How Long Do We Have?

[Mike Poore]

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new
constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at
the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the
Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
"A democracy is always temporary in nature;
it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government."
"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover
they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury."
"From that moment on, the majority always vote for the
candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury,
with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose
fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."
"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
beginning of history, has been about 200 years."
"During those 200 years,
those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"
Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law,
St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning
the 2000 Presidential election:
Number of States won by:
Gore: 19
Bush: 29
Square miles of land won by:
Gore: 580,000
Bush: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by:
Gore: 127 million
Bush: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
Gore: 13.2
Bush: 2.1
Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory
Bush won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this
great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living
in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government
welfare..."
Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the
"complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of
democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already
having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.
If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million
criminal invaders called illegals and they vote, then we can say
goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.

[ParkRanger]

Mike:
Too many "always" for this to be correct.
Have courage, be confident and try to do the right things - this will carry all of us through the generations.
But keep an eye on China and India!

PR :burnout:

[Vortex]

A country is a country when it enforces its laws. Until we do something about the 5,000 illegals crossing the border each day we probably dont have an unlimited future. At present, neither Republican or Democrat leadership has said anything about this other than happy talk.

[sailsmen]

All we need is President Eisenhower to bring back "Operation Wet Back".

The US Constitution is written in English.

[burt ragio]

I vote for Charlie Brown. He would piss on any political figure that wouldn't stead fast for our country.
God bless America.
God bless our service men & women.

[Leadfoot281]

Thanks for posting that Mike. I read the first part of that a while back but I forgot where. The stats will be eye opening for some.

The first step in solving any problem is first recognizing it.

This country has been circling the drain for a while now. Hopefully people will take notice before it's too late. Unfortunately some people just wouldn't know how to live without their beloved government. People like my ex-girlfriend.

"Uncle Sam" took 40% of her every paycheck and gave her a tax refund of $3,000 every year. This, she thought, was a really great deal. In fact, she wouldn't marry me until I put it in writing that I'd give her a check every year that we're married for $3,000! Naturally I asked her why. She said; "I depend on that money! I can't live without it."

That's a government that owns people. That's also the exact opposite of how it should be.

[sailsmen]

Every community that has had a large influx of illegal immigrants has subsequently had a lower standard of living by every measure. The illegal immigrants bring the very reason they left their own country with them. Your community becomes a mirror image of their community in their native country.

Each illegal immigrant represents a negative number economically. They take more then they give.

Up to 20% of the population of Mexico is in this country illegally.

Due to the hurricanes we have a large population of illegal immigrants and the problems of higher crime and taxing hospital emergency rooms has begun.

I am in a new subdivision still being built. It is interesting to see which contractors are using illegal immigrants and which are not.

[KillJoy]

Very interesting Thread Mike.

I have so many thoughts, if I voice them, this thread WILL get Closed. YOU know how the "Admins" are these days :rolleyes:

;)

KillJoy

PS - But yes, times are changing. Our Democracy ended....not sure. If it does....India is a nice place, at least they speak English ;)

[dwasson]

... and I no longer have faith in this nation's will to defend itself.

[KillJoy]

Every community that has had a large influx of illegal immigrants has subsequently had a lower standard of living by every measure. The illegal immigrants bring the very reason they left their own country with them. Your community becomes a mirror image of their community in their native country.

Each illegal immigrant represents a negative number economically. They take more then they give.

Up to 20% of the population of Mexico is in this country illegally.

Due to the hurricanes we have a large population of illegal immigrants and the problems of higher crime and taxing hospital emergency rooms has begun.

I am in a new subdivision still being built. It is interesting to see which contractors are using illegal immigrants and which are not.

I agree w/ most of your posts. However, I disagree with THIS post.

My Father is a Construction Superentendant for a large National construction company. He is a Union Member, which allows them to Bid on Union Jobs which he works. This also means he get Labor from the Union Hall.


He has gotten to the point of REQUESTING Mexicans! They do twice the work, are more reliable, and take price in their work. Granted, they are paid a HELL OF A LOT OF CASH, but they EARN IT
My Father has commented on how some of the other workers (mostly White) dicked off and wasted away the day. But....the immigrants (legallity unknown) worked their asses off!</P>
Locally, they do the jobs that no one else WANTS to. The HARD manual labor, the nasty asses fast food positions and the ones folks look down upon. Also, I live in a community like yours. Who do I see early in the morning, and late into the night working? The Mexicans. Not the White guys working their M-F 7-3's, but these guys who are just trying to make the American Dream theirs. If YOU were in their shoes...would YOU not want better???? I would.

Where would any of us be if the Irish, Welsh, German, English, Swedish, Italian "TRASH" had not come to this GREAT COUNTRY in it's beginning?

I am not saying I like the current immigration influx, but it IS here, and WILL continue.

KillJoy

</RANT>

[Budman]

I agree w/ most of your posts. However, I disagree with THIS post.

My Father is a Construction Superentendant for a large National construction company. He is a Union Member, which allows them to Bid on Union Jobs which he works. This also means he get Labor from the Union Hall.


He has gotten to the point of REQUESTING Mexicans! They do twice the work, are more reliable, and take price in their work. Granted, they are paid a HELL OF A LOT OF CASH, but they EARN IT
My Father has commented on how some of the other workers (mostly White) dicked off and wasted away the day. But....the immigrants (legallity unknown) worked their asses off!

Locally, they do the jobs that no one else WANTS to. The HARD manual labor, the nasty asses fast food positions and the ones folks look down upon. Also, I live in a community like yours. Who do I see early in the morning, and late into the night working? The Mexicans. Not the White guys working their M-F 7-3's, but these guys who are just trying to make the American Dream theirs. If YOU were in their shoes...would YOU not want better???? I would.

Where would any of us be if the Irish, Welsh, German, English, Swedish, Italian "TRASH" had not come to this GREAT COUNTRY in it's beginning?

I am not saying I like the current immigration influx, but it IS here, and WILL continue.

KillJoy

</RANT>
I have to agree here with Killjoy.
What do you get when you cross a Mexican and an Octo****?
I don't know either,but they sure can pick some tomatoes!:D
They do the work most lazy white boys dont want to do.Being illegal is not good,but it gets the job done.

[dwasson]

I am probably one of the most pro-immigration people that you will ever meet. I believe that most immigrants were Americans before they left home. But there is a difference between being pro-immigration and being pro-illegal immigration. We cannot survive as a nation when a large fraction of the population has no legal ties to the country as a whole.

Japan does not allow much immigration and that has encouraged the development of robotics and automation to replace cheap labor. In Georgia the INS raided a poultry processing plant, causing most of their $7 per hour employees to go into hiding. They couldn't replace the workers until they offered $9. Illegals don't do work that Americans won't do. They just do it for less.Why should employers be allowed to I would support jailing employers who knowingly hire illegals.

[KillJoy]

I am probably one of the most pro-immigration people that you will ever meet. I believe that most immigrants were Americans before they left home. But there is a difference between being pro-immigration and being pro-illegal immigration. We cannot survive as a nation when a large fraction of the population has no legal ties to the country as a whole.


I think Australia has VERY restrictive immigration restrictions.....

KillJoy

[sailsmen]

This country does not require an illegal labor force to prosper. As we found out with slavery it is wrong and in the end you pay dearly.

Do a search on "Operation Wet Back", it is an eye opener.

Most of the houses in our subdividsion are being built with legal labor. There are a few that are not.

[KillJoy]

This country does not require an illegal labor force to prosper. As we found out with slavery it is wrong and in the end you pay dearly.

Do a search on "Operation Wet Back", it is an eye opener.

Most of the houses in our subdividsion are being built with legal labor. There are a few that are not.


Operation Wetback (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback)

KillJoy

[Bluerauder]

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.
I estimated somewhere between abundance and complacency or slightly more optimistic than Olson's take. Don't think we are at the apathy stage yet ... but who gives a Rat's Azz. ;)

There are probably some lessons that also can be learned from the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire.

I'd say less than 43 years unless things changed considerably. :(

[Joe Walsh]

I am probably one of the most pro-immigration people that you will ever meet. I believe that most immigrants were Americans before they left home. But there is a difference between being pro-immigration and being pro-illegal immigration. We cannot survive as a nation when a large fraction of the population has no legal ties to the country as a whole.

Japan does not allow much immigration and that has encouraged the development of robotics and automation to replace cheap labor. In Georgia the INS raided a poultry processing plant, causing most of their $7 per hour employees to go into hiding. They couldn't replace the workers until they offered $9. Illegals don't do work that Americans won't do. They just do it for less.Why should employers be allowed to I would support jailing employers who knowingly hire illegals.

They just nailed a Baltimore restaurant owner to the wall to make an example of employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens.
They recieved significant jail time and some huge fines.

By the way, here is a question for all our bumbling, spineless elected officials:

WHAT PART OF "ILLEGAL" in ILLEGAL ALIEN DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND????

[Kennyrauder]

Andy Rooney from CBS said the same thing ...when people don't have to work .. & when they do , not even in English we are screwed...even here in Canada. We keep giving in to any & all Minorities. God Help us all in Canada &the good old USA. God Bless All who really care. Kennyrauder.

[Vortex]

Just because you support effective immigration controls and enforcement of the law along the border does not make you a racist. I dont care if the illegals are Mexicans, Africans or Irish, illegal is illegal. Yes, illegals work hard, this is true. When illegals leave Mexico for instance, they take the pressure off the Mexican government to fix the corruption that prevents the development of a Mexican middle class, thats why the Mexican government sounds off against a fence, ect... Illegals supress the prevailing wage. Why should a contractor hire union labor when he can hire illegals for half the price? Fast food places wouldnt be able to pay minimum wages if there were no illegals. Contrary to popular belief, most illegals do not pay taxes other than sales tax, and that is one reason our overcrowded public schools arent what they used to be. I am a realist, we need farm laborers, and should have a "bracero" program like we had before. Also, deporting 12 million illegals is damn near impossible. But, if you listen to the biggest objection now by some, it is against the fence. Well, the fence will work, that is why there is so much vocal criticism of it. Another thing that needs to be changed is the born in the US the kid is a US citizen rule. That law only started in the 1930's and is total baloney. Lastly, we need to get rid of the myriad of differing identity documents in the US. Do you know how many different forms there are for birth certificates we have? Well, how many separate counties/parrishes do we have? Thats just a start. There need to be federal issuance for all birth, death, marriage and driver's licences. Hey, somebody touched a nerve here, sorry.

[Marauderjack]

Take a look at this and see what our grandchildren will have to look forward to if we don't stop the illegal influx RIGHT NOW!!!!:eek: :shake:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=40949267271280 68265&q=roy+beck&h

[prchrman]

Immigration and such is not the problem...just a sympton of the root cause...which is a little deeper...the heart of man...

Proverbs 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

2 Timothy 3
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

I usually reframe from pontification on here because it is a car site...but...faith came into play in the first post...so the door was opened...Mexicans are not the issue...God loves them as much as anyone...all nationalities are loved equally by God...but as a nation we have to enforce our laws or suffer the consequences...I pray for the USA everyday but the errosion of morals and ethics in the country has put us on a fast track for destruction...we have lost our way because we have no compass to guide us...it is not to late and I have hope that things can change but the change happens within the heart of man...willie

[juno]

That is interesting info about the republic. It's funny, I have alway's wondered how long it could last.

Something people don't realize about the 19th and 20th century immigration of Europeans is that we did not have the social decay and the social programs in place that we do now. And they were came in and were registered. They were not as much a drain on society. Today, with all the programs we have in place, they are draining us dearly.
I am all for immigration as we need the influx of new people to keep building the nation, physically and psycologically. But illegal is illegal. Get the F out.

[Dr Caleb]

I think what everyone here is describing is 'Cheap Labour Conservativism'. Recently McDonalds and even the carpenters union went recruiting in Mexico for cheap temporary labour to fill positions in Edmonton and area, because of the huge influx of people here. There are lots of good jobs to be had, so no one wants to do the menial jobs; "Would you like fries with that?". With all the people, there is also a major glut of people who want to pound nails and build the houses everyone will live in. Show up on any jobsite with a tool belt, show you know which end of a hammer is which and you can have 12 hours a day, 7 days a week worth of work.

Personally, I don't have a problem with bringing in temps from other countries to do the jobs that need to get done, if there aren't enough warm bodies to fill the spaces locally. What does concern me is the fact that locals can't live on the wages offered, if there were a slowdown in the economy.

This will probabally get me in trouble because it borders between social mores and politics, but, here is a definition of 'Cheap Labour Conservative': (I didn't write it, BTW...)

<blockquote>
Cheap-labour conservatives don’t like social spending or our “safety net.” Why. Because when you’re unemployed and desperate, corporations can pay you whatever they feel like – which is inevitably next to nothing. You see, they want you over a barrel and in a position to “work cheap or starve.”

Cheap-labour conservatives don’t like the minimum wage, or other improvements in wages and working conditions. Why? These reforms undo all of their efforts to keep you over a barrel.

Cheap-labour conservatives like “free trade,” NAFTA, GATT, etc. Why? Because there is a huge supply of desperately poor people in the third world, who are “over a barrel,” and will work cheap.

Cheap-labour conservatives oppose a woman’s right to choose. Why? Unwanted children are an economic burden that put poor women “over a barrel,” forcing them to work cheap.

Cheap-labour conservatives don’t like unions. Why? Because when labor “sticks together,” wages go up. That’s why workers unionize. Seems workers don’t like being “over a barrel.”

Cheap-labour conservatives constantly bray about “morality,” “virtue,” “respect for authority,” “hard work” and other “values.” Why? So they can blame your being “over a barrel” on your own “immorality,” lack of “values” and “poor choices.”

Cheap-labour conservatives encourage racism, misogyny, homophobia and other forms of bigotry. Why? Bigotry among wage earners distracts them, and keeps them from recognizing their common interests as wage earners.
</blockquote>

[RCSignals]

I agree w/ most of your posts. However, I disagree with THIS post.

My Father is a Construction Superentendant for a large National construction company. He is a Union Member, which allows them to Bid on Union Jobs which he works. This also means he get Labor from the Union Hall.


He has gotten to the point of REQUESTING Mexicans! They do twice the work, are more reliable, and take price in their work. Granted, they are paid a HELL OF A LOT OF CASH, but they EARN IT
My Father has commented on how some of the other workers (mostly White) dicked off and wasted away the day. But....the immigrants (legallity unknown) worked their asses off!

Locally, they do the jobs that no one else WANTS to. The HARD manual labor, the nasty asses fast food positions and the ones folks look down upon. Also, I live in a community like yours. Who do I see early in the morning, and late into the night working? The Mexicans. Not the White guys working their M-F 7-3's, but these guys who are just trying to make the American Dream theirs. If YOU were in their shoes...would YOU not want better???? I would.

Where would any of us be if the Irish, Welsh, German, English, Swedish, Italian "TRASH" had not come to this GREAT COUNTRY in it's beginning?

I am not saying I like the current immigration influx, but it IS here, and WILL continue.

KillJoy



- If it's a UNION job, they should certainly be hiring 'legal' immigrants.

-
Where would any of us be if the Irish, Welsh, German, English, Swedish, Italian "TRASH" had not come to this GREAT COUNTRY in it's beginning?

that argument is flawed, as most of that "TRASH" could only come to the US legally, and were strictly processed on arrival

[RCSignals]

I think what everyone here is describing is 'Cheap Labour Conservativism'. Recently McDonalds and even the carpenters union went recruiting in Mexico for cheap temporary labour to fill positions in Edmonton and area, because of the huge influx of people here. There are lots of good jobs to be had, so no one wants to do the menial jobs; "Would you like fries with that?". With all the people, there is also a major glut of people who want to pound nails and build the houses everyone will live in. Show up on any jobsite with a tool belt, show you know which end of a hammer is which and you can have 12 hours a day, 7 days a week worth of work.

Personally, I don't have a problem with bringing in temps from other countries to do the jobs that need to get done, if there aren't enough warm bodies to fill the spaces locally. What does concern me is the fact that locals can't live on the wages offered, if there were a slowdown in the economy.



I'll deal with this part because the rest is as bad as the 'cheap labour conservatives' it denigrates. Maybe the writer should be encouraging locals to take up the jobs in question.

What you are describing in the first part, bringing in 'temporary' workers, is a controlled immigration system (assuming the government is involved)

It really isn't a new concept, for a country to allow immigration of individuals based upon lack of specific workers and professionals within the local population.

[Dr Caleb]

I'll deal with this part because the rest is as bad as the 'cheap labour conservatives' it denigrates. Maybe the writer should be encouraging locals to take up the jobs in question.


Locals can't afford to take these McJobs and afford to live. Vacancy is below 1%, and working 40 hour weeks at a McJob wouldn't pay the rent, in excess of $1300 for a two bedroom apartment (nothing included too). Why would I encourage locals to take jobs that don't pay the bills? Perhaps the writer should be a reader for a change.

And, thank you for demonstrating the term 'cheap labour conservative'.

[RCSignals]

Locals can't afford to take these McJobs and afford to live. Vacancy is below 1%, and working 40 hour weeks at a McJob wouldn't pay the rent, in excess of $1300 for a two bedroom apartment (nothing included too). Why would I encourage locals to take jobs that don't pay the bills? Perhaps the writer should be a reader for a change.

And, thank you for demonstrating the term 'cheap labour conservative'.

I didn't demonstrate any such thing.

The 'cheap labour conservative' description, which I understand you did not write, isn't exactly a new manifesto.
It's a rather typical polar rant.
When ever has the 'McJob' paid a "living" wage?

The solution of course is a strict Social system, where everyone wears a State approved uniform, travels on State approved transportation, lives in State approved dormitories, and eats State approved food. There will be no disparities.

[ParkRanger]

It's not an illegal immigration problem.
It's an illegal employer problem.
And you will never see the gov't prosecute employers for hiring illegals! It's bad for business.
And shame on us for ignoring the conditions that these people endure in work and their paranoid living - just so we can have a 99 cent burger and cheap vegetables.
Either close the border and fine those employers - or - give the illegals citizenship and pay $2.00 for a friggin tomato! Just do something!!

PR :burnout:

[RCSignals]

It's not an illegal immigration problem.
It's an illegal employer problem.
And you will never see the gov't prosecute employers for hiring illegals! It's bad for business.
And shame on us for ignoring the conditions that these people endure in work and their paranoid living - just so we can have a 99 cent burger and cheap vegetables.
Either close the border and fine those employers - or - give the illegals citizenship and pay $2.00 for a friggin tomato! Just do something!!

PR :burnout:


Of course there is a problem with employers/businesses that purposely hire illegal immigrants, but to completely dismiss that there is an illegal immigrant problem is wrong.

[GreekGod]

Because Ameicans are being dumbed-down with "Democracy" propaganda, our great hope is to return to our Constitutional Republic ideals (rule of law):Constitutional republic



From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A constitutional republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic) is a state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State) where the head of state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_of_state) and other officials are elected (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election) as representatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation_%28politics%29) of the people and must govern according to existing constitutional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution)law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_law) that limits the government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government)'s power over citizens. In a constitutional republic, executive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_%28government%29), legislative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislature), and judicial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary) powers are separated into distinct branches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers) and the will of the majority of the population is tempered by protections for minority rights so that no individual or group has absolute power. The fact that a constitution exists that limits the government's power, makes the state constitutional. That the head(s) of state and other officials are chosen by election, rather than inheriting their positions, and that their decisions are subject to judicial review (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_review) makes a state republican.

Unlike a pure democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy), in a constitutional republic, citizens are not governed by the majority of the people but by the rule of law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law).<SUP class=reference id=_ref-0>[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic#_note-0)</SUP> Constitutional Republics are a deliberate attempt to diminish the threat of mobocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobocracy) thereby protecting minority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority) groups from the tyranny of the majority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority) by placing checks on the power of the majority of the population.<SUP class=reference id=_ref-1>[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic#_note-1)</SUP> The power of the majority of the people is checked by limiting that power to electing representatives who govern within limits of overarching constitutional law rather than the popular vote having legislative power itself. John Adams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams) defined a constitutional republic as "a government of laws, and not of men."<SUP class=reference id=_ref-2>[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic#_note-2)</SUP> Also, the power of government officials is checked by allowing no single individual to hold executive, legislative and judicial powers. Instead these powers are separated into distinct branches that serve as a check and balance on each other. A constitutional republic is designed so that "no person or group [can] rise to absolute power."<SUP class=reference id=_ref-3>[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic#_note-3)</SUP>
The notion of constitutional republic originates with Aristotle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle)'s Politics and his notion of the polity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polity). He Contrasts the polity or republican government with democracy and oligarchy in book 3, chapter 6 of the Politics.


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[KillJoy]

Wow....if this thread keeps going in this direction...I can post up my thoughts from earlier :D

KillJoy

[dwasson]

Of course there is a problem with employers/businesses that purposely hire illegal immigrants, but to completely dismiss that there is an illegal immigrant problem is wrong.

If they couldn't work most of them wouldn't be here. But there are other costs of illegal immigration from Mexico.

Mexico has had a dysfunctional government for over 100 years. The rich control the government and they have no interest in letting go. Letting the most ambitious of the lower classes leave for the US keeps the corrupt power structure in force. If these people couldn't work in the US and send money home, Mexico would be ripe (more ripe?) for a revolution.

The immigration situation as it is now means that the US doesn't select it's immigrants for the best interest of the US. If we had a sensible system we would be choosing out immigrants from a pool of people with valuable skills that would strengthen our economy. The pool of immigrants we get now frequently contributes to driving down wages and removing the incentive to develop automation to replace menial labor.

As it stands now this isn't a partisan political problem. Neither party is acting in the public interest. They claim that there are industries that can't find workers and need to import labor. I do not believe that there is any job that can't be filled if you offer enough money. If you pay me enough, I'll pick lettuce. Or, I'll develop a machine to do it if there is money in it. And, that machine would free up labor for another job that is more difficult to automate. This would raise US productivity and real income.

Cheap labor destroys innovation.

[ParkRanger]

Of course there is a problem with employers/businesses that purposely hire illegal immigrants, but to completely dismiss that there is an illegal immigrant problem is wrong.

Do you think illegals would still come if they knew they could never get work?

[KillJoy]

The immigration situation as it is now means that the US doesn't select it's immigrants for the best interest of the US. If we had a sensible system we would be choosing out immigrants from a pool of people with valuable skills that would strengthen our economy.

Once again....look at Australia's immigration laws....

KillJoy

[dwasson]

Once again....look at Australia's immigration laws....

KillJoy

Don't keep us in suspense ... what do you see there?

[KillJoy]

Don't keep us in suspense ... what do you see there?


http://www.immi.gov.au/migrants/index.htm

Basically, you have to be productive. You cannot be a leach on society. You need to have a skill that is in demand...not a Porfessional Mouch...

AU > US :(

KillJoy

[GreekGod]

New Zeeland will only allow workers that are in demand and can't be found with nationals.

[KillJoy]

New Zeeland will only allow workers that are in demand and can't be found with nationals.


Nice....

NZ is a BEAUTIFUL Country. I wish my skills were in demans there. Or AU for that matter......

....HEARTBEAT....:cool:

KillJoy

[dwasson]

http://www.immi.gov.au/migrants/index.htm

Basically, you have to be productive. You cannot be a leach on society. You need to have a skill that is in demand...not a Porfessional Mouch...

AU > US :(

KillJoy

That is the official statement. But I have a buddy who immigrated (legally) from Austrailia. He says that the problem with Muslims is bad enough that most people he knows would trade for our wetbacks.

[KillJoy]

That is the official statement. But I have a buddy who immigrated (legally) from Austrailia. He says that the problem with Muslims is bad enough that most people he knows would trade for our wetbacks.


Really.....

Can you elaborate?

PM if you prefer.....

I have a Bud in AU that I Chat w/ often....he never mentioned such a thing....

If that IS the case though..... I would be prefer the Mexicans too ;)

KillJoy

PS - Mmmmmm.......Margaritas :D

[KillJoy]

On a side note.....do we have ANY immigrants here (MX, or where ever)? If we do, it would be nice to get THEIR input.....

KillJoy

[MERCMAN]

Please refrain from the use of derogatory terms. That will get this thread kicked to the curb faster than a plastic jug on recycle day.

[KillJoy]

Please refrain from the use of derogatory terms. That will get this thread kicked to the curb faster than a plastic jug on recycle day.


Not a problem.

However, for the RECORD, "I" do not use the term in a negative frame of reference.

KillJoy

BTW.....it HAS been used elsewhere on THIS site w/o censorship ;)

[KillJoy]

Please refrain from the use of derogatory terms. That will get this thread kicked to the curb faster than a plastic jug on recycle day.


BTW...MINE has been edited....why not yours?????

Hater....

KillJoy

;)

[KillJoy]

offending post edited


My butt......


;)

It's all good...... wanker :D

KillJoy

[Glenn]

Agreed with the original post on the thread, but the one factor not considered is the factor of WAR. War will shift the balance back toward a working democracy. War will be a factor in the next 20 years. War with who - the war will be with CHINA. You would be surprised how our military is planning for this event. Who do you want in power when this hits?

Glenn

[RCSignals]

Do you think illegals would still come if they knew they could never get work?

I think they come now not knowing if they will get work or not, but they do know that once they get here they will be taken care of.
Some come because they have criminal work already arranged.

[RCSignals]

http://www.immi.gov.au/migrants/index.htm

Basically, you have to be productive. You cannot be a leach on society. You need to have a skill that is in demand...not a Porfessional Mouch...

AU > US :(

KillJoy

Actually that's quite similar to the Immigration laws of the US.

Come here 'legally' and you have to be of certain profession, or hired to a job that the employer can document they have searched and could not find qualified US citizens for. You are told that you must never become a 'burden' on US society, and if you do you will be deported. It is stressed that the language of the country is English, and you are expected to learn it.

Problem is the US has this huge elephant of unwritten Immigration law that applies to only a certain segment of people incorrectly labeled as "Immigrants" Some call them "undocumented Immigrants" or other form of nicety.
This "Immigrant" is catered to in every way. Provided service in their native language, allowed to collect Social Service benefits including food, housing, clothing, medical care, etc. Allowed a pass on paying taxes, etc etc.

The law actual simply needs to be enforced, and the scofflaws ejected.

[sailsmen]

In 1997 a shipyard client of mine participated in the DOL waivers for welder/scrapper which were in short supply due to an oil boom.

He hired over 100 and provided lodging and transportation. They made a very good wage.

He was raided by INS and over 1/2 were illegals. He had all the papers in order and INS did not fine him. He asked how can we tell that the papers were fake and the INS told him you cannot and sometimes they cannot either.

In one hospital in Houston in 2005 10K births to illegal. I have heard in NO that in 2006 1/2 births were to illegals.

[dwasson]

Some call them "undocumented Immigrants" or other form of nicety.


"Undocumented worker" makes you think that they just left their ID in their other pants. Once "Undocumented" comes into general use it too will carry a negative conotation. Then the chattering classes will come up with a new phrase, meant to obfuscate and confuse the issue. I think we should all use "Accidental Border Crosser".

[MERCMAN]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070404/us_nm/visas_tech_dc

[Bluerauder]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070404/us_nm/visas_tech_dc

Part of that article says ... ""Clearly there is a need for science and engineering talent in this country that is not being met by home-grown talent," said William Morin, director of government affairs for Applied Materials Inc., the world's biggest supplier of equipment for making microchips."

Sometimes our screwy laws are bassackwards and are working against the need for this talent. Take Virginia for example. The legislature is working now to correct an issue related to In-State Tuition benefits. It seems that in Virginia, illegal immigratants ARE ENTITLED TO IN-STATE TUITION RATES at public colleges and universities. Now how the H3LL did this happen?? ENTITLED !!! That's about a $10,000-$12,000 average benefit per student. More if you consider UVa or William and Mary College.

If that is not bad enough, the law specifically excludes US servicemembers and their families from receiving In-State tuition if they are legal tax paying residents of another state; but are domiciled in Virginia (at one of the major military bases or Pentagon). Does anyone see anything wrong with this??

To their credit, my representatives are working to get this fixed. But, how did it get so Out-of-Whack in the first place. :bs:

[MERCMAN]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070405/ap_on_re_us/metro_population

[Dr Caleb]

"During those 200 years,
those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance; <b>
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage" </b>

Time to bring out the big guns. As Mike's quote points out here, the overwhelming trend it toward apathy. Immigration is the distraction. Seriously.

http://www.spp.gov/

Note, the .gov address. Go through the site. Note how many times they use 'enhance prosperity' or some other semantically null term. How about <i>"Work through the Partnership for Prosperity and the Canada-Mexico Partnership to strengthen our cooperation in the development of human capital in North America, including by expanding partnerships in higher education, science, and technology."</i>

I for one, am not going to grab my ankles and pretend to enjoy it, while my country spins further down the drain.

So, by now to some, I should don my tinfoil hat. I'm used to being dismissed as such. Would a link to CNN's "Money Line" discussing this convince you it's real? How about the Hansard from Question Period in Parlament? ('Hansard' = The official written record of everything said in Parlament)

Unless we stand up to this kind of crap, like 'free trade' agreements, and make our governments accountable for what they do in our names, both our countries will get flushed really soon now.

The media harps on about stuff that is totally irrelavant. I know you all think that illegal immigration is a major concern, but it isn't our biggest problem right now. I mean, seriously, Anna Nicole is dead and buried. We should hear no more about it, but flipping through the news, you'd think it was the biggest story since 9/11. I even saw a story the other day about that girl who dissappeard in Aruba. Seriously? It's a tragedy no doubt, but a 2 year old one at that. How about the bigger tragedies that are yet to come?

Canadian local and national news moved on weeks ago, and that girl going missing was only a short footnote two years ago. But I still do flip through channels and pick up local and national US news, and it really does puzzle me as to how they are allowed to get away with that kind of BS.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/4/3/9151/68391

I don't mean to get political here, I mean to get patriotic. Tough to seperate the two sometimes.

[chicago_cop]

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new
constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at
the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the
Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
"A democracy is always temporary in nature;
it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government."
"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover
they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury."
"From that moment on, the majority always vote for the
candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury,
with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose
fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."
"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
beginning of history, has been about 200 years."
"During those 200 years,
those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"
Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law,
St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning
the 2000 Presidential election:
Number of States won by:
Gore: 19
Bush: 29
Square miles of land won by:
Gore: 580,000
Bush: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by:
Gore: 127 million
Bush: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
Gore: 13.2
Bush: 2.1
Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory
Bush won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this
great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living
in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government
welfare..."
Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the
"complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of
democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already
having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.
If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million
criminal invaders called illegals and they vote, then we can say
goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.

This goes back to the Bible. Man can never effectivley govern its self. The first King in the bible was Saul. God told the prophet that the Jews were making a huge mistake by wanting a King, and said what would happen. The plight of Man. It also says in the Bible that one day there will be a Theocracy
where the earth will be under the Kingship of Christ himself. Revelation 21: verses 1-27. Also read Joh 1:12 and the rest of John. Believe it or not what is happening today in the World has been fortold. Not in generalities but naming specific regions of the world. Israel is the baromiter of how long we have. Time is Short. Jesus is the Saviour, and No Other. Happy Easter to All

[RCSignals]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070405/ap_on_re_us/metro_population

Seems to be another smoke and mirrors article, not addressing the the difference between legitimate Immigrants and "Accidental Border Crossers"

It also refers to 'domestic migrants' . Usually this is another term for "Accidental Border Crossers"

[sailsmen]

article in todays paper.

They're violent, merciless, and moving into south Louisiana. We're talking about Latin gangs. Federal officials say, cities like Los Angeles and Houston are still their base, but increasingly, they're living, working and committing crimes right here in Acadiana. KATC's Diana Raphael investigates.
They're called marras, clickas or gangs. Something we hear little about in our area. However, Latin gang members from California and Texas are making their way to south Louisiana.

Members of a notorious gang called the MS-13 have been picked up in St. Bernard parish outside of New Orleans. In Lake Charles more transplanted gang members have been arrested. Closer to home, in Iberia parish an attempted murder suspect's line-up pictures show tattoos affiliated with an LA gang "Cuatro Flats" which refers to a neighborhood in east Los Angeles.

So what are these guys doing here?

"We've begun to see an influx of Latin American workers, construction workers, debris removal workers. Within those tens of thousands of workers, we've begun to identify members of violent Latin street gangs." Agent Bernazani says the need to rebuild brings in skilled workers by day, but at night it's a different story. "Drug peddling and prostitution."

The FBI says most Latin gang members they find are alone-and not part of an organized group of criminals. While they do stress there's little to worry about, one should always be aware.

"Citizens should be vigilant and if they see anything out of the ordinary report it to authorities."



Agent Bernazani says the I-10 corridor between Houston and New Orleans is a major pipeline for drug trafficking. The drugs move east and the money moves west. He also said that with a lot of the criminals displaced by the hurricanes, now is a prime time for Latin gangs to try to establish their own turf in south Louisiana.

[RCSignals]

The FBI says most Latin gang members they find are alone-and not part of an organized group of criminals. While they do stress there's little to worry about, one should always be aware

Then how can they be considered a 'gang'

[dwasson]

This goes back to the Bible. Man can never effectivley govern its self. The first King in the bible was Saul. God told the prophet that the Jews were making a huge mistake by wanting a King, and said what would happen. The plight of Man. It also says in the Bible that one day there will be a Theocracy
where the earth will be under the Kingship of Christ himself. Revelation 21: verses 1-27. Also read Joh 1:12 and the rest of John. Believe it or not what is happening today in the World has been fortold. Not in generalities but naming specific regions of the world. Israel is the baromiter of how long we have. Time is Short. Jesus is the Saviour, and No Other. Happy Easter to All

Is dangerous to suggest that man that can't govern themselves. That's the same arguement against democracy that al-Queda uses.

[sailsmen]

They are "scouts" sent by the gangs to see if they can establish a base.

Initially LEO said that our local criminal were not violent enough to deal w/ these gangs. They were very wrong.

Our criminals had for the most part worked out the territories.

Katrina eliminated the boundries. They are now viciously fighting to establish the new territories.

The Latin "Scouts" think they can get away w/ selling to the illegals. They are begining to find out they cannot.

Some of the rural areas are starting to have problems and don't have the infrastructure to respond.

Unlike some of the major cities these gangs hail from the citizens are well armed.

[murphypeople]

I am not familiar enough with the user bylines to remeber who all the LEOs are on the forum. I am wondering if any of you are willing and able to share your insights? I understand if this would not be a purdent thing for you to do.
I have a family memeber that is a Federal District Atty, Prosecutor, on the east coast. There are all kinds of gangs that he "faces" in the court room: Russian, Jamacian, other. These gang members are the worst of human kind. The reason a devil's hell was made.

The best thing any of us can do is: buy a gun, get training, get a CC permit (if you don't live in VT or AK) and encourage others to do the same.

T:flamer: