New Battery and Alternator - Battery Light Still On [Archive]

blackf0rk

05-15-2007, 08:37 AM

I'll preface my current situation: Battery light came on last week Thursday. Checked out the battery and alternator and replaced them both yesterday. I'm getting 14+V at the battery; before the replacement is was 11-12v. Now though, same as before, the battery light comes on about 20-30 seconds after I turn on the car. I went to AutoZone and had them scan my codes and there were none. My current research on this has been this...

I read through this thread, which didn't lead me to much:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9834&highlight=Battery+Light

I then read through this thread:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24756&highlight=Battery+Light

According to this last thread, if I unplug the alternator 3-prong plug, rev the engine at 4,500RPM for 3 seconds...my battery light will go off. Is this correct?

I'm not sure what to do as there are no codes and everything's new... :depress:

Local Boy

05-15-2007, 09:27 AM

Regulator? I think anything over 14V is high.

FordNut

05-15-2007, 09:30 AM

First, where did you get the replacement alternator? Check to see that the regulator is the same as the one on the old alternator. I have experienced battery light and charging issues when installing a Cobra alternator, which looks the same but is not functionally the same.

Second, check the wiring extensions for the alternator. I have heard of some Trilogy owners having charging issues due to bad connections at the extension harness.

blackf0rk

05-15-2007, 09:36 AM

First, where did you get the replacement alternator? Check to see that the regulator is the same as the one on the old alternator.

1. You don't even want to know what it took to get this alternator.
2. How do I check to see if they're the same or different
3. If I'm getting consistent 14V would it really be the regulator?

FordNut

05-15-2007, 09:41 AM

1. You don't even want to know what it took to get this alternator.
2. How do I check to see if they're the same or different
3. If I'm getting consistent 14V would it really be the regulator?

I put a Cobra alternator on my MM once and it went to 15v immediately on startup and stayed there. Just a few minutes/seconds later the battery light would come on.

I have heard, but can't confirm, that the wiring connector for the regulator is a different color.

My guess is that the old alternator may be ok, but the wiring connections for the Trilogy extension harness have corroded or broken. Then replacing the alternator with one which is not compatible with the PCM-controlled regulator introduced a second problem.

blackf0rk

05-15-2007, 09:49 AM

Well here's the story.

I order the alternator from AutoZone, but they had to order it. By the third day of waiting and still not even a tracking number, I cancled and went to AdvancedAuto. They didn't have it either, but could order it and have it in by the afternoon. I said ok. When it came in, and I compared them, they were completely different. I took the new (and wrong) alternator back with my old one and showed them it. The guy looked at some numbers on the alternator and they had the one I needed in stock. He said he found it off a Mountaineer.

It's not putting out 15V. When I say 14+, I mean 14.1 to 14.5 at peak. But nothing over that.

SamF

05-15-2007, 09:53 AM

All I can say is I went thru 2 alternators (represented to be replacement equals) one physically would not fit, I didnt even take it from the store, the other looked exactly the same as mine but exhibited the same symptoms you have, throwing just over 15V and triggering the BAT light after about 15 seconds. I went to Ford for a new Alt and its running fine now...

FordNut

05-15-2007, 10:08 AM

FYI, I recently bought one of the ebay 200A alternators and it's working just fine. Cost $241 including shipping. Already has the non-clutched pulley so it should be a quick & easy bolt-on for a Trilogy.

JMan

05-16-2007, 02:26 AM

Quit playing!

http://www.motorcraft.com/wheretobuy.do

J

blackf0rk

05-16-2007, 06:38 AM

...exhibited the same symptoms you have, throwing just over 15V and triggering the BAT light after about 15 seconds...

Ok, but mine isn't putting out 15V...

SamF

05-16-2007, 07:08 AM

Ok, but mine isn't putting out 15V...

I dont know enough about it one way or another,my new one is putting out just under 15v. All I know it was a nightmare getting the right ALT and if I had to do it again I would go directly to Ford. NAPA and the other places I called didnt even have a direct cross reference replacement to the FoMoCo part number. It was "oh yea...I can order it, Mercury 97 and up are all the same" which is not the case.

I had mine in and out about 5 times (attempted to rebuild it once at a local shop, that effort failed miserably)

Call Ford ;)

blackf0rk

05-16-2007, 10:44 AM

I'm getting a cool and consistent 14.5v on the battery...

magindat

05-16-2007, 11:13 AM

Quit playing!

http://www.motorcraft.com/wheretobuy.do

J

Go to Jake's link. Click product look up on top, then buyer's guide on the right. Type in the stock MC part num and see what comes up as a reverse cross reference.

FordNut

05-16-2007, 07:09 PM

Anybody around your neighborhood got a Marauder? Put the new alternator on it and I'll bet you get the same problem. Too many of us have been down the aftermarket alternator road with the exact same indications you have described.

Or just get some black tape and cover up the lamp on the instrument panel, as you said it's putting out good voltage.

Badger

05-17-2007, 03:37 AM

I updated the second thread on your original post.
If you have a bad connection/splice your PCM will increase the field to your alternator to attempt to charge the battery. That may be causing your voltage to go high.
My tech finally found the bad splice by hooking up his volt meter and going over the alternator wire inch by inch. When he got to the crimp all it took was a little twist to get the connection to open.
Of course I do recall the smell of the burning plastic of the crimp but I had assumed that the smell was the blower pulley "burning in" the underhood insulation and nothing more.

blackf0rk

05-17-2007, 08:41 AM

Ok, I took all of your advice and just went out to look at my connections. The first connection (going from the alternator to the battery area) Looked like this...

http://www.enspiar.com/images/melty/P5170062.JPG

I thought, hey looks good! And was about to throw in the towel when I remembered there was second splice down the line. To my abhorrent surprise I found this little treat:

http://www.enspiar.com/images/melty/P5170063.JPG

http://www.enspiar.com/images/melty/P5170065.JPG

I going to be replacing the entire length with new wire (obviously) and suitable connections.

SamF

05-17-2007, 09:35 AM

Whoa...was that tucked under the coolant hose? Or sitting up against the motor somewhere?

Yea...you could be on to sumpin ;)

As a side note I tested my voltage with an analog meter sooo, it could be 14.5 or 14.8, I dunno, its under 15. I am going to pick up a digital meter today :D

blackf0rk

05-17-2007, 09:41 AM

It was hiding underneath the coolant hoses but not touching any metal. I think it was just suspended in the air behind stuff. I would like to know what caused so much resistance. The connection is tight, and the wires are in the connector all the way. ??

Bradley G

05-17-2007, 10:42 AM

I think that was my work.
That splice, has been my only issue as well.

blackf0rk

05-17-2007, 01:17 PM

I think that was my work.
That splice, has been my only issue as well.

LOL. Nah - it would've been all our fault since we all worked on it. Anyways, how did your fix yours Brad? Did you solder it?

blackf0rk

05-17-2007, 06:10 PM

UPDATE: I took the wire out, made more suitable connections. Voltage is now staying at 14.3/14.4 volts. Battery light still coming on. Looks like I need to replace the alternator with a Ford one eh? :(

SamF

05-17-2007, 07:10 PM

Bummer. But look at the bright side, at least you found that connection, before it found you on the side of the road ;)

GreekGod

05-17-2007, 08:10 PM

what gnawed at the insulation, Rats?

Badger

05-18-2007, 03:23 AM

I would like to know what caused so much resistance. The connection is tight, and the wires are in the connector all the way. ??
Heat is directly related to (I^2)(R) losses. Any resistance in the cable has a tremendous impact on the amount of heat generated at the point of resistance. Once the heat starts, it's a downward spiral as the heat creates higher resistance which creates more heat and eventually materials fail. For example at an alternator current of 100amps and a bad connection of .05ohms will yield 500 Watts!
Glad you found it. Mine was the crimp closest to the alternator. The only way to prevent this is to soder the crimps completely (or replace the entire wire with a single length).

GreekGod

05-18-2007, 06:32 AM

...if you live in a rust-belt, you will learn. I had a Bronco that someone had repaired an alternator related harness with a very long twisted wrap of the wires. They used a lot of tape in an attempt to seal the splice. Green corrosion had weeped into the whole length of the twisted wires.

Heating and cooling of a splice made with a set screw type connector can also lead to a failure.

magindat

05-18-2007, 06:58 AM

LOL. Nah - it would've been all our fault since we all worked on it. Anyways, how did your fix yours Brad? Did you solder it?

Heat is directly related to (I^2)(R) losses. Any resistance in the cable has a tremendous impact on the amount of heat generated at the point of resistance. Once the heat starts, it's a downward spiral as the heat creates higher resistance which creates more heat and eventually materials fail. For example at an alternator current of 100amps and a bad connection of .05ohms will yield 500 Watts!
Glad you found it. Mine was the crimp closest to the alternator. The only way to prevent this is to soder the crimps completely (or replace the entire wire with a single length).

...if you live in a rust-belt, you will learn. I had a Bronco that someone had repaired an alternator related harness with a very long twisted wrap of the wires. They used a lot of tape in an attempt to seal the splice. Green corrosion had weeped into the whole length of the twisted wires.

Heating and cooling of a splice made with a set screw type connector can also lead to a failure.

DO NOT SOLDER these high-amperage connections. Electrons flow ON THE SURFACE of any given conductor. By soldering, one decreases the surface area of stranded wire. This creates a resistance to flow and generates heat. While the connection will not corrode, nor fail, it will ALWAYS be a point of resistance once the amperage reaches an amount that needs more surface area than the soldered joint has.

In my opinion, replacement of the entire cable length is in order. Properly CRIMPED connections allow the maximum surface contact with wire strands.
I would suggest a 4-AWG high strand count OFC (Oxygen-free-copper) cable with a ring terminal for the alt and a ring terminal to connect to the fuse distribution box. The FDB is connected directly to the bat and such a cable will eliminate the need to connect to the stock bat term. Cut off the existing alt cable from the bat term.

Any reputable stereo shop can make such a cable up with PROPER CRIMP for you for about $20. It may also be possible to find such a cable in a FLAPS.

blackf0rk

05-18-2007, 09:11 AM

Can someone please tell me real quick how many amps our alternators should be putting out. The Ford dealer I went to was having trouble cross referencing the alternator and he said he came up with two a 120 and a 130. ??

blackf0rk

05-18-2007, 11:21 AM

Just went over to Ford again to take a look at the alternator that came in for me. It has the clutch pulley on it, just like this one: http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24756

Is this the correct one!? This is the only one that they cross reference it with, but no one there will take the pulley off for me. Please help I'm pulling my hair out...it's driving me nutso!

GreekGod

05-18-2007, 11:40 AM

...page 414-02-1 of the '03 CV/GM/MM Ford Workshop Manual:

Generator, F6LU-CA, 130 Amp/max

It appears the 2V and 4V 4.6 are are rated the same. The book mentions the one-way clutch (OWC) in the Marauder generator pulley.

"A new OWC pulley and generator/voltage regulator must be installed as an assembly"

"The generator has an internal voltage regulator that is not repaired separately. A new generator and voltage regulator must be installed as an assembly."

This info is why I always buy a shop manual for every car or truck I own.

blackf0rk

05-18-2007, 11:45 AM

Ok, so what does this tell me? That the alternator they have for me, with this clutch pulley is the right one...I just need to change out the pulleys? Or what?

Badger

05-18-2007, 12:00 PM

The clutch pulley was necessary for the 4V motor due to the 6000 RPM limit vs the 4100 RPM limit. The removal tool provided by the Trilogy Kit will remove the one way pulley which allows the alt to freewheel when the shifts occur.
When you reverse the direction of the alt the clutch will simply slip. That's why you need to remove the one way pulley.

Magindat: This is not a 400Hz system. Skin effect????? This is DC.

blackf0rk

05-18-2007, 12:05 PM

Ok, so this IS the right alternator. I just need to get a pulley removal tool and swap pulleys then, right? I don't need to change anything else on this like the regulator or anything?

Marauderjack

05-18-2007, 01:22 PM

What is the real reason for the clutch pulley??:confused: I figured on deceleration it would not pull the engine RPM's down quite as fast.....thus squeezing another .00001543 MPG out of the car??:rolleyes:

If I get a new alternator can I order it with the fixed pulley and if so what will happen??:depress:

Marauderjack:burnout:

blackf0rk

05-18-2007, 01:24 PM

Can someone please reply to my last question? I am waiting for an answer and I need to know soon before the dept. closes. Sorry for being hasty...i just need to know.... :confused::confused: :bigcry:

Zack

05-18-2007, 01:39 PM

Test the 3 wire connector, maybe a wire got pulled out.

SamF

05-18-2007, 02:13 PM

Can someone please reply to my last question? I am waiting for an answer and I need to know soon before the dept. closes. Sorry for being hasty...i just need to know.... :confused::confused: :bigcry:

Yes you need to swap the pulley from your old alt to the new. If you gave the old one back already I can get you the Ford part number for the pulley that came with my Trilogy. I can send you my pulley removal tool so long as you ship it back to me......

blackf0rk

05-18-2007, 03:04 PM

Well, it looks like I found someone with the tool to do it. I will see how it goes on Monday (when the swap will be made). If it doesn't work out, I'll take you (SamF) up on your offer. Thanks everyone!

RF Overlord

05-18-2007, 03:07 PM

See? This is what being "family" is all about...I love this place...:D

MENINBLK

05-18-2007, 03:07 PM

DO NOT SOLDER these high-amperage connections. Electrons flow ON THE SURFACE of any given conductor. By soldering, one decreases the surface area of stranded wire.

Then by your same Theory...

How much surface area does a CRIMP reduce, and if so, why bother using a crimp ?

RF Overlord

05-18-2007, 03:31 PM

MENINBLK:

Aren't you the same one who keeps telling people that spark plugs are supposed to be torqued to 7-11 INCH-pounds? And didn't you tell everyone on mm.us that LEDs "can not" be dimmed?

MENINBLK

05-18-2007, 03:35 PM

MENINBLK:

Aren't you the same one who keeps telling people that spark plugs are supposed to be torqued to 7-11 INCH-pounds? And didn't you tell everyone on mm.us that LEDs "cannot" be dimmed?

Yes, I am.
At least you remembered me...

You guys are good at teaching an old school Electrician new tricks...

RF Overlord

05-18-2007, 03:44 PM

If you mean what you just said, then I apologise for calling you out in public...you just never responded to any of my replies in those threads. :)

GreekGod

05-18-2007, 03:59 PM

DO NOT SOLDER these high-amperage connections. Electrons flow ON THE SURFACE of any given conductor. By soldering, one decreases the surface area of stranded wire. This creates a resistance to flow and generates heat. While the connection will not corrode, nor fail, it will ALWAYS be a point of resistance once the amperage reaches an amount that needs more surface area than the soldered joint has.

In my opinion, replacement of the entire cable length is in order. Properly CRIMPED connections allow the maximum surface contact with wire strands.
I would suggest a 4-AWG high strand count OFC (Oxygen-free-copper) cable with a ring terminal for the alt and a ring terminal to connect to the fuse distribution box. The FDB is connected directly to the bat and such a cable will eliminate the need to connect to the stock bat term. Cut off the existing alt cable from the bat term.

Any reputable stereo shop can make such a cable up with PROPER CRIMP for you for about $20. It may also be possible to find such a cable in a FLAPS.

I must defer to your good advice, but I'm not convinced a soldered splice would be a choke point in a high-draw situation. The splice should be of adequate size/gauge to properly conduct a maximum load. Even some factory wiring is only intended for intermittant loads, such as the battery/starter cables.

I have found crimped splices in factory wire looms. They have always been well sealed with molded rubber and good tape, requiring a sharp knife to reveal the crimp.

Marauderjack

05-19-2007, 03:54 AM

Ahem......I'll ask again!!!!:argue:

Why is the clutch pulley on our cars?????:confused:

magindat

05-19-2007, 09:56 AM

Magindat: This is not a 400Hz system. Skin effect????? This is DC.

Then by your same Theory...

How much surface area does a CRIMP reduce, and if so, why bother using a crimp ?

Hey dudes, 20+ years of high amperage car stereo's and CB linears tells me so. Soldered connections simply do not perform as properly crimped connections do.

Argue after YOU install a 300+ amp draw 0 AWG 8000 watt stereo system! Or set up a car with 4 alternators and 16 batteries or install a 4-pump hydraulic suspension... get the idea?

As for skin effect? Ask a welder why they use high strand count wire for DC stick welding.

I gave my best advice based on experience. Take it or leave it. (But if you take it you'll appreciate it.)

:beer:

Get your alt right and replace the cable entire length as I advised and you'll be set and reliable. Good Luck!!!

Blackened300a

05-19-2007, 10:24 AM

Ahem......I'll ask again!!!!:argue:

Why is the clutch pulley on our cars?????:confused:

Its said to give you another 5 HP at WOT by turning off the field. On S/Ced cars you want full power to the fuel pump to maintain fuel pressure and not causing the slightest chance of a lean condition.
Thats why you replace it with a regular pulley.

Its seems to be a added HP feature since you can still spin over 6000 RPM's on a S/Ced car and have no belt issues with a regular pulley installed.

SamF

05-19-2007, 12:58 PM

Bradley G

05-19-2007, 03:19 PM

I replaced the entire Battery cable assembly and respliced the alternator connection.
I was going to use the Butt splice connector kit, but the stores I went to were sold out, so I used the crimp connector that came with the kit.

LOL. Nah - it would've been all our fault since we all worked on it. Anyways, how did your fix yours Brad? Did you solder it?

RUSTY

05-19-2007, 07:20 PM

I asked an avionic at work today about soldered and crimped connections and all he said was "It's alot easier to screw up a soldered connection than it is to screw up a crimp"

FordNut

05-20-2007, 08:28 PM

Its said to give you another 5 HP at WOT by turning off the field. On S/Ced cars you want full power to the fuel pump to maintain fuel pressure and not causing the slightest chance of a lean condition.
Thats why you replace it with a regular pulley.

Its seems to be a added HP feature since you can still spin over 6000 RPM's on a S/Ced car and have no belt issues with a regular pulley installed.

Actually, that's not entirely correct.

The one-way clutch simply allows the alternator's stator to continue to rotate under engine deceleration, reducing belt chirp and belt dust.

You only have to replace it with the regular pulley with the Trilogy supercharger kit because it is turned in the opposite direction. The one-way clutch would simply slip and not turn the alternator. Note that the other supercharger kits retain the OEM pulley.

Most aftermarket alternators, and I believe even the '04 MM, have regular pulleys instead of the one-way clutch.

The performance increase from switching off the alternator is achieved through the PCM turning off the alternator through the regulator. But this function is dangerous on boosted cars because of a drop in voltage to the fuel pumps causing low fuel pressure and a lean condition. Therefore, the tune for supercharged cars disables this function.

I doubt that the pulley, or even the power wire from the alternator to the battery, are the problem since the voltage goes to 14+ volts when the car is running.

blackf0rk

05-21-2007, 09:13 AM

UPDATE: Ok, so not even this other Ford dealership has seen the odd splined nut on this alternator. Turns out t the tool they said they had they didn't really have. I've msgd someone to let me borrow their pulley removal tool, but is there anyone close to me (Milwaukee) that has one?

Also, can someone give me information about this mysterious pulley tool? Is it a ford specialty? What's the P/N on it? What's it exactly called?

blackf0rk

05-21-2007, 01:37 PM

UPDATE: Found someone in town with the mystery tool (Alternator Shop). They switched the pulleys for me, and now my car is running just fine. Thanks all!

JACook

05-22-2007, 11:43 AM

Hey dudes, 20+ years of high amperage car stereo's and CB linears tells me so. Soldered connections simply do not perform as properly crimped connections do.

Well, dunno 'bout CBers, but Car Audio would hardly qualify as a mythology-free discipline.

There are several good reasons why crimped connections work better than soldered ones, but
none of them have anything to do with reducing the surface area of the wire.

As a practical matter of physics, skin effect does not exist at audio frequencies, let alone DC.
Skin effect is frequency-dependent, and the depth vs frequency is well documented. At 100Hz,
skin depth is about 7.2mm. Just slightly more than .280". (Radius, not diameter.) At 100KHz,
skin depth is still ~ .009", or IOW, a solid 25AWG copper wire will be fully utilized. Any strands
smaller than that will make the wire more flexible, but will not improve conductivity for any
frequencies at or below 100KHz.

Again, this is well documented for anyone who wishes to learn more.

For now, suffice it to say, any 'audio guru' that tells you they can hear the difference between
ultramicrofine litz-wire interconnects vs a piece of copper welding rod is full of... themselves. It's
been proven, and in double-blind tests, by some of the best audio minds (and ears) in the AES.

As for skin effect? Ask a welder why they use high strand count wire for DC stick welding.

Umm... because it's more flexible? Because the finer strand wire will not work-harden and splinter
over years of constant coiling and uncoiling?

Ask yourself this- If current only flows on the outside surface of a conductor, then why aren't
500kcmil AC feeder conductors hollow? Sure would save a buttload of 'unnecessary' copper.

OTOH, a good example of skin effect is the 'waveguide' used in microwave ovens. They call it
a wave guide, but in reality, what it is is a hollow wire formed out of sheetmetal.

I gave my best advice based on experience...

Your experience has taught you well the 'what', but not so much the 'why'.

GreekGod

05-22-2007, 12:42 PM

ahh-Hah!...my favorite quote from Dr. Jacobs book on electronic ignitions goes something like "we can tell you how electricity works, but Nobody understands it!"

Just before Stereo Review magazine went out of business, they used their stereo test system (used for listening evaluations) to compare the newly emerging fancy and expensive twisted/shielded speaker wires and coax cables, to mis-matched, unequal length 16 ga. speaker wires and low-priced RCA jack coax cables.

The golden-eared, blind-folded listeners couldn't tell any difference! That must not have set too well with their full-paged advertizers, because they soon quit publishing.

bawazir

06-19-2010, 06:58 PM

2vmodular

06-20-2010, 06:50 AM

when you go shopping for a new alternator, pay attention to whether the replacement alternator has an overrunning clutch or not.

This happend to me today, light was on on idel, down the line car stop needed jump, :( :( :(

clutched marauder alternator

http://www.p71interceptor.com/alternator/modelnumbers/8314/8314-6.jpg

http://www.p71interceptor.com/alternator/modelnumbers/8314/8314-4.jpg

http://www.p71interceptor.com/alternator/modelnumbers/8314/8314-3.jpg

unclutched grand marquis alternator

http://www.p71interceptor.com/alternator/modelnumbers/8313/8313-6.jpg

http://www.p71interceptor.com/alternator/modelnumbers/8313/8313-2.jpg

http://www.p71interceptor.com/alternator/modelnumbers/8313/8313-4.jpg

here's a link to more pictures:

http://www.p71interceptor.com/alternator/modelnumbers/

bawazir

06-20-2010, 06:58 AM

what is an overrunning clutch??

thanks

2vmodular

06-20-2010, 07:08 AM

the alternator rotor is overdriven and spins fast, at redline it's close to 20,000 rpm. when the engine crankshaft decelerates fast, the alternator rotor inertia wants to keep the rotor spinning much faster than the crankshaft speed. this is where the overrunning clutch comes into play.

the overrunning clutch locks in one direction, but freewheels in the other. it will eliminate belt chirp during hard transmission shifts, decrease belt wear, and possibly keep the accessory belt from jumping off all together.

here's a link to a tutorial on alternator decoupler and overrunning clutch pulleys:

http://www.gatesprograms.com/adp

what is an overrunning clutch??

justbob

06-20-2010, 08:11 AM

He has an Eaton, along with a newly installed Autozone crap alt.

FordNut

06-20-2010, 08:48 AM

He has an Eaton, along with a newly installed Autozone crap alt.

Forgot about that. He ought to contact Zack, Terry, or Dave to get the part number for the correct alternator pulley since the clutched pulley won't work on the Eaton conversion. Of course he could just check your thread but that would be too easy.

Probably a better thing to check is the wiring extensions, if there is a loose connection it could explain the problem.

justbob

06-20-2010, 08:55 AM

He is running a unclutched pulley. I swaped the new alternator pulleys out a two weeks ago.

2vmodular

06-20-2010, 10:30 PM

those clutched pulleys are nice while they last. but when they wear out, they cause the alternator rotor to freewheel on the accessory drive. this results in a "no charge" condition even if the other alternator internals are in good condition.

those solid steel alternator pulleys seem to last forever. along with being much cheaper to purchase, they also free up some space too.

He is running a unclutched pulley. I swaped the new alternator pulleys out a two weeks ago.