lot of space and is dependent on climate. Would never work here in Buffalo, NY...

Wind is a good source of energy... Too many opponents who says it's ruining the "Veiw"

Water makes lots of energy, Niagara Falls, too bad there isn't one very 100 miles.... (And why do I pay more for MY electricity than other places??? I am 10 miles away from the Falls.....)

[magindat]

Ethanol from corn is not a solution. There is a currently a hold in effect to stop major chemical companies who want to from building more ethanol plants. This is because of corn shortages which are already starting to affect food prices. Corn demand goes up, price goes up. Things that people don't even consider as being affected by corn prices start to get more expensive. Not just corn flakes, but Coke: sweetened with corn syrup, Beef: cattle eat corn, many more examples can be found. So food gets more expensive and those living in poverty (many of whom don't even have cars) end up unable to afford food because we're burning it up in our gas tanks.

I agree with the notion of making sure we can still feed our folks, however, companies like Coke and Pepsi, whom I see to be as powerful as big oil need to quit poisoning us with High Fructose Corn Syrup. You almost can't buy nuthin without HFCS in it from Coke to BBQ sauce! There are many who believe HFCS is partially responsible for obesity in America due to the fact that it does not trigger insulin production like other sugars, but goes straight to fat without being metabolized. Other sweeteners, like sucralose, are 600 times sweeter than sugar by volume but haven't 'caught on' enough to cause a change in established, proprietary formulas like Coke and Pepsi. Furthermore, since sucralose is derived from sugar, it DOES turn on insulin production for it's metabolism.

Demand companies use sucralose (for example) rather than HFCS, which would help with obesity, thus reducing the 'weight' our fuels need to pull around!!!! Ha ha! That would free up a whole lotta corn to be used as fuel!!!

And before the flames start, Splenda IS sucralose cut with corn starches and other inert ingredients to make it's volume equal to sugar for the consumer's convenience.

[Dragcity]

About electric cars....

What's the word on longevity of the "Fuel Cells"?

How is the recycleability of those batteries?

Please understand I am trying to learn something from everyone about this stuff.

I AM NOT AN ENVIRONMENTALIST.... (PS: I think Al Gore is full of :bs: )

[jdando]

About electric cars....

What's the word on longevity of the "Fuel Cells"?

How is the recycleability of those batteries?



Good questions. Battery technology is changing. The battery that starts our Marauders is a LEAD-Acid battery. Very old technology, very heavy and full of nasty stuff. Acid is corosive, lead is a toxic, causes birth defects, etc.

From the Tesla webpage "Unlike other batteries that came before them, Lithium ion batteries are classified by the federal government as non-hazardous waste and are safe for disposal in the normal municipal waste stream. However, dumping these batteries in the trash would be throwing money away. Even a completely dead battery pack contains valuable, recoverable materials that can be sold back to recycling companies for cash."

Lithium ion batteries are in cell phones, laptop computers and fancy RC cars/trucks. The longevity/life of a battery is about 1200-1500 cycles.

As an aside I run NiMH (nickel-metal hydride) batteries in my RC trucks. These are good batteries they can supply 30 amps continuous current to a eight lb truck. Battery, motor, wiring temps can exceed 180F. Approximate cost is $120 for a good set of batteries. There main drawback is size and weight. The fancy Lithium ion batteries can do all of the above at about 1/2 the size and 1/6th the weight. A good set of lithium ion batteries cost $240:help:.

I would love to get some LI-ion for my RC trucks, but the cost is just to far out of reach:(

Back to cars.....

Electric cars rock. 100% torque at 0rpm talk about low end torque :banana2:

jeremy

[offroadkarter]

I do know that bio diesel is about 87 cents a gallon. And its made with cooking oil, lye and methanol.

Thats my info.

[Marauderjack]

As long as oil reserves remain abundant the BIG oil companies WILL NOT allow alternative fuels to get off the ground!!:shake:

I am currently working with two companies that have onboard H2 generators that are efficient enough to offer 15%-25% fuel mileage improvements for OTR diesel trucks!!!:bows: With onboard computer controls we predict up to 50% fuel mileage improvements on diesels but due to EPA regs CANNOT use these on cars that come under EPA rules!!:argue: :mad:

In addition to fuel savings in diesels we get more power and reduced emissions!!:bows:

We already have hundreds of units working on stationary diesel generators and working in the marine industry as well (Tug Boats).......

Ethanol is a lost cause (can't grow enough corn to count) as is fuel cell technology (burns fossil fuel)......Electric or H2 is the only way to go as oil is depleted!!!:beer:

Marauderjack:cool:

[sailsmen]

Gasoline is it until the tech for the alternative fuels drives the price down.

Many of the heavily subsidized hybrids don't break even until 75K+ miles.

[Krytin]

It takes MORE energy to process corn into fuel than you would actually get from the amount of fuel produced - not viable with current technology.

[Krytin]

as is fuel cell technology (burns fossil fuel)......Electric or H2 is the only way to go as oil is depleted!!!:beer:

Marauderjack:cool:
I thought fuel cells ran off of H2?
H2 is the best fuel but not much supply w/available production technology.

[Marauderjack]

H2 extracted from fossil fuels....still very expensive and oil dependant!!!:argue:

Some "Genius" got to the fork in the road and made a WRONG turn with fuel cells!!!:shake:

Pressurized H2 is impossible to handle on a large scale and VERY DANGEROUS.....KABOOM!!!:eek:

Onboard generators are the only safe way to do it........In the Philipines they have small H2 motorcycles that you simply plug into an electric source in the evening and H2 is generaled from electrolysis of water and stored in a neoprene bladder (slight pressure).:cool: In the AM they crank up and ride around all day repeating the process the next evening....IF they make it back home???:confused:

Iceland has been using H2 for decades now......Do a search and see how much they produce!!:bows:

Marauderjack;)